What is the current state of warrior in PvE?

[mrauls.6519]

Is it a desired DPS in fractals and raids? No more BS right?

[Linken.6345]

your still a bs just not might stacker mate

[TexZero.7910]

status = exists

[Safandula.8723]

Bs? What is that? What is it for?

[dusanyu.4057]

banner bot

[Nash.2681]

@dusanyu.4057 said:banner botBS might also refer to the Berserker Elite Spec, but usually it's short for banner slave.

[stone cold.8609]

Even with the recent changes to banners, for high end PvE you are only really wanted because of the buffs that your banners bring. Hence, warriors are expected to equip them and use them on cool down. You can take either a core power build (axe/axe + mace/mace) for ok damage and good cc, or a condition berserker elite build (sw/torch + LB) with a bit better damage over longer fights and good cc.

I'm not certain if it is still meta, but when I was running T4s a lot power core BS warriors were desired in the group.

[Cyninja.2954]

Simply put, bannerslave remains meta because the warrior:

• does decent enough damage (not top tier, but decent except on condi)
• brings banners which increase group/raid damage
• brings a lot of cc which frees up cc requirements on other classes
• banner uptime can/must be manage by only the warrior (resulting in slightly better repositioning ability if unorganized)

Banners overall increase group/raid damage less than before, thus not taking a bannerslave is less of a penalty. For fractals, not taking a bs is viable enough if you can manage cc, will be a dps loss in a high performance group though.

[Zenith.7301]

It's the most broken and irreplaceable offensive support spec in instanced PvE. You can replace a druid, you can replace a chrono, you cannot replace a BS warrior and the warrior does significantly more personal DPS than chrono and druid to boot.

The warrior is a walking stat totem for his group and provides a ton of other perks while still doing the damage of a power reaper/herald but with far superior utility.

[thrag.9740]

@Zenith.7301 said:It's the most broken and irreplaceable offensive support spec in instanced PvE. You can replace a druid, you can replace a chrono, you cannot replace a BS warrior and the warrior does significantly more personal DPS than chrono and druid to boot.

If you consider druid replaceable, then I don't understand how you don't consider warrior replaceable. If you don't consider spirits+spotter+GOE mandatory, why do you consider banners mandatory?

[Genuinetheo.6591]

@stone cold.8609 said:Even with the recent changes to banners, for high end PvE you are only really wanted because of the buffs that your banners bring. Hence, warriors are expected to equip them and use them on cool down. You can take either a core power build (axe/axe + mace/mace) for ok damage and good cc, or a condition berserker elite build (sw/torch + LB) with a bit better damage over longer fights and good cc.

I'm not certain if it is still meta, but when I was running T4s a lot power core BS warriors were desired in the group.

Moreso over condition warriors because fights generally don't last very long. Conditions have this ramp up time that I believe simply takes too long to outclass Power DPS for a Warrior in fractals. You might even make the fractal take longer to complete running a condition Warrior.

[Safandula.8723]

@thrag.9740 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:It's the most broken and irreplaceable offensive support spec in instanced PvE. You can replace a druid, you can replace a chrono, you cannot replace a BS warrior and the warrior does significantly more personal DPS than chrono and druid to boot.

If you consider druid replaceable, then I don't understand how you don't consider warrior replaceable. If you don't consider spirits+spotter+GOE mandatory, why do you consider banners mandatory?

Cu bs does shiton of cc, and decent dps. Druids spirits can be taken by sb, only big lose is glyph of empowerment. But alternative to chrono druid are rev + FB which Btoh does way more dmg. I still think it's not worth to swap out 1 druid cuz it's boosted, but bs is way more

[Zenith.7301]

@thrag.9740 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:It's the most broken and irreplaceable offensive support spec in instanced PvE. You can replace a druid, you can replace a chrono, you cannot replace a BS warrior and the warrior does significantly more personal DPS than chrono and druid to boot.

If you consider druid replaceable, then I don't understand how you don't consider warrior replaceable. If you don't consider spirits+spotter+GOE mandatory, why do you consider banners mandatory?

Spirits are not druid exclusive, a soulbeast can bring those. and FB+renegade are a superior group DPS comp by miles even figuring in spirits.

There is no alternative to BS warrior, that simple. No one can replace them.

