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Why did Anet waste so much time on Kralkatorrik?


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@zityz.6089 said:I think Kralkatorrik is one of the better dragons as he actually feels like a force that seems worth the title of elder dragon. Zhaitan was basically allergic to fireworks, and mordremoth, while interesting , was killed by mental breakdown. At least kralk feels like he's a unstoppable force.

Actually Kralkatorrik almost got killed twice by EoD and Balthazar. He was nowhere close to unstoppable.

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@"Slowpokeking.8720" said:Zhaitan's goal was very obvious, to eliminate all the living and force everyone to live under his rule of undeath.

That's a misinterpretation since Zhaitan's endgame didn't involve any "ruling" at all. His purpose was the exact same as any other Elder Dragon. That was to consume all magic through living things and then go back to slumber, an endless cycle of death and rebirth which is a pretty common trope in fantasy. His army of zombies had some structure but that was only temporary to serve his expansion.

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@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@"Slowpokeking.8720" said:Zhaitan's goal was very obvious, to eliminate all the living and force everyone to live under his rule of undeath.

That's a misinterpretation since Zhaitan's endgame didn't involve any "ruling" at all. His purpose was the exact same as any other Elder Dragon. That was to consume all magic through living things and then go back to slumber, an endless cycle of death and rebirth which is a pretty common trope in fantasy. His army of zombies had some structure but that was only temporary to serve his expansion.

Zhaitan's Risen has a very strict structure compare to other dragons, he also grants his minions a lot of intelligence. It works like a twisted kingdom under his rule. Especially in the novel, those risen crew had twisted feeling against their former living friends.

Most of Zhaitan's doing are not about consuming magic, but destroy the living and rule them, he also clearly targets at those who oppose him.

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@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:In defense of Kralkatorrik, he was the one Elder Dragon where Anet actually pulled off the Eldritch Horror trope. Zhaitan was epic but rather a linear "boss" we went up to and beat with a metaphorical stick. The stakes were high but at the same time it felt like a regular heroes joining to save the day thing, not the initial proposal that Elder Dragons would be unfathomable.

Mordremoth was awesome in his own right, but he not only had A LOT of dialogue for something who was supposedly way above and beyond us, he was quite "swiftly" dealt with in comparison to his own champion Scarlet (who had her own problems but, was probably the most epic villain we had so far).

Kralkatorrik got spotlight in PoF and he finally fulfilled the role of being a looming, unfathomable threat. He literally corrupts everything around him upon flying and can become a gigantic planet sized storm as seen in this LW season. He scarred a whole portion of Tyria in a way which is even more apparent than the Vines from Mordremoth and rivals the continental corruption of Orr by Zhaitan. But what makes him truly Eldritch is the way he is handled within the narrative: up until the last couple of episodes he was not really our main concern. First we had to deal with Balthazar and then Joko, but Kralk was always there on the background spreading corruption - and he spread a lot of it. And when the time finally came to confront him, we find out he's become this Mist dwelling beast that is consuming the very fabric from which reality spurs. It seems like we wasted a lot of time with Kralkatorrik, but in reality he was being used as a narrative element and a background threat instead, and this allowed Anet to build it up as if such threat is unyielding and cannot be solved (because it was not what we actually had to solve for a long period of time). So now that the time has come to finally solve it, the stakes are unimaginably higher than they ever were. I have my own criticisms about this aspect (Dragon Ball Z syndrome...), but they pulled it very correctly and Kralkatorrik is definitely living up to their narrative intent.

Kralkatorrik has no characterization nor personality, regardless of his threat or size, it's not enough to stand as the antagonist.

I think I understand your criteria for Kralkatorrik to be a proper villain - to have actual motivation, actual goals and to be something the Commander can actually oppose on somewhat moral grounds. I agree that this kind of villain is better and I get more involved in stories that are told like this; but I just wanted to point out, I don't think the writers really mean for Kralkatorrik to be a villain in this sense. They seem to have wanted to pose him as approximately how Tyrians see Elder Dragons (as forces of nature, although we do know that each will have a single weakness by now), and so far this has worked out pretty well given their goal. Kralkatorrik is very simple and visceral, yes: he has a prophecy of the world without him, and wants to exist without the world instead? Or something trivial to that effect. This is not much of a goal for a proper villain the Commander can oppose on moral grounds, but is enough to portray Kralk rather as a massive obstacle for Dragon's Watch to overcome, on grounds that are quite more literal than the (more interesting, I'll concede) usual conflicting motivations of heroes and villains in much media.

