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Living World Access To New Players


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I agree with the OP. The story stuff should be clearer. That said, I paid more than 100 to play all of Guild Wars 1 and this is all less than that. I know it's not price, but considering you're getting all the content that's ever come out (except Season 1 obviously) for a relatively low price for an MMO, it's not that bad.

Remember, Guild Wars 1 was not an MMO. It was a lobby game. A CoRPG according to Anet. It was created on a much smaller scale, with a much smaller staff. It was linear and pathed. You couldn't enter the water. Prophecies came with 203 quests and 25 missions. The core game came with 50 missions at least per race, and over 1500 dynamic events, not including hearts.

At the end of the day, the price for what you're getting even if you have to buy it all is worth it.

That said, the confusion and lack of easily available information or even a pack that contains ALL the content is pretty bad.

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I guess it is all about playstyle and more but when I play a game a wanna get the most out of the game. By that I mean I start by playing the main story, while doing the main story I also do map completion when I get to a new map through the story. I also do not usually but crafting mats on TP and I do not waste my gold on fluff when I have a goal to get gold to buy. At the time I would reach the end of the main story I would have enough Gold to atleast buy season 2. It's sad though that you didnt get better information.

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@Turin.6921 said:

And it is actually pretty attainable: currently the exchange is like 37 gold for 100 gems. Thats about two days of gold farming (if you know what to do) per episode. And if you buy the pack its a bit less. By the time you finish HoT you should pretty much know everything you need to farm gold efficiently.

Expecting new players to gold farm after playing content so they can go back and play content to give the content they've just played context is a ludicrously inelegant solution

Not really if gold farming includes actually playing the content you already have access to.

It took me a year before I ventured into gold-farming, and that, really, only because I moved and had zero income coming in so spending anything then was frivolous.

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@"trev.1045" said:Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

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@Ashen.2907 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:In most games, DLC’s are typically not included unless explicitly stated.

Agreed.

On the other hand the main story of the game is largely dependent on the LS to make any kind of sense. I think that the current system would be more palatable if the LS DLC were side stories and the like rather than gates to the main story in a story driven medium.

Actually, the main story of the game is included in vanilla. Expansions are after the fact stories, not part of the main game, hence "Expansion". Generally speaking, the LSs are closer to prologues to their corresponding expansions, barring the current seasons, so far as we know right now.

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:In most games, DLC’s are typically not included unless explicitly stated.

Agreed.

On the other hand the main story of the game is largely dependent on the LS to make any kind of sense. I think that the current system would be more palatable if the LS DLC were side stories and the like rather than gates to the main story in a story driven medium.

Actually, the main story of the game is included in vanilla. Expansions are after the fact stories, not part of the main game, hence "Expansion". Generally speaking, the LSs are closer to prologues to their corresponding expansions, barring the current seasons, so far as we know right now.

Not sure that I can agree. The main story of GW2 is the battle against the Dragons. This battle continues in the expansions, picking up where the first chapter left off.

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@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:You can buy the gems with gold.

What you might consider doing is buying one episode with gold (or cash if you’re in a hurry and don’t want to wait while you’re farming gold), play through it while saving up gold then when you’re done with it buy the next episode with gold. Rinse and repeat.

That will take a new player a looong time to get that much gold. Maybe you vets dont realize it because you have amassed large sums over the years! Not to mention the exchange rate is absolute kitten. I mean some people cant play all day either they cant acquire that amount of gold in a reasonable time. I play in the evenings and have played for 4 months, in that time i have gained around 300 gold, yes time is a factor, not to mention the cost to level crafting and craft gear. That eats what profits you make. So you can spend your playtime grinding for gold and selling if you are a new player, and it will still take a long while to get enough gold to buy the LW series , which imo should be part of the gameplay.

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@Ashen.2907 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:In most games, DLC’s are typically not included unless explicitly stated.

Agreed.

On the other hand the main story of the game is largely dependent on the LS to make any kind of sense. I think that the current system would be more palatable if the LS DLC were side stories and the like rather than gates to the main story in a story driven medium.

Actually, the main story of the game is included in vanilla. Expansions are after the fact stories, not part of the main game, hence "Expansion". Generally speaking, the LSs are closer to prologues to their corresponding expansions, barring the current seasons, so far as we know right now.

Not sure that I can agree. The main story of GW2 is the battle against the Dragons. This battle continues in the expansions, picking up where the first chapter left off.

Maybe. However, for what we started with, and I don't want to get too spoilery, we wrapped it up quite nicely in the vanilla game. From 30 to cap, and beyond a bit, we had a steady stream of personal story content that even had a keg party when it was over...

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@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

How would you change things, without hurting ANet's bottom line?

