[Discussion/Suggestion] The state of "Sic 'Em!" in PvP and WvW.

[bigo.9037]

Okay so after reading this thread at work I wanted to try out sicem in wvw. I just used my regular build and swapped moastance with sicem. As a top tier ranger I have to say it ought to be nerfed lol

It works well even against non stealth classes like warrior. I was dueling a friend of mine on his warrior. Popped sicem after his EP and stab passive was over but didn't do anything fancy cus he's good and I had to manage my rotation carefully. He slips up a little bit, gets hit by my counter attack on GS, and I kid you not it crit him 10k.

Imagine making 1 mistake and getting hit with the counter attack on GS and 60% of your HP is gone. LOL.

At first I kinda lacked the boons from moa but I learned to live without it.

I suggest you either Nerf dmg to 20% or reduce the duration to like 3 seconds. The current duration is just too long. It lasts so long that people can blow their defense after a RF lb combo and you have plenty of time to set up a GS burst and the sicem buff is still on. It's ridiculous.

Personally I never really had much of an issue with sicem before but I guess that's because 90% of the rangers in wvw are terrible. But I had the same experience in spvp..

[Psycoprophet.8107]

The damage modifier needs to be toned down without a doubt. The modifier is far to high as was RI guard trait,funny how arenanet catches that but leaves sic em lmao

[bigo.9037]

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:The damage modifier needs to be toned down without a doubt. The modifier is far to high as was RI guard trait,funny how arenanet catches that but leaves sic em lmao

I agree either nerf the dmg or reduce duration. 2-3 seconds of 40% dmg would be acceptable I think, as someone who tends to run without sicem. At least now they only have 1 rapid fire and a few AAs or a single gs burst. Leave the "revealed" duration at full but reduce dmg buff to 3 seconds.

[Eurantien.4632]

@bigo.9037 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:The damage modifier needs to be toned down without a doubt. The modifier is far to high as was RI guard trait,funny how arenanet catches that but leaves sic em lmao

I agree either nerf the dmg or reduce duration. 2-3 seconds of 40% dmg would be acceptable I think, as someone who tends to run without sicem. At least now they only have 1 rapid fire and a few AAs or a single gs burst. Leave the "revealed" duration at full but reduce dmg buff to 3 seconds.

Do we also reduce the CD or just straight up nerf a utility that only has 1 purpose AND needs a target?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@bigo.9037 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:The damage modifier needs to be toned down without a doubt. The modifier is far to high as was RI guard trait,funny how arenanet catches that but leaves sic em lmao

I agree either nerf the dmg or reduce duration. 2-3 seconds of 40% dmg would be acceptable I think, as someone who tends to run without sicem. At least now they only have 1 rapid fire and a few AAs or a single gs burst. Leave the "revealed" duration at full but reduce dmg buff to 3 seconds.

Do we also reduce the CD or just straight up nerf a utility that only has 1 purpose AND needs a target?

Target requirement isn't to detrimental to skills like sic em, not like needing a target on teleport etc is, target one opponent any opponent with sic em and once activated u can reap its benefits vs any target. A 25% 6 sec damage buff that synergize with soulbeast skills and other traits the way it does now with reveal on top would be more in line with the game.cd doesnt need reduced.

[Shadowcat.2680]

I might've agreed about nerfing Sic 'Em before bunker scrapper was a thing.

[jcbroe.4329]

These threads are just so exhausting now.

Look, I get it, being "pew pew'd" is annoying.So are the Firebrand boon and support spam overlords.So are the Scourge massive spam of AoEs; that when stacked create a sea of cancer.So is the Spellbreaker Rampage faceroll dodge perfectly or die fights with extra sustain to boot.So is the Chrono phantasm/clone visual cancer.So are the Mirages spamming target drops.So are the Heralds rolling their face into offhand sword and oneshotting you.So are the Scrappers forehead smashing their keyboard and winning.So is the pressure/CC and visual spam of Holos.Even Weaver is obnoxiously overtuned but it's hard to complain about with everything else on the list.

Let's face it, PvP and WvW have been hot garbage since PoF. Powercreep was already massive in HoT and in need of further culling before PoF was tossed on top of it.

So I get the complaints, I really do. I can't say I'm inclined to disagree.But seriously, going after individual classes is just whack-a-mole'ing the cancer of this game away one biased complaint at a time.

