Consume Plasma --> BROKEN!!?? <--

[Quadox.7834]

Consume plasma has been the strongest stolen skill since 2012.

Lets look at the stolen skills:

• Mace crack- melee, removed with stunbreak

• Essence sap - needs target, can be dodged (though 2nd strongest stolen skill)

• Whirling axe - melee, long channel that you can get damaged in.

• Throw gunk - small radius, weak effect.

• Healing seed - stationary, has cooldown.

• Blinding tuft - short duration, s/d thief doesn't benefit much from stealth, harder to get because you need to steal on a thief, only benefits the opener/escape not mid combat.

• Ice shard - melee, can be cleansed

• Skull fear - long channel, can be dodged.

Stolen skills are either attacks that need to hit a target (and either melee or slow cast), or defense with limited useability and cooldown like healing seed. This means that the thief must take risks and be think about it in order to get value out of the 2nd stolen still from improv, by going in melee range or doing a slow channel for instance. With plasma the thief just steals, jumps behind LoS, and uses it twice. Because it doesn't need to hit a target, doesn't need LoS, doesn't need melee, doesn't need to be spread out because it stacks so well. It scales too much with improv + sleight of hand + swindler's equilibrium.

Doesn't matter the situation, thieves will steal on the mesmer to get the boons, any opportunity cost is lost because it is always worth it. Playing a squishier build (e.g. power chrono) feels like playing "the floor is lava" vs top thief (try facing sind, pain, etc).

Consume plasma has recently garnered attention due to boonbeast, and surprise it is broken there as well. Just Imagine if there was a utility that gave all boons in the game, on a <20 second cooldown.

Even thematically, why does mesmer stolen skill give boons while guardian's gives daze and engi's gives etheral field? That seems backwards.

Now I am aware some will take this an april fools joke because it contains the words "thief", "broken", and "nerf". This thread is about one skill, consume plasma, not about the entire class.

(Btw, do you like the clickbait title?)

[TorQ.7041]

You meant this is the only edge a thief has over any class and you want to remove that too?

[Safandula.8723]

I can agree some boons needs reduction on duration, but as TorQ said ^

[Crab Fear.1624]

@"Safandula.8723" said:I can agree some boons needs reduction on duration, but as TorQ said ^

What boons need reduction? Protection and stability boons got reduced less than half their original times in the pvp version. the only thing the mesmer main might have to really complain about is the 2.5 secs of resistance.

Thief has no real practical way to enhance the length of the boons like boon best, and they have to successfully steal from a very evasive class.

It's not broken.Thematically, maybe the phantasms are the same material as ghost's, and MAYBE that's how mesmer's craft them (phantasms). Also it seems beside alacrity, mesmer's have some way or another to every boon in the game

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plasma

I imagine thieves are back to taking care of business with the mesmers when post like these come out.

Feelsgoodman

[Quadox.7834]

@"Safandula.8723" said:I can agree some boons needs reduction on duration, but as TorQ said ^

To both: You calling it "the only edge thief has" proves that it is much stronger than the other stolen skills, pretty much reinforcing my point. This thread is not about thief's general relative power level, I have advocated numerous times for nerfs to the other professions.

[Safandula.8723]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"Safandula.8723" said:I can agree some boons needs reduction on duration, but as TorQ said ^

To both: You calling it "the only edge thief has" proves that it is much stronger than the other stolen skills, pretty much reinforcing my point.

Cuz it is, I don't say no. Sadly it's needed to be like that.

[BlackTruth.6813]

Even if other classes get nerfed at the same time, this should probably ONLY get shaved. Mesmer should have the ability to not get caught by steal even though steal is instant cast (Like seriously, people actually think Thief still counters Mesmer in 2019? You can actually catch Thieves with instant cast as well).

They BETTER be rewarded if they land steal on an evade spam instant cast class. You take this away from Thief? You better compensate them with something.

I don't mind having this nerfed because it potentially nerfs boonbeast plasma as well, but thief will need compensation if it does get gutted, at least for the Mesmer steal.

And just because people "think" it's an edge, doesn't mean it's THAT bad in design. Literally there are worse things in the game (endurance on might gain, high skill cap pet + evade spam, evade spam + z-axis teleports + instant cast)

The plasma steal doesn't compare to ANY of the evils that I mentioned because at least that can get corrupted and doesn't really make one of the lowest HP pool that has legitimate openings in their evades tanky enough vs. cleave damage in team fights for example.