  • Charge more for the expansions?
  • Charge veterans for the Living World too?
  • Charge a subscription and include the episode as part of that?

There aren't all that many alternatives and each alienates someone.

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

How would you change things, without hurting ANet's bottom line?
  • Charge more for the expansions?
  • Charge veterans for the Living World too?
  • Charge a subscription and include the episode as part of that?

There aren't all that many alternatives and each alienates someone.

I admit I prefer looking at things from the consumer side, so Anet's bottom line wasn't my main concern. It's an interesting question though, if I was in their place I'd either make it free for all or make them paid DLC for all. And if I went with the latter, I'd make LS more like spin-off side stories so players without them wouldn't be left with narrative gaps. There is plenty of GW lore to make story that is detached from the core narrative and still make it compelling.

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@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@"trev.1045" said:Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

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@Tiviana.2650 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:You can buy the gems with gold.

What you might consider doing is buying one episode with gold (or cash if you’re in a hurry and don’t want to wait while you’re farming gold), play through it while saving up gold then when you’re done with it buy the next episode with gold. Rinse and repeat.

That will take a new player a looong time to get that much gold. Maybe you vets dont realize it because you have amassed large sums over the years! Not to mention the exchange rate is absolute kitten. I mean some people cant play all day either they cant acquire that amount of gold in a reasonable time. I play in the evenings and have played for 4 months, in that time i have gained around 300 gold, yes time is a factor, not to mention the cost to level crafting and craft gear. That eats what profits you make. So you can spend your playtime grinding for gold and selling if you are a new player, and it will still take a long while to get enough gold to buy the LW series , which imo should be part of the gameplay.

You underestimate the amount of gold a new account can get in one month if they play regularly and focus a bit on making gold.

I was suggesting buying one episode at a time with gold bought gems where each episode is 200 gems. If you do your daily each day for a month, that’s 60 gold. Currently 60 gold buys 170 gems. That leaves 30 gems, currently about 11 gold. Take your char on a farming run for just one day to the mid to upper level maps and harvest everything you can. Turn the logs into planks and the ore into ingots and sell it on the trading post. You’ll have the 11 gold and more.

This is a farming route I used to do, core maps only. It has waypoints and indicates what to get there, plus some directions. (It’s a bit cryptic since I made it for my own use). If you don’t have a personal guild make one. I think it’s a gold. Copy paste it on the guild announcement and set your chat to have it post in that guild chat. You can click on the waypoints in chat and if you have the waypoint discovered you can use it.

 

 

  1. [&BOQAAAA=]spinach farm west
  2. [&BKgAAAA=] East. seasoned wood
  3. [&BLIAAAA=] East to hero point. seasoned wood
  4. [&BAECAAA=] area around wp. hardwood, iron, herbs
  5. [&BMcDAAA=] potato farm
  6. [&BGICAAA=] SE To WP. seasoned wood
  7. [&BFoCAAA=] N(Iron) S(Wood)
  8. [&BFwCAAA=] SE to POI. seasoned wood
  9. [&BEwCAAA=] N>NE>E to wp. hardwood, platinum
  10. [&BMwBAAA=] SW>S>S to WP. hardwood, platinum
  11. [&BMQBAAA=] S. hardwood, platinum
  12. [&BMgCAAA=] hardwood, platinum
  13. [&BNQCAAA=] NW
  14. [&BFgGAAA=] south. t5 mats, mature herbs
  15. [&BKYCAAA=] west. t5/t6 nodes
  16. [&BKwCAAA=] south. t5/t6 nodes
  17. [&BEIAAAA=] potato farm
  18. [&BF4AAAA=] north. 2 chests behind Skritt King
  19. [&BGMAAAA=] iron nodes

Maybe not the most exciting thing you can do but anyone can do it and it brings home the bacon. If you don’t like farming there are other ways to make gold. Make a thread on players helping players and ask about how to make gold in core Tyria.

Edit. When my account was 4 months old I didn’t even remotely have 300 gold. lol.

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@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

How would you change things, without hurting ANet's bottom line?
  • Charge more for the expansions?
  • Charge veterans for the Living World too?
  • Charge a subscription and include the episode as part of that?

There aren't all that many alternatives and each alienates someone.

I admit I prefer looking at things from the consumer side, so Anet's bottom line wasn't my main concern. It's an interesting question though, if I was in their place I'd either make it free for all or make them paid DLC for all.
And if I went with the latter, I'd make LS more like spin-off side stories so players without them wouldn't be left with narrative gaps. There is plenty of GW lore to make story that is detached from the core narrative and still make it compelling.

I would not mind them taking this approach to story structure.

