Raid team compositions in Snowcrows

[Agrippa.1693]

@"DirtyDan.4759" said:You are not Snowcrows. You don't aim for insane speed clears. Having one condi scourge is good at almost every boss to easily clear adds and apply good barriers and strong condi cleanse with 0 healing power. If you cared about the best team comps you would play with only one healer at every single boss except for Sabetha, MO and Matthias, that's where you go with zero. A good player on a non "meta" pick is better than a bad player on a "meta" pick.

Like I already mentioned in this thread, it's not that I don't know that Necro is a good pick to have in your team. But I'm not talking about good. I created this thread, because it's literally the only profession that has the worst optimal coverage out there in the PvE endgame. And has been in this state for so long now. And again, while we're at it, there's one profession, that's absolutely god tier, and has as well been for so long now!AGAIN: not talking about good, or even really good, I'm talking about optimal (or near optimal, for that matter)! And it's not only SC that draws that conclusion, btw! There are many other sites/guilds/etc. that say the same.

Furthermore, PUGs tend to search for optimal compositions only, and this especially hurts the players out there that main classes that do not have many optimal listings on those above mentioned sites. You still see those occasional threads out there that have bad experiences, just because they choose to play a certain profession!

[Cyninja.2954]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@"DirtyDan.4759" said:You are not Snowcrows. You don't aim for insane speed clears. Having one condi scourge is good at almost every boss to easily clear adds and apply good barriers and strong condi cleanse with 0 healing power. If you cared about the best team comps you would play with only one healer at every single boss except for Sabetha, MO and Matthias, that's where you go with zero. A good player on a non "meta" pick is better than a bad player on a "meta" pick.

Like I already mentioned in this thread, it's not that

I

don't know that Necro is a good pick to have in your team. But I'm not talking about good. I created this thread, because it's literally the only profession that has the worst

optimal

coverage out there in the PvE endgame. And has been in this state for so long now. And again, while we're at it, there's one profession, that's absolutely god tier, and has as well been for so long now!AGAIN: not talking about good, or even really good, I'm talking about optimal (or near optimal, for that matter)! And it's not only SC that draws that conclusion, btw! There are many other sites/guilds/etc. that say the same.

Going by what would be most useful for many raid groups: support necromancer would be optimal for them.

Why? because almost no group plays on the level of snowcrows or top tier statics. Not even 3 hour W1-6 full clear Monday groups.

That has nothing to do with necromancer, and even less so support necromancer viability which was increased even more with the last patch.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Furthermore, PUGs tend to search for optimal compositions only, and this especially hurts the players out there that main classes that do not have many optimal listings on those above mentioned sites. You still see those occasional threads out there that have bad experiences, just because they choose to play a certain profession!

PUGs tend to look for what they know and are used to (and what can be built most easily), usually being weeks or months behind the most current actual meta.

This is mirrored in looking for mirror comp of 2x druid+2x chrono. Which is inferior on most content compared to druid+(literally any other healer)+ 2 chrono or druid+chrono+Renebrand.

To assume PUG groups build for optimal is hilarious in and of its-self.

[Juan.6124]

@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

Furthermore, PUGs tend to search for optimal compositions only

This is just so wrong. Have you ever pugged Xera and MO with 7 power chronos, Alacrity rev, condi druid and condi bs? Have you ever pugged Matthias with 2 condi chronos? Have you ever pugged Gorseval with 6 dh? Have you ever pugged Dhuum with 6 condi revs and single druid heal? No, you haven't. I could ask you about the most optimal group comp at every single boss and your answer would be 'no' every single time.

I lead monday full clear runs and I couldn't care less if you are a dh, scourge, weaver, holo, reaper, herald, chrono, tengu, tempest, deadeye If you know how to play it. Ofc having a daredevil at Matthias and Cairn is a no go. Some bosses favor power (Sloth, KC), some favor condi (Matthias, SH) and I expect my squad to adjust to this. I don't ask for specific specs, I ask for condi or power. If you can play power efficiently at Matthias, do it. I can't. Do the mechanics, do dps, stay alive, kill the boss, job done, I'm happy. Condi mirages though are a seperate issue. If you don't play mirage at Largos you are just trolling. The amount of times people play the most optimal build, have no clue what to do and therefore wipe us is absurd. Even in "experienced runs" when I ask for 30 Qadim KP.

