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The Sacrifice vs All is Nothing and Aurene's Return [Spoilers]


Daniel Handler.4816

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At the end of The Sacrifice, Vlast crystalizes and explodes. The blast only hurts Balthazar and leaves an intact memory crystal near us with critical information. Canach and Kasmeer consider this to have been intentional. Glint also ~went boom~ broke apart after death and similarly left important knowledge behind. Aurene stayed intact despite knowing that Kralkatorrik can raise corpses.

It is highly likely that Aurene chose not to destroy her body because she intends to come back. Otherwise, she would have left useful stuff for us like the rest of her family.

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While I do agree that Aurene's probably coming back, it's worth noting that she was only two or three years old. Vlast was more than 250; Glint, from what she's said, was in the neighborhood of 3,000. The fact that they were able to leave information, and that they had useful information to leave, doesn't mean either is true of Aurene. Tough to leave a recorded message when you're not even able to speak on your own yet.

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@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:While I do agree that Aurene's probably coming back, it's worth noting that she was only two or three years old. Vlast was more than 250; Glint, from what she's said, was in the neighborhood of 3,000. The fact that they were able to leave information, and that they had useful information to leave, doesn't mean either is true f Aurene. Tough to leave a recorded message when you're not even able to speak on your own yet.

That's true, but I would think avoiding being risen would also be a priority. Edit: Though by your reasoning perhaps she is too young to self-detonate.

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Also, Vlast blew up and was completely destroyed, no body or anything. Glint crystallized but never exploded. The memory crystals must have been left well beforehand. We see her body in tact in the most recent story, and there was no description of an explosion at her death in Edge of Destiny.

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Vlast likely made himself explode to try and hurt or otherwise drive Balthazar away from the Commander, which succeeded. It didn't happen just because he died, he chose to do it.

Also, bit of a different situation. He had been fatally wounded and was dying, Aurene was blasted at point blank range by an Elder Dragon.

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@Narcemus.1348 said:Also, Vlast blew up and was completely destroyed, no body or anything. Glint crystallized but never exploded. The memory crystals must have been left well beforehand. We see her body in tact in the most recent story, and there was no description of an explosion at her death th in Edge of Destiny.

The memory crystal was not present before Vlast exploded. And though Glint may not have exploded her body was not intact. I don't know what part of the story you are referring to but the zephyrites are clear she was not whole.

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Vlast likely destroyed his body to ward off Balthazar, not for the sake of leaving a message. Aurene had no one to ward off that her body exploding could do.

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:The memory crystal was not present before Vlast exploded. And though Glint may not have exploded her body was not intact. I don't know what part of the story you are referring to but the zephyrites are clear she was not whole.

Glint's body didn't explode, not sure where you got that, as her body is definitely intact. Seen at the beginning (and end) of Scion & Champion instance, when you meet Aurene/Caithe in Glint's lair. It's hard to get a good in-game screenshot looking downward, but aside from the wings, her body (a modified version of Aurene's) is fully intact. It's unclear whether she crystallized on death, or if what we see is the crystal beneath the skin that all branded are seen with - her wings make me think that her flesh is decayed and we're seeing the crystalline flesh beneath, and not that her body crystallized on death.

The Zephyrites never comment on the state of her body, merely that they harvested the magic from her body and made the aspect crystals with such.

Based on what the messages contain, Glint likely left those we find in PoF during the time that the group was preparing to face Kralkatorrik, not with her death.

Either way, Aurene not exploding, as proven by Glint's corpse, is not proof that she's returning.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Vlast likely destroyed his body to ward off Balthazar, not for the sake of leaving a message. Aurene had no one to ward off that her body exploding could do.

Tell that to Kasmeer and Canach.

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:The memory crystal was not present before Vlast exploded. And though Glint may not have exploded her body was not intact. I don't know what part of the story you are referring to but the zephyrites are clear she was not whole.

Glint's body didn't explode, not sure where you got that, as
. Seen at the beginning (and end) of Scion & Champion instance, when you meet Aurene/Caithe in Glint's lair. It's hard to get a good in-game screenshot looking downward, but aside from the wings, her body (a modified version of Aurene's) is fully intact. It's unclear whether she crystallized on death, or if what we see is the crystal beneath the skin that all branded are seen with - her wings make me think that her flesh is decayed and we're seeing the crystalline flesh beneath, and not that her body crystallized on death.

