Eurantien.4632 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 Edit: Changed title as this is really more about the lack of incentives to build teams that were removed with free tourneys than leaderboard addition. Although I think that leaderboards are still a factor in toxicity.The funnest this game has ever been was with free tourneys. The reason for this was you could queue with any number of people and placed in a match. If your team one you progressed to round 2. Won that? Your team goes to round 3. Then that was it. However many games you won, the better reward you got. The point was to win but if someone was a weak link on your team and you lost it wasn't that big of a deal, I could queue again or queue with friends to avoid that. Ideally this would have grown to have old GW1 style where you stay with your team till you lose. That created some awesome comraderie. Still, that's how I found my first PvP buddy's/team. We did great in a free tourney and then eventually stuck together to try paid tourneys.Now, it's a mess. I queue up, solo or duo. Wait 6 minutes. And have WAY more to lose than if I win. If I win now I get slightly better reward track progression and some rank points. If I lose, I get slightly less rewards but ALSO I lose 2-3 wins worth of rank points on the leaderboard. This just breeds animosity, someone makes a mistake now is way more frustrating because there is so much more to lose. I can't form new bonds and stay with players I thought did decent, because I saw them in 1 game. That's not enough time to form a strong enough impulse to want to queue with someone when weighed against the risk of losing 2-3 games worth of rank points. Not only that, but if i am duo'd we can't queue with that person. We can't have fun with new builds because it alienates teammates who also have more to lose now than back then. We can't form new bonds with people because the risk is too high. All we can do is queue with who we think are good and slowly grow to hate everyone else. And play builds we know are good. In free tourney days, I had a desire for other people to get better because I might have to be with them for 3 games in a row.Now, I just hope that person isn't on my team.What we have now is not a formula for a healthy community the way free tourneys were. ATs were kind of a growth from this but also fail to breed comraderie. I don't want to risk playing with people I don't know because of the time investment of an AT. I don't want to waste an hour standing around to not win the whole AT. I want to do two ATs a month as to not waste my time. If we lose... I'm already mad at my team because now I have to do at least ANOTHER AT and waste at least another hour to get enough QPs.TL;DR: leaderboards Make it so there is too much to lose now for little gain. Max duo queue means no way to form new bonds anymore. [Edit: Free tourneys incentivized teams and allowed them to spam games together and not have to wait ages for ATs]. There is little reason to try new things besides to counter meta now because it just triggers teammates. This combo is a complete 180 from the community of free tourney days And it's leading to a toxic community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayAction.9056 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 The issue is not leaderboard the issue is variance in player skill. Few people in this game have figured it out to the point where anybody that is in their matches not at that level completely destroys the experience and flow of the gameFor example, I come across you on soulbeast and I would argue it OP. I come across a soulbeast in the 1500 range and I honestly question if they are mentally ill and rage silently in real life even though rating would suggest them not far behind you. That being near as close as it gets to you and a few other southeasts playing it at your level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 couldn't care less if the leader board was removed. it doesn't do much but attract undesirables anyways.something to note tho, we will have no real way of keeping track of all those bots! the humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abelisk.5148 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 Make it a hidden leaderboard, but still grant titles. I would like it better that way and I think all of us would too. It helps us find our comfort zone and makes us panic less if we drop out of a certain tier such as top 250 or top 100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbelch.9028 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 I agree. PvP needs a drastic shift beyond what Swiss tournaments will gain us. Nicely written post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilli.2976 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 No leaderboard = no competitiveness = no PvP = boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 @Chilli.2976 said:No leaderboard = no competitiveness = no PvP = boring.no leaderboard = less match manipulation = more pvp = gud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilli.2976 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 @Stand The Wall.6987 said:@Chilli.2976 said:No leaderboard = no competitiveness = no PvP = boring.no leaderboard = less match manipulation = more pvp = gud.That is so bull lol, if there was no incentive to play and no competitiveness it will not create more players, in fact it would drastically reduce the amount