All or Nothing: Requiem: Zafirah's Story {discussion}

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:The Narrative Team is full of contradictions.

Sorry buddy this just reinforces Koning's point.That Balthazar's GW1 is not the same (in terms of personality) of GW2. Unfortunately it is what is there, whether from the point of view of the narrative is something contradictory or strange with previous lore, is another discussion. What we can not infer is that we are misunderstanding what he said and the narrative given to him in GW2, which is quite clear:

he does not care more about Tyria

.

What I'm trying to argue is that his actions does not match his bravado. As I've pointed out, he literally "forged" his own army and sent out the Zaishen to find volunteers instead of just subjugating everyone to fight for him. Someone who doesn't care about Tyria would pillage for resources and enslave the people to do his will. Somehow, he'd shown care even when building his fort so close to the farm land without destroying the farms and the one close to the Temple without destroying the temple. Yes, there are events in the game where his minions attacks the farm and the temple just to coerce them a bit so they would "volunteer", but the fact that he didn't outright setup camp on the farm or on the temple shows a bit of care for the people. None of these little thing would matter if he absolutely no longer care for Tyria.

But being the devil's advocates, what I find contradictory is that he takes care of hiding the last aspect of lazarus(and very well hidden behind rooms fulls of traps on a Abbadon reliquary). Did he mind a mursaat resuscitate because he still cared for Tyria or some selfish motive (accepting the narrative that he is full selfish now)?

That's basically what I'm trying to argue. There are things that he did that shows that he's doing it to save or protect Tyria which are not consistent with the way he was portrayed in the PoF expansion.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I would argue that what Balthazar did was to protect Tyria. It's just that his method was perceived to be unacceptable.

Balthazar disagrees with your argument:

Balthazar: Your kind will not stop my campaign.Pact Commander: Balthazar! What you're doing... You'll destroy Tyria!Balthazar: Your home is a trivial concern.Balthazar: They abated me, dimmed my light... But they will see me now.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Volcano_(story

)

Balthazar: Cowards. You may flee, but I will not. I do not avoid conflict... I am conflict.Balthazar: The Elder Dragons will die by my hands...and their power will become my power.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth

He no longer cared about Tyria and humans. He only wanted battle and revenge.

The Narrative Team is full of contradictions.

The gods have already shown that they have no power to destroy Tyria even if they try. Their war against Abaddon, the war between Balthazar and Menzie, and the war between Grenth and Dhuum are proof of that. At this point, I would say that Kormir is full of kitten unconvincingly trying to use Abaddon as an excuse not to intervene. The Desolation is but a small area compare to the rest of Tyria. So the commander saying that Balthazar would destroy Tyria is over exaggeration. Even the Elder Dragons could not destroy Tyria.

If you look at Balthazar's response; "Your home is a trivial concern", he did not say "Tyria is a trivial concern".

He didn't even acknowledge that he's capable of destroying Tyria because he knows he can't. Instead, he correctly responded that the commander is not concern about Tyria as a whole, rather the commander is only concern about his home, thus he replied appropriately.

In the Facing the Truth, the council of the gods was to decide whether to battle the ED or not. Now why are they discussing that if the goal is not to save Tyria? When the other gods refused, Balthazar called them cowards. He only craved for power because the other gods have stripped him of his power, which showed his desperation.

The GW2 Episodes and the Expansion might not have addressed this, but Balthazar loves the humans. He enjoyed when humans battle in the Arena and many other things. He was the one who gifted the humans with Sohothin and Magdaer. The whole Path of Fire expansion showed that he didn't even bothered the humans nor create an army of humans. Yes there were humans who followed him in his desert campaign, but those are the ones who voluntarily do so. He could've easily forced Amnoon to rally under his flag if he wanted, but didn't, instead he used the souls of the dead and literally "forged" his own army. His actions shows that he wanted to preserve the humans however he can.

"It was Balthazar who urged humanity to engage the other races in battle and claim the world for themselves, believing the other races would fall easily."(

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balthazar

)

The Gods do have the power to destroy Tyria. A single battle between them, five versus one, turned a sea into a desert which is, so far, nothing on the level the Elder Dragons have managed, with Zhaitan raising Orr from the depths the only thing coming on par. When Abaddon was killed, his released magic would have destroyed Tyria

from the Realm of Torment

unless Kormir absorbed that power, which she did. Even then that surge was enough to trigger the Elder Dragon cycle. In contrast, it takes three Elder Dragons being killed before Tyria is under threat of being destroyed. From this we can deduce that the divine magic of a single God is on par with three Elder Dragons in terms of the damage it can do to the world.

Balthazar was capable of destroying Tyria even when he did not have Divine power by virtue of the fact of still being able to fight, kill and absorb the energy of Elder Dragons, not through brute force, but through innovation and understanding of magic.

I really doubt that the gods are capable of destroying the world. The Elder Dragon awoken before yet Tyria still exists and we both know that the gods are inferior to the ED, Kormir said so herself.

Also, the Forged attacked and killed humans in Elona so their souls could then be used to create more Forged. That's not exactly leaving humans alone.

That just adds to the contradiction in the narrative, doesn't it? Why did he even bother attacking outlying villages when he can harvest a lot of souls by attacking Amnoon? He even bother going to the Underworld for souls instead of harvesting Amnoon. I mean, he already has a camp right there, yet he didn't bother to march an army to the city.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

Kormir didn't say the Gods were inferior to the Elder Dragons. She said there could be no victory in their inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons. Since we know that winning against the Elder Dragons without replacing them results in Tyria being destroyed, that would not be a victory for the Gods, because their objective when waging the conflict would be to protect Tyria. If Tyria is destroyed in the process, then they have failed and not achieved victory, and if even one God died in the conflict, then Tyria will also be destroyed from the release of that God's divine magic. So just as Kormir said, no victory.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Kormir didn't say the Gods were inferior to the Elder Dragons. She said there could be no victory in their inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons. Since we know that winning against the Elder Dragons without replacing them results in Tyria being destroyed, that would not be a victory for the Gods, because their objective when waging the conflict would be to protect Tyria. If Tyria is destroyed in the process, then they have failed and not achieved victory, just as Kormir said.

She said; "The dragons are beyond even the gods—a raw, primal force without equal."