Isn't corruption generally outside in so her skin would be the first to change.

The Zephyrites never comment on the state of her body, merely that they harvested the magic from her body and made the aspect crystals with such.

They mentioned holding a portion of her in their hands bestowing movement abilities. Though perhaps those dropped due to decay.

Based on what the messages contain, Glint likely left those we find in PoF during the time that the group was preparing to face Kralkatorrik, not with her death.

Vlasts post-mortem crystal was also recorded before his death.

Either way, Aurene not exploding, as proven by Glint's corpse, is not proof that she's returning.

Glint didn't die before a death domain Kralkatorrik. If she had I think she would do everything in her power to not come back a risen tormenting her former allies.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Vlast likely destroyed his body to ward off Balthazar, not for the sake of leaving a message. Aurene had no one to ward off that her body exploding could do.

Tell that to Kasmeer and Canach.

Not sure what you mean by that. I mean, the dialogue outright states that Balthazar was knocked away by the blast:

Commander: Vlast...sacrificed himself to save me.Lady Kasmeer Meade: Oh, my gods...Commander: When he died, Balthazar was...knocked back by the force. Then he was just...gone.

Isn't corruption generally outside in so her skin would be the first to change.

Not really; corruption alters the entire body at once. If you look at branded humans and charr, their skin is intact but gray, while beneath is crystal. Concept art of branded show this better. Branded creatures lose their hair, and some/all of their skin turns to stone (what doesn't turns grayish and tears), while their blood and muscle turns to crystal. The "insides are crystal while the outsides aren't" is even more clear with ogres and rock dogs, though the standard models lack skin.

They mentioned holding a portion of her in their hands bestowing movement abilities. Though perhaps those dropped due to decay.

If I hold someone's hand, I'm holding a portion of them in my hand. Doesn't mean the hand's dismembered. Plus, it's very clear that the short story has been retconned given "We will take her back with us" is not true anymore.

Vlasts post-mortem crystal was also recorded before his death.

No, they were made with his death, and scattered by the explosion of his body. They even contained his final thoughts, of knowing about the Commander being Aurene's champion, which would be impossible except during the moments before his death.

Glint's memory crystals, however, talk about the upcoming battle with Kralkatorrik, while also talking about Destiny's Edge, indicating that the crystals were made while preparing to fight Kralkatorrik.

Very different.

Glint didn't die before a death domain Kralkatorrik. If she had I think she would do everything in her power to not come back a risen tormenting her former allies.

By that argument, she would have done everything in her power to not come back as a risen made by Zhaitan.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Vlast likely destroyed his body to ward off Balthazar, not for the sake of leaving a message. Aurene had no one to ward off that her body exploding could do.

Tell that to Kasmeer and Canach.

Not sure what you mean by that. I mean, the dialogue outright states that Balthazar was knocked away by the blast:

Canach: He left this message for Aurene.Lady Kasmeer Meade: Or for someone he knew he could trust to get it to her.

Isn't corruption generally outside in so her skin would be the first to change.

Not really; corruption alters the entire body at once. If you look at branded humans and charr, their skin is intact but gray, while beneath is crystal. Concept art of branded show this better. Branded creatures lose their hair, and some/all of their skin turns to stone (what doesn't turns grayish and tears), while their blood and muscle turns to crystal. The "insides are crystal while the outsides aren't" is even more clear with ogres and rock dogs, though the standard models lack skin.

Mordrem and Icebrood are shown to have a gradual inward replacement. And Glint still had skin. Do you mean untransformed flesh that was irradiated by draconic energy is still considered corrupted? In other words no part of the Pale Tree is edible.

They mentioned holding a portion of her in their hands bestowing movement abilities. Though perhaps those dropped due to decay.

If I hold someone's hand, I'm holding a portion of them in my hand. Doesn't mean the hand's dismembered. Plus, it's very clear that the short story has been retconned given
"We will take her back with us"
is not true anymore.

Holding a portion for movement abilities. You couldn't hold a stationary object and perform those skills without ripping one of your's off. And perhaps her wings turned crystalline and snapped off/broke apart. They had to have gotten crystals somehow.

Vlasts post-mortem crystal was also recorded before his death.