of players.Have a look at any other sport, everything has a leaderboard pretty much - we humans are naturally competitive, and it doesn't have to be games/sports it could be other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liza.2758 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 just revert back to Vanilla systemthis current system was made because the game had esport scene back thensince there is no longer esport i would love to go back Vanilla system. more fun to play. nothing to lose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 @Chilli.2976 said:That is so bull lol, if there was no incentive to play and no competitiveness it will not create more players, in fact it would drastically reduce the amount of players.Have a look at any other sport, everything has a leaderboard pretty much - we humans are naturally competitive, and it doesn't have to be games/sports it could be other things.you think most peoples incentive to play is cuz of leader board? that's funny lol. if people actually leave cuz of no leader board, then good, they were probably win traders anyways.comparing a video game with ephemeral rewards to other sports where they are paid millions of dollars, well yeah, im sure you get the picture now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagg.9236 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 @"JayAction.9056" said:The issue is not leaderboard the issue is variance in player skill. This game orbits too closely around a gravity well of rock-paper-scissors paradigms to foster a high skill ceiling. Builds are incredibly forgiving and encourage auto-pilot tendencies by removing risk from engagements. The only real difference between a "good" player and a "bad" one is in how the former will have a muscle-memory sense as well as a long-form sense for the timing on skill rotations. This is a very, very basic skill threshold. Getting a sense of timing for 20 or so buttons is a tiny hill to climb when none of them really need to be aimed or properly timed when being used (most abilities that make it onto skill bars are either instant or under 0.75s activations). Moreover, the concept of "gamesense" is mostly absent when everyone has a minimap that is nearly on par with Halo with regards to its generous amount of enemy position info. All of this means that GW2 has less of a "read and predict" skill ceiling and more of a "slow rhythm game" ceiling. It's all about hard-counters and PvE-style rotations rather than aim or timing (especially when instant or passive abilities will consistently negate the efforts of opponents).If the game is good, players will find a way to make their own systems. In the same way that certain games like Team Fortress 2 or Age of Empires II will hold their own respective LANs or prize tournaments in 2019, if the playerbase is big enough for GW2, then it would find a way to make its own tournaments. That said, GW2's committed, competitive playerbase is absolutely anemic due to its general PvP gameplay. If stress was taken off of the "need to be plat+" then players might take a more pro-active stance at forming their own ranks and creating in-houses or tournaments for fun which isn't regulated by some mindless robot.tl;dr: If you removed the robotic ranking system, players would have to judge for themselves how good they were; if they had to judge for themselves, then they would need a community by which they could measure their skill; that process is what makes a competitive scene healthy and sustainable. Ranked is mostly just killing any urge that most GW2 players might have to create an independent PvP community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eurantien.4632 Posted April 9, 2019 Author Share Posted April 9, 2019 By removing the numbers it is no longer who is good by numbers and back to who is good by the "eye test". You keep things like monthly tournaments and what not. People would still know who is good or not. You can watch any game or any sport and tell who is good without seeing their numbers. People play this game cause this combat is good, with little incentive already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 @"Eurantien.4632" said:By removing the numbers it is no longer who is good by numbers and back to who is good by the "eye test". You keep things like monthly tournaments and what not. People would still know who is good or not. You can watch any game or any sport and tell who is good without seeing their numbers. People play this game cause this combat is good, with little incentive already.Then it mostly just becomes a game of who you know in the community Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 If you just remove LB basically nothing would change. Maybe a few less players each season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor.1905 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 There is no metric of skill that is more accurate than skill rating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abelisk.5148 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 @Doctor.1905 said:[True or False?] There is no metric of skill that is more accurate than skill rating.False Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylden Ar.3724 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 AoE spam ruined the game. The fact that a few classes can attack everything on the point by virtue of existing is bad for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadMed.3846 