Consume Plasma --> BROKEN!!?? <--

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Except that affects all professions the same way. Nice try tho.

cuz all professions have sic em.

[Quadox.7834]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:The entire point of consume plasma is so that mesmers have a counter. The fact that a top 250 mirage could beat the a top 250 thief 1v1 pre-nerf just shows how completely busted mirage was as a spec.

No, that is clearly not the reason consume plasma was added. That might at least have made 1% sense if plasma had been added with PoF for example, but it wasn't.

Thief has always supposed to been able to pressure mesmers with consume.Not what you said. You stated "The entire point of consume plasma is so that mesmers have a counter" and then you went on to talk about mirage being op as plasma was created to counter mirage. I then explained that this isn't in fact the reason why plasma exists. Most likely they made some random steal skills for PvE mobs then took the most thematically fitting ones and added to the professions for PvP

Your rationale means exactly the opposite of what you think it means.What rationale and what do I think it means, could you explain? :)

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:The entire point of consume plasma is so that mesmers have a counter. The fact that a top 250 mirage could beat the a top 250 thief 1v1 pre-nerf just shows how completely busted mirage was as a spec.

No, that is clearly not the reason consume plasma was added. That might at least have made 1% sense if plasma had been added with PoF for example, but it wasn't.

Thief has always supposed to been able to pressure mesmers with consume.Not what you said. You stated "The entire point of consume plasma is so that mesmers have a counter" and then you went on to talk about mirage being op as plasma was created to counter mirage. I then explained that this isn't in fact the reason why plasma exists. Most likely they made some random steal skills for PvE mobs then took the most thematically fitting ones and added to the professions for PvP

Your rationale means exactly the opposite of what you think it means.What rationale and what do I think it means, could you explain? :)

Your English comprehension skills need serious work. Just because someone mentions insert concept here doesn't automatically mean that everything else previously stated must pertain to only that concept in some very specific and non mutually exclusive way. That's not how the language works.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Except that affects all professions the same way. Nice try tho.

cuz all professions have sic em.

Quoted for facepalm later. ?

[Yannir.4132]

How do you consider Essence Sap the second strongest stolen skill? At first I thought I must've misread that.It's pathetic, although very quick.IMO around 70% of the other skills are more useful. Ice Shard, Throw Gunk and Mace Crack being the only worse ones.

Whirling Axe is the most useful in the most common situation you get it in, when stealing into a downed warrior. If there's no one else around, it does great damage and blocks both warriors down state skills so it's very good as a cleave skill.Skull Fear has a decent range so you don't need to hug your opponent. It's also Unblockable.Probably not particularly useful for S/D but Healing Seed is rather nice when you can Heartseeker into it as a D/P. Not super strong but it is nice.And Blinding Tuft is crucial if you want to succeed vs other thieves. Not the most common one but very useful when you do get it.None of these is as worth as Plasma obviously but they have their uses.

[Quadox.7834]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:The entire point of consume plasma is so that mesmers have a counter. The fact that a top 250 mirage could beat the a top 250 thief 1v1 pre-nerf just shows how completely busted mirage was as a spec.

No, that is clearly not the reason consume plasma was added. That might at least have made 1% sense if plasma had been added with PoF for example, but it wasn't.

Thief has always supposed to been able to pressure mesmers with consume.Not what you said. You stated "The entire point of consume plasma is so that mesmers have a counter" and then you went on to talk about mirage being op as plasma was created to counter mirage. I then explained that this isn't in fact the reason why plasma exists. Most likely they made some random steal skills for PvE mobs then took the most thematically fitting ones and added to the professions for PvP

Your rationale means exactly the opposite of what you think it means.What rationale and what do I think it means, could you explain? :)

Your English comprehension skills need serious work. Just because someone mentions

insert concept here

doesn't automatically mean that everything else previously stated

must

pertain to

only

that concept in some very specific and non mutually exclusive way. That's not how the language works.

Ah yet another comment devoid of any meaning.

"Thief has always supposed to been able to pressure mesmers with consume" is meaningless.

"The entire point of consume plasma is so that mesmers have a counter" is wrong.

Not much else to say if you don't add any substance.

[Megametzler.5729]

I do agree Consume plasma is the best stolen skill (by far probably).

I do not think it makes thief overpowered though.

I would like to see the stolen skills brought more in line (the stolen skill from ele is as weak as the class lol).

Please rather nerf Consume plasma instead of buffing the others.

Only do this when all those other meta builds get nerfed too, thief doesn't need nerfs.

[Fortus.6175]

@"TorQ.7041" said:You meant this is the only edge a thief has over any class and you want to remove that too?

Yeah, it is not like thiefs have the most mobility out of all other classes in the game already.Access to the most teleports that ignore LoS . Teleports that ignore verticality and dont even need targets.Access to the most stealth in the game.Access to the most spammable unblockable attack Sw/D #3 which also prioritizes rejuvenation and protection, and ignores any blocks/aegis, and Sw #2 to get close and get out while ignoring LoS to boot.Access to the only ability in the game that prioritizes stability AND steals it, AND is an unblockable teleport that ignores LoS to boot, AND can share it with everyone around.Being meta since Beta and have been an ever present class in nearly all AT and other tournaments and esport teams we have had since day 1.A class able to hit 32k damage with 1 ability https://imgur.com/7XieoAe  Totally the worst class by far and the only redeemable thing they have is that they are not eles. Yup.