No, they were made with his death, and scattered by the explosion of his body. They even contained his final thoughts, of knowing about the Commander being Aurene's champion, which would be impossible except during the moments before his death.Glint's memory crystals, however, talk about the upcoming battle with Kralkatorrik, while also talking about Destiny's Edge, indicating that the crystals were made while preparing to fight Kralkatorrik.

Very different.

Fair play.

Glint didn't die before a death domain Kralkatorrik. If she had I think she would do everything in her power to not come back a risen tormenting her former allies.

By that argument, she would have done everything in her power to not come back as a risen made by Zhaitan.

She had her lair. Had she died before him then yes.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Vlast likely destroyed his body to ward off Balthazar, not for the sake of leaving a message. Aurene had no one to ward off that her body exploding could do.

Tell that to Kasmeer and Canach.

Not sure what you mean by that. I mean, the dialogue outright states that Balthazar was knocked away by the blast:

Canach: He left this message for Aurene.Lady Kasmeer Meade: Or for someone he knew he could trust to get it to her.

Isn't corruption generally outside in so her skin would be the first to change.

Not really; corruption alters the entire body at once. If you look at branded humans and charr, their skin is intact but gray, while beneath is crystal. Concept art of branded show this better. Branded creatures lose their hair, and some/all of their skin turns to stone (what doesn't turns grayish and tears), while their blood and muscle turns to crystal. The "insides are crystal while the outsides aren't" is even more clear with ogres and rock dogs, though the standard models lack skin.

Mordrem and Icebrood are shown to have a gradual inward replacement. And Glint still had skin. Do you mean untransformed flesh that was irradiated by draconic energy is still considered corrupted? In other words no part of the Pale Tree is edible.

They mentioned holding a portion of her in their hands bestowing movement abilities. Though perhaps those dropped due to decay.

If I hold someone's hand, I'm holding a portion of them in my hand. Doesn't mean the hand's dismembered. Plus, it's very clear that the short story has been retconned given
"We will take her back with us"
is not true anymore.

Holding a portion for
movement
abilities. You couldn't hold a stationary object and perform those skills without ripping one of your's off. And perhaps her wings turned crystalline and snapped off/broke apart. They had to have gotten crystals somehow.

Vlasts post-mortem crystal was also recorded before his death.

No, they were made with his death, and scattered by the explosion of his body. They even contained his final thoughts, of knowing about the Commander being Aurene's champion, which would be impossible except during the moments before his death.Glint's memory crystals, however, talk about the upcoming battle with Kralkatorrik, while also talking about Destiny's Edge, indicating that the crystals were made while preparing to fight Kralkatorrik.

Very different.

Fair play.

Glint didn't die before a death domain Kralkatorrik. If she had I think she would do everything in her power to not come back a risen tormenting her former allies.

By that argument, she would have done everything in her power to not come back as a risen made by Zhaitan.

She had her lair. Had she died before him then yes.

Didn’t she die before him? And i don’t see why she would have accounted for Zhaitan anyway. Sure she may know what he’s capable of but it didn’t seem like he really interacted with the part of the world she was in, and she knew he didn’t really need to or knew he thought he didn’t need to.

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@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Vlast likely destroyed his body to ward off Balthazar, not for the sake of leaving a message. Aurene had no one to ward off that her body exploding could do.

Tell that to Kasmeer and Canach.

Not sure what you mean by that. I mean, the dialogue outright states that Balthazar was knocked away by the blast:

Canach: He left this message for Aurene.Lady Kasmeer Meade: Or for someone he knew he could trust to get it to her.

Isn't corruption generally outside in so her skin would be the first to change.

Not really; corruption alters the entire body at once. If you look at branded humans and charr, their skin is intact but gray, while beneath is crystal. Concept art of branded show this better. Branded creatures lose their hair, and some/all of their skin turns to stone (what doesn't turns grayish and tears), while their blood and muscle turns to crystal. The "insides are crystal while the outsides aren't" is even more clear with ogres and rock dogs, though the standard models lack skin.

Mordrem and Icebrood are shown to have a gradual inward replacement. And Glint still had skin. Do you mean untransformed flesh that was irradiated by draconic energy is still considered corrupted? In other words no part of the Pale Tree is edible.

They mentioned holding a portion of her in their hands bestowing movement abilities. Though perhaps those dropped due to decay.

If I hold someone's hand, I'm holding a portion of them in my hand. Doesn't mean the hand's dismembered. Plus, it's very clear that the short story has been retconned given
"We will take her back with us"
is not true anymore.