[ThatOddOne.4387]

As a group, maybe, to me that line doesn't stand up to scrutiny. But either way the Elder Dragons do not act in concert, the Gods do. Or would be, in theory, if they were fighting the Elder Dragons. They would fight them one at a time.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The gods have already shown that they have no power to destroy Tyria even if they try. Their war against Abaddon, the war between Balthazar and Menzie, and the war between Grenth and Dhuum are proof of that. At this point, I would say that Kormir is full of kitten unconvincingly trying to use Abaddon as an excuse not to intervene. The Desolation is but a small area compare to the rest of Tyria. So the commander saying that Balthazar would destroy Tyria is over exaggeration. Even the Elder Dragons could not destroy Tyria.

You do realize that the latter two were done in the Mists, and the first did cause massive devastation that was barely contained, right?

Kormir's explanation of Abaddon is to point out that when the gods step in, things turn out far worse than when mortals do. That's why Grenth and the Reapers dethroning Dhuum had no notable side effects, just as Kormir and the GW1 PCs dethroning Abaddon had no notable side effects of his death: they were situations of mortal versus god (even Nightfall's tendrils everywhere was eventually undone). But when it's god versus god, or even god versus godlike, seas turn into deserts, and verdant coastlines turned into sulfurous wasteland.

Besides, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the gods can willynilly destroy Tyria. The death of a god can, just as the death of three Elder Dragons can destroy Tyria.

If you look at Balthazar's response; "Your home is a trivial concern", he did not say "Tyria is a trivial concern".

He didn't even acknowledge that he's capable of destroying Tyria because he knows he can't. Instead, he correctly responded that the commander is not concern about Tyria as a whole, rather the commander is only concern about his home, thus he replied appropriately.

So you're telling me that the entire narrative that we've been living on for the past 2 years now is a lie, that we do not need a replacement for the Elder Dragons, and that Glint's Legacy is unneeded?

Because that is what you're claiming by twisting Balthazar's words to mean something not implied in the slightest.

In the Facing the Truth, the council of the gods was to decide whether to battle the ED or not. Now why are they discussing that if the goal is not to save Tyria? When the other gods refused, Balthazar called them cowards. He only craved for power because the other gods have stripped him of his power, which showed his desperation.

He craved powers before he was stripped. Read the full dialogue:

Balthazar: Cowards. You may flee, but I will not. I do not avoid conflict... I am conflict.Balthazar: The Elder Dragons will die by my hands...and their power will become my power.Kormir: Balthazar was blinded by his pride. The dragons are beyond even the gods—a raw, primal force without equal.Kormir: Whether he won or lost—by his death or theirs—Balthazar's ambitions would bring about the end of Tyria.Kormir: The rest of the Six—Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru, even Lyssa—reached an agreement. Balthazar had to be dealt with.Balthazar: If you won't join the fight against the dragons, I'll see you all burn with them!Balthazar: Cowards! ALL OF YOU!Kormir: We stripped him of his power, and chained him in the Mists. There he would remain, forever—powerless to carry out his plans.Balthazar: Mark these words: when I'm free, I will strike you down, and claim your power for my own!Balthazar: I will NOT be dismissed! I am Balthazar, mightiest of the Six!Balthazar: And I swear to you, you will scream your allegiance before the end!

Each time Balthazar speaks is a jump forward in time. First set is when the gods decided not to kill the Elder Dragons and Balthazar disagreed. Second set of lines is when the gods "turned" on Balthazar. Third set of lines was his parting proclamation as he was imprisoned.

He hadn't yet lost his power when he proclaimed "and their [the Elder Dragons'] power will become my power."

The GW2 Episodes and the Expansion might not have addressed this, but Balthazar loves the humans. He enjoyed when humans battle in the Arena and many other things. He was the one who gifted the humans with Sohothin and Magdaer. The whole Path of Fire expansion showed that he didn't even bothered the humans nor create an army of humans. Yes there were humans who followed him in his desert campaign, but those are the ones who voluntarily do so. He could've easily forced Amnoon to rally under his flag if he wanted, but didn't, instead he used the souls of the dead and literally "forged" his own army. His actions shows that he wanted to preserve the humans however he can.

Loved. Past tense. Zafirah's short story outright contradicts the notion that he still does. Even ignoring the massive slaughtering of innocents he performed to build up his Forged army, he threw Zaishen lives away, despite having that army of Forged. Balthazar had abandoned humanity sometime between GW1 and GW2, and became a spoiled bloodthirsty manchild before his imprisonment.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Kormir didn't say the Gods were inferior to the Elder Dragons. She said there could be no victory in their inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons. Since we know that winning against the Elder Dragons without replacing them results in Tyria being destroyed, that would not be a victory for the Gods, because their objective when waging the conflict would be to protect Tyria. If Tyria is destroyed in the process, then they have failed and not achieved victory, just as Kormir said.

She said; "The dragons are beyond even the gods—a raw, primal force without equal."

The word "beyond" is not the same as "more powerful". My understanding, especially when you add the reworded Daybreak trailer dialogue, is that the Six Gods' power is static, while the Elder Dragons' power is dynamic (as we well know). The Elder Dragons are generally weaker than the Six, but they're capable of becoming more powerful.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:That just adds to the contradiction in the narrative, doesn't it? Why did he even bother attacking outlying villages when he can harvest a lot of souls by attacking Amnoon? He even bother going to the Underworld for souls instead of harvesting Amnoon. I mean, he already has a camp right there, yet he didn't bother to march an army to the city.

There is no contradiction in the narrative. You're ignoring the very clear, very important fact.

Something unknown happened to Balthazar to change him. As he states in Heart of the Volcano:

Balthazar: I've learned there is no honor in war. But if you crave the glory of the fray...

And I do not believe that this is tied to the gods taking his divinity and imprisoning him, given the fact that in Facing the Truth, his argument for why he wants to fight the Elder Dragons is: "I do not avoid conflict... I am conflict." That is literally no different from Dhuum's lines in GW1: "HOW CAN YOU HOPE TO VANQUISH DEATH ITSELF?" and again in GW2: "YOU CANNOT VANQUISH DEATH ITSELF." The Six are not literal incarnations of what they have (or had) dominion over. Dwayna is not life incarnate, nor is Melandru nature incarnate. But when the gods go insane, they start believing they are.

There is no contradiction that you keep proclaiming. The fact is simple: Something happened to Balthazar that altered his way of thinking. He became disheartened by everything he once stood for and taught - honor, courage, defending the innocent - and moved to do exactly what he hated, exactly what Menzies who had always acted as his opposite, behaved - using deception, treachery, killing innocents, and causing destruction.