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@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:In defense of Kralkatorrik, he was the one Elder Dragon where Anet actually pulled off the Eldritch Horror trope. Zhaitan was epic but rather a linear "boss" we went up to and beat with a metaphorical stick. The stakes were high but at the same time it felt like a regular heroes joining to save the day thing, not the initial proposal that Elder Dragons would be unfathomable.

Mordremoth was awesome in his own right, but he not only had A LOT of dialogue for something who was supposedly way above and beyond us, he was quite "swiftly" dealt with in comparison to his own champion Scarlet (who had her own problems but, was probably the most epic villain we had so far).

Kralkatorrik got spotlight in PoF and he finally fulfilled the role of being a looming, unfathomable threat. He literally corrupts everything around him upon flying and can become a gigantic planet sized storm as seen in this LW season. He scarred a whole portion of Tyria in a way which is even more apparent than the Vines from Mordremoth and rivals the continental corruption of Orr by Zhaitan. But what makes him truly Eldritch is the way he is handled within the narrative: up until the last couple of episodes he was not really our main concern. First we had to deal with Balthazar and then Joko, but Kralk was always there on the background spreading corruption - and he spread a lot of it. And when the time finally came to confront him, we find out he's become this Mist dwelling beast that is consuming the very fabric from which reality spurs. It seems like we wasted a lot of time with Kralkatorrik, but in reality he was being used as a narrative element and a background threat instead, and this allowed Anet to build it up as if such threat is unyielding and cannot be solved (because it was not what we actually had to solve for a long period of time). So now that the time has come to finally solve it, the stakes are unimaginably higher than they ever were. I have my own criticisms about this aspect (Dragon Ball Z syndrome...), but they pulled it very correctly and Kralkatorrik is definitely living up to their narrative intent.

Kralkatorrik has no characterization nor personality, regardless of his threat or size, it's not enough to stand as the antagonist.

I think I understand your criteria for Kralkatorrik to be a proper villain - to have actual motivation, actual goals and to be something the Commander can actually oppose on somewhat moral grounds. I agree that this kind of villain is better and I get more involved in stories that are told like this; but I just wanted to point out, I don't think the writers really mean for Kralkatorrik to be a villain in this sense. They seem to have wanted to pose him as approximately how Tyrians see Elder Dragons (as forces of nature, although we do know that each will have a single weakness by now), and so far this has worked out pretty well given their goal. Kralkatorrik is very simple and visceral, yes: he has a prophecy of the world without him, and wants to exist without the world instead? Or something trivial to that effect. This is not much of a goal for a proper villain the Commander can oppose on moral grounds, but is enough to portray Kralk rather as a massive obstacle for Dragon's Watch to overcome, on grounds that are quite more literal than the (more interesting, I'll concede) usual conflicting motivations of heroes and villains in much media.

Then they fail to present the conflict. Especially after the other 2 villains are out of the way.

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@Slowpokeking.8720 said:I hope we could kill him soon and get to the next dragon. Jormag got more personality and DSD got mystery to solve.

Agree on the first part of the sentence (let's be done with boring Kralk), completely disagree on the second (more elder dragons). Also, Jormag and Primordus are no longer a threat, we won't be dealing with them again in this game. If anything, the Sea Dragon would be next. Or, as I hope, a completely new, fresh idea for a main plot.

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@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@"Zeivu.3615" said:Kralkatorrik is a major tie-in to a lot of world building and story arcs. Destiny's Edge's plot was based on it. The Vigil was formed because of them and then went to form the Pact. Glint's legacy is based on it. The stories involving Aurene are based on it. Balthazar is involved in it. Kralkatorrik needs this time. It's important.

Despite all of this, we have not actually seen kralkatorrik himself. Yes, he has made an appereance but apart from rambling, spitting crystalls and turning our world purple, there wasn´t much. He´s kinda like thanos, the whole current mcu had him as the antagonist but we only got to see him in infinity war, before we didn´t know a thing about him, his motive, his reasoning. That´s what kralkatorrik lacks: depth.His character has no depth at all, no real personality. Even joko had more of that.Maybe that´s anet´s intention, to create a faceless threat whos whole purpose it is to keep the players busy but not invested in the story. Overall that´s the case for all of anet´s story-writing.