[Quadox.7834]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@"Safandula.8723" said:I can agree some boons needs reduction on duration, but as TorQ said ^

What boons need reduction? Protection and stability boons got reduced less than half their original times in the pvp version. the only thing the mesmer main might have to really complain about is the 2.5 secs of resistance.

Thief has no real practical way to enhance the length of the boons like boon best, and they have to successfully steal from a very evasive class.Thief "extends the boons" by getting lower cooldown on plasma with improv+swindler's+sleight of hand. the end result is the same - more boons. Boonbeast has boon extension instead.

It's not broken.Thematically, maybe the phantasms are the same material as ghost's, and MAYBE that's how mesmer's craft them (phantasms).Yes, the tooltip/name is okay. But the point is that the

effect

of the plasma (boons) is not set in stone. Nothing tells us that plasma couldn't give chaos armor, distortion, or something else for example.

Also it seems beside alacrity, mesmer's have some way or another to every boon in the game

If it was "gain random boons" I would agree more, that is the theme of the chaos traitline. Also, when plasma was added in 2012, mesmer didn't have boons like it does now (bountiful dissillusionment didn't exist for example). It has not been a boon-heavy class historically. At the end of the day though, we can argue all day about how well it fits mesmer but gameplay and that is where the heart of my argument lies.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plasma

I imagine thieves are back to taking care of business with the mesmers when post like these come out.

FeelsgoodmanDon't know what this means.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

I imagine thieves are back to taking care of business with the mesmers when post like these come out.

FeelsgoodmanDon't know what this means.

It seems obvious.

[Quadox.7834]

@"BlackTruth.6813" said:Even if other classes get nerfed at the same time, this should probably ONLY get shaved.I would like if it was like other stolen skills, i.e. something you actually have to think about. Maybe something with aoe damage for killing clones (just an example).Mesmer should have the ability to not get caught by steal even though steal is instant castWhat do you mean?(Like seriously, people actually think Thief still counters Mesmer in 2019? You can actually catch Thieves with instant cast as well).

They BETTER be rewarded if they land steal on an evade spam instant cast class. You take this away from Thief? You better compensate them with something.This means that mesmer punished for something which is inherently chance-based and impossible to consistently predict unless you can read minds. It really tells us alot about how much of gw2 is based around bullshit. When a class relies on hitting an instant 1200 range skill and it is still very possible to miss due to the defense spam. Imagine this in any other game. And yes I would love it if thief was less of a onetrick based on traiting steal as much as possible, I think that would be more fun both for the thief player and the opponent.

I don't mind having this nerfed because it potentially nerfs boonbeast plasma as well, but thief will need compensation if it does get gutted, at least for the Mesmer steal.That's the crux, if thief would only be good when there is a mesmer in the enemy team something would obviously be very wrong. Defending plasma because it is "the only thing thief has" will limit how strong thief can be in the general case because as soon as it is strong in one situation (vs no mes) it would become too strong in the other situation (vs mes). It is the same reason why you shouldn't keep OP traits/skills that "carry" a class because it means that the class becomes useless when it doesn't use that particular overpowered thing.

And just because people "think" it's an edge, doesn't mean it's THAT bad in design. Literally there are worse things in the game (endurance on might gain, high skill cap pet + evade spam, evade spam + z-axis teleports + instant cast).There are other bad things in the game, which there are other threads for.

[Quadox.7834]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

I imagine thieves are back to taking care of business with the mesmers when post like these come out.

FeelsgoodmanDon't know what this means.

It seems obvious.

Explain then.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

mes is gonna lose to teef anyways. might as well make it faster :-P

[st elmos fire.2987]

I like the "playing floor is lava" description. :D so true.

[Airdive.2613]

Imagine spending a whole second to consume plasma in order to get some boons, half of which can't be utilized by a thief anyway. Yeah, sounds broken.Also, there's boon rip/corruption.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Airdive.2613 said:Imagine spending a whole second to consume plasma in order to get some boons, half of which can't be utilized by a thief anyway. Yeah, sounds broken.Also, there's boon rip/corruption.

What boons can't be used by thief? As for the whole second, true, except anyone with 1 day of playing thief will disengage to consume ecto.

Will use the boon rip/corruption argument when someone wants chaos nerfed and I guess boonbeasts will do it as well. B)

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:mes is gonna lose to teef anyways. might as well make it faster :-P

You're half joking but that arguments gets thrown around by thieves, so to give a comparison I think it would be as fairer if rangers have an effect that make them deal double damage against thief. Who would care? They would lose anyway!