[Quadox.7834]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

1. I do agree Consume plasma is the best stolen skill (by far probably).
2. I do not think it makes thief overpowered though.
3. I would like to see the stolen skills brought more in line (the stolen skill from ele is as weak as the class lol).
4. Please rather nerf Consume plasma instead of buffing the others.
5. Only do this when all those other meta builds get nerfed too, thief doesn't need nerfs.

I 5/5 agree with someone on the guild wars 2. Shocking.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@sephiroth.4217 said:Quoted for facepalm later. ?what? the guy refuses to acknowledge the interaction between might and sic em. plus all the other + damage modifiers that I didn't mention.

editeven if it was just might we're talking about it still answers the original question of ranger having a way to deal double damage to teef.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Quadox.7834 said:Stolen skills are either attacks that need to hit a target (and either melee or slow cast), or defense with limited useability and cooldown like healing seed. This means that the thief must take risks and be think about it in order to get value out of the 2nd stolen still from improv, by going in melee range or doing a slow channel for instance.

Faulty premise. The whole point of thief stolen skills isn't to give them a move that slows them down and/or make them more target-able. No skill should be designed to make a character more vulnerable for its own sake.

Thief stolen skills all have a particular mechanic that helps them interrupt the rotation of the class the skill was stolen from, by introducing an element that class is often weak to.

For example:

Whirling Axe in a smoke field pelts warriors with blind. Leaping in an ethereal field puts condis on engies. Skull Fear puts CC on necros. Mace crack puts CC on guardians.Icicle Shard puts chill on elementalists, which could ruin them if used immediately when they swap out of water. Blinding tuft allows you to stealth attack a thief, which can be devastating to them because of their low hp pool, etc.Consume plasma granting all boons helps the thief survive instant cast, untelegraphed cc like power lock that a mesmer may unload on them, and also makes their strikes do more damage to the mesmer themselves.

Giving the lowest hp class in the game a skill that requires them to be in melee range or telegraph a weak-damage move to a class (because, I assume that is how you feel plasma needs to be brought in line) that has several avenues to negate those options is obvious poor design. (that's why thieves own stolen skill doesn't require this). The skill grants all boons to the thief because there's no reliable telegraph-able skill that will give them an edge over mesmer without also granting them something protective, like stab or aegis, and a thief loaded with boons can force the mesmer to be defensive or protect the thief against being otherwise interrupted.

It shifts the pressure dynamic as it is now, and that's fine tbh. Let mesmers(and its derivatives) fear something.

Even thematically, why does mesmer stolen skill give boons while guardian's gives daze and engi's gives etheral field? That seems backwards.

Mesmer is designed thematically around boon generation (lyssa, inspiration, etc.), so it is thematic for the thief to gain access to boons by pilfering them. Grabbing some corrosive material from an engineer or a mace from a guardian are thematic as well.

If you think it isn't thematic enough, you could just suggest that consume plasma give thieves distortion for several seconds instead.I'm fine with having distortion vs a mesmer if a stack of corruptable/rippable boons, the most protective of which last less than 3 seconds, is too much.

go on.suggest plasma be nerfed and give us distortion instead for 4 seconds a pop.it's t h e m a t i c.

[Whitworth.7259]

Consume is powerful, but you have to work hard to get it. If you've ever played thief against a good mes you'd know. First there's the clones to deal with, don't steal on those or else you've wasted steal and got a useless stolen skill. Then you've gotta deal with all the blocks, dodges and evades a mes can rotate through.

If you're getting consume stolen on a regular basis you're playing mesmer wrong.

[Quadox.7834]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Quadox.7834" said:Stolen skills are either attacks that need to hit a target (and either melee or slow cast), or defense with limited useability and cooldown like healing seed.

This means that the thief must take risks and be think about it in order to get value out of the 2nd stolen still from improv, by going in melee range or doing a slow channel for instance.

Faulty premise. The whole point of thief stolen skills isn't to give them a move that slows them down and/or make them more target-able. No skill should be designed to make a character more vulnerable for its own sake.

No, it is an empirical observation.

I think it is more likely that they just created a bunch of thematically interesting bundles, then made them into stolen skills corresponding to the respective classes. It might even be that these bundles were (and still are) just/mostly copied from pve bundles (in early development steal would give the thief a bundle). This appears to me far more likely than the idea that anet carefully crafted the stolen skills to fit in some advanced pvp tactics like chilling eles after swapping from water, as a means to counter the respective class in high-level pvp. More below.

Thief stolen skills all have a particular mechanic that helps them interrupt the rotation of the class the skill was stolen from, by introducing an element that class is often weak to.