The worst thing in raids for me are druid players. Druids are so used to playing double druid that the moment they are paired with non druid healer you see the low amount of boons they put out. Many don't know that spirits got changed, meaning the spirits don't pulse the boon automatically and that you have to heal your spirits. They camp staff, use completly wrong skills, use right skills at the wrong time. They simply don't know how druid works. Are they playing an optimal pick? Yes. Are they playing optimal? NO!

[Agrippa.1693]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@"DirtyDan.4759" said:You are not Snowcrows. You don't aim for insane speed clears. Having one condi scourge is good at almost every boss to easily clear adds and apply good barriers and strong condi cleanse with 0 healing power. If you cared about the best team comps you would play with only one healer at every single boss except for Sabetha, MO and Matthias, that's where you go with zero. A good player on a non "meta" pick is better than a bad player on a "meta" pick.

Like I already mentioned in this thread, it's not that

I

don't know that Necro is a good pick to have in your team. But I'm not talking about good. I created this thread, because it's literally the only profession that has the worst

optimal

coverage out there in the PvE endgame. And has been in this state for so long now. And again, while we're at it, there's one profession, that's absolutely god tier, and has as well been for so long now!AGAIN: not talking about good, or even really good, I'm talking about optimal (or near optimal, for that matter)! And it's not only SC that draws that conclusion, btw! There are many other sites/guilds/etc. that say the same.

Going by what would be most useful for many raid groups: support necromancer would be optimal for them.

Why? because almost no group plays on the level of snowcrows or top tier statics. Not even 3 hour W1-6 full clear Monday groups.

That has nothing to do with necromancer, and even less so support necromancer viability which was increased even more with the last patch.

Hmmm, I really think you're underselling other support classes here. By saying something is optimal (although you are setting some very loose parameters by starting your sentences with phrases like "many" and "almost", which implies the exact opposite of a real optimal scenario, but hey, let's just ignore that for the sake of discussing the topic at hand), you're pretty much saying those other alternatives aren't!I'm sorry, but then I'd rather go for the expertise from experienced guilds and people that actually have benchmarked, tested, analysed a LOT of builds (next to my own experience, btw. BIG disclaimer: I don't say support Scourges are not good, they're really good even, still not better than some other setups/builds, though!), than some random stranger on the forums, backed up by his own anecdotal stories.Btw: if you really want to look at some interesting Support outliers, look at Scrapper, Tempest (hardly outliers anymore, btw), or one that I think is widely underestimated: Deadeye with quite good 10-man buffing, good CC and still maintaining above average single target DPS (which happens to be more than a Necro can ever even touch ...)!!!And we're only talking about support here, let's not even begin about the most important aspect in this (end)game: DPS. We all know where the Necro stands in that area ...

But let's turn it around, do you deny that there is class-discrimination in the PvE-endgame PUGing community? And if you don't (and I think you won't cause there's no such thing as perfect balance in a game like this, so there will always be class discrimination), which class do you think is most affected by it before you can even enter a raid/fractal? (based on number counts, etc., not emotionally or any other soft arguments). I think you will not come with the mesmer, and I hope you have enough decency to admit it's somewhere around the Revenant, Engineer and Necro professions, definitely if you put in the factor time (hell, you're even allowed to bring in the Ranger then ... I'll let you :D )

[Cyninja.2954]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@"DirtyDan.4759" said:You are not Snowcrows. You don't aim for insane speed clears. Having one condi scourge is good at almost every boss to easily clear adds and apply good barriers and strong condi cleanse with 0 healing power. If you cared about the best team comps you would play with only one healer at every single boss except for Sabetha, MO and Matthias, that's where you go with zero. A good player on a non "meta" pick is better than a bad player on a "meta" pick.

Like I already mentioned in this thread, it's not that

I

don't know that Necro is a good pick to have in your team. But I'm not talking about good. I created this thread, because it's literally the only profession that has the worst

optimal

coverage out there in the PvE endgame. And has been in this state for so long now. And again, while we're at it, there's one profession, that's absolutely god tier, and has as well been for so long now!AGAIN: not talking about good, or even really good, I'm talking about optimal (or near optimal, for that matter)! And it's not only SC that draws that conclusion, btw! There are many other sites/guilds/etc. that say the same.