[BlackTruth.6813]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"BlackTruth.6813" said:Even if other classes get nerfed at the same time, this should probably ONLY get shaved.I would like if it was like other stolen skills, i.e. something you actually have to think about. Maybe something with aoe damage for killing clones (just an example).Mesmer should have the ability to not get caught by steal even though steal is instant castWhat do you mean?(Like seriously, people actually think Thief still counters Mesmer in 2019? You can actually catch Thieves with instant cast as well).

They BETTER be rewarded if they land steal on an evade spam instant cast class. You take this away from Thief? You better compensate them with something.This means that mesmer

punished

for something which is inherently chance-based and impossible to consistently predict unless you can read minds. It really tells us alot about how much of gw2 is based around kitten. When a class relies on hitting an instant 1200 range skill and it is still very possible to miss due to the defense spam. Imagine this in any other game. And yes I would love it if thief was less of a onetrick based on traiting steal as much as possible, I think that would be more fun both for the thief player and the opponent.

I don't mind having this nerfed because it potentially nerfs boonbeast plasma as well, but thief will need compensation if it does get gutted, at least for the Mesmer steal.That's the crux, if thief would only be good when there is a mesmer in the enemy team something would obviously be very wrong. Defending plasma because it is "the only thing thief has" will limit how strong thief can be in the general case because as soon as it is strong in one situation (vs no mes) it would become

too

strong in the other situation (vs mes). It is the same reason why you shouldn't keep OP traits/skills that "carry" a class because it means that the class becomes useless when it doesn't use that particular overpowered thing.

And just because people "think" it's an edge, doesn't mean it's THAT bad in design. Literally there are worse things in the game (endurance on might gain, high skill cap pet + evade spam, evade spam + z-axis teleports + instant cast).There are other bad things in the game, which there are other threads for.

Well assuming that they nerf plasma, it's w/e it will probably feel like a shave. But here's the catch, I REALLY doubt thief is "only strong" even when the enemy team has a mesmer because nowadays you could also shatter at the end of thief dodges if you build + play it right. Literally Thief CAN'T layer invulns (Like when S/D's dodge frame ends, most of the time Thief can't just pop an endure pain or distortion or w/e invuln) like Mesmer does. They can be hard even if the other team has a Mesmer, plasma by itself doesn't allow Thief to 1v9, there are better 1v9 mechanics in all honesty...

Plasma can go and it probably won't change much, but what compensation could Thief get I wonder.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

The entire point of consume plasma is so that mesmers have a counter. The fact that a top 250 mirage could beat the a top 250 thief 1v1 pre-nerf just shows how completely busted mirage was as a spec.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@BlackTruth.6813 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@BlackTruth.6813 said:Even if other classes get nerfed at the same time, this should probably ONLY get shaved.I would like if it was like other stolen skills, i.e. something you actually have to think about. Maybe something with aoe damage for killing clones (just an example).Mesmer should have the ability to not get caught by steal even though steal is instant castWhat do you mean?(Like seriously, people actually think Thief still counters Mesmer in 2019? You can actually catch Thieves with instant cast as well).

They BETTER be rewarded if they land steal on an evade spam instant cast class. You take this away from Thief? You better compensate them with something.This means that mesmer

punished

for something which is inherently chance-based and impossible to consistently predict unless you can read minds. It really tells us alot about how much of gw2 is based around kitten. When a class relies on hitting an instant 1200 range skill and it is still very possible to miss due to the defense spam. Imagine this in any other game. And yes I would love it if thief was less of a onetrick based on traiting steal as much as possible, I think that would be more fun both for the thief player and the opponent.

I don't mind having this nerfed because it potentially nerfs boonbeast plasma as well, but thief will need compensation if it does get gutted, at least for the Mesmer steal.That's the crux, if thief would only be good when there is a mesmer in the enemy team something would obviously be very wrong. Defending plasma because it is "the only thing thief has" will limit how strong thief can be in the general case because as soon as it is strong in one situation (vs no mes) it would become

too

strong in the other situation (vs mes). It is the same reason why you shouldn't keep OP traits/skills that "carry" a class because it means that the class becomes useless when it doesn't use that particular overpowered thing.

And just because people "think" it's an edge, doesn't mean it's THAT bad in design. Literally there are worse things in the game (endurance on might gain, high skill cap pet + evade spam, evade spam + z-axis teleports + instant cast).There are other bad things in the game, which there are other threads for.

Well assuming that they nerf plasma, it's w/e it will probably feel like a shave. But here's the catch, I REALLY doubt thief is "only strong" even when the enemy team has a mesmer because nowadays you could also shatter at the end of thief dodges if you build + play it right. Literally Thief CAN'T layer invulns (Like when S/D's dodge frame ends, most of the time Thief can't just pop an endure pain or distortion or w/e invuln) like Mesmer does. They can be hard even if the other team has a Mesmer, plasma by itself doesn't allow Thief to 1v9, there are better 1v9 mechanics in all honesty...