[melandru.3876]

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@"UmbraNoctis.1907" said:Sic'Em basically turns everything a soulbeast does into burst for 10s, even more so when paired with OWP, which means to counter it you need to be invulnerable for the whole duration, and can't even rely on blocks, reflects or stealth for the most part. Combined with the overall strong package of ranger/sb, it is far from balanced and certainly not necessary in order to kill other players. If players wouldn't waste their skills so often it would be a guaranteed kill against almost anything. Luckily most rangers in WvW are terrible at playing this game, which is the only thing that makes it somewhat bareable.

Unblockable doesn't last a full 10 seconds.Reflects still ReflectStealth- Cant hit what you cant seeEvades/Dodges still workInvulnsLine of sight

there are 2 sic'm builds:1) longbow + greatsword2) longbow + axe/horn

unstoppable union: 4 sec unblockable 10 seconds cooldowncall of the wild: 4 sec unblockable

oh noes 2 seconds without unblockable2 seconds later, merge again, 4 seconds unblokcable

reflecting unblockable???https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable"Unblockable is a property of attack skills which prevents the attack from being blocked, and in case of ranged attacks, reflected or otherwise destroyed by effects of skills."

stealth? we are talking about sic'm, which has revealed on 2000 range. how do you plan on stealthing? unless you are a deadeye and use 1 specific elite skill

ye, ranger main detected that needs this cheese to win

and regarding the 15k autos, that's easy to do. build up might, merge with ferocious pet, use greatword 2(+50% dmg) swap to longbow use sic'em (+40% dmg) with a full zerker build that uses marksmanship/beastmaster/soulbeast.

lets list all the dmg modifiers this zerk ranger has

1) opening strike +25% dmg (remorseless trait)2) farsighted +10% dmg3) loud whistle +10% dmg4) furious strenght +7% dmg5) oppressive superiority +10% dmg6) sic'm + 40% dmg7) attack of oportunity (gs 2 precast) +50% dmg

^ that is what gives the 15k autos, that are unblockable, and allways crit out of nowhere

[bigo.9037]

@"jcbroe.4329" said:These threads are just so exhausting now.

Look, I get it, being "pew pew'd" is annoying.So are the Firebrand boon and support spam overlords.So are the Scourge massive spam of AoEs; that when stacked create a sea of cancer.So is the Spellbreaker Rampage faceroll dodge perfectly or die fights with extra sustain to boot.So is the Chrono phantasm/clone visual cancer.So are the Mirages spamming target drops.So are the Heralds rolling their face into offhand sword and oneshotting you.So are the Scrappers forehead smashing their keyboard and winning.So is the pressure/CC and visual spam of Holos.Even Weaver is obnoxiously overtuned but it's hard to complain about with everything else on the list.

Let's face it, PvP and WvW have been hot garbage since PoF. Powercreep was already massive in HoT and in need of further culling before PoF was tossed on top of it.

So I get the complaints, I really do. I can't say I'm inclined to disagree.But seriously, going after individual classes is just whack-a-mole'ing the cancer of this game away one biased complaint at a time.

Well we gotta start somewhere don't we?You're saying "it's all fucked up, so let's not change anything"?????? What?????

Sicem is a toxic skill. Ppl complain about 1shots cus it's not fun to play against just like mirage and chrono. How about we actually suggest changing it then?

Sicem isn't something ranger needs to stay competitive. I've been doing fine with my builds before I started slotting sicem for the lulz. So if it's just a lulz build then why are we defending it?

Yea, scrapper and FB needs nerfs to their sustain too but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything about a skill that lets ppl 100-0 ppl from 1500+ range away with hardly any defense other than spending all your dodges or using invulnerability because unblockable and revealed.

And this is coming from a ranger main.

[bigo.9037]

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@bigo.9037 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:The damage modifier needs to be toned down without a doubt. The modifier is far to high as was RI guard trait,funny how arenanet catches that but leaves sic em lmao

I agree either nerf the dmg or reduce duration. 2-3 seconds of 40% dmg would be acceptable I think, as someone who tends to run without sicem. At least now they only have 1 rapid fire and a few AAs or a single gs burst. Leave the "revealed" duration at full but reduce dmg buff to 3 seconds.

Do we also reduce the CD or just straight up nerf a utility that only has 1 purpose AND needs a target?

If you can do fine without a skill that lets you instagib ppl from 1500+ range away then it ought to be nerfed.

[oOStaticOo.9467]

What is with people who hate Ranger, using a Ranger icon to come into the Ranger forums and bash Rangers?? You think it gives you more credibility in doing so? You think it lends more weight to your arguments? So funny.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

ppl who think this doesn't need to be nerfed are abusing it lol. its so obvious.