For example:

Whirling Axe in a smoke field pelts warriors with blind. Leaping in an ethereal field puts condis on engies. Skull Fear puts CC on necros. Mace crack puts CC on guardians.Icicle Shard puts chill on elementalists, which could ruin them if used immediately when they swap out of water. Blinding tuft allows you to stealth attack a thief, which can be devastating to them because of their low hp pool, etc.Consume plasma granting all boons helps the thief survive instant cast, untelegraphed cc like power lock that a mesmer may unload on them, and also makes their strikes do more damage to the mesmer themselves.

What I previously talked about is backed up by the fact that you were highly selective in your "observations". Mace head crack is not an obvious fit for guardian, and daze is not a classic counter to guardian. Whirling axe is a reflect which is the opposite of a warrior counter. Throw Gunk has little to do with engi, or countering engi, at all. Healing Seed doesn't necessarily counter ranger. Skull Fear sure cc is good vs necros, but quick interrupts like headshot are more of a counter than a slow windup aoe cc. Essence sap was made at a later date, but even this skill is not that much of a "rev counter" as far as I know. What you have done is looked at the current steal skills, then worked backwards in attempt to rationalize their existance.

Your plasma example isn't even very sound; If the mesmer stolen skill was made to counter cc like power lock, it might have been a stunbreak or a stability skill (which doesn't make much sense as thief is already less negatively affected by mesmer dazes than most/all other professions). If it was made to deal with clones, it might have been an aoe attack. But it isn't. Furthermore, plasma is better versus all classes, not particularly just against mesmer.

Giving the lowest hp class in the game a skill that requires them to be in melee range or telegraph a weak-damage move to a class (because, I assume that is how you feel plasma needs to be brought in line) that has several avenues to negate those options is obvious poor design.What is obvious bad design is having one of the stolen skills be stackable in complete safety behind LoS, in stealth, or ooc, while also being the far strongest stolen skill.(that's why thieves own stolen skill doesn't require this). The skill grants all boons to the thief because there's no reliable telegraph-able skill that will give them an edge over mesmer without also granting them something protective, like stab or aegis, and a thief loaded with boons can force the mesmer to be defensive or protect the thief against being otherwise interrupted.

I like how you assume I want some 2 second cast 130 range 500 damage stab as the new steal skill. There are many possiblilities if you use your imagination. Chaos armor, distortion, evade, stability, daze, detarget, etc etc etc. Or nerfing plasma or making it unstackable somehow. I'll leave the designing to the pvp team.

It shifts the pressure dynamic as it is now, and that's fine tbh.The complete opposite is true, thief is generally strong versus mesmer even without plasma due to the mechanics of these classes (especially historically, which should be kept in mind considering that plasma was in the game at release).

Even thematically, why does mesmer stolen skill give boons while guardian's gives daze and engi's gives etheral field? That seems backwards.

Mesmer is designed thematically around boon generation, so it is thematic for the thief to gain access to boons by pilfering them. Grabbing some corrosive material from an engineer or a mace from a guardian are thematic as well.

1. Mesmer being decent at boons is a more recent endeavor.
2. The most sought-after boons that mesmer provides are alacrity and quickness, which are more of a speciality of chronomancer rather than mesmer.
3. Mesmer (more specifically chaos) is largely designed with random boons, except for two particular traits; chaotic dampening and bountiful dissillusionment (which has has been nerfed multiple times and none of these were in the game at release). I invite you to have a look at mesmer utilities and see how many boons they give.Consume plasma would fit at least as good for engineer, and I would also argue that ele+engi+ranger+guard+war all have a boon-focus that rivals or exceeds that of the mesmer. The only professions that clearly are less boon-focused are necro+thief, maybe war. Most professions have quite a bit of boons somewhere, due to the nature of guild wars 2 allowing several playstyles for each profession (I would say thief historically has seen the shortest end of this diversity-stick).

If you think it isn't thematic enough, you could just suggest that consume plasma

give thieves distortion for several seconds instead

.I'm fine with

having distortion

vs a mesmer if a stack of corruptable/rippable boons, the most protective of which last less than 3 seconds, is too much.

I don't care that much about the theme myself, but I know some do. I have considered and talked about that suggestion previously, but I prefer to leave the design to anet as they generally choose their own designs anyway. You are not going to be able to rip boons from plasma reliably vs a thief (especially sd). And you can try to make it sound weaker if you wish, that is up to you mon ami.

This comment chain is mostly about the theme of plasma so I wish to remind/hold up that I personally think the gameplay aspects/arguments are more important.

[Quadox.7834]

@Whitworth.7259 said:Consume is powerful, but you have to work hard to get it. If you've ever played thief against a good mes you'd know. First there's the clones to deal with, don't steal on those or else you've wasted steal and got a useless stolen skill. Then you've gotta deal with all the blocks, dodges and evades a mes can rotate through.

If you're getting consume stolen on a regular basis you're playing mesmer wrong.

When the bar is hitting an instant, 1200 range skill that ignores line of sight, you know there is something wrong.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Consume plasma is op, dagger storm is op, improv rnging dagger storm is op and MBS is op. When erena net takes a real look at thief as a whole and brings the rest of the class UP to the level of all classes save for eli and renegade who need work to than they should start thinking on how to shave these skills but right now thief needs these to be relevant. Or nerf all classes way down across the board,either be good :)

[Safandula.8723]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Consume plasma is op, dagger storm is op, improv rnging dagger storm is op and MBS is op.