Holding a portion for
movement
abilities. You couldn't hold a stationary object and perform those skills without ripping one of your's off. And perhaps her wings turned crystalline and snapped off/broke apart. They had to have gotten crystals somehow.

Vlasts post-mortem crystal was also recorded before his death.

No, they were made with his death, and scattered by the explosion of his body. They even contained his final thoughts, of knowing about the Commander being Aurene's champion, which would be impossible except during the moments before his death.Glint's memory crystals, however, talk about the upcoming battle with Kralkatorrik, while also talking about Destiny's Edge, indicating that the crystals were made while preparing to fight Kralkatorrik.

Very different.

Fair play.

Glint didn't die before a death domain Kralkatorrik. If she had I think she would do everything in her power to not come back a risen tormenting her former allies.

By that argument, she would have done everything in her power to not come back as a risen made by Zhaitan.

She had her lair. Had she died before him then yes.

Didn’t she die before him? And i don’t see why she would have accounted for Zhaitan anyway. Sure she may know what he’s capable of but it didn’t seem like he really interacted with the part of the world she was in, and she knew he didn’t really need to or knew he thought he didn’t need to.

In front of. Aurene died right before Kralktorrik eyes but he didn't raise her and she didn't destroy her body like Vlast.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Vlast likely destroyed his body to ward off Balthazar, not for the sake of leaving a message. Aurene had no one to ward off that her body exploding could do.

Tell that to Kasmeer and Canach.

Not sure what you mean by that. I mean, the dialogue outright states that Balthazar was knocked away by the blast:

Canach: He left this message for Aurene.Lady Kasmeer Meade: Or for someone he knew he could trust to get it to her.

I don't see how that's at all contradictory to the fact that Vlast exploded to ward off Balthazar.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Mordrem and Icebrood are shown to have a gradual inward replacement. And Glint still had skin. Do you mean untransformed flesh that was irradiated by draconic energy is still considered corrupted? In other words no part of the Pale Tree is edible.

Not every dragon corruption functions the same, though mordrem corruption isn't working inward from what we've seen / been told, but rather grows outward from its source. In the case of animals being corrupted like the wolf/troll, it begins from a specific point (or points) and spreads from that point as it slowly eats away the flesh. Icebrood begin by being caked in ice, then the skin, then muscles, slowly turn to ice until nothing but ice and bone remain. When living beings are corrupted by Primordus, they're coated with rock and their body slowly liquified. With risen and branded, their entire body is affected at once.

I know Glint still had flesh - while alive. But dead, as we can clearly see in All or Nothing, her whole body is crystalline, but there's no clear show of skin.

And the entire body is indeed corrupted.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Holding a portion for movement abilities. You couldn't hold a stationary object and perform those skills without ripping one of your's off. And perhaps her wings turned crystalline and snapped off/broke apart. They had to have gotten crystals somehow.

You're arguing semantics at this point. No body is stationary if you're strong enough to move it. Regardless, it is stated that the Zephyrites grow crystals using Glint's magic. So breaking off a piece of her body, and using that piece (or those pieces) to grow more sky crystals, was no doubt what they did.

Glint didn't die before a death domain Kralkatorrik. If she had I think she would do everything in her power to not come back a risen tormenting her former allies.

By that argument, she would have done everything in her power to not come back as a risen made by Zhaitan.

She had her lair. Had she died before him then yes.

I don't understand this argument. If Glint would have acted differently because Kralkatorrik could raise the dead, and she knew about other Elder Dragons - she was certainly alive when Zhaitan rose this time - then why wouldn't she act the same as that "differently" due to Zhaitan, who could raise the dead. If she would have to explode her corpse to escape Kralkatorrik's raising ability, she would need to do so to escape Zhaitan's too; by the same notion, if simply escaping to her lair's pocket dimension was enough to escape Zhaitan's ability, then it would be enough to escape Kralkatorrik's newfound ability.

Besides this, exploding has been proven to be inefficient at escaping Kralkatorrik's ability to raise the dead (and thus ineffecient for Zhaitan too) given the fact that the Shatterer exploded and was death-branded.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:In front of. Aurene died right before Kralktorrik eyes but he didn't raise her and she didn't destroy her body like Vlast.