Plasma can go and it probably won't change much, but what compensation could Thief get I wonder.

they have already nerfed plasma. get educated on the topic then post about it

[Crab Fear.1624]

You must have lost 1 v 1 to thief. Mirage is not so immortal now, all other mesmer forms were already thief food. Thief has plenty of counters to.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I think it would be as fairer if rangers have an effect that make them deal double damage against thief.its called sic em and 25 might.

[BlackTruth.6813]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@BlackTruth.6813 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@BlackTruth.6813 said:Even if other classes get nerfed at the same time, this should probably ONLY get shaved.I would like if it was like other stolen skills, i.e. something you actually have to think about. Maybe something with aoe damage for killing clones (just an example).Mesmer should have the ability to not get caught by steal even though steal is instant castWhat do you mean?(Like seriously, people actually think Thief still counters Mesmer in 2019? You can actually catch Thieves with instant cast as well).

They BETTER be rewarded if they land steal on an evade spam instant cast class. You take this away from Thief? You better compensate them with something.This means that mesmer

punished

for something which is inherently chance-based and impossible to consistently predict unless you can read minds. It really tells us alot about how much of gw2 is based around kitten. When a class relies on hitting an instant 1200 range skill and it is still very possible to miss due to the defense spam. Imagine this in any other game. And yes I would love it if thief was less of a onetrick based on traiting steal as much as possible, I think that would be more fun both for the thief player and the opponent.

I don't mind having this nerfed because it potentially nerfs boonbeast plasma as well, but thief will need compensation if it does get gutted, at least for the Mesmer steal.That's the crux, if thief would only be good when there is a mesmer in the enemy team something would obviously be very wrong. Defending plasma because it is "the only thing thief has" will limit how strong thief can be in the general case because as soon as it is strong in one situation (vs no mes) it would become

too

strong in the other situation (vs mes). It is the same reason why you shouldn't keep OP traits/skills that "carry" a class because it means that the class becomes useless when it doesn't use that particular overpowered thing.

And just because people "think" it's an edge, doesn't mean it's THAT bad in design. Literally there are worse things in the game (endurance on might gain, high skill cap pet + evade spam, evade spam + z-axis teleports + instant cast).There are other bad things in the game, which there are other threads for.

Well assuming that they nerf plasma, it's w/e it will probably feel like a shave. But here's the catch, I REALLY doubt thief is "only strong" even when the enemy team has a mesmer because nowadays you could also shatter at the end of thief dodges if you build + play it right. Literally Thief CAN'T layer invulns (Like when S/D's dodge frame ends, most of the time Thief can't just pop an endure pain or distortion or w/e invuln) like Mesmer does. They can be hard even if the other team has a Mesmer, plasma by itself doesn't allow Thief to 1v9, there are better 1v9 mechanics in all honesty...

Plasma can go and it probably won't change much, but what compensation could Thief get I wonder.

they have already nerfed plasma. get educated on the topic then post about it

LOL, 4 seconds protection and 2 seconds stability and it has a thread about it x.x?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Plasma_(Plasma)

That actually looks bad lmao

Okay that means they can't touch it at all.. but probably just remove it from boonbeast then.

[Quadox.7834]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:You must have lost 1 v 1 to thief. Mirage is not so immortal now, all other mesmer forms were already thief food. Thief has plenty of counters to.

Thanks for the irrelevent comment

[Quadox.7834]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:The entire point of consume plasma is so that mesmers have a counter. The fact that a top 250 mirage could beat the a top 250 thief 1v1 pre-nerf just shows how completely busted mirage was as a spec.

No, that is clearly not the reason consume plasma was added. That might at least have made 1% sense if plasma had been added with PoF for example, but it wasn't.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I think it would be as fairer if rangers have an effect that make them deal double damage against thief.its called sic em and 25 might.

Except that affects all professions the same way. Nice try tho.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:The entire point of consume plasma is so that mesmers have a counter. The fact that a top 250 mirage could beat the a top 250 thief 1v1 pre-nerf just shows how completely busted mirage was as a spec.

No, that is clearly not the reason consume plasma was added. That might at least have made 1% sense if plasma had been added with PoF for example, but it wasn't.

Thief has always supposed to been able to pressure mesmers with consume.

Your rationale means exactly the opposite of what you think it means.