You are not supposed to understand an Elder Dragon's reasoning though. They are presented as these world ending threats with motives beyond mortals. Kinda like forces of nature. The only reason we interacted with one in Mordremorth was because of the whole mind power gimmick. Personally, I find that more compelling than a classic mustache-twirling villain like Joko. What Anet could be doing better imo, is introducing secondary antagonists with their own motives trying to take advantage of the situation. A good example of that would be the "Illusive man" in Mass Effect series (those games also had larger than life, faceless villains).

Then that makes the fight not interesting at all. Zhaitan was covered well because you can feel his motive and way of conquering, his Risen got twisted personality.

Just the last fight was a letdown.

Sorry, Zhaitan had no motive or reasoning either...none of the Elder Dragons do, they have one thing to do, and that is consume magic, get full and hibernate, magic slowly seeps out, repeat...that's it, nothing more...how can you have a personality from that...you can't.

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In the past (in-universe) year, we have dealt with:

~ The whole Lazaras debarkle... which spanned from the Maguuma all the way to a reclaimed orr to the Elonian desert~ Primordis (and jormag) in the Fire Isles~ The Svanir and Kodan in the shiverpeaks~ A Krytan civil war~ Palawa Joko, the magnificant~ Aurine's arc~ Kralkatorik

There are a lot of mini-arcs spun into the over-arching narrative of a commander who fights Elder Dragons. I'm not sure I can consider that as time wasted or bad storytelling (at least, in theory)

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The elder dragons never were villains, but rather forces of nature. In this circumstance, I think the elder dragons should feel like a fight for survival and continued existence. Since they don't really have a moral compass, it should almost feel bad to take them out, like killing an animal for sustenance...or perhaps standing up to an impossible force, like man vs nature. Lol I don't think players would appreciate feeling like the game is a survival MMO tho.

I think what makes a good villain is playing with morals and motivations. Making you nearly agree with a villain's motives or even like a villain more than the protagonists has always been one of the checkboxes for me for what makes a good villain. The elder dragons really can't fit that mold though unless a greater force changes this dynamic of them being a force of nature.

That being said, just because the elder dragons are a central aspect of the story, that doesn't mean they have to be the actual villain. Individuals like Scarlet, Kudu or Joko are supposed to fill those roles. The elder dragons and their minions are more a backdrop than a nuanced villain organization for the player to delve into their motives.

[EDIT] Also, I think something that might affect player perception of the different elder dragons is that the past elder dragons had domain over natural forces of nature which might have aided in the feel of man vs nature dynamic while Kralk is noticably unnatural in the domain he represents.

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Kralk his story is much more tied with the lore of the two games then the others. GW1 started with the prophecies by Glint, who was his champion once and was freed from his grasp. He was the foe for Destiny's Edge, and why they failed. this kicked of the second game. He is the real nemesis and for this he stands out to the other dragons. On top of that, his location had more ties with elona, getting that lore envolved as well. So all in all, the lore behind them deserves more showtime.

although I still believe that primordus and jormag where finished off too easy.

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@mercury ranique.2170 said:Kralk his story is much more tied with the lore of the two games then the others. GW1 started with the prophecies by Glint, who was his champion once and was freed from his grasp. He was the foe for Destiny's Edge, and why they failed. this kicked of the second game. He is the real nemesis and for this he stands out to the other dragons. On top of that, his location had more ties with elona, getting that lore envolved as well. So all in all, the lore behind them deserves more showtime.

although I still believe that primordus and jormag where finished off too easy.

they're not dead, they're asleep

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Its been seven years and we have dealt with only three elder dragons. By this tempo it will take us another seven years to finish the main story. You decide for yourself if there is a waste of time.

On topic of elder dragons and eldritch horror and whatnot. I have never seen a game that pulled it off properly. Its always that the villians end up uninteresting and bland. The main issue here is lack of interaction with player character. Unless someone interacts with you or you witness their interaction with someone else you can not really see their personality.

Another issue is that game does a bad job of portraying dread that these dragons are supposed to bring. You have no connection to purple monsters, they are just walking crystals for you to kill. There is no feeling and sense of tragedy when it comes to Kralk because game tells you its supposed to be there but never really shows it to you.