Generally when your brain is impaled, you don't have a few moments to decide whether or not to pull that trigger in your hand to explode the booby-bomb.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:When living beings are corrupted by Primordus, they're coated with rock and their body slowly liquified.

Is this actually a thing? I recall reading something about this way in the past, but I thought the devs advised that Primordus just created minions without corrupting anything.

“Destroyers are forged by Primordus rather than being existing creatures that are corrupted. Some are forged in shapes of existing creatures, but they are hand-made by Primordus. He is a special snowflake (a giant, lava snowflake) in that regard.”

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:When living beings are corrupted by Primordus, they're coated with rock and their body slowly liquified.

Is this actually a thing? I recall reading something about this way in the past, but I thought the devs advised that Primordus just created minions without corrupting anything.

“Destroyers are forged by Primordus rather than being existing creatures that are corrupted. Some are forged in shapes of existing creatures, but they are hand-made by Primordus. He is a special snowflake (a giant, lava snowflake) in that regard.”

It was from an interview with Jeff Grubb, Ree Soesbee, and Scott McGough. So it's in the realm of "psuedocanon" (aka "canon until Anet/the game says otherwise"). 99% of Primordus' minions are indeed just made from rock and lava, but it's heavily implied that the Imbued Shaman from Volcanic Fractal is in fact a destroyer (as the response of how Primordus corrupts the living was not only a response to asking if the grawl was corrupted by Primordus, but the method very similarly mirrors the the grawl shaman's visuals/actions of using rock-coating shields and jumping into lava to become this thing; plus it wields a destroyer bow, the only non-destroyer to wield a destroyer weapon is that one Flame Legion shaman in Iron Marches).

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Vlast likely destroyed his body to ward off Balthazar, not for the sake of leaving a message. Aurene had no one to ward off that her body exploding could do.

Tell that to Kasmeer and Canach.

Not sure what you mean by that. I mean, the dialogue outright states that Balthazar was knocked away by the blast:

Canach: He left this message for Aurene.Lady Kasmeer Meade: Or for someone he knew he could trust to get it to her.

I don't see how that's at all contradictory to the fact that Vlast exploded to ward off Balthazar.

You said it was "not for the sake of leaving a message". The two goals aren't mutually exclusive.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Mordrem and Icebrood are shown to have a gradual inward replacement. And Glint still had skin. Do you mean untransformed flesh that was irradiated by draconic energy is still considered corrupted? In other words no part of the Pale Tree is edible.With risen and branded, their entire body is affected at once.

I know Glint still had flesh - while alive.

So are you saying she wasn't branded when she was alive? Because the whole concept of "at once" does not mean millennia latter after death and decay.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Holding a portion for
movement
abilities. You couldn't hold a stationary object and perform those skills without ripping one of your's off. And perhaps her wings turned crystalline and snapped off/broke apart. They had to have gotten crystals somehow.

You're arguing semantics at this point. No body is stationary if you're strong enough to move it.

Not really. We may disagree on what constitutes a portion, but I doubt there is contention over what it means to hold something. So either someone moved several meters, or launched themselves into the air, with Glint in tow. OR some of her crystals were on the ground and someone of average athletic ability picked one up. Either way a skinless, wingless dragon is hardly intact.

Glint didn't die before a death domain Kralkatorrik. If she had I think she would do everything in her power to not come back a risen tormenting her former allies.

By that argument, she would have done everything in her power to not come back as a risen made by Zhaitan.

She had her lair. Had she died before him then yes.

I don't understand this argument. If Glint would have acted differently because Kralkatorrik could raise the dead, and she knew about other Elder Dragons - she was certainly alive when Zhaitan rose this time - then why wouldn't she act the same as that "differently" due to Zhaitan, who could raise the dead. If she would have to explode her corpse to escape Kralkatorrik's raising ability, she would need to do so to escape Zhaitan's too; by the same notion, if simply escaping to her lair's pocket dimension was enough to escape Zhaitan's ability, then it would be enough to escape Kralkatorrik's newfound ability.

Besides this, exploding has been proven to be inefficient at escaping Kralkatorrik's ability to raise the dead (and thus ineffecient for Zhaitan too) given the fact that the Shatterer exploded and was death-branded.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:In front of. Aurene died right before Kralktorrik eyes but he didn't raise her and she didn't destroy her body like Vlast.