That's part of why so many lore folks I've seen felt like it should have been Menzies we fought in Path of Fire rather than Balthazar. Because "something unknown happened", and Balthazar's personality practically became Menzies'.

And people changing over time is not a contradiction. It's character development - this time, it just wasn't done properly, as we should have learned during PoF (even if not in the main story) why Balthazar's personality changed.

[Loesh.4697]

Pretty much what Konig said. Balthazar in guild wars 1 was as much a god of protection as well as destruction, there was a distinctly human element to him as a war god. Though I would also say that ever since we've learned about Balthazar in GW2 it's been throwing shade on that reputation, that he stepped into Arah with his fathers severed head in hand, that he disagreed with Melandru on peace with the other races in order to wage war, not only was his characterization in PoF botched, but he was retroactively made into a psychotic manchild. Examples like mine of House Vasberg advocating for peace between the Luxons and Kurzicks has been thrown to the wayside for what seemed like a 'War is just bad' narrative.

Hence why I enjoy Zafirah so much, her ideology and description of the tenants is a return to form. But i'm not holding my breathe on their depiction improving just yet, not until we've had more time to interact with her.

[Mickey Frogeater.1470]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:That just adds to the contradiction in the narrative, doesn't it? Why did he even bother attacking outlying villages when he can harvest a lot of souls by attacking Amnoon? He even bother going to the Underworld for souls instead of harvesting Amnoon. I mean, he already has a camp right there, yet he didn't bother to march an army to the city.

There is no contradiction in the narrative. You're ignoring the very clear, very important fact.

Something unknown happened to Balthazar to change him. As he states in Heart of the Volcano:

Balthazar: I've learned there is no honor in war. But if you crave the glory of the fray...

And I do not believe that this is tied to the gods taking his divinity and imprisoning him, given the fact that in Facing the Truth, his argument for why he wants to fight the Elder Dragons is:

"I do not avoid conflict... I am conflict."

That is literally no different from Dhuum's lines in GW1:

"HOW CAN YOU HOPE TO VANQUISH DEATH ITSELF?"

and again in GW2:

"YOU CANNOT VANQUISH DEATH ITSELF."

The Six are not literal incarnations of what they have (or had) dominion over. Dwayna is not life incarnate, nor is Melandru nature incarnate. But when the gods go insane, they start believing they are.

There is no contradiction that you keep proclaiming. The fact is simple: Something happened to Balthazar that altered his way of thinking. He became disheartened by everything he once stood for and taught - honor, courage, defending the innocent - and moved to do exactly what he hated, exactly what Menzies who had always acted as his opposite, behaved - using deception, treachery, killing innocents, and causing destruction.

That's part of why so many lore folks I've seen felt like it should have been Menzies we fought in Path of Fire rather than Balthazar. Because "something unknown happened", and Balthazar's personality practically became Menzies'.

And people changing over time is

not

a contradiction. It's character development - this time, it just wasn't done properly, as we should have learned during PoF (even if not in the main story) why Balthazar's personality changed.

Do we even know what kind of person Menzies is? All we know is that he is called the deceiver, the lord of destruction and that his armies are cowards. We know nothing more than this.

Balthazar's armies aren't cowards... Neither is Balthazar himself despite his use of deception. That makes him different from Menzies who doesn't risk himself at any juncture.

Balthazar began to respect Deception and Treachery due to his capture. He was already obsessed with Destruction before then(in seeking the destruction of Elder Dragons) and even killed an Innocent named Kaolai who won a chess game for the sake of sparing a village(who offended him) fair and square with the subsequent gesture of sportsmanship(inducting/drafting/forcing him into the service of Tahnnakai Temple) being considered rare for Balthazar.

[Loesh.4697]

The thing is there needs to be a balance. While I rolled my eyes at the sympathy for the devil angle of One Path Ends(Abaddon was such a monumentally evil god that painting him otherwise after his imprisonment seems...well it's not laughable, but would take more work then one episode could do.) I did adore the god parables, especially the one for Grenth, Balthazar, and Lyssa. I am not against the gods have negative or vicious aspects to their nature, quite the opposite anything that is taking that much of the universe into oneself should reflect that concepts darker nature as well. However I feel that a lot of that darker nature that started overwhelming the tutelary aspects of the Six, or the fundamentally good values they represented.

Balthazar in Path of Fire, if they were going to insist on him being the antagonist, needed to strike that balance. It would of actually made him a Joko-esque complex character who was against us, but for whom we could at least understand his point of view. As it stands they wrote Balthazar as the same all consuming force that characterizes the dragons, like a primordial force of nature, which is epic in scale but...just not very interesting to fight all the time.

[Mickey Frogeater.1470]

@Loesh.4697 said:The thing is there needs to be a balance. While I rolled my eyes at the sympathy for the devil angle of One Path Ends(Abaddon was such a monumentally evil god that painting him otherwise after his imprisonment seems...well it's not laughable, but would take more work then one episode could do.) I did adore the god parables, especially the one for Grenth, Balthazar, and Lyssa. I am not against the gods have negative or vicious aspects to their nature, quite the opposite anything that is taking that much of the universe into oneself should reflect that concepts darker nature as well. However I feel that a lot of that darker nature that started overwhelming the tutelary aspects of the Six, or the fundamentally good values they represented.

Balthazar in Path of Fire, if they were going to insist on him being the antagonist, needed to strike that balance. It would of actually made him a Joko-esque complex character who was against us, but for whom we could at least understand his point of view. As it stands they wrote Balthazar as the same all consuming force that characterizes the dragons, like a primordial force of nature, which is epic in scale but...just not very interesting to fight all the time.

So Balthazar was an embodiment of War and Fire and Dhuum was an embodiment of Death just as Primordius was Fire and Rock, Mordremoth was Plants and Mind and Zhaitan was Shadow and Death... There honestly is no difference between Elder Dragons and Ex-Gods in the end and the difference between the two and full Gods is Divinity. Of course Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth both show intelligence like Balthazar so obviously they are the same in nature.

Menzies hasn't shown himself yet his title of Lord of Destruction plus his command of Shadow creatures indicates a being that embodies Shadow and Destruction. Menzies will be a lot more cowardly than Balthazar when we see him and rely on servants being the ones disguised while he remains safe.