This. But if u nerf these, u need to nerf rest of the specs way harder. I hope it's gonna happen 1 day

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Alright~ Just going to pull a few things out in order of how I wanna address them

@"Quadox.7834" said:What you have done is looked at the current steal skills, then worked backwards in attempt to rationalize their existence.

Yeah, I did. It's a better line of reasoning than the assertion that a thief stolen skill should require the thief to put him or herself in a disadvantaged state in order to utilize it to begin with.

I think it is more likely that they just created a bunch of thematically interesting bundles, then made them into stolen skills corresponding to the respective classes-

See, you did it too. I just think that the dev team actually tried to balance the skills around what would be useful vs the classes being fought.

Whirling axe is a reflect which is the opposite of a warrior counter. Throw Gunk has little to do with engi, or countering engi, at all.

Let's not ignore that thieves have access to smoke fields and can spin with that axe in them to blind warriors, which disables them.Throw gunk creates an ethereal field when you leap in it, which gives you chaos armor. Engineers and their derivatives have very little cleanse in general, and hitting chaos armor gives your opponent potentially weakness and confusion.

Mace head crack is not an obvious fit for guardian, and daze is not a classic counter to guardian

Sure it is. Before the onset of Firebrand, guardians had limited access to stability. if you dazed a guard while aegis was down, he had to either burn JI or purity to respond to you within 3 seconds.

What I previously talked about is backed up by the fact that you were highly selective in your "observations".

I wouldn't call considering the applications of using fields and finishers that are easily accessible to thief in tandem with the skills they acquire while stealing being "highly selective." Those options should also be considered when you are trying to establish the intent or power of a particular skill. Whether or not whirling axe or throw gunk on their own, without any synergy, follow a standard design pattern or not is irrelevant. They can be easily used in ways that allow them to counter the class they are stolen from.

Your plasma example isn't even very sound; If the mesmer stolen skill was made to counter cc like power lock, it might have been a stunbreak or a stability skill (which doesn't make much sense as thief is already less negatively affected by mesmer dazes than most/all other professions). If it was made to deal with clones, it might have been an aoe attack. But it isn't.

It gives you stability. It also gives you aegis, protection, might and fury, which lets you as a thief easily cleave or AOE clones yourself with sword, or shortbow.

Furthermore, plasma is better versus all classes, not particularly just against mesmer.

That doesn't matter. If you steal plasma from a mesmer, you have a mesmer enemy. Whether or not it is -only- good against them or not doesn't really bear any significance.

What is obvious bad design is having one of the stolen skills be stackable in complete safety behind LoS, in stealth, or ooc, while also being the far strongest stolen skill.

We will have to agree to disagree about this.

I like how you assume I want some 2 second cast 130 range 500 damage stab as the new steal skill.

You heavily implied it by essentially going, in your opening statement, that consume plasma is far out of line for stolen skills by calling attention to the fact that the other stolen skills are either telegraphed or weak on their own. I feel like it was proper to assume this is what you wanted. Glad to see we agree on distortion though.

The complete opposite is true, thief is generally strong versus mesmer even without plasma due to the mechanics of these classes (especially historically, which should be kept in mind considering that plasma was in the game at release).

Conceded, but that doesn't mean that plasma should be weaker. The stolen skills provide tools for exploiting the mesmer's weaknesses, and unfortunately mesmers have mechanics that prevent direct attacking of those weaknesses.

1. Mesmer being decent at boons is a more recent endeavor.

Whether mesmer became decent at boon stacking or not recently is irrelevant. They have thematically been centered around generating boons as part of their combat. Chaos line in particular proves this, but there are other examples that tie Mesmers with boon generation.

2. The most sought-after boons that mesmer provides are alacrity and quickness, which are more of a speciality of chronomancer rather than mesmer.

I don't see how that's a problem compounded by consume plasma. Explain?

3. Mesmer (more specifically chaos) is largely designed with random boons, except for two particular traits; chaotic dampening and bountiful dissillusionment (which has has been nerfed multiple times and none of these were in the game at release). I invite you to have a look at mesmer utilities and see how many boons they give.

I mean... It's still focused around boon generation. Whether or not they are random thematically for the mesmer makes no difference to me. They shouldn't be random for the thief, because stolen skills shouldn't have a chance of just being useless or unpredictable. It's a skill acquired for the express purpose of helping fight a particular class.

Consume plasma would fit at least as good for engineer, and I would also argue that ele+engi+ranger+guard+war all have a boon-focus that rivals or exceeds that of the mesmer.

Sure, now. But-

I don't care that much about the theme myself, but I know some do. I have considered and talked about that suggestion previously, but I prefer to leave the design to anet as they generally choose their own designs anyway. You are not going to be able to rip boons from plasma reliably vs a thief (especially sd). And you can try to make it sound weaker if you wish, that is up to you mon ami.