In fractals this is even more evident because cyclone axe+eviscerate burst on breakbar bonus makes banner warrior burst crazy and only rivaled by elementalist and guardian/holo burst.

[thrag.9740]

@Zenith.7301 said:

@thrag.9740 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:It's the most broken and irreplaceable offensive support spec in instanced PvE. You can replace a druid, you can replace a chrono, you cannot replace a BS warrior and the warrior does significantly more personal DPS than chrono and druid to boot.

If you consider druid replaceable, then I don't understand how you don't consider warrior replaceable. If you don't consider spirits+spotter+GOE mandatory, why do you consider banners mandatory?

Spirits are not druid exclusive, a soulbeast can bring those

What? Banners can be used by berserker, core warrior, and spellbreaker, exact same setup as spirits.

[Linken.6345]

@thrag.9740 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

@thrag.9740 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:It's the most broken and irreplaceable offensive support spec in instanced PvE. You can replace a druid, you can replace a chrono, you cannot replace a BS warrior and the warrior does significantly more personal DPS than chrono and druid to boot.

If you consider druid replaceable, then I don't understand how you don't consider warrior replaceable. If you don't consider spirits+spotter+GOE mandatory, why do you consider banners mandatory?

Spirits are not druid exclusive, a soulbeast can bring those

What? Banners can be used by berserker, core warrior, and spellbreaker, exact same setup as spirits.

Exactly hence why warrior cant be replaced, the entier point of this whole thread.

[Zenith.7301]

@thrag.9740 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

@thrag.9740 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:It's the most broken and irreplaceable offensive support spec in instanced PvE. You can replace a druid, you can replace a chrono, you cannot replace a BS warrior and the warrior does significantly more personal DPS than chrono and druid to boot.

If you consider druid replaceable, then I don't understand how you don't consider warrior replaceable. If you don't consider spirits+spotter+GOE mandatory, why do you consider banners mandatory?

Spirits are not druid exclusive, a soulbeast can bring those

What? Banners can be used by berserker, core warrior, and spellbreaker, exact same setup as spirits.

It's almost as if you overlooked the fact that while you can replace a healer spot with another one and keep druid buffs, reducing the value of druid, there is no replacement for a banner warrior as all those fill a support DPS slot.

And what's more, the team comp excluding a druid in favor of FB+Ren provides a greater DPS boost than the druid+chrono comp but there is no comp in which replacing the banner warrior yields similar or more DPS.

[thrag.9740]

@Linken.6345 said:Exactly hence why warrior cant be replaced, the entier point of this whole thread.Ok, so your point is that druid can be replaced, but warrior can't. But your only saying to replace druid with another ranger build. At the end of the day your still locked into bringing a ranger with spirits just like your locked into bringing a warrior with banners. The only difference is, you don't consider warrior's healer builds viable .

@Zenith.7301 said:It's almost as if you overlooked the fact that while you can replace a healer spot with another one and keep druid buffs, reducing the value of druid, there is no replacement for a banner warrior as all those fill a support DPS slot.

So hold on, your happy that we can replace one ranger healer build (with spirits) with another ranger dps build (with spirits). But your unhappy we don't have that option for warrior and their banners. So if warrior had a viable healer build which also brought the 2 banners, you would be happy with that?

[Zenith.7301]

@thrag.9740 said:

@Linken.6345 said:Exactly hence why warrior cant be replaced, the entier point of this whole thread.Ok, so your point is that druid can be replaced, but warrior can't. But your only saying to replace druid with another ranger build. At the end of the day your still locked into bringing a ranger with spirits just like your locked into bringing a warrior with banners. The only difference is, you don't consider warrior's healer builds viable .

@Zenith.7301 said:It's almost as if you overlooked the fact that while you can replace a healer spot with another one and keep druid buffs, reducing the value of druid, there is no replacement for a banner warrior as all those fill a support DPS slot.

So hold on, your happy that we can replace one ranger healer build (with spirits) with another ranger dps build (with spirits). But your unhappy we don't have that option for warrior and their banners. So if warrior had a viable healer build which also brought the 2 banners, you would be happy with that?

Partially, because it would create further raid comp flexibility by allowing a group to bring something other than druid and the banner warrior's slot would be opened up for dps.

But the goal would be to introduce an alternative to banners altogether, that is a build that provided comparable offensive steroids to a group while doing the same or better DPS than banner warrior does (just as FB+Renegade offer similar healing and equal or better dps as an alternative).