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 Duo and solo q leaderboards should be seperate. One should never get to solo top player as a duo player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 @Mbelch.9028 said:@Flandre.2870 said:@"Eurantien.4632" said:By removing the numbers it is no longer who is good by numbers and back to who is good by the "eye test". You keep things like monthly tournaments and what not. People would still know who is good or not. You can watch any game or any sport and tell who is good without seeing their numbers. People play this game cause this combat is good, with little incentive already.Nah people don't play because PoF is absolute trash and the game is old. No matter what you do at this point the game is unsalvageable and dead. None of your ideas matter.Then why do you care so much? Leave us all to rot if that's how you feel, at least we won't have to listen to that pessimistic sentiment.It is realistic. Anet have overhauled various systems multiple times, putting resources into yet another system rework is not going to "make pvp good". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelgm.4315 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 I think the topic title does not do justice to your post. Free tourneys are awesome and it baffles me that they moved away from the SEVERAL available modes they could have derived from GW1. Playing with your team until you lose was a great move back then and it would be awesome right now, at least for unranked. The leaderboards I don't think are the real problem but in reality we are all tired of having only the same mode and the same maps forever. This game has so much potential for a variety of PvP modes but all we get is capture-the-point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbelch.9028 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 @Quadox.7834 said:@Mbelch.9028 said:@Flandre.2870 said:@"Eurantien.4632" said:By removing the numbers it is no longer who is good by numbers and back to who is good by the "eye test". You keep things like monthly tournaments and what not. People would still know who is good or not. You can watch any game or any sport and tell who is good without seeing their numbers. People play this game cause this combat is good, with little incentive already.Nah people don't play because PoF is absolute trash and the game is old. No matter what you do at this point the game is unsalvageable and dead. None of your ideas matter.Then why do you care so much? Leave us all to rot if that's how you feel, at least we won't have to listen to that pessimistic sentiment.It is realistic. Anet have overhauled various systems multiple times, putting resources into yet another system rework is not going to "make pvp good".If you don't enjoy it, don't play it. If you don't play it, why waste time on its forums? See where I'm going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 @Mbelch.9028 said:@Quadox.7834 said:@Mbelch.9028 said:@Flandre.2870 said:@"Eurantien.4632" said:By removing the numbers it is no longer who is good by numbers and back to who is good by the "eye test". You keep things like monthly tournaments and what not. People would still know who is good or not. You can watch any game or any sport and tell who is good without seeing their numbers. People play this game cause this combat is good, with little incentive already.Nah people don't play because PoF is absolute trash and the game is old. No matter what you do at this point the game is unsalvageable and dead. None of your ideas matter.Then why do you care so much? Leave us all to rot if that's how you feel, at least we won't have to listen to that pessimistic sentiment.It is realistic. Anet have overhauled various systems multiple times, putting resources into yet another system rework is not going to "make pvp good".If you don't enjoy it, don't play it. If you don't play it, why waste time on its forums? See where I'm going? I can say the same to you. if you don't like the current system, don't play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vectra.1968 Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 I am sorry for my English Googolian, be indulgent thank you.It's absolutely beautiful post, it's my state of mind for almost 3 years where I say to myself that the community is more and more hermetic and can not pull up the players who are lower in the ranking and are real pearl.To make believe that in a team of 5 only one player can shoot the 4 others by himself to victory is false.Many explains that arenanet has to question itself that the pvp has to challenge itself, but not as Eurantien says the community must first question themselves and certainly the top 250 because there are examples ...As said above pull the pvp community up today when the mood of the environment is nonexistent.The solo and duo are made for a ranking of values that initially report in a way that falsifies the ranking.Today the state of mind is also you are not in the top 250 you gonna do to one or the top players and well it will sum it up by luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 @Stand The Wall.6987 said:@Chilli.2976 said:No leaderboard = no competitiveness = no PvP = boring.no leaderboard = less match manipulation = more pvp = gud.This is unfortunately probably true at this point. However, removing the leaderboard kind of kills the game for many people and that probably isn't a good idea right now. This leads into this guy's point:@Chilli.2976 said:That is so bull lol, if there was no incentive to play and no competitiveness it will not create more players, in fact it would drastically reduce the amount of players.Thing is, it would reduce the amount of competitive players yes. But it would bring in more casual players. Nothing would change in terms of raw population, just the type of population.