Generally when your brain is impaled, you don't have a few moments to decide whether or not to pull that trigger in your hand to explode the booby-bomb.

It's all a question of timing. Is it quicker to portal away or initiate self-detonation when next to a Elder Dragon's mouth. And can either be done before you are corrupted or die.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:You said it was "not for the sake of leaving a message". The two goals aren't mutually exclusive.

As proven by Glint, crystal dragons don't need to explode their body as you die to leave a message; Vlast could have left a message upon death without exploding.

They're not mutually exclusive, but that doesn't mean Vlast turned his body into a bomb for both reasons.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:So are you saying she wasn't branded when she was alive? Because the whole concept of "at once" does not mean millennia latter after death and decay.

I'm saying that based on her GW1 model, her GW2 concept art, and how other branded look, her body while alive was crystalline beneath her skin, as opposed to flesh and blood (and that this is no doubt the case for Vlast, Aurene, and even Kralkatorrik), and that while her corpse may be fully crystallized, that could be because her skin rotted away in the past 13 years since her death.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Not really. We may disagree on what constitutes a portion, but I doubt there is contention over what it means to hold something. So either someone moved several meters, or launched themselves into the air, with Glint in tow. OR some of her crystals were on the ground and someone of average athletic ability picked one up. Either way a skinless, wingless dragon is hardly intact.

The later is most likely the case, given that she fell a few hundred feet from the air upon death. But the original point is that just because they're holding a portion of her, doesn't mean her body isn't intact.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:You said it was "not for the sake of leaving a message". The two goals aren't mutually exclusive.

As proven by Glint, crystal dragons don't need to explode their body as you die to leave a message; Vlast could have left a message upon death without exploding.

There were enormous green crystals resembling those on his body that appeared after his death. And there were the white crystals he summoned to crystallize. The memory crystal resembled the former. Similarly, Glint's matched herself as well. It is likely, especially given what they contain, they are grown from one's own corruption. This doesn't require explosions, but it probably does require more time than Vlast had, so he used himself.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:So are you saying she wasn't branded when she was alive? Because the whole concept of "at once" does not mean millennia latter after death and decay.

I'm saying that based on her GW1 model, her GW2 concept art, and how other branded look, her body while alive was crystalline beneath her skin, as opposed to flesh and blood (and that this is no doubt the case for Vlast, Aurene, and even Kralkatorrik), and that while her corpse may be fully crystallized, that could be because her skin rotted away in the past 13 years since her death.

Her skin is a part of her body. It's the largest organ. So it's either the whole at once or it's not. Given that something like Jormag's tooth required fire magic but was ostensibly not made of ice I raise the question again. Is something corrupted if it's been permanently infused with draconic energy but hasn't physically transformed?

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Not really. We may disagree on what constitutes a portion, but I doubt there is contention over what it means to hold something. So either someone moved several meters, or launched themselves into the air, with Glint in tow. OR some of her crystals were on the ground and someone of average athletic ability picked one up. Either way a skinless, wingless dragon is hardly intact.

The later is most likely the case, given that she fell a few hundred feet from the air upon death. But the original point is that just because they're holding a portion of her, doesn't mean her body isn't intact.

Do you mean her body was intact enough for reanimation or her body was completely whole?

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@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:There were enormous green crystals resembling those on his body that appeared after his death. And there were the white crystals he summoned to crystallize. The memory crystal resembled the former. Similarly, Glint's matched herself as well. It is likely, especially given what they contain, they are grown from one's own corruption. This doesn't require explosions, but it probably does require more time than Vlast had, so he used himself.

This doesn't mean that Vlast exploded himself for the purpose of making the memory crystals.

Her skin is a part of her body. It's the largest organ. So it's either the whole at once or it's not. Given that something like Jormag's tooth required fire magic but was ostensibly not made of ice I raise the question again. Is something corrupted if it's been permanently infused with draconic energy but hasn't physically transformed?

Skin decays when one dies. How is this hard to understand?

If you look at any branded human or charr, their skin is not crystal nor stone; same is true for Aurene, Vlast, and Glint.

Do you mean her body was intact enough for reanimation or her body was completely whole?

That point about the Zephyrites is unrelated to reanimation that you brought up. The point I was making there is that her body is very much not exploded, as the image I provided showed, despite the Zephyrites "holding a portion of her" (which is of undefined size, I would add).