[Loesh.4697]

That seems somewhat nonsensical to me, it difficult to explain the difference between a deity just being a thing and an embodiment or avatar in a concise way, but the short of it is there's a degree of personality that makes them fundamentally distinct. Gods and Goddesses in the human pantheon are more akin to the Four Immortals worshiped back home along the red river then say, Ragnaros being a literal manifestation of fire itself in World of Warcraft series. Balthazar is yes an animating force of primal elements, but he is also distinctly human with a personality, memories, history, he is not just the thing.

The easiest way to point this out is to look at the fact that Balthazar has a portfolio, this portfolio is why someone who perceives beings in the same way the Norn would might see human gods as very broad elements but it lacks the sort of nuance that their actual followers would attribute. The sort of tenants that Balthazar expouses with Zafirah and Vasberg run directly counter to a strict war god. He is protective as well as destructive, and you could argue that's just a facet of war but the Vasbergs outright arguing for peace would cause war to stop altogether. He has interests beyond just 'I AM CONFLICT', he wanted to wage war on the non-humans rather then promote constant infighting as a primal aspect of War like Khorne might.

You also have the elemental associations that reveal aspects of their personality and what they represent as well. Balthazar is also a god of fire, he represents the element and draws power from it in a sort of ritualistic way that might be associated with classical Shamanism or Animism, but these elements are not core aspects of their character but rather something they use to express their power. Abaddon was the god of water and it would stand to reason that Kormir would also be the god of water by extension, but for one reason or another the being that was Kormir decided water did not represent her and offered it to Lyssa, Lyssa who in turn decided that water was an acceptable gift and a worthy vessel of her power.

Like I said it's hard to concisely explain, but the gods have human personalities, they aren't just animated war, life, nature, chaos, etc.

[Mickey Frogeater.1470]

@"Loesh.4697" said:That seems somewhat nonsensical to me, it difficult to explain the difference between a deity just being a thing and an embodiment or avatar in a concise way, but the short of it is there's a degree of personality that makes them fundamentally distinct. Gods and Goddesses in the human pantheon are more akin to the Four Immortals worshiped back home along the red river then say, Ragnaros being a literal manifestation of fire itself in World of Warcraft series. Balthazar is yes an animating force of primal elements, but he is also distinctly human with a personality, memories, history, he is not just the thing.

The easiest way to point this out is to look at the fact that Balthazar has a portfolio, this portfolio is why someone who perceives beings in the same way the Norn would might see human gods as very broad elements but it lacks the sort of nuance that their actual followers would attribute. The sort of tenants that Balthazar expouses with Zafirah and Vasberg run directly counter to a strict war god. He is protective as well as destructive, and you could argue that's just a facet of war but the Vasbergs outright arguing for peace would cause war to stop altogether. He has interests beyond just 'I AM CONFLICT', he wanted to wage war on the non-humans rather then promote constant infighting as a primal aspect of War like Khorne might.

You also have the elemental associations that reveal aspects of their personality and what they represent as well. Balthazar is also a god of fire, he represents the element and draws power from it in a sort of ritualistic way that might be associated with classical Shamanism or Animism, but these elements are not core aspects of their character but rather something they use to express their power. Abaddon was the god of water and it would stand to reason that Kormir would also be the god of water by extension, but for one reason or another the being that was Kormir decided water did not represent her and offered it to Lyssa, Lyssa who in turn decided that water was an acceptable gift and a worthy vessel of her power.

Like I said it's hard to concisely explain, but the gods have human personalities, they aren't just animated war, life, nature, chaos, etc.

Balthazar looked more like a machine when he was exploding to death so he probably wasn't kidding when he saw himself as conflict(how a construct became a God eludes me). Kormir on the other hand was born Human.

Zafirah became a priest of Balthazar long after Balthazar was imprisoned. She followed what the Zaishen Order believed Balthazar to be. Canthan Lore concerning Kaolai shows that Balthazar murdered innocents and his "rare gestures of sportsmanship" stripped them of memory and forced them into duties that they likely desired freedom from(Kaolai spoke of Togo releasing him of duties and having no memory of who he is). Besides deciding to use deception he hasn't changed very much. He is still War incarnate.

[Loesh.4697]

Balthazar definitely was not a construct, he had a father, and we know from Guild Wars Utopia it's likely that the other gods were planned to have parents and families.

Again they embody aspects of the world, but have distinctly human components, the fact that he even has gestures of sportsmanship or started using deception after despising it at all practically spits in the face of him just being the embodiment of war as if that was the case he would have a set immutable mode of operation. Technically dragons also have this sort of intelligence but we've never really conversed with any save Mordromoth, and like end stage Balthazar and Dhuum he became vastly less interesting once he started going 'I AM POWER, I AM LIFE ITSELF!'

Heck, i'd even argue going from valuing honor and despising cowardice to engaging in treachery is a massive personality shift, saying that a god who embodied honor only had a 'small' change inflicted upon him when he began utilizing deception seems simplistic to me, to the point of it being bad storytelling, which it was then promptly regarded as by many people I know who were interested in the lore.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

I do hope Balthazar's personality change will be explained. I realise it was probably a retcon on ArenaNet's part in the first place, but I hope now they've realised the mistake and are taking steps to rectify it. One way to explain it would be the conclusion of his conflict with Menzies - Maybe Balthazar nearly lost because Menzies continued to use trickery and dishonourable ways and only once Balthazar did the same he prevailed, and the added effect of killing his brother shook him. Maybe Menzies got the final laugh in the end. "And so you have become me."

[Genesis.8572]

Though I suspect that the name War Eternal will stem from Kraalkatorik being stuck in an eternal battleground of the Mists, I would hope that this next episode also links back to Balthazar, and possibly answers about whether he had a divine replacement.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Balthazar being different in person to what Zafirah felt of him is the most interesting bit of it, really.

I'd agree. It was really good overall though, it added some meat to her character. She's had a really hard life.

I'm hoping we're building up to meeting the new god of war and it ends up giving her and the Zaishen new purpose. Maybe with the mist walking shenanigans Kralkatorrik is pulling we inadvertently end up catching up with the gods on their sojourn for a new world?

That'd be pretty wild.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

Whilst my hope for it is fading, I still want Kralkatorrik being in the Mists and being a threat to all of reality and not just Tyria as a consequence getting the attention of the Gods.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Loesh.4697" said:While I rolled my eyes at the sympathy for the devil angle of One Path Ends(Abaddon was such a monumentally evil god that painting him otherwise after his imprisonment seems...well it's not laughable, but would take more work then one episode could do.)