[oOStaticOo.9467]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:ppl who think this doesn't need to be nerfed are abusing it lol. its so obvious.

There are far worse offenders out there than Sic'Em. And people who deny that, are abusing those. LOL. It's so obvious.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@oOStaticOo.9467 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:ppl who think this doesn't need to be nerfed are abusing it lol. its so obvious.

There are far worse offenders out there than Sic'Em. And people who deny that, are abusing those. LOL. It's so obvious.

nice one bro. its not a contest, garbo is garbo.

[bigo.9037]

@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:What is with people who hate Ranger, using a Ranger icon to come into the Ranger forums and bash Rangers?? You think it gives you more credibility in doing so? You think it lends more weight to your arguments? So funny.

I main ranger since I started in 2012. Stop projecting lol. And for that exact reason, yea, yea I do think it gives my argument more weight.

Sicem is pretty broken. Especially in wvw where you can have both good sustain with boons/rotation and deal massive 1hit dmg with sicem cus you can run full zerker.

My next YT vid is legit gonna be called "Sicem isn't broken"And a bunch of clips where I get ppl anywhere from 70-100 down to 0 with a single weapon skill. Over the weekend I've already recorded like 4-5 of them.

[Arheundel.6451]

@bigo.9037 said:

@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:What is with people who hate Ranger, using a Ranger icon to come into the Ranger forums and bash Rangers?? You think it gives you more credibility in doing so? You think it lends more weight to your arguments? So funny.

I main ranger since I started in 2012. Stop projecting lol. And for that exact reason, yea, yea I do think it gives my argument more weight.

Sicem is pretty broken. Especially in wvw where you can have both good sustain with boons/rotation and deal massive 1hit dmg with sicem cus you can run full zerker.

My next YT vid is legit gonna be called "Sicem isn't broken"And a bunch of clips where I get ppl anywhere from 70-100 down to 0 with a single weapon skill. Over the weekend I've already recorded like 4-5 of them.

You are right but..outside the unholy sniping , the class is pretty useless in the whole gamemode, indeed the utility is even used by borderline useful sniping builds around your main zerg, I am all for nerfing sic em but can this class receive some sort of aoe affect given that all other class ( save warrior maybe and they still have spellbreaker for melee trains ) have a relevant zerg build?

[bigo.9037]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@bigo.9037 said:

@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:What is with people who hate Ranger, using a Ranger icon to come into the Ranger forums and bash Rangers?? You think it gives you more credibility in doing so? You think it lends more weight to your arguments? So funny.

I main ranger since I started in 2012. Stop projecting lol. And for that exact reason, yea, yea I do think it gives my argument more weight.

Sicem is pretty broken. Especially in wvw where you can have both good sustain with boons/rotation and deal massive 1hit dmg with sicem cus you can run full zerker.

My next YT vid is legit gonna be called "Sicem isn't broken"And a bunch of clips where I get ppl anywhere from 70-100 down to 0 with a single weapon skill. Over the weekend I've already recorded like 4-5 of them.

You are right but..outside the unholy sniping , the class is pretty useless in the whole gamemode, indeed the utility is even used by borderline useful sniping builds around your main zerg, I am all for nerfing sic em but can this class receive some sort of aoe affect given that all other class ( save warrior maybe and they still have spellbreaker for melee trains ) have a relevant zerg build?

Ranger is excellent for roaming and small scale fights but yea aoe would be nice. You don't need to be all-in 1shot to do well with it while roaming.

[anduriell.6280]

@bigo.9037 said:you repeat yourself quite a lot. Just so you can get the idea the game is not designed to provide dumb weakness and artificial limitations to classes . Your mantra of nerfing soulbeast just for the sake of it is ridiculous.

No other class in game has the limitations or how you call them weakness because it does not fit with the game itself. This game is not WoW with their rigid class system, so stop pushing your agenda to make it so.

Sic'em doesnt need to be nerfed, the increased damage in wvw is a 25% for 6 seconds. The core utilities don't need no nerf, it needs buffing. Ranger still keeps outdated skills and mechanics which has been nerfed and never balanced again for a fun gameplay.

What is should be looked upon is the soulbeast itself and make sure damage the extra damage isnt applied when the foes are over 600 units away. As general design it seems the soulbeast was designed with this burst damage in mind but more melee oriented.

But for that the trait line should be redesigned so the traits reinforce that gameplay.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Lottie.5370" said:The current skill gives a 40% damage and movement boost for 8 seconds, with a 35 second recharge (28s when traited, also providing swiftness and regen). It also has 2000 range and applies revealed.