Going by what would be most useful for many raid groups: support necromancer would be optimal for them.

Why? because almost no group plays on the level of snowcrows or top tier statics. Not even 3 hour W1-6 full clear Monday groups.

That has nothing to do with necromancer, and even less so support necromancer viability which was increased even more with the last patch.

Hmmm, I really think you're underselling

real

support classes here. By saying something

is

optimal (although you are setting some very loose parameters by starting your sentences with phrases like "many" and "almost", which implies the exact opposite of a

real

optimal scenario, but hey, let's just ignore that for the sake of discussing the topic at hand), you're pretty much saying those other alternatives aren't!

I'm going by what I see on a daily basis and what I have experienced along my entire raiding time as both member of a static, member of high performance all clear groups, member of regular PUG groups, member of guild training runs of different levels, etc.

If you think Snowcrows optimal setup is mirrored by PUG groups, you have not raided in ages or at all. It wasn't getting mirrored in the past, and it certainly is not getting mirrored now. What is getting mirrored is, as stated by me, a combination of:

• what has worked in the past
• what is easy to setup on the fly
• what is easy enough to play
• what snowcrows and metabattle tell people to build

The resulting PUG meta group is in no way optimal, or ever has it been optimal.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I'm sorry, but then I'd rather go for the expertise from experienced guilds and people that actually have benchmarked, tested, analysed a LOT of builds (next to my own experience, btw. BIG disclaimer: I don't say support Scourges are not good, they're really good even, still not better than some other setups/builds, though!), than some random stranger on the forums, backed up by his own anecdotal stories.Btw: if you really want to look at some interesting Support outliers, look at Scrapper, Tempest (hardly outliers anymore, btw), or one that I think is widely underestimated: Deadeye with quite good 10-man buffing, good CC and still maintaining above average single target DPS (which happens to be more than a Necro can ever even touch ...)!!!And we're only talking about support here, let's not even begin about the most important aspect in this (end)game: DPS. We all know where the Necro stands in that area

Glad you brought up other experienced guilds, since support scourge is listed on the snowcrows website.

Glad you brought up the other support builds, which are all inferior to support scourge when a druid and chrono are present by simple redundancy.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:But let's turn it around, do you deny that there is class-discrimination in the PvE-endgame PUGing community?

I never said there was no bias against necromancer. I even explained how the bias against necromancers are unfounded in the classes performance.

I clearly explained that the bias against necromancer is based on multiple factors, least of which is his performance.

As far as your other questions, I think chrono is vastly over demanded and represented for the value it currently brings based on class performance alone. Again tying into the other factors I have mentioned earlier.

[Juan.6124]

@OP If you judge a dps build only by its single target benchmark dps and nothing else then there is absolutley no reason to have any discussion with you. I bet you couldn't even state the reason why dh is the best pick for Deimos.

[Nephalem.8921]

@DirtyDan.4759 said:@OP If you judge a dps build only by its single target benchmark dps and nothing else then there is absolutley no reason to have any discussion with you. I bet you couldn't even state the reason why dh is the best pick for Deimos.

I prefer not to die than having the "useful" scourge mass rezzing everyone. It's like old mercy in overwatch. Doesn't do anything. Group dies because of that and he comes with mass rez and feels like he accomplished something.Mirage is a problem in every game mode. Condi renegade got nerfed harder than that while it was meta on 1 boss only. Meanwhile engi is on pre HoT level again. Incredible meh especially with solo healer but he does 25vuln on its own so he is sometimes nice. I play reaper sometimes aswell but it's just not good. Necro utilities are so underpowered in pve its not even funny anymore.30-40s cd on wells that barely do any damage. You are forced to take minions because the tickling minion is higher dps than that useless 40s cd well.You can't be healed while in shroud means low scholar uptime when unlucky. Signet doesn't even work without a trait in shroud.And dps matters in pugs. Dps is so low there that everything is needed most of the time.Holo literally kills himself in low heal setups while having also below average dps. 1H sword is still garbage design since there is NO power offhand. Requires the player to be almost inside the hitbox for good dps.Then they released the ultimate bullshit encounter which is twin largos. EVERYTING feels like trash compared to mirage there.Daredevil would be ok if the stolen skills wouldn't be so op. DH is ok. It falls behind daredevil/DE and weaver when burst phases are too long or gs5 doesn't hit 5 times.Nobody at anet plays engi. The elite weapon is complete garbage. At least Holo is still playable in casual raids. Unplayable in fractals though. Burst cd's are way too long. Boss dies before the Holo lost his heat.