Original Abaddon lore:

Prior to his fall, Abaddon was the chief deity of water and wisdom. It is said that while his heart was still just and fair, he was a handsome, calm figure with imposing blue eyes - deep, like the colors of the sea. His generosity was only matched by his namesake, the ocean, which was both his dominion and said to be the physical manifestation of his blue wings. Princely amongst the gods, he was recognized as being the wisest amidst the Six, and his insight was not only welcome, but was also the most highly valued when the gods held council.

He was always painted as a "once good and kind god who fell from grace". Full translation of the lore. By the time of Nightfall, he was 100% a monumentally evil god. The Priest of Abaddon in that map is likely a jab at players who like to angelicize NF Abaddon and the mursaat.

@"Mickey Frogeater.1470" said:Balthazar looked more like a machine when he was exploding to death so he probably wasn't kidding when he saw himself as conflict(how a construct became a God eludes me). Kormir on the other hand was born Human.

Yet, Kormir is no longer human, even said to have died when she ascended to godhood. Abaddon also broke up upon death like Balthazar (honestly I don't see this "like a machine" bit; that was his skull; it was bone not metal). It's pretty subliminally suggested that the gods cease to be human or whatever they were once becoming gods.

Zafirah became a priest of Balthazar long after Balthazar was imprisoned. She followed what the Zaishen Order believed Balthazar to be. Canthan Lore concerning Kaolai shows that Balthazar murdered innocents and his "rare gestures of sportsmanship" stripped them of memory and forced them into duties that they likely desired freedom from(Kaolai spoke of Togo releasing him of duties and having no memory of who he is). Besides deciding to use deception he hasn't changed very much. He is still War incarnate.

I highly doubt that Balthazar stripped Kaolai of his memories. Keep in mind that Kaolai is over a thousand years old at that time; old people forget things. And you shouldn't twist words. The original wording is:

"But in a fit of anger, Balthazar slew Kaolai. Afterward, in a rare gesture of sportsmanship, the god ordered Kaolai inducted into Tahnnakai Temple."

Balthazar didn't intentionally kill Kaolai. He did so in a fit of anger. That "rare gesture of sportsmanship" was no doubt in remorse for that fit of anger resulting in Kaolai's death. Rewarding those he killed is likely why it was rare, not because he rarely had sportsmanship.

And his soul wouldn't be trapped there - after all, a new ritualist's soul being inducted mean Kaolai left. Kaolai could have left at any point that someone worthy of replacing him came about. It's unlikely that there was no elementalist spirit inducted in Tahnakkai Temple until 100 years before the events of Factions. Kaolai also never once mentions or hints at a desire of freedom.

[perilisk.1874]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:That's part of why so many lore folks I've seen felt like it should have been Menzies we fought in Path of Fire rather than Balthazar. Because "something unknown happened", and Balthazar's personality practically became Menzies'.

And people changing over time is not a contradiction. It's character development - this time, it just wasn't done properly, as we should have learned during PoF (even if not in the main story) why Balthazar's personality changed.

What if... Menzies never existed, and divine Balthazar just had a dissociative identity disorder resulting from being too mentally weak to handle the duality of protection and destruction inherent in war. Then, when stripped of his power, the identities merged, with the ego of Balthazar and the attitude of Menzies.

Oooh, twist.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

Whilst interesting, we do know Menzies exists/ed unless the Eternal Conflict was always a conflict between Balthazar and... Balthazar. Which would be pretty out there even by God standards. Also, we do know that Menzies acted on his own accord to aid Abaddon, whilst Balthazar was instrumental to locking Abaddon up.

Above all else I do hope that like Kormir taking over from the 100% evil Abaddon the "domain" as it were gets a rework. War is not nice, but it is sometimes necessary. War for the sake of war is bad, war for the sake of protecting home, family and ally is not.

[Genesis.8572]

I agree that the dissonance between the voice that Zafirah heard in herself and from the returned Balthazar is probably the most interesting contribution of this story. I am curious what will come of her character. In some regards, her character seemed to have been introduced to provide some closure to the botched Balthazar storyline in PoF. Now I am wondering if her introduction is actually a prelude for something else on the horizon for the God of War.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:That just adds to the contradiction in the narrative, doesn't it? Why did he even bother attacking outlying villages when he can harvest a lot of souls by attacking Amnoon? He even bother going to the Underworld for souls instead of harvesting Amnoon. I mean, he already has a camp right there, yet he didn't bother to march an army to the city.

There is no contradiction in the narrative. You're ignoring the very clear, very important fact.

Zafirah's story had shown that there is a contradiction and despite knowing that contradiction, she still followed Balthazar. I doubt that she would continue to follow if Balthazar decided to massacre the people of Amnoon to harvest their souls. To me, seeing that Zafirah followed Balthazar tells me that there is honor in what they are doing.

"I couldn’t deny my god. The whispers I had once felt within me grew in volume and urgency.""The Zaishen joined Balthazar’s Forged army and pushed into the Crystal Desert. We would destroy Kralkatorrik, and we would save Tyria from his vile Brand."

That was the goal embedded in Zafirah's mind, that was Balthazar's purpose. Now with that said, it contradicts with what Kormir shown the commander. Given that Kormir is the god of secrets, I suspect that she didn't show us everything.

Something unknown happened to Balthazar to change him. As he states in Heart of the Volcano:

Balthazar: I've learned there is no honor in war. But if you crave the glory of the fray...

And I do not believe that this is tied to the gods taking his divinity and imprisoning him, given the fact that in Facing the Truth, his argument for why he wants to fight the Elder Dragons is: "I do not avoid conflict... I am conflict." That is literally no different from Dhuum's lines in GW1: "HOW CAN YOU HOPE TO VANQUISH DEATH ITSELF?" and again in GW2: "YOU CANNOT VANQUISH DEATH ITSELF." The Six are not literal incarnations of what they have (or had) dominion over. Dwayna is not life incarnate, nor is Melandru nature incarnate. But when the gods go insane, they start believing they are.

As I've mentioned, Balthazar's action doesn't match his bravado. He says one thing, but do things very differently. He claimed to be "conflict" yet he avoided conflict with the city of Amnoon. He avoided conflict with Joko. He even avoided conflict with the Pact. If you haven't noticed, we're the one chasing him all over the place as if he's doing his best to avoid conflict. He got Aurene trapped when he killed the commander, yet he left her unharmed. What kind of god of conflict is that?

I am very suspicious of Kormir that we're simply being manipulated by feeding us lies and half-truths.