I don't really see a problem with this skill in PvE, it gives Soulbeast a huge damage boost that is needed for it to compete with other roles damage-wise.

In PvP and WvW however, I feel like it is too high of a damage buff. I can sit on top of a hill somewhere, see someone running about below: merge with pet, "Sic 'Em!" and Longbow 2 and that guy is dead. The whole thing is unblockable. I've been able to down squishier classes with just "Sic 'Em!" and one longbow auto, doing over 15k dmg. Because of the movement speed, it's also pretty hard to outrun.

Suggestion: Reduce the damage and movement buff in PvP and WvW to 20% or 30%. I think the duration/recharge is fine, however the range also seems a bit too high and should be scaled down to 1500 or 1200.

How do you guys feel about this skill at the moment? Do you find the revealed mechanic useful?

I don't think it's the biggest problem with Ranger, but I don't think it's particularly fun to play as, or against. I was surprised to see boonbeast nerfs in the patch and having this staying untouched.

It actually needs Sic Em the way it is now. Ever try to play a Ranger in wvw/pvp without Sic Em? It doesn't work and it ends up being so weak that it can't even down moderately good Necros while freecasting because that's how much power creep there is in everything right now. Also, if you dodge roll or block or LOS and wait out the 10s of Sic Em, then the Ranger is on a 32s CD before being able to use it again, and then his damage sucks and he is as squishy as a glass cannon Ele.

It's good to distinguish between what is "Overpowered" and what is "Annoying" because there is a difference. A great example was the recent Deadeye. Nothing pissed people off more than dying in 1-2 hits from an opponent they didn't see coming. Eventually so many people complained about "How strong it is" that it got nerfed into the ground. But the truth is that Deadeye saw absolutely no representation in Monthly Automated Tournament wins even before the nerf, and only 2 people in NA were even capable of playing it past a plat 1 level. Deadeye, for all of that aggravation it puts on that 1 person it targets, always sucked and was too easy to kill in small skirmish situations. DE has also always been bad in 1v1s vs. anyone who is smart enough to use terrain for LOSing.

My point being is: Be careful what you cry nerf over. Asking for "Changes or alterations" is one thing, but everyone at this point needs to be REAL SURE something is actually overpowered before they ask for straight chops to attributes, otherwise we're gonna end up with a game where only 3 classes out of 9 are even playable in competitive settings.

[bigo.9037]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Lottie.5370" said:The current skill gives a 40% damage and movement boost for 8 seconds, with a 35 second recharge (28s when traited, also providing swiftness and regen). It also has 2000 range and applies revealed.

I don't really see a problem with this skill in PvE, it gives Soulbeast a huge damage boost that is needed for it to compete with other roles damage-wise.

In PvP and WvW however, I feel like it is too high of a damage buff. I can sit on top of a hill somewhere, see someone running about below: merge with pet, "Sic 'Em!" and Longbow 2 and that guy is dead. The whole thing is unblockable. I've been able to down squishier classes with just "Sic 'Em!" and one longbow auto, doing over 15k dmg. Because of the movement speed, it's also pretty hard to outrun.

Suggestion: Reduce the damage and movement buff in PvP and WvW to 20% or 30%. I think the duration/recharge is fine, however the range also seems a bit too high and should be scaled down to 1500 or 1200.

How do you guys feel about this skill at the moment? Do you find the revealed mechanic useful?

I don't think it's the biggest problem with Ranger, but I don't think it's particularly fun to play as, or against. I was surprised to see boonbeast nerfs in the patch and having this staying untouched.

It actually needs Sic Em the way it is now. Ever try to play a Ranger in wvw/pvp without Sic Em? It doesn't work and it ends up being so weak that it can't even down moderately good Necros while freecasting because that's how much power creep there is in everything right now. Also, if you dodge roll or block or LOS and wait out the 10s of Sic Em, then the Ranger is on a 32s CD before being able to use it again, and then his damage sucks and he is as squishy as a glass cannon Ele.

It's good to distinguish between what is "Overpowered" and what is "Annoying" because there is a difference. A great example was the recent Deadeye. Nothing pissed people off more than dying in 1-2 hits from an opponent they didn't see coming. Eventually so many people complained about "How strong it is" that it got nerfed into the ground. But the truth is that Deadeye saw absolutely no representation in Monthly Automated Tournament wins even before the nerf, and only 2 people in NA were even capable of playing it past a plat 1 level. Deadeye, for all of that aggravation it puts on that 1 person it targets, always sucked and was too easy to kill in small skirmish situations. DE has also always been bad in 1v1s vs. anyone who is smart enough to use terrain for LOSing.