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:There were enormous green crystals resembling those on his body that appeared after his death. And there were the white crystals he summoned to crystallize. The memory crystal resembled the former. Similarly, Glint's matched herself as well. It is likely, especially given what they contain, they are grown from one's own corruption. This doesn't require explosions, but it probably does require more time than Vlast had, so he used himself.

This doesn't mean that Vlast exploded himself for the purpose of making the memory crystals.

Disseminating would be a better term then.

Her skin is a part of her body. It's the largest organ. So it's either the whole at once or it's not. Given that something like Jormag's tooth required fire magic but was ostensibly not made of ice I raise the question again. Is something corrupted if it's been permanently infused with draconic energy but hasn't physically transformed?

Skin decays when one dies. How is this hard to understand?

"With risen and branded, their entire body is affected at once."Why would a Branded champion have any skin at all? Why wasn't she completely crystal from the get-go?Pick one.

  1. their entire body isn't affected at once.
  2. the fleshy parts of her body are corrupted but untransformed.
  3. the fleshy parts were "affected" but haven't transformed at the same rate.
  4. she was never branded by Kralkatorrrik.
  5. other

Do you mean her body was intact enough for reanimation or her body was completely whole?

That point about the Zephyrites is unrelated to reanimation that you brought up. The point I was making there is that her body is very much
not
exploded, as the image I provided showed, despite the Zephyrites "holding a portion of her" (which is of undefined size, I would add).

Then you have misread why I brought up the Zephyrites.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:Also, Vlast blew up and was completely destroyed, no body or anything. Glint crystallized but never exploded. The memory crystals must have been left well beforehand. We see her body in tact in the most recent story, and there was no description of an explosion at her death th in Edge of Destiny.

The memory crystal was not present before Vlast exploded.
And though Glint may not have exploded her body was not intact
. I don't know what part of the story you are referring to but the zephyrites are clear she was not whole.

I did not reject the possibility that she had not exploded. I simply stated she was not intact.

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@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:You said branding happens to the whole body at once. So why would an ex-Branded champion have any skin at all? Why wasn't she completely crystal from the get-go?Pick one.

  1. branding isn't holistic,
  2. the fleshy parts of her body are corrupted but untransformed.
  3. she was never branded by Kralkatorrrik.

Whoever said that branding causes the entire body becomes crystal?

I certainly didn't. In fact, I repeatedly stated that there are branded with skin just like Vlast, Aurene, and Glint.

Creatures who are branded are fully transformed in one fell swoop. But they don't become 100% crystal. Unlike icebrood and mordrem, and like the risen, the second they're branded, their body ceases to change. Also, the skin is transformed - as you can see, on branded, all skin is gray, unlike normal skin. It just isn't transformed into crystal or stone; their insides, however, are.

Then you have misread why I brought up the Zephyrites.

"[...] the zephyrites are clear she was not whole."

That's pretty clear.

And she's pretty whole unless you count a sliver or a chip to mean no longer be whole. But that's a ridiculous technicality claim. Especially since originally, your claim was:

"Glint also ~went boom~ broke apart after death [...]"

Which has been proven false. It was in reaction to being proven false that you brought up the Zephyrites, as if their psuedocanon / retconned journal mentioning "holding a portion" at all means Glint exploded.

I'm not even sure why you brought up the Zephyrites, since your original post implies that memory crystals must have been formed by Vlast and Glint exploding their body, thus that the crystal comes from their bodies themselves, but there is a very much lack of missing body parts on Glint's corpse.

I did not reject the possibility that she had no exploded. Just that she was not intact.

I think at this point you should define "intact" because we can see from her corpse, that the only thing that doesn't look normal, is the lack of skin. There is no broken off limb or spine or what-have-you. Even the wings, though down to the crystalline bone now, are merely lacking the skin that conjoins it all.

And merely missing skin != not in pieces or with significantly sized broken off parts, as you have been implying.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:You said branding happens to the whole body at once. So why would an ex-Branded champion have any skin at all? Why wasn't she completely crystal from the get-go?Pick one.
  1. branding isn't holistic,
  2. the fleshy parts of her body are corrupted but untransformed.
  3. she was never branded by Kralkatorrrik.

Whoever said that branding causes the entire body becomes crystal?