[Juan.6124]

@Nephalem.8921

I prefer not to die than having the "useful" scourge mass rezzing everyone

Heal necro is not a dps build, you can go hybrid with plagedoctor which is really nice though.

Meanwhile engi is on pre HoT level again.

Core engi 2012 is the same as power holo? Sure.

Requires the player to be almost inside the hitbox for good dps.

It's not like isn't true for almost any power dps.

EVERYTING feels like trash compared to mirage there

100% true.

Boss dies before the Holo lost his heat.

That's why you preheat to 75.

[Agrippa.1693]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:I never said there was no bias against necromancer. I even explained how the bias against necromancers are unfounded in the classes performance.

Well, and that's where I disagree with you. It definitely has some foundation!

• Let's start with the most important area in this PvE endgame: maximizing DPS. It literally breaks mechanics. The Necro (with all it's builds/specializations/areas of expertise/etc.) is your worst pick in this matter.
• But happily ever after, you also need support, btw, primarily with the same goal in mind: to maximize the party's DPS: again, not the Necro's area of expertise.
  • It's terrible in providing the right boons to anyone but him/her-self.
  • And the only profession specific buff it can provide is underwhelming at best.
• Then you (don't, but hey, PUGs definitely do) need (some) healing: Again: not Necro's thing ... at all! Except for its barriers (technically protting), but hardly a Necro only thing, and in my (unpopular: I know) opinion not that great at all, next to the fact that it's defensive only (in an almost fully DPS oriented (end)game), it's also limited in many ways.
• Then CC: it's OK, slow (soft-CC), but OK!
• The Necro is literally the most optimal in reviving. And I'm really sorry, but I agree with @"Nephalem.8921" here, it's a one-trick-pony thing, and what's even worse, it's only really "helpful" if you know you're going to fail as a group beforehand!
• And no, I didn't forget about boon-hate: this is a PvE (endgame) forum, not PvP/WvW. It's useless in raids! What about fractals??? ... well: Spellbreaker/Chrono does it better (providing a full package and such, instead of just a gimmick) !

[Cyninja.2954]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:I never said there was no bias against necromancer. I even explained how the bias against necromancers are unfounded in the classes performance.

Well, and that's where I disagree with you. It definitely has

some

foundation!

• Let's start with the most important area in
  this
  PvE endgame: maximizing DPS. It literally breaks mechanics. The Necro (with
  all
  it's builds/specializations/areas of expertise/etc.) is your worst pick in this matter.

Okay, let's roll with the dps argument. There is not 1 dps class in this game which gets to run on every boss if you want to optimize your run. There is dps slots, and for good performance people are required to roll high performance classes on those slots. Meaning you will alternate depending on boss between different classes. If you are not doing that, then a necromancer can perform just as good in the hands of a capable player. Meaning if you perfect the necromancer, you will be of just as much value as the skill level of players who do not switch dps classes.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

• But happily ever after, you also need support, btw, primarily with the same goal in mind: to maximize the party's DPS: again, not the Necro's area of expertise.

There currently is 4 slots in endgame raids which are fixed:Chrono 1Chrono 2Druid 1Bannerslave

Those are the ONLY raid spots which are never required to change. The only slot which comes close is the healer slot 2, which has to alternate between either constantly 2nd healer, or ideally healer and dps. Support scourge is the primary pick here if available. As such support Scourge is closer to a permanent spot than ANY other class outside the 3 mentioned.

On top of that, support Scourge brings epi for some tricky bosses, and with that alone can outperform ANY healer on the 2nd slot.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

• It's terrible in providing the right boons to anyone but him/her-self.
• And the only profession specific buff it can provide is underwhelming at best.