Reason why other elder dragons seem more interesting to some is because they had better "agents" and better synergy with their environment. Orr and Zhaitan complement each other perfectly and amplify each others "darkness". Mordremoth had Sylvari which was unique thing for a game to do.Kralkkatorik has nothing to offer and doesnt create any atmosphere in his surrounding. He feels like an unwanted guest in elona while other dragons felt like sovereigns in their respective regions.

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Kralkatorrik compared to other dragons is very bland, he just wander around, creating amethysts everywhere. Whereas Zhaitan and Mordremoth wanted to speak to us, through minions (even through mind for mordry), kralkatorrik never done anything, it really feel like an alien infestation turning anyone into puppets corrupted by crystals. (I even wonder if the still have their cognitive abilities, they just feel unorganized and mindless)

I always assumed that when Aurene killed Joko, it earned the joko's powers, now that Aurene has been killed by kralky, kraly should have joko powers. That why I'm not understanding why kralk isn't speaking to us through branded awakened... Kralk really feel like a boring dragon, without any defined domain, passing from a map to another, if corrupting some it's cool if not it's okay too. Never wanted to speak, just want to live as anybody else. Those branded aren't an issue, as Inquest done with risens, then can take control of minions by putting some devices on them, so pacify them, the pact could have an army of branded under their order. cf all labs in Sandswept, they can also create portal so possibly artificial rifts. (Without speaking of the strong support of the new golem marks: ballistas, centurions, powered, phalanx, mark III and my favorite exterminator mark, never saw again, R3D-RCR like Gorrik should have the plans of them)

The commander is locked into a terrible spiral, the soldiers from the pact are just expecting to hunt and kill dragons without hearing anything else, the commander doesn't lead anybody, it was the soldiers who led the battle and telling what to do even if it's wrong. Joko was right, and it was an error to kill him, a great strategist, killled just for fun. Was way far more interesting than kralk, even if kralk is the main answer, Joko could have helped us to face that menace:We are the cause of everything, if we never killed zhaitan, mordry and balthazar, we would have never saw vine-branded destroyers, vine minions and rifts shaningans.They also assumed that we have dealt with Promordy and Jormy so no reasons to not explore depths of Tyria and far shiverpeaks.

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@hugo.4705 said:Kralkatorrik compared to other dragons is very bland, he just wander around, creating amethysts everywhere. Whereas Zhaitan and Mordremoth wanted to speak to us, through minions (even through mind for mordry), kralkatorrik never done anything, it really feel like an alien infestation turning anyone into puppets corrupted by crystals. (I even wonder if the still have their cognitive abilities, they just feel unorganized and mindless)

I always assumed that when Aurene killed Joko, it earned the joko's powers, now that Aurene has been killed by kralky, kraly should have joko powers. That why I'm not understanding why kralk isn't speaking to us through branded awakened... Kralk really feel like a boring dragon, without any defined domain, passing from a map to another, if corrupting some it's cool if not it's okay too. Never wanted to speak, just want to live as anybody else. Those branded aren't an issue, as Inquest done with risens, then can take control of minions by putting some devices on them, so pacify them, the pact could have an army of branded under their order. cf all labs in Sandswept, they can also create portal so possibly artificial rifts. (Without speaking of the strong support of the new golem marks: ballistas, centurions, powered, phalanx, mark III and my favorite exterminator mark, never saw again, R3D-RCR like Gorrik should have the plans of them)

The commander is locked into a terrible spiral, the soldiers from the pact are just expecting to hunt and kill dragons without hearing anything else, the commander doesn't lead anybody, it was the soldiers who led the battle and telling what to do even if it's wrong. Joko was right, and it was an error to kill him, a great strategist, killled just for fun. Was way far more interesting than kralk, even if kralk is the main answer, Joko could have helped us to face that menace:We are the cause of everything, if we never killed zhaitan, mordry and balthazar, we would have never saw vine-branded destroyers, vine minions and rifts shaningans.

Kralk never absorbed Aurene. He just fled as quickly as he could. Suspicious?

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Indeed, he fled very fastly, it means something I think we don't really know what happened during the blackout of our character between the instant where aurene put itself in front of kralk and when we woke up, it also been never confirmed if aurene absorbed joko powers, but we saw lights and ley lines around aurene when she ate joko, anything is still possible. If absorbed means eating, then no kralk haven't ate aurene, but still, aurene is dead. I have the idea that Joko's power passed through kralkatorrik confusing it, trying to pacify kralk? Dunno here it's pure speculation, and could explain why it fled rapidly without devastating more the area.