My point being is: Be careful what you cry nerf over. Asking for "Changes or alterations" is one thing, but everyone at this point needs to be REAL SURE something is actually overpowered before they ask for straight chops to attributes, otherwise we're gonna end up with a game where only 3 classes out of 9 are even playable in competitive settings.

LOL wrong. I play soulbeast without sicem all the time I only recently swapped to it to try it for lulz. Soulbeast has plenty of single target dmg. Plenty! You don't need that skill to kill people. If you do, you have just gotten carried by a one trick mechanic lol.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@bigo.9037

I'm talking about when you're actually running DPS Soulbeast instead of Boonbeast. Boonbeast can still kill over the course of time because it has the sustain to do it. DPS Soulbeast setups without Sic Em however, without all that sustain from Boonbeast setups, are not capable of the type of damage output they need to drop something like a Spellbreaker or Herald before it gets to them and creates a damage/sustain/mobility vs. damage/sustain/mobility bully situation. They also need reveal granted from Sic Em.

Seems like people are forgetting that before Soulbeast showed up, allowing Sic Em to work on the Ranger during merge, LB/GS setups were in no way viable whatsoever, and were widely considered to be as weak as Renegade is now.

^ Consider this

[bigo.9037]

@anduriell.6280 said:

@"bigo.9037" said:you repeat yourself quite a lot. Just so you can get the idea

the game is not designed to provide dumb weakness and artificial limitations to classes

. Your mantra of nerfing soulbeast just for the sake of it is ridiculous.

No other class in game has the limitations or how you call them

weakness

because it does not fit with the game itself.

This game is not WoW

with their rigid class system, so stop pushing your agenda to make it so.

Sic'em doesnt need to be nerfed, the increased damage in wvw is a 25% for 6 seconds. The core utilities don't need no nerf, it needs buffing. Ranger still keeps outdated skills and mechanics which has been nerfed and never balanced again for a fun gameplay.

What is should be looked upon is the soulbeast itself and make sure damage the extra damage isnt applied when the foes are over 600 units away. As general design it seems the soulbeast was designed with this burst damage in mind but more melee oriented.

But for that the trait line should be redesigned so the traits reinforce that gameplay.

You are wrong. It clearly says 40% dmg increase, and the dmg buff lasts for 10 WHOLE SECONDs. The reveal effect is what lasts 6 seconds.Seriously. If you can't play an entire class without sicem, you are just not a good ranger in the first place. I've been playing for so many years without using it. I use it for lulz dmg, but when I want to duel people I swap it out with either QZ or protect me.

This means that sicem isn't necessarily OP in all scenarios cus it's not the end all and be all, but it is "broken" in the sense that it's really unhealthy for the game. 1shots aren't really funny for everyone else except the ranger himself.

[bigo.9037]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@bigo.9037

I'm talking about when you're actually running DPS Soulbeast instead of Boonbeast. Boonbeast can still kill over the course of time because it has the sustain to do it. DPS Soulbeast setups without Sic Em however, without all that sustain from Boonbeast setups, are not capable of the type of damage output they need to drop something like a Spellbreaker or Herald before it gets to them and creates a damage/sustain/mobility vs. damage/sustain/mobility bully situation. They also need reveal granted from Sic Em.

Seems like people are forgetting that before Soulbeast showed up, allowing Sic Em to work on the Ranger during merge, LB/GS setups were in no way viable whatsoever, and were widely considered to be as weak as Renegade is now.

^ Consider this

What context are you talking about? You say dps do you mean havoc? Zerg? Roaming?I'm talking about roaming. No I'm not running boonbeast although I do use moastance. I run gs/lb and full zerk/ assassins. Basically full dmg spec. And I have no issues.

[Kain Francois.4328]

Sic Em s a bad skill because it compounds the bulk of a Ranger's damage into something with a longer cooldown. It'd be better just to give a soulbeast 20% more damage while merged. This would benefit all game modes as well.

[bigo.9037]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:Sic Em s a bad skill because it compounds the bulk of a Ranger's damage into something with a longer cooldown. It'd be better just to give a soulbeast 20% more damage while merged. This would benefit all game modes as well.

You guys are absolutely nuts. In wvw / pvp context soulbeast would be completely broken with this kind of buff. You don't need that dmg. You also don't need sicem to kill people. Jesus..If you're just talking pve, then please specify..