Noted.If you don't care about the theme that much then I don't know why we're arguing about this. Still think plasma is fine. gameplay wise. It provides pressure and enough tools to interrupt the mesmers rotation for 10 seconds on damaging boons per chug. That's hardly overpowered imo, especially considering the opponent in question can react to any visible damage following cc with very little focus on having to predict the cc being incoming. I'm not saying its weak at all. My assertion is strong classes getting difficult situations like this one in particular is welcomed.

[Simonoly.4352]

As I said in another thread on this, Consume Plasma is a cool stolen skill that feels impactful but the durations of the Vigour and regeneration applied should certainly be reduced and probably the Swiftness and Fury too. I do think it should grant more than one stack of Might though:. perhaps 2-3.

[Quadox.7834]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Alright~ Just going to pull a few things out in order of how I wanna address them

@"Quadox.7834" said:What you have done is looked at the current steal skills, then worked backwards in attempt to rationalize their existence.

Yeah, I did. It's a better line of reasoning than the assertion that a thief stolen skill should require the thief to put him or herself in a disadvantaged state in order to utilize it to begin with.Firstly: You say that skills that actually have to hit your target, be placed on the ground, risk being evaded etc "force you into a disadvantaged state" and is "bad design". How you can consider risk-reward and counterplay to be a bad thing is beyond me.Secondly: I compared it to the other stolen skills to illustrate why it is so strong. I can't answer what the stolen skills

should

do (and I don't think I have), only anet can (if even). My assertions are

1.

it is too strong/lacks counterplay and

2.

this is why. ("this" being my comparisions to the other stolen skills and everything else in previous posts).

I think it is more likely that they just created a bunch of thematically interesting bundles, then made them into stolen skills corresponding to the respective classes-

See, you did it too. I just think that the dev team actually tried to balance the skills around what would be useful vs the classes being fought.You claim is that steal skills have a particular purpose and are made a particular way intentionally (to counter the opponent and exploit their weakness). And so it drives balance changes. My perspective only serves to counter yours (it means that there is no set purpose or point, and plasma should not be kept excessively powerful under this pretense). So this view does not involve any active assertions.

Whirling axe

is a reflect which is the opposite of a warrior counter.

Throw Gunk

has little to do with engi, or countering engi, at all.

Let's not ignore that thieves have access to smoke fields and can spin with that axe in them to blind warriors, which disables them.I didn't ignore it, but you already brought it up and so I added the fact that whirling axe is a reflect first and foremost (without actively doing a particular combo field interaction). Surely if the point of the skill was to counter warriors, it would do something else than reflect and kill you in retal? If you presuppose the view that the skill is made to counter warrior, then sure it is possible construct an argument if you look far enough and apply some confirmation bias.

Theoretical build diversity is so big in gw2 that one skill can both counter and be bad against a the same class with different builds. (unless it specifically counters a profession-wide mechanic somehow).

Throw gunk creates an ethereal field when you leap in it, which gives you chaos armor. Engineers and their derivatives have very little cleanse in general, and hitting chaos armor gives your opponent potentially weakness and confusion.Engineer doesn't have very little cleanse (really cba arguing about this one though so if you disagree that's fine), and it's not like chaos armor does any damage.

Mace head crack is not an obvious fit for guardian, and daze is not a classic counter to guardian

Sure it is. Before the onset of Firebrand, guardians had limited access to stability. if you dazed a guard while aegis was down, he had to either burn JI or purity to respond to you within 3 seconds.In core days guardian was the primary giver of stability, so this makes no sense. There was just less stability (and boons) back then. You still had stand your ground, indomitable courage, and so on.

What I previously talked about is backed up by the fact that you were highly selective in your "observations".

I wouldn't call considering the applications of using fields and finishers that are easily accessible to thief in tandem with the skills they acquire while stealing being "highly selective." Those options should also be considered when you are trying to establish the intent or power of a particular skill. Whether or not whirling axe or throw gunk on their own, without any synergy, follow a standard design pattern or not is irrelevant. They can be easily used in ways that allow them to counter the class they are stolen from.Ah, now you say I should

"also"

consider those options, when the entire reason for my long tirade was because you ignored half the stolen skills, and overlooked some of the most prominent effects on some of thosen you

did

bring up. That's what I called selective.

Your plasma example isn't even very sound; If the mesmer stolen skill was made to counter cc like power lock, it might have been a stunbreak or a stability skill (which doesn't make much sense as thief is already less negatively affected by mesmer dazes than most/all other professions). If it was made to deal with clones, it might have been an aoe attack. But it isn't.

It gives you stability. It also gives you aegis, protection, might and fury, which lets you as a thief easily cleave or AOE clones yourself with sword, or shortbow."It gives everything, therefore it counters mesmer". That's the problem, you could take basically any effect whatsoever and justify why it exists if you want, it just confirmation bias.

Furthermore, plasma is better versus all classes, not particularly just against mesmer.

That doesn't matter. If you steal plasma from a mesmer, you have a mesmer enemy. Whether or not it is -only- good against them or not doesn't really bear any significance.Yes it does. If the point of the plasma is to counter mesmer specifically but as it turns out, is actually the most effective and preferable versus almost anything in almost any situation, then there is clearly something up with that. It is of course also possible to hold the opinion that the other steal skills are too weak.