There is no contradiction that you keep proclaiming. The fact is simple: Something happened to Balthazar that altered his way of thinking. He became disheartened by everything he once stood for and taught - honor, courage, defending the innocent - and moved to do exactly what he hated, exactly what Menzies who had always acted as his opposite, behaved - using deception, treachery, killing innocents, and causing destruction.

That's part of why so many lore folks I've seen felt like it should have been Menzies we fought in Path of Fire rather than Balthazar. Because "something unknown happened", and Balthazar's personality practically became Menzies'.

And people changing over time is not a contradiction. It's character development - this time, it just wasn't done properly, as we should have learned during PoF (even if not in the main story) why Balthazar's personality changed.

I'm not arguing about Balthazar changing overtime. I'm pointing out the contradiction on what Balthazar said in his bravado and what Kormir said against what Balthazar actually did.

Yes, there are claims that Balthazar have killed innocents and displaced a lot of people camping outside Amnoon, yet he sent the Zaishen to recruit volunteers in that same camp. Why not just kill the refugees since he had killed innocents already? Why even bother trying to recruit if all he needs are souls for his Forged army? You see, this is what I'm talking about. He's killing innocents yet he's asking for volunteers.

Zafirah's testimony shows that she choose to follow, even when Balthazar was dead and supposedly betrayed her, she's still faithful to Balthazar. Yes, Balthazar did say "there is no honor in war" yet Zafirah seems to find honor in it. She really believe that the goal of Balthazar is to save Tyria. Balthazar was trying to kill Kral and the Pact is trying to kill Kral. Why is the Pact's action different from Balthazar's? The Pact wants Aurene to absorb the magic, how is that different from Balthazar absorbing the magic?

For Zafirah, Balthazar's and the Pact's goal are one and the same only differs in method. And that goal is to save Tyria.

[castlemanic.3198]

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Zafirah's story had shown that there is a contradiction and despite knowing that contradiction, she still followed Balthazar. I doubt that she would continue to follow if Balthazar decided to massacre the people of Amnoon to harvest their souls. To me, seeing that Zafirah followed Balthazar tells me that there is honor in what they are doing.

"I couldn’t deny my god. The whispers I had once felt within me grew in volume and urgency.""The Zaishen joined Balthazar’s Forged army and pushed into the Crystal Desert. We would destroy Kralkatorrik, and we would save Tyria from his vile Brand."

That was the goal embedded in Zafirah's mind, that was Balthazar's purpose. Now with that said, it contradicts with what Kormir shown the commander. Given that Kormir is the god of secrets, I suspect that she didn't show us everything.

except:

"The moment I saw him, I knew this was my god. I knew this was the one I had pledged my service to. The one who had given me my gift. The one who had brought purpose and meaning back to my life.

But something was wrong. He stood before me, tall and imposing, power radiating from his physical form...but this power was different from what I had felt all those years before. His voice dissonant from the one I heard within me."

In her heart, she knew that there was something different, something wrong with the Balthazar that she saw. She even says this:

"Still, I was blindsided when he betrayed us.

I tried to rationalize. I was even successful, for a time."

She saw the contradiction and ignored it. That is NOT the same thing as there being something inherently honorable about what happened and what balthazar did. She actively said that she ignored the truth, she rationalized the betrayal in order to not think about the contradiction between Balthazar's tenets and what he had become.

btw, Balthazar wasn't doing it for the sake of the world

Character name: I've stopped you from destroying Tyria. That's "something."Balthazar: You've stopped nothing. My warbeast has weakened Kralkatorrik.Balthazar: All I need to finish the task is the scion trapped behind me.

He actively doesn't care what happens to tyria. Nothing honorable about that.

As I've mentioned, Balthazar's action doesn't match his bravado. He says one thing, but do things very differently. He claimed to be "conflict" yet he avoided conflict with the city of Amnoon. He avoided conflict with Joko. He even avoided conflict with the Pact. If you haven't noticed, we're the one chasing him all over the place as if he's doing his best to avoid conflict. He got Aurene trapped when he killed the commander, yet he left her unharmed. What kind of god of conflict is that?

I am very suspicious of Kormir that we're simply being manipulated by feeding us lies and half-truths.

I feel like the answer is obvious to this. Balthazar isn't 'running away from us'. Balthazar was seeking every option he could to regain power.

He first used Lyssa's mirror to become 'lazarus', getting the support of the white mantle. The next time we see him, he takes omadd's machine and drains the power from jormag and primordus.

He then heads siren's landing, where we presumably gets his sword that he uses throughout path of fire. By this point, the white mantle and the mercenaries are taken care of so he doesn't need them anymore.

His next destination is the crystal desert. His first few missions seem to have been methods of gaining reinforcements, using the zaishen and then the methods of creating the exalted to create his forged army (and abandoning joko in the domain of the lost).

then he tries to get vlast, which fails because vlast sacrifices himself to keep the commander alive.

his next step? getting branded crystals and the creation of a powerful war engine that he eventually uses against kralkatorrik.

after that, the commander wanders about the crystal desert for a bit (and meeting kormir along the way), then we come across balthazar who ambushes us and KILLS US and captures aurene.

and btw, the reason he CAPTURES aurene and doesn't kill her is that aurene is the 'ammo' to previous war engine that he uses against Kralkatorrik. just to copy the line i used above:

Balthazar: You've stopped nothing. My warbeast has weakened Kralkatorrik.Balthazar: All I need to finish the task is the scion trapped behind me.

Everything he's done on tyria has been to kill elder dragons and capture their power, however direct or indirect the route was. Yes, he showed up at aurene's chamber, and tried to get on the commander's good side in order to enlist the dude WHO KILLED TWO ELDER DRAGONS by this point.

Everything he's done has been in pursuit of the conflicts that would give him power. He got power from jormag and primordus, and then he sought to get the power of Kralkatorrik.

He's not been running away from us, we've been the ones chasing him to STOP him from achieving his goals.

I'm not arguing about Balthazar changing overtime. I'm pointing out the contradiction on what Balthazar said in his bravado and what Kormir said against what Balthazar actually did.

Yes, there are claims that Balthazar have killed innocents and displaced a lot of people camping outside Amnoon, yet he sent the Zaishen to recruit volunteers in that same camp. Why not just kill the refugees since he had killed innocents already? Why even bother trying to recruit if all he needs are souls for his Forged army? You see, this is what I'm talking about. He's killing innocents yet he's asking for volunteers.