But there is no spec in this game that comes even remotely close to raid DPS contribution as banner warrior does.

[lare.5129]

nowadays very hard find ps war for cms party whit no heal setup.At all ps war non exists on charts.Also condi bs it not welcome for cms too.Mostly user pdps + banner core war, and who ready change traits to spb if pain and gain insta come.

[thrag.9740]

@"Zenith.7301" said

But there is no spec in this game that comes even remotely close to raid DPS contribution as banner warrior does.TLDR: No, Druid contributes more because 25 might is a huge effect.

I find this claim highly dubious, I think druid probably contributes the most raid dps. So lets test it. As a first calcuation, I am going to approximate the smaller and more complicated effects: how much dps warrior/druid contribute to chrono and how much dps warrior/druid contributes to druid/warrior. First we need a consistent way to measure the influence of the buffs. For this, Im going to use a standard staff daredevil build. I will just auto attack, that way my own ability to perform the rotation does not come into play. Now, since a large part of the warriors dps contribution comes from its own personal dps, we will need to use this modifier to scale the benchmarks we make here, and then add all the dps contributions together.

SC's staff daredevil benchmark: 34,010 (https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/thief/daredevil/power/)Same build and buffs (technically the video uses all boons rather than standard 7, but it doesn't matter for theif) but only auto attacking: 22489log : (https://dps.report/MD3y-20190402-134843_golem)rotation_scaler = 1.5122

Now, an additional complexity to all this is that spotter and empower allies are 5 man buffs. So we need to get the numbers for the players outside of the warrior/druid parties. Now, whoever is in the warriors party is not in the druids, and vice versa. So we perform the following tests:

In druids party (warrior in squad)same test with spotter/spirits/banners/25 might without EA: 22016scaled by rotation_scaler: 33293log: (https://dps.report/WKIU-20190402-141820_golem)

in warriors party (druid in squad)same test with EA/spirits/banners/25 might without spotter: 22096scaled by rotation_scaler: 33413log: (https://dps.report/uhL8-20190402-142449_golem)

Ok, so now we have the baseline dps that our thief can hit on golem in either the warrior or the druid party. Now, lets see what happens if there is no warrior:

In druids party (no warrior in squad)same test with spotter/spirits/25 might without EA/banners: 20202scaled by rotation_scaler: 30549log:(https://dps.report/8vR5-20190402-143333_golem)

Not in druids party(no warrior in squad)same test with spirits/25 might without spotter/EA/banners: 19291scaled by rotation_scaler: 29171log(https://dps.report/8vs5-20190402-143856_golem)

Ok so now lets calculate the warriors dps contribution (again approximating the dps contributed to chronos and the druid):warrior dps (sc benchmark): 25427 (note condi warrior doesn't bring EA, so I'm using the power warrior benchmark + EA)3 dps in party: (33413-29171) 3 = 127263 dps out of party: (33293-30549)3 = 82322 chronos: 1 is in party, 1 is out. A full off chrono can do about half of what a dps does. If we assume the tank is tanking with low toughness, then I think its fair to approximate this contribution as being equal to a single dps players contribution, averaged between the 2 parties, giving us: 3493.

1 druid (typically a healer): very close to 0, so I'm going to approximate it as 0.

Total warrior dps contribution: 49878

Keep in mind, this is a fully maxed dps squad. It is significantly above the dps of a single daredevil which we have as 34010

Ok now we have to repeat this process for druid buffs (spirits,spotter and 25 might).

In warriors party (no druid in squad)same test with EA/banners no spotter/spirits/25 might:16839scaled by rotation_scaler: 25463log:( https://dps.report/5bLI-20190402-151603_golem)

Not in warriors party (no druid in squad)same test with banners no spotter/EA/Spirits/25 might: 16321scaled by rotation_scaler: 24680log(https://dps.report/8xV3-20190402-152127_golem)

Ok so now lets calculate the druids dps contribution (again approximating the dps contributed to chronos and the warrior):Druid dps (typically a healer): very close to 0, so I’m going to approximate it as 0.3 dps in party: (33293 – 24680)3 = 258393 dps out of party: (33413 -25463)3 = 238502 chronos: 1 is in party, 1 is out. A full off chrono can do about half of what a dps does. If we assume the tank is tanking with low toughness, then I think its fair to approximate this contribution as being equal to a single dps players contribution, averaged between the 2 parties, giving us: 8281

1 warrior: Remember we are using power warrior in this comparison. Using the same method as the druid we use dps out of party (dps warrior/dps thief) = 7950 (25427/34010) = 5943.