@Doctor.1905 said:There is no metric of skill that is more accurate than skill rating.^ This is 110% true in any environment with a system that denies social favoritism and match manipulation. But we are talking solo/duo Guild Wars 2 Ranked spvp here, where there is this small but existent fascist like inner circle of win trading going on. The players involved in this are able to pick and choose who they like & allow to have fair games or who they dislike and que snipe, when they play on their alts. If a player chooses not to participate in the social stigma of this eminence front, the leaderboards are not as fair as they are for the players who do choose to participate.@"Eurantien.4632"Agree with everything you've said. The current model of everything in spvp is designed to isolate and segregate different demographics of players so they have nothing to gain from interacting together, but everything to lose. There isn't a reason to form an spvp guild within the game's current UI. There is nothing to benefit from a guild that is any different than our personal contact's list and there isn't even a requirement to do so "like other games that require a guild team to register themselves."Most of us who have played for a very long time now share these kinds of opinions and it becomes obvious that the community is sick like a stage 3 cancer patient because there isn't enough incentive or even opportunities to play as a team together. ATs are great, they are, but it isn't frequent enough. We need a game mode that allows a guild to que as a team all day long if that's what they want to do, and I mean something competitive, not unranked. As you've already stated, we need a reason to get to know people again, and a way to do it while not risking such heavy loss.You know I don't even show up to inhouses or scrims very often, for the same types of reasons you've already mentioned. What is convenient in scheduling/organizing/supporting any of this when I only get to run an AT once every 4 hours? Sometimes I'm not even online at the right time to be able to run that AT, and when I am online, I have no guarantee that I'll even be playing with the people I was practicing with. Ideally for me, speaking for myself here, what I would like to see happen is something like this:Ranked returned to 5-man que, more frequent ATs, return to the old guild team leaderboards that display rating for a registered team pertaining to those 5-man ranked ques or more frequent ATs or even free tourneys. I don't care what it is, just a competitive 5-man game mode that I can que at any time I have time to log in for an hour or so.All 5 players participating must be tagged up, representing the same guild, and registered together as a guild team. This would give purpose to forming a guild again, and reaching out to new players.Any time the guild team removes and adds a new player to their registration, the team's rating resets "not the individual mmrs" and they essentially start over with placement. This means that if a team wants to play high and stay high on a guild team leaderboard, they need to pick a team of 5 people and stick with it. This would eliminate our current AT grouping methods of "Oh I'll just invite whoever is on that I see that are the best 4 players that I know." <- Again, this kind of stuff encourages segregation and isolation between different player demographics.A player could be registered in let's say 3 different teams maximum, and they could all be from different guilds. This would let the player be a part of some elite grouping of all the best players he knows, and that team that he participates in will have a separate rating on the leaderboard than the other team he plays in, with all of his gold 2 and gold 3 friends. <- This would be FANTASTIC encouragement for veteran players to meet and play with new players, and not fear the rating displayed by doing this, because he always has that one elite team he's with, that shows what his real potential team play rating is.And the best part about the 5-man que, is that players don't have to worry about some PUG slot throwing on them for a que snipe or because some guy thought he'd be cool a bro and play without armor, ect ect.I'm sure plenty of people have arguments for the above suggestions, that's fine. But one thing is certain, we need a game mode that encourages players to play together again, instead of que dodge each other or go offline so people they don't want to disappoint can't message them, and in general avoid each other like the plague. Because this stuff is killing the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 I think one good step to less match manipulation is to make legendary easier to get into. how has it been for the past several seasons, maybe like 3 people per season get in there? thats ludicrous. its an entire tier left empty cuz +2 -20 rating scoring.@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:snipswell said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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