Anyone who is on your side is someone who's not getting in your way, and anyone who is on your side is another person that can prevent others from getting in your way. seems pretty simple to me. If i had an option between killing people or getting them on my side, i'd get them on my side.

It's also a show of force. "Look how powerful my armies are, join me and come under my protection" is a legitimate tactic that can be used to get people to come to your side. Show them that there's nothing they can do to resist and then get them to help you. It's actually what the zaishen in the camp are doing to recruit people. "Our god is HERE" has the underlying tone that he has power that the other gods do not, a power that will help them and protect them but only if they join his forces.

Zafirah's testimony shows that she choose to follow, even when Balthazar was dead and supposedly betrayed her, she's still faithful to Balthazar. Yes, Balthazar did say "there is no honor in war" yet Zafirah seems to find honor in it.I feel like you missed this part:

"I wanted revenge.

And I told the commander that I wanted it. On the Pact. On Balthazar’s enemies. They had killed my brothers and sisters, and the god that gave me purpose.

Later, much later, I realized this wasn’t exactly true. While I did want revenge, it wasn’t against the commander, or the Pact, or even my god’s enemies.

I wanted revenge against my god himself. Against Balthazar.

Balthazar killed the Zaishen, my brothers and sisters. Balthazar sent us to die. Sent us to fight the Crystal Dragon. To give our lives for a war that could only end in Tyria’s destruction."

She wasn't faithful to balthazar after he died, she was angry AT balthazar for betraying his followers, but she didn't know how to frame it yet because she believed her purpose was tied to balthazar's will, not balthazar's tenets.

She really believe that the goal of Balthazar is to save Tyria. Balthazar was trying to kill Kral and the Pact is trying to kill Kral. Why is the Pact's action different from Balthazar's? The Pact wants Aurene to absorb the magic, how is that different from Balthazar absorbing the magic?

The difference is this:

Sadizi: The millennia-long Elder Dragon cycle is one of feast and famine. Ravenous, they rise. Sated, they sleep.Sadizi: Glint and the Forgotten set out to break this cycle of extremes and to restore true balance.Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.Sadizi: Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose.

I bolded the important part. Balthazar didn't want to share magic, he didn't even want to stay on tyria. He wanted to leave tyria with all the magic that he had for the purpose of revenge:

Balthazar: Your kind will not stop my campaign.Character name: Balthazar! What you're doing... You'll destroy Tyria!Balthazar: Your home is a trivial concern.Balthazar: They abated me, dimmed my light... But they will see me now.

so ultimately, this

For Zafirah, Balthazar's and the Pact's goal are one and the same only differs in method. And that goal is to save Tyria.

is absolutely not true.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Zafirah's story had shown that there is a contradiction and despite knowing that contradiction, she still followed Balthazar. I doubt that she would continue to follow if Balthazar decided to massacre the people of Amnoon to harvest their souls. To me, seeing that Zafirah followed Balthazar tells me that there is honor in what they are doing.

"I couldn’t deny my god. The whispers I had once felt within me grew in volume and urgency.""The Zaishen joined Balthazar’s Forged army and pushed into the Crystal Desert. We would destroy Kralkatorrik, and we would save Tyria from his vile Brand."

That was the goal embedded in Zafirah's mind, that was Balthazar's purpose. Now with that said, it contradicts with what Kormir shown the commander. Given that Kormir is the god of secrets, I suspect that she didn't show us everything.

except:

"The moment I saw him, I knew this was my god. I knew this was the one I had pledged my service to. The one who had given me my gift. The one who had brought purpose and meaning back to my life.

But something was wrong. He stood before me, tall and imposing, power radiating from his physical form...but this power was different from what I had felt all those years before. His voice dissonant from the one I heard within me."

In her heart, she knew that there was something different, something wrong with the Balthazar that she saw. She even says this:

"Still, I was blindsided when he betrayed us.

I tried to rationalize. I was even successful, for a time."

She saw the contradiction and

ignored it.

That is NOT the same thing as there being something inherently honorable about what happened and what balthazar did. She actively said that she ignored the truth, she rationalized the betrayal in order to not think about the contradiction between Balthazar's tenets and what he had become.

btw, Balthazar wasn't doing it for the sake of the world

Character name: I've stopped you from destroying Tyria. That's "something."Balthazar: You've stopped nothing. My warbeast has weakened Kralkatorrik.Balthazar: All I need to finish the task is the scion trapped behind me.

He actively doesn't care what happens to tyria. Nothing honorable about that.

That further support my argument that a contradiction do exists. The fact that she chose to ignore it validated the existence of the contradiction.

If there is no honor on what Balthazar did, then it makes zero sense for Zafirah to remain faithful after we killed the fallen god. She should have started questioning her faith the first time she felt that there's something wrong.

As I've mentioned, Balthazar's action doesn't match his

bravado

. He says one thing, but do things very differently. He claimed to be "conflict" yet he avoided conflict with the city of Amnoon. He avoided conflict with Joko. He even avoided conflict with the Pact. If you haven't noticed, we're the one chasing him all over the place as if he's doing his best to avoid conflict. He got Aurene trapped when he killed the commander, yet he left her unharmed. What kind of god of conflict is that?

I am very suspicious of Kormir that we're simply being manipulated by feeding us lies and half-truths.

I feel like the answer is obvious to this. Balthazar isn't 'running away from us'. Balthazar was seeking every option he could to regain power.

He first used Lyssa's mirror to become 'lazarus', getting the support of the white mantle. The next time we see him, he takes omadd's machine and drains the power from jormag and primordus.

After confronting him, as Lazarus he ran away.Again he ran way from that volcano.

He then heads siren's landing, where we presumably gets his sword that he uses throughout path of fire. By this point, the white mantle and the mercenaries are taken care of so he doesn't need them anymore.

Again, he ran away.

His next destination is the crystal desert. His first few missions seem to have been methods of gaining reinforcements, using the zaishen and then the methods of creating the exalted to create his forged army (and abandoning joko in the domain of the lost).

then he tries to get vlast, which fails because vlast sacrifices himself to keep the commander alive.

Again, he ran away.

his next step? getting branded crystals and the creation of a powerful war engine that he eventually uses against kralkatorrik.

after that, the commander wanders about the crystal desert for a bit (and meeting kormir along the way), then we come across balthazar who ambushes us and KILLS US and captures aurene.

and btw, the reason he CAPTURES aurene and doesn't kill her is that aurene is the 'ammo' to previous war engine that he uses against Kralkatorrik. just to copy the line i used above:

Balthazar: You've stopped nothing. My warbeast has weakened Kralkatorrik.Balthazar: All I need to finish the task is the scion trapped behind me.