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I remember how I felt when I discovered I couldn't just continue on into S2 without first buying gems, but at the end of the day, my account is just over a year old, and according to GW2 efficiency I've logged 2466 hours, and all for the cost of 2 expansions and LS S3 (I didn't end up buying S2). I'd say I got good value for my money.

That said though, this is a problem that will grow worse as more chapters are released. I was here for S4, so I didn't have to pay for any of those episodes. A new player today would have to buy S2, S3 and 4 chapters of S4.

I strongly suspect at some point they will roll the LS chapters into the expansions. That's exactly what WoW did. At one point, in order to play the current game, you had to buy like 4 expansions, which was a pretty hefty cost for entry. Eventually Blizzard designed it so if you bought the 'current' expansion, your account would immediately update to include all previous ones.

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what they should've done is add 1 episode with the expansion so you have kind of a lure, if you want to have more you can buy the rest but you at least now know why all that happened.HoT is already explained when you ask for a recap of season 1 but PoF is a complete mystery when you start out and out of the blue you have to fight a god. (>! maybe only add the episode where balthazar actually reveals himself.)

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"trev.1045" said:Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

That's quite the logical leap there. Expansions and LS are two very different pieces of content, at least the iterations we currently have. Quality, quantity, scope and method of delivery among their many differences. I see no point in comparing the two and to answer your (rhetorical?) question, no, expansions shouldn't be free.

Also expansions aren't "bridges" to the main narrative, they are the main narrative. Maybe this will change now that we are not getting them anymore.

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

How would you change things, without hurting ANet's bottom line?
  • Charge more for the expansions?
  • Charge veterans for the Living World too?
  • Charge a subscription and include the episode as part of that?

There aren't all that many alternatives and each alienates someone.

I agree its a tough issue to solve, i dont mind subs- but i am fully aware this would alienate tonnes of players and is a non-starter

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@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@"trev.1045" said:Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

That's quite the logical leap there. Expansions and LS are two very different pieces of content, at least the iterations we currently have. Quality, quantity, scope and method of delivery among their many differences. I see no point in comparing the two and to answer your (rhetorical?) question, no, expansions shouldn't be free.

Also expansions aren't
"bridges"
to the main narrative, they
are
the main narrative. Maybe this will change now that we are not getting them anymore.

Not so much as both are the continuation of the narrative which you were arguing about. Don’t move the goalpost.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"trev.1045" said:Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

That's quite the logical leap there. Expansions and LS are two very different pieces of content, at least the iterations we currently have. Quality, quantity, scope and method of delivery among their many differences. I see no point in comparing the two and to answer your (rhetorical?) question, no, expansions shouldn't be free.

Also expansions aren't
"bridges"
to the main narrative, they
are
the main narrative. Maybe this will change now that we are not getting them anymore.

Not so much as both are the continuation of the narrative which you were arguing about. Don’t move the goalpost.

No goalpost moving here. LS story, at least so far, helps the narrative transition from fighting and beating Big Bad A to fighting and beating Big Bad B. It shows how you got from fighting Zhaitan alongside Destiny's Edge to fighting Mordremorth alongside Destiny's Edge 2.0. You can still proceed with the main story and go beat Big Bad B without knowing who the kitten are all those NPCs with you or how you got there. The transitions are not as important but they are still important.

If you still don't see the difference between the two, then what can I say, we obviously have very different perspectives.

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@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@"trev.1045" said:Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

That's quite the logical leap there. Expansions and LS are two very different pieces of content, at least the iterations we currently have. Quality, quantity, scope and method of delivery among their many differences. I see no point in comparing the two and to answer your (rhetorical?) question, no, expansions shouldn't be free.

Also expansions aren't
"bridges"
to the main narrative, they
are
the main narrative. Maybe this will change now that we are not getting them anymore.

Not so much as both are the continuation of the narrative which you were arguing about. Don’t move the goalpost.

No goalpost moving here. LS story, at least so far, helps the narrative transition from fighting and beating Big Bad A to fighting and beating Big Bad B. It shows how you got from fighting Zhaitan alongside Destiny's Edge to fighting Mordremorth alongside Destiny's Edge 2.0. You can still proceed with the main story and go beat Big Bad B without knowing who the kitten are all those NPCs with you or how you got there. The transitions are not
as
important but they are still important.

If you still don't see the difference between the two, then what can I say, we obviously have very different perspectives.

We do have very different perspectives as you’re attempting to make the LS narrative as being different from an expansion narrative which they’re really not. Also, if Anet were not to do expansions anymore, what then?

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"trev.1045" said:Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

That's quite the logical leap there. Expansions and LS are two very different pieces of content, at least the iterations we currently have. Quality, quantity, scope and method of delivery among their many differences. I see no point in comparing the two and to answer your (rhetorical?) question, no, expansions shouldn't be free.