What is obvious bad design is having one of the stolen skills be stackable in complete safety behind LoS, in stealth, or ooc, while also being the far strongest stolen skill.

We will have to agree to disagree about this.Well I can't force you to defend or explain your position. That sentence was a response to you saying

"... a skill that requires them to be in melee range or telegraph a weak-damage move to a class (because, I assume that is how you feel plasma needs to be brought in line)"

where you came up with some hyperbole and unfounded assumption on what I want the mesmer stolen skill to be like. I just found it funny how you created a bad skill in your head and then turned around and called it bad design.

I like how you assume I want some 2 second cast 130 range 500 damage stab as the new steal skill.

You heavily implied it by essentially going, in your opening statement, that consume plasma is far out of line for stolen skills by calling attention to the fact that the other stolen skills are either telegraphed or weak on their own. I feel like it was proper to assume this is what you wanted. Glad to see we agree on distortion though.It is unequivocally the best steal skill so that certainly qualifies it for "out of line". I then compared to to the other steal skills to show

why

it is so.

Not sure what I agreed to on distortion, I just meant to bring up that I have talked about it before. It would be good to have anything that isn't so braindead to use, boring to face, and is unequivocally the best steal skill.

The complete opposite is true, thief is generally strong versus mesmer even without plasma due to the mechanics of these classes (especially historically, which should be kept in mind considering that plasma was in the game at release).

Conceded, but that doesn't mean that plasma should be weaker. The stolen skills provide tools for exploiting the mesmer's weaknesses, and unfortunately mesmers have mechanics that prevent direct attacking of those weaknesses.

1. Mesmer being decent at boons is a more recent endeavor.

Whether mesmer became decent at boon stacking or not recently is irrelevant. They have thematically been centered around generating boons as part of their combat. Chaos line in particular proves this, but there are other examples that tie Mesmers with boon generation.

Recency is not relevant in terms of creating a balanced and good game. However history is very useful for refute the idea that plasma was added because mesmer has always been the most boon-focused class, or similarly.

All professions can generate boons as part of their combat, even thief and necro. Before 2015 one of the traitlines on each class gave boon duration. And no, mesmer hasn't "been centered" around it, especially not any more than other professions.

2. The most sought-after boons that mesmer provides are alacrity and quickness, which are more of a speciality of chronomancer rather than mesmer.

I don't see how that's a problem compounded by consume plasma. Explain?Sorry for the confusion, what I mean is that the reason why chronomancer is so useful for boons in PvE is because it has alacrity and quickness (both are rare and both boost dps). Just wanted to clarify that chrono being used as a support (esp in pve) does not mean that mesmer in general is any better at giving boons than most classes.

3. Mesmer (more specifically chaos) is largely designed with random boons, except for two particular traits; chaotic dampening and bountiful dissillusionment (which has has been nerfed multiple times and none of these were in the game at release). I invite you to have a look at mesmer utilities and see how many boons they give.

I mean... It's still focused around boon generation.Yes, every class has some traitline that is more focused on boons than others (for thief it is acro for example). Some also have a bit in each line like ele.Whether or not they are random thematically for the mesmer makes no difference to me. They shouldn't be random for the thief, because stolen skills shouldn't have a chance of just being useless or unpredictable.The original theme should remain, but remove any of the negatives or what makes it mesmer-y in the first place (traitline is literally called chaos)? And throw gunk chaos armor is fine with rng? It's so damn quotable:

"Whether or not they are random thematically for the mesmer makes no difference to me. They shouldn't be random for the thief".

It's a skill acquired for the express purpose of helping fight a particular class.This has been talked about at length above.

Consume plasma would fit at least as good for engineer, and I would also argue that ele+engi+ranger+guard+war all have a boon-focus that rivals or exceeds that of the mesmer.

Sure,

now

. But-?

I don't care that much about the theme myself, but I know some do. I have considered and talked about that suggestion previously, but I prefer to leave the design to anet as they generally choose their own designs anyway. You are not going to be able to rip boons from plasma reliably vs a thief (especially sd). And you can try to make it sound weaker if you wish, that is up to you mon ami.

Noted.If you don't care about the theme that much then I don't know why we're arguing about this.Because some people like to argue based on the original theme or purpose of the skills.Still think plasma is fine. gameplay wise.

"Still think", as if it is more than a pipe dream to change someones mind in an internet argument :).But yeah, this is what it comes down to. I think it is overpowered.

It provides pressure and enough tools to interrupt the mesmers rotation for 10 seconds on damaging boons per chug. That's hardly overpowered imo, especially considering the opponent in question can react to any visible damage following cc with very little focus on having to predict the cc being incoming. I'm not saying its weak at all. My assertion is strong classes getting difficult situations like this one in particular is welcomed.

This is why this thread was a useless endeavor, because people have put mesmer in the "strong class" box and thief in the "weak class" box in their minds, there is little reasoning to be done. I hope anet buffs thief through the roof and nerfs mesmer to uselessness and maybe I'll make another thread.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Alright~ Just going to pull a few things out in order of how I wanna address them

@Quadox.7834 said:What you have done is looked at the current steal skills, then worked backwards in attempt to rationalize their existence.