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@derd.6413 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:Kralk his story is much more tied with the lore of the two games then the others. GW1 started with the prophecies by Glint, who was his champion once and was freed from his grasp. He was the foe for Destiny's Edge, and why they failed. this kicked of the second game. He is the real nemesis and for this he stands out to the other dragons. On top of that, his location had more ties with elona, getting that lore envolved as well. So all in all, the lore behind them deserves more showtime.

although I still believe that primordus and jormag where finished off too easy.

they're not dead, they're asleep

Where did I say dead??

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@mercury ranique.2170 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:Kralk his story is much more tied with the lore of the two games then the others. GW1 started with the prophecies by Glint, who was his champion once and was freed from his grasp. He was the foe for Destiny's Edge, and why they failed. this kicked of the second game. He is the real nemesis and for this he stands out to the other dragons. On top of that, his location had more ties with elona, getting that lore envolved as well. So all in all, the lore behind them deserves more showtime.

although I still believe that primordus and jormag where finished off too easy.

they're not dead, they're asleep

Where did I say dead??

"finished off" usually implies dead.but my point is they're asleep and sleeping things can wake up

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@hugo.4705 said:Indeed, he fled very fastly, it means something I think we don't really know what happened during the blackout of our character between the instant where aurene put itself in front of kralk and when we woke up, it also been never confirmed if aurene absorbed joko powers, but we saw lights and ley lines around aurene when she ate joko, anything is still possible. If absorbed means eating, then no kralk haven't ate aurene, but still, aurene is dead. I have the idea that Joko's power passed through kralkatorrik confusing it, trying to pacify kralk? Dunno here it's pure speculation, and could explain why it fled rapidly without devastating more the area.

You know, as much as I absolutely hate the idea, the title War Eternal could be indication that Aurene really did mind meld with Kralk and War Eternal implies that she’s just going to pull be forever fighting Kralks mind to keep him from doing more damage... I mean, it looks like he’s a boss fight in the new map. But what if we’re it’s pulling a Mordremoth and weakening his physical body to help her gain control? Idk. I hope this isn’t the case but it makes me wonder.

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@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@Zeivu.3615 said:Kralkatorrik is a major tie-in to a lot of world building and story arcs. Destiny's Edge's plot was based on it. The Vigil was formed because of them and then went to form the Pact. Glint's legacy is based on it. The stories involving Aurene are based on it. Balthazar is involved in it. Kralkatorrik needs this time. It's important.

Itself and its minions are not interesting, regardless of how many major faction is related, it's not gonna work.

Agree to disagree. I love Kralkatorrik and the Branded as an enemy.

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-plays a game around elder dragons-complains it spends time on elder dragons

I completely disagree though, I've found kralk to be the best elder dragon threat so far. I enjoy the LWS3 to current story a lot. He's actually threatening and we still haven't defeated him despite multiple attempts from various parties. He could have better motives as well, we don't know. But like most others have said, the elder dragons are more just forces of nature and it's like a struggle to survive.As for the lack of supporting characters with more personality... I have a suspicion Joko isn't completely gone and Balth's actions make me think more will happen with the gods as well, so I'd wait to see what is in store for at least season 5 before worrying about there being no other interesting characters.

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I think the focus on kralkatorrik has been fine. I've enjoyed the story surrounding kralkatorrik. I don't feel as if any time has been wasted on this story line, though I am eager for a resolution and what happens when war eternal arrives.

that's not to say that the story or pacing has been perfect, but just from an overhead view of the story, our focus on kralkatorrik has been fine.

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@Ototo.3214 said:-plays a game around elder dragons-complains it spends time on elder dragons

I completely disagree though, I've found kralk to be the best elder dragon threat so far. I enjoy the LWS3 to current story a lot. He's actually threatening and we still haven't defeated him despite multiple attempts from various parties. He could have better motives as well, we don't know. But like most others have said, the elder dragons are more just forces of nature and it's like a struggle to survive.As for the lack of supporting characters with more personality... I have a suspicion Joko isn't completely gone and Balth's actions make me think more will happen with the gods as well, so I'd wait to see what is in store for at least season 5 before worrying about there being no other interesting characters.

He wasn't. DE would have killed him right way if Logan wasn't stupid. And we saved him in PoF.

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