You didn't. But you did say the whole body was corrupted but still had flesh, and that flesh could decay. Flesh and decay were outside of Kralkatorrik's domains This is why I keep asking you whether an untransformed substance that was irradiated by dragon energy was considered corruption. Branding is more than a color change and normal skin can turn grey through argyria, oxygen deprivation, mummification, covering something grey, etc.

"Glint also ~went boom~ broke apart after death [...]"

Which has been proven false. It was in reaction to being proven false that you brought up the Zephyrites, as if their psuedocanon / retconned journal mentioning "holding a portion" at all means Glint exploded.

You may not like the reasoning but at least get it right. If certain crystals came from the body they would need to be disseminated somehow. Exploding is one way. Shedding them is probably another. The idea of portions was that she did something and they weren't just lopping off parts of her.

I think at this point you should define "intact" because we can see from her corpse, that the only thing that doesn't look normal, is the lack of skin. There is no broken off limb or spine or what-have-you. Even the wings, though down to the crystalline bone now, are merely lacking the skin that conjoins it all.

And merely missing skin != not in pieces or with significantly sized broken off parts, as you have been implying.

Depends. Do you still believe crystal dragons crystallize on death and that Aurene not doing so is some indication she maybe didn't die or her magic was taken by Kralk?

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:You didn't. But you did say the whole body was corrupted but still had flesh, and that flesh could decay. Flesh and decay were outside of Kralkatorrik's domains This is why I keep asking you whether an untransformed substance that was irradiated by dragon energy was considered corruption. Branding is more than a color change and normal skin can turn grey through argyria, oxygen deprivation, mummification, covering something grey, etc.

Everything erodes to time. Doesn't need to be part of some magical domain. Even crystals will erode given enough time, and skin definitely will. There's no magical domain tied to the decay of dead things.

Not sure why you would think in that direction.

A corpse decays over time, until there's nothing but bones left. But branded don't have bones, instead they have crystalline innards.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:You may not like the reasoning but at least get it right. If certain crystals came from the body they would need to be disseminated somehow. Exploding is one way. Shedding them is probably another.

And yet, the corpse has no broken pieces.

Curious.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Do still believe dragons crystallize on death and that Aurene not doing so is some indication she didn't die or her magic was taken?

I never once believed that crystal dragons always crystallize on death. The Shatterer doesn't, despite exploding. I would argue that Glint didn't and instead what flesh she had merely decayed to reveal the crystalline insides (akin to a body who's flesh decayed to the point of just bones).

The whole presumption that crystal dragons crystallize or explode is based on a very, very limited demographic, and all three examples of either two scenarios are exceptional scenarios - the Shatterer explodes because it's shot to pieces with a giant f*cking gun; Vlast crystallizes and explodes likely because he was warding off Balthazar from the Commander and co; Glint's body is likely crystal and fleshless because the flesh decayed over the 13/14 years since her death.

If Aurene's body is left alone for a decade, we may see that there's no skin, just crystal, and people may think she crystallized on death, even though she didn't.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:You didn't. But you did say the whole body was corrupted but still had flesh, and that flesh could decay. Flesh and decay were outside of Kralkatorrik's domains This is why I keep asking you whether an untransformed substance that was irradiated by dragon energy was considered corruption. Branding is more than a color change and normal skin can turn grey through argyria, oxygen deprivation, mummification, covering something grey, etc.

Everything erodes to time. Doesn't need to be part of some magical domain. Even crystals will erode given enough time, and skin definitely will. There's no magical domain tied to the decay of dead things.

There is a domain tied to creating flesh. Gray skin would have to be skin only in appearance not in substance.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:You may not like the reasoning but at least get it right. If certain crystals came from the body they would need to be disseminated somehow. Exploding is one way. Shedding them is probably another.

And yet, the corpse has no broken pieces.

How do you know that? We find with her without skin and several blunted spines. We need a good before and after for this part.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Do still believe dragons crystallize on death and that Aurene not doing so is some indication she didn't die or her magic was taken?

I never once believed that crystal dragons always crystallize on death. The Shatterer doesn't, despite exploding. I would argue that Glint didn't and instead what flesh she had merely decayed to reveal the crystalline insides (akin to a body who's flesh decayed to the point of just bones).

Vs

That's likely why her and Vlast's bodies crystallized, they still had magic as they died. Aurene not crystallizing could mean she isn't dead, or it could mean her magic was taken by Kralkatorrik.

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