Also expansions aren't
"bridges"
to the main narrative, they
are
the main narrative. Maybe this will change now that we are not getting them anymore.

Not so much as both are the continuation of the narrative which you were arguing about. Don’t move the goalpost.

No goalpost moving here. LS story, at least so far, helps the narrative transition from fighting and beating Big Bad A to fighting and beating Big Bad B. It shows how you got from fighting Zhaitan alongside Destiny's Edge to fighting Mordremorth alongside Destiny's Edge 2.0. You can still proceed with the main story and go beat Big Bad B without knowing who the kitten are all those NPCs with you or how you got there. The transitions are not
as
important but they are still important.

If you still don't see the difference between the two, then what can I say, we obviously have very different perspectives.

We do have very different perspectives as you’re attempting to make the LS narrative as being different from an expansion narrative which they’re really not. Also, if Anet were not to do expansions anymore, what then?

Then they'd have to deliver on that "expansion-like" LS season they mentioned as a goal a few months ago, story included. I'm curious to see the outcome myself to be honest.

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Two interesting ideas which I'd like to call out:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:I'd make LS more like spin-off side stories so players without them wouldn't be left with narrative gaps.It's too late in their planning cycle for LS5 to work that way and perhaps even for LS6; it might be soon enough for LS7 (or the expac that some hope for).

@sorudo.9054 said:add 1 episode with the expansion so you have kind of a lure,This is something ANet could do today.

On the other hand, ANet would probably argue that (a) there are already plenty of lures to purchase LS episodes, (b) the are already connected in lore, and © they have to draw the line somewhere, so why not at the start of the season instead of after the first chapter.

Worth thinking about, even though I expect ANet's already considered both and decided against.

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@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@"trev.1045" said:Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

That's quite the logical leap there. Expansions and LS are two very different pieces of content, at least the iterations we currently have. Quality, quantity, scope and method of delivery among their many differences. I see no point in comparing the two and to answer your (rhetorical?) question, no, expansions shouldn't be free.

Also expansions aren't
"bridges"
to the main narrative, they
are
the main narrative. Maybe this will change now that we are not getting them anymore.

Not so much as both are the continuation of the narrative which you were arguing about. Don’t move the goalpost.

No goalpost moving here. LS story, at least so far, helps the narrative transition from fighting and beating Big Bad A to fighting and beating Big Bad B. It shows how you got from fighting Zhaitan alongside Destiny's Edge to fighting Mordremorth alongside Destiny's Edge 2.0. You can still proceed with the main story and go beat Big Bad B without knowing who the kitten are all those NPCs with you or how you got there. The transitions are not
as
important but they are still important.

If you still don't see the difference between the two, then what can I say, we obviously have very different perspectives.

We do have very different perspectives as you’re attempting to make the LS narrative as being different from an expansion narrative which they’re really not. Also, if Anet were not to do expansions anymore, what then?

Then they'd have to deliver on that "expansion-like" LS season they mentioned as a goal a few months ago, story included. I'm curious to see the outcome myself to be honest.

Well they already are pretty much doing that with an entire season.

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@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@"trev.1045" said:Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

That's quite the logical leap there. Expansions and LS are two very different pieces of content, at least the iterations we currently have. Quality, quantity, scope and method of delivery among their many differences. I see no point in comparing the two and to answer your (rhetorical?) question, no, expansions shouldn't be free.

Also expansions aren't
"bridges"
to the main narrative, they
are
the main narrative. Maybe this will change now that we are not getting them anymore.

Except that the argument that started this thread was that they're not? Until recently, they were tied directly to expansions, LS1, 2 and 3 for sure.

Here's my perspective, as someone that started the game after both expansions were already live:

I missed out on the freebies, and on LS1. They added a short narrative on the major details, and minor character bios for LS1, and, like anyone else that didn't hit the log in dates for LS 2 and 3, I had to buy them if I wanted to play them. I decided I did want to play them, and so I bought them. I didn't feel alienated, or left out because of that. I felt like maybe I should have looked here sooner, so I could have gotten them for free, but I don't feel ripped off because I didn't. I got LS 4 for free, as I was playing when it came out, and I hit all the log in dates to get it for free. You see, from my perspective, giving away content like this is something to be applauded, even if it's on a "you must be logged in during x window to get them free". It encourages those that know about it to do just that if they want the content free, and rewards players that are actively playing for actively playing. That's a good move, from where I'm sitting, and again, I had to buy LS 2 and 3. Even the topic starter isn't complaining about needing to buy them, just that they didn't know they existed. So, from my perspective, the simplest solution is to note that on the store pages for both expansions. Something simple like "LS 2 is not required to play, but will fill in some gaps in the story from the main game", with a similar message regarding LS 3 and it's expansion.

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