How good then that boons are not needed on the 2nd support slot then isn't it? In the chrono+druid composition the 1st druid provides all the boons the party needs (fury+might first and foremost), the chrono provides the rest.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

• Then you (don't, but hey, PUGs definitely do) need (some) healing: Again: not Necro's thing ... at all! Except for its barriers (technically protting), but hardly a Necro only thing, and in my (unpopular: I know) opinion not that great at all, next to the fact that it's defensive only (in an almost fully DPS oriented (end)game), it's also limited in many ways.

If you think barrier is not the most useful skill on the 2nd heal slot (with proper condi cleanse), then I can't help you.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

• Then CC: it's OK, slow (soft-CC), but OK!

Support scourge has excellent cc. Golem says high.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

• The Necro is literally the most optimal in reviving. And I'm really sorry, but I agree with @"Nephalem.8921" here, it's a one-trick-pony thing, and what's even worse, it's only really "helpful" if you know you're going to fail as a group beforehand!

Yeah, meanwhile it's the healer with the best carry capability for low performance groups and makes life a lot easier in high performance groups. But sure, you can feel how ever you want about the class. Reality is something else though.

EDIT: FYI: full-clear group just now, 2h59m due to blackscreen of death and 2 wipes otherwise we would have been close to 2h30m for W1-6. I was 2nd chrono, our 2nd healer alternated between support scourge, druid and dps (a role, as mentioned in the past, which I too have played but avoid since my druid isn't as strong as other people of this level. I would alternate between dps, support scourge and heal FB). All the dps re-logged appropriate to boss. Not 1 dps got to camp 1 class. They all changed between 4 different dps classes minimum.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

I see that the full Necro profession is now pretty much non-existent in all optimal raid team compositions according to Snowcrows (with the soul exception of that 1 epi spot in Soulless Horror). Is Snowcrows overlooking something, or is the Necro (as a whole) just not good enough to be in any optimal team composition?

Also, not sure what ANet was trying to do with their last balance patch, but the Mesmer (as a whole) is at an all time high with every composition having at least 2 of them (still) and 6 (!!) fights having 7+ mesmers as optimal (although the diversity of builds within the Mesmer profession has improved: at least thumbs up for that!).

Here we go. Necros are mwah nwah mwah. Optimal for most people is to get the kill on the 1st try. Waiting in lfg for minutes just to fail isnt optimal. Necro is fine if the player knows how to use it. You know whats not optimal, a bad DPS or support, but yet they are accepted for what reason, idk. Oh wait i do know, its toxice elitist who arent elite at all but blame everyone else. Stop trying to be snowcrows because if you were you would be in that guild. Thier guides should be a tool to help you on your journey and is not by anymeans, raid LAW. they even say that as true professionals know this.

[Henry.5713]

Their compositions are optimal (or close to optimal) for all of those wishing to achieve very fast kills on each of the bosses with good individual player performances. Nothing more and nothing less.Stacks of necromancers (5-6 of them and no need to have one as support) are easily able to beat all wings in three hours when played at a high level while being more forgiving than your usual META strategies. You won't be setting individual boss kill records but your overall full-clear time will be decent and pretty consistent. One could even claim they might be in the need of further nerfs even after Epibounce was cut down depending on the point of view.

[DutchRiders.2871]

@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

I see that the full Necro profession is now pretty much non-existent in all optimal raid team compositions according to Snowcrows (with the soul exception of that 1 epi spot in Soulless Horror). Is Snowcrows overlooking something, or is the Necro (as a whole) just not good enough to be in any optimal team composition?

Also, not sure what ANet was trying to do with their last balance patch, but the Mesmer (as a whole) is at an all time high with every composition having at least 2 of them (still) and 6 (!!) fights having 7+ mesmers as optimal (although the diversity of builds within the Mesmer profession has improved: at least thumbs up for that!).

Mesmer and guardian are a bit busted and it's easy to see why, they bring nice dps with alot of utility. So much utility that you can drop decicated support roles for more dps.

Personally I think only condi mirrage needs the real nerf hammer. For your average run everything is kinda fine. Although dps specs with zero utility could get a little boost I guess.