Yeah, I did. It's a better line of reasoning than the assertion that a thief stolen skill should require the thief to put him or herself in a disadvantaged state in order to utilize it to begin with.Firstly: You say that skills that actually have to hit your target, be placed on the ground, risk being evaded etc "force you into a disadvantaged state" and is "bad design". How you can consider risk-reward and counterplay to be a bad thing is beyond me.Secondly: I compared it to the other stolen skills to illustrate why it is so strong. I can't answer what the stolen skills

should

do (and I don't think I have), only anet can (if even). My assertions are

1.

it is too strong/lacks counterplay and

2.

this is why. ("this" being my comparisions to the other stolen skills and everything else in previous posts).

I think it is more likely that they just created a bunch of thematically interesting bundles, then made them into stolen skills corresponding to the respective classes-

See, you did it too. I just think that the dev team actually tried to balance the skills around what would be useful vs the classes being fought.You claim is that steal skills have a particular purpose and are made a particular way intentionally (to counter the opponent and exploit their weakness). And so it drives balance changes. My perspective only serves to counter yours (it means that there is no set purpose or point, and plasma should not be kept excessively powerful under this pretense). So this view does not involve any active assertions.

Whirling axe

is a reflect which is the opposite of a warrior counter.

Throw Gunk

has little to do with engi, or countering engi, at all.

Let's not ignore that thieves have access to smoke fields and can spin with that axe in them to blind warriors, which disables them.I didn't ignore it, but you already brought it up and so I added the fact that whirling axe is a reflect first and foremost (without actively doing a particular combo field interaction). Surely if the point of the skill was to counter warriors, it would do something else than reflect and kill you in retal? If you presuppose the view that the skill is made to counter warrior, then sure it is possible construct an argument if you look far enough and apply some confirmation bias.

Theoretical build diversity is so big in gw2 that one skill can both counter and be bad against a the same class with different builds. (unless it specifically counters a profession-wide mechanic somehow).

Throw gunk creates an ethereal field when you leap in it, which gives you chaos armor. Engineers and their derivatives have very little cleanse in general, and hitting chaos armor gives your opponent potentially weakness and confusion.Engineer doesn't have very little cleanse (really cba arguing about this one though so if you disagree that's fine), and it's not like chaos armor does any damage.

Mace head crack is not an obvious fit for guardian, and daze is not a classic counter to guardian

Sure it is. Before the onset of Firebrand, guardians had limited access to stability. if you dazed a guard while aegis was down, he had to either burn JI or purity to respond to you within 3 seconds.In core days guardian was the primary giver of stability, so this makes no sense. There was just less stability (and boons) back then. You still had stand your ground, indomitable courage, and so on.

What I previously talked about is backed up by the fact that you were highly selective in your "observations".

I wouldn't call considering the applications of using fields and finishers that are easily accessible to thief in tandem with the skills they acquire while stealing being "highly selective." Those options should also be considered when you are trying to establish the intent or power of a particular skill. Whether or not whirling axe or throw gunk on their own, without any synergy, follow a standard design pattern or not is irrelevant. They can be easily used in ways that allow them to counter the class they are stolen from.Ah, now you say I should

"also"

consider those options, when the entire reason for my long tirade was because you ignored half the stolen skills, and overlooked some of the most prominent effects on some of thosen you

did

bring up. That's what I called selective.

Your plasma example isn't even very sound; If the mesmer stolen skill was made to counter cc like power lock, it might have been a stunbreak or a stability skill (which doesn't make much sense as thief is already less negatively affected by mesmer dazes than most/all other professions). If it was made to deal with clones, it might have been an aoe attack. But it isn't.

It gives you stability. It also gives you aegis, protection, might and fury, which lets you as a thief easily cleave or AOE clones yourself with sword, or shortbow."It gives everything, therefore it counters mesmer". That's the problem, you could take basically any effect whatsoever and justify why it exists if you want, it just confirmation bias.

Furthermore, plasma is better versus all classes, not particularly just against mesmer.

That doesn't matter. If you steal plasma from a mesmer, you have a mesmer enemy. Whether or not it is -only- good against them or not doesn't really bear any significance.Yes it does. If the point of the plasma is to counter mesmer specifically but as it turns out, is actually the most effective and preferable versus almost anything in almost any situation, then there is clearly something up with that. It is of course also possible to hold the opinion that the other steal skills are too weak.

What is obvious bad design is having one of the stolen skills be stackable in complete safety behind LoS, in stealth, or ooc, while also being the far strongest stolen skill.

We will have to agree to disagree about this.Well I can't force you to defend or explain your position. That sentence was a response to you saying

"... a skill that requires them to be in melee range or telegraph a weak-damage move to a class (because, I assume that is how you feel plasma needs to be brought in line)"

where you came up with some hyperbole and unfounded assumption on what I want the mesmer stolen skill to be like. I just found it funny how you created a bad skill in your head and then turned around and called it bad design.

I like how you assume I want some 2 second cast 130 range 500 damage stab as the new steal skill.