Total druid dps contribution: 63913Keep in mind, this is a fully maxed dps squad. It is significantly above the dps of a single daredevil which we have as 34010

Summary: In a 10 man squad, Druid contributes more dps than warrior. This is largely because druid can upkeep 25 might on 10 people. Your claim was false.

[Zenith.7301]

Why are you attributing 25 might stacking solely to druid when PS warrior can do the same and still bring banners? An ele with fire field alone is providing 12 might stacks permanently and fury throughout and those 25 stacks can also be provided by the competitive FB/Ren comp, which makes it not a druid exclusive utility....

You can have no druid and have 25 might stacks on everyone at 100% uptime, in fact the FB/Ren comp is even superior to it.

[thrag.9740]

@"Zenith.7301" said:Why are you attributing 25 might stacking solely to druid when PS warrior can do the same and still bring banners? An ele with fire field alone is providing 12 might stacks permanently and fury throughout and those 25 stacks can also be provided by the competitive FB/Ren comp, which makes it not a druid exclusive utility....

You can have no druid and have 25 might stacks on everyone at 100% uptime, in fact the FB/Ren comp is even superior to it.

It doesn't matter if might is druid exclusive. Might has to come from somewhere, and currently it comes from druid in a standard comp. Can druid provide 10 people 25 might? Yes it can. Can warrior? No it can not, it can definitely provide it to 5 people, the only way warrior even has a chance of getting 25 on 10 people is some comp like 4-5-1, and then the warrior is going to have terrible boon uptime.

Your words were, "But there is no spec in this game that comes even remotely close to raid DPS contribution as banner warrior does.". And yet, that isn't true. What is true, is that you keep making statements without a shred of evidence. First you said warrior was the biggest dps contributor, which was wildly inaccurate. Then you told us that Ren/FB is the better comp, but where are your numbers? Or some record videos? Any evidence at all to back up your claims?

[Safandula.8723]

@thrag.9740 said:

@"Zenith.7301" said:Why are you attributing 25 might stacking solely to druid when PS warrior can do the same and still bring banners? An ele with fire field alone is providing 12 might stacks permanently and fury throughout and those 25 stacks can also be provided by the competitive FB/Ren comp, which makes it not a druid exclusive utility....

You can have no druid and have 25 might stacks on everyone at 100% uptime, in fact the FB/Ren comp is even superior to it.

It doesn't matter if might is druid exclusive. Might has to come from somewhere, and currently it comes from druid in a standard comp. Can druid provide 10 people 25 might? Yes it can. Can warrior? No it can not, it can definitely provide it to 5 people, the only way warrior even has a chance of getting 25 on 10 people is some comp like 4-5-1, and then the warrior is going to have terrible boon uptime.

Your words were, "But there is no spec in this game that comes even remotely close to raid DPS contribution as banner warrior does.". And yet, that isn't true. What is true, is that you keep making statements without a shred of evidence. First you said warrior was the biggest dps contributor, which was wildly inaccurate. Then you told us that Ren/FB is the better comp, but where are your numbers? Or some record videos? Any evidence at all to back up your claims?

Tempest can provide 25 might 10 man. These are the end times for MUST Be a druid in squad. It's still to good thanks to utilities to pass on, but it's not mandatory anymore. For example chrono, tempest, fb, rev. Spirits can be bring by sb easily, so no need to play this crap spec

[melandru.3876]

harrier rev, power quickbrand, power bs, power soulbeast, power chrono

^ my to-gp set-up that provides pretty much antyhing you need

still mesmer utility in skips/portalsstill a spirit with soulbeast, with minimal dps lossstill 25 mightstill prot upkeepstill quickness/alacrity/fury

reflects, resistance, aegis, stability on demand

dps-wise alot higher then druid+chrono

[thrag.9740]

Again we have more claims about what is meta, without evidence. If these new comps are so much better, where are the record videos? Surely there should be a record video on MO at least?

I'm not saying they aren't better, they may very well be. But until you actually post some logs or videos or at least a theoretical breakdown, I think your being hasty to claim it is the new meta.