Kormir showed us that Balthazar claimed to be "conflict", yet up to this point he'd ran away many times avoiding conflict.

Everything he's done on tyria has been to kill elder dragons and capture their power, however direct or indirect the route was. Yes, he showed up at aurene's chamber, and tried to get on the commander's good side in order to enlist the dude WHO KILLED TWO ELDER DRAGONS by this point.

Everything he's done has been in pursuit of the conflicts that would give him power. He got power from jormag and primordus, and then he sought to get the power of Kralkatorrik.

He's not been running away from us, we've been the ones chasing him to STOP him from achieving his goals.

When you confronted him, right there is conflict and the only way to resolve that conflict is to get rid of us, yet he chose to ran away instead of finishing us off. To me, that's a major contradiction to his claim "I am conflict".

I'm not arguing about Balthazar changing overtime. I'm pointing out the contradiction on what Balthazar said in his

bravado

and what Kormir said against what Balthazar actually did.

Yes, there are claims that Balthazar have killed innocents and displaced a lot of people camping outside Amnoon, yet he sent the Zaishen to recruit volunteers in that same camp. Why not just kill the refugees since he had killed innocents already? Why even bother trying to recruit if all he needs are souls for his Forged army? You see, this is what I'm talking about. He's killing innocents yet he's asking for volunteers.

Anyone who is on your side is someone who's not getting in your way, and anyone who is on your side is another person that can prevent others from getting in your way. seems pretty simple to me. If i had an option between killing people or getting them on my side, i'd get them on my side.

You're missing the point. Balthazar wants a Forged army so he needed souls. Instead of harvesting the souls from Amnoon, he bargained with Joko to get to the Underworld.

The question is why is that? He already setup a fort near Amnoon yet he left that city alone. That would have been an easy source of souls if he really do not care about Tyria anymore. Someone argued that he's already going around killing innocents for his army, yet Amnoon still stands? Major head scratcher there.

It's also a show of force. "Look how powerful my armies are, join me and come under my protection" is a legitimate tactic that can be used to get people to come to your side. Show them that there's nothing they can do to resist and then get them to help you. It's actually what the zaishen in the camp are doing to recruit people. "Our god is HERE" has the underlying tone that he has power that the other gods do not, a power that will help them and protect them but only if they join his forces.

That makes zero sense. Why try to recruit farmers and villagers if all Balthazar need is their soul for his Forged army? Those Zaishen could have easily wiped out the refugees to harvest their soul. Yet they waste their time trying to convince them.

Zafirah's testimony shows that she choose to follow, even when Balthazar was dead and supposedly betrayed her, she's still faithful to Balthazar. Yes, Balthazar did say "there is no honor in war" yet Zafirah seems to find honor in it.I feel like you missed this part:

"I wanted revenge.

And I told the commander that I wanted it. On the Pact. On Balthazar’s enemies. They had killed my brothers and sisters, and the god that gave me purpose.

Later, much later, I realized this wasn’t exactly true. While I did want revenge, it wasn’t against the commander, or the Pact, or even my god’s enemies.

I wanted revenge against my god himself. Against Balthazar.

Balthazar killed the Zaishen, my brothers and sisters. Balthazar sent us to die. Sent us to fight the Crystal Dragon. To give our lives for a war that could only end in Tyria’s destruction."

She wasn't faithful to balthazar after he died, she was angry AT balthazar for betraying his followers, but she didn't know how to frame it yet because she believed her purpose was tied to balthazar's will, not balthazar's tenets.

Oh she is still faithful. When fighting against her during the From the Ashes, she wanted to continue Balthazar's work.

She only changed her mind after the commander showed her mercy.

She really believe that the goal of Balthazar is to save Tyria. Balthazar was trying to kill Kral and the Pact is trying to kill Kral. Why is the Pact's action different from Balthazar's? The Pact wants Aurene to absorb the magic, how is that different from Balthazar absorbing the magic?

The difference is this:

Sadizi: The millennia-long Elder Dragon cycle is one of feast and famine. Ravenous, they rise. Sated, they sleep.Sadizi: Glint and the Forgotten set out to break this cycle of extremes and to restore true balance.Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.Sadizi:

We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.

Sadizi: Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose.

First of all, the "void" when eliminating the ED is just a belief. There were no evidence that this void "caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin". Either the Dev never implemented this "collapse" or it's not actually happening.

Second, Aurene stabilizing the cycle is just based on hope. No concrete evidence that Aurene can actually stabilize the cycle.

Third, filling the vacancies is nothing but a theory. ED had horded magic before, yet the world didn't end. To me, nature and the ED has a way to check and balance eachother if left alone. It is when the people of Tyria started to meddle with nature that things get out of whack. Glint and the Forgotten had no business meddling with the cycle of extreme.

Lastly, Glint is seeking to balance something that is already balanced to begin with. Think about it, when Zhaitan and Mord died, it upset the balance which means it was perfectly balanced when they existed. The one who started with all these is Trahearn and his Wild Hunt. Even when Primo stirred when Abaddon died, Tyria was peaceful for 250 years.

So I'm sorry if I don't really believe any of that.

I bolded the important part. Balthazar didn't want to share magic, he didn't even want to stay on tyria. He wanted to leave tyria with all the magic that he had for the purpose of revenge:

Balthazar: Your kind will not stop my campaign.Character name: Balthazar! What you're doing... You'll destroy Tyria!Balthazar: Your home is a trivial concern.Balthazar: They abated me, dimmed my light... But they will see me now.

so ultimately, this

That's the thing. What Balthazar say in his bravado is not what he's doing. If anyone knows how to deal with the dragons, it would be the gods since they've been around the longest. Balthazar knows what needs to be done. So what if Balthazar hoarded all the magic and left, I don't see that as a bad thing.

For Zafirah, Balthazar's and the Pact's goal are one and the same only differs in method. And that goal is to save Tyria.

is absolutely not true.

I'm only basing it on what she said; "We would destroy Kralkatorrik, and we would save Tyria from his vile Brand." That is no different than what the Pact and the commander was trying to accomplish. The commander said do also in From the Ashes; "I'm working on a way to kill Kralkatorrik–without disrupting his magic. Help me finish it. Please."