You heavily implied it by essentially going, in your opening statement, that consume plasma is far out of line for stolen skills by calling attention to the fact that the other stolen skills are either telegraphed or weak on their own. I feel like it was proper to assume this is what you wanted. Glad to see we agree on distortion though.It is unequivocally the best steal skill so that certainly qualifies it for "out of line". I then compared to to the other steal skills to show

why

it is so.

Not sure what I agreed to on distortion, I just meant to bring up that I have talked about it before. It would be good to have anything that isn't so braindead to use, boring to face, and is unequivocally the best steal skill.

The complete opposite is true, thief is generally strong versus mesmer even without plasma due to the mechanics of these classes (especially historically, which should be kept in mind considering that plasma was in the game at release).

Conceded, but that doesn't mean that plasma should be weaker. The stolen skills provide tools for exploiting the mesmer's weaknesses, and unfortunately mesmers have mechanics that prevent direct attacking of those weaknesses.

1. Mesmer being decent at boons is a more recent endeavor.

Whether mesmer became decent at boon stacking or not recently is irrelevant. They have thematically been centered around generating boons as part of their combat. Chaos line in particular proves this, but there are other examples that tie Mesmers with boon generation.

Recency is not relevant in terms of creating a balanced and good game. However history is very useful for refute the idea that plasma was added because mesmer has always been the most boon-focused class, or similarly.

All professions can generate boons as part of their combat, even thief and necro. Before 2015 one of the traitlines on each class gave boon duration. And no, mesmer hasn't "been centered" around it, especially not any more than other professions.

2. The most sought-after boons that mesmer provides are alacrity and quickness, which are more of a speciality of chronomancer rather than mesmer.

I don't see how that's a problem compounded by consume plasma. Explain?Sorry for the confusion, what I mean is that the reason why chronomancer is so useful for boons in PvE is because it has alacrity and quickness (both are rare and both boost dps). Just wanted to clarify that chrono being used as a support (esp in pve) does not mean that mesmer in general is any better at giving boons than most classes.

3. Mesmer (more specifically chaos) is largely designed with random boons, except for two particular traits; chaotic dampening and bountiful dissillusionment (which has has been nerfed multiple times and none of these were in the game at release). I invite you to have a look at mesmer utilities and see how many boons they give.

I mean... It's still focused around boon generation.Yes, every class has some traitline that is more focused on boons than others (for thief it is acro for example). Some also have a bit in each line like ele.Whether or not they are random thematically for the mesmer makes no difference to me. They shouldn't be random for the thief, because stolen skills shouldn't have a chance of just being useless or unpredictable.The original theme should remain, but remove any of the negatives or what makes it mesmer-y in the first place (traitline is literally called chaos)? And throw gunk chaos armor is fine with rng? It's so kitten quotable:

"Whether or not they are random thematically for the mesmer makes no difference to me. They shouldn't be random for the thief".

It's a skill acquired for the express purpose of helping fight a particular class.This has been talked about at length above.

Consume plasma would fit at least as good for engineer, and I would also argue that ele+engi+ranger+guard+war all have a boon-focus that rivals or exceeds that of the mesmer.

Sure,

now

. But-?

I don't care that much about the theme myself, but I know some do. I have considered and talked about that suggestion previously, but I prefer to leave the design to anet as they generally choose their own designs anyway. You are not going to be able to rip boons from plasma reliably vs a thief (especially sd). And you can try to make it sound weaker if you wish, that is up to you mon ami.

Noted.If you don't care about the theme that much then I don't know why we're arguing about this.Because some people like to argue based on the original theme or purpose of the skills.Still think plasma is fine. gameplay wise.

"Still think", as if it is more than a pipe dream to change someones mind in an internet argument :).But yeah, this is what it comes down to. I think it is overpowered.

It provides pressure and enough tools to interrupt the mesmers rotation for 10 seconds on damaging boons per chug. That's hardly overpowered imo, especially considering the opponent in question can react to any visible damage following cc with very little focus on having to predict the cc being incoming. I'm not saying its weak at all. My assertion is strong classes getting difficult situations like this one in particular is welcomed.

This is why this thread was a useless endeavor, because people have put mesmer in the "strong class" box and thief in the "weak class" box in their minds, there is little reasoning to be done. I hope anet buffs thief through the roof and nerfs mesmer to uselessness and maybe I'll make another thread.

Why not ask for a plasma skill to replace a garbage skill instead?

[Axelteas.7192]

The skills stolen from a elementalist and revenant are absolutely useless, so the plasma is there to compensate.

[Quadox.7834]

@Axelteas.7192 said:The skills stolen from a elementalist and revenant are absolutely useless, so the plasma is there to compensate.

How is rev stolen skill garbage

[Airdive.2613]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Axelteas.7192 said:The skills stolen from a elementalist and revenant are absolutely useless, so the plasma is there to compensate.

How is rev stolen skill garbage

It's a long-cast, slow-moving projectile that can cancel itself if you rotate the camera. You have to get extremely lucky to land it.

[mortrialus.3062]

I feel like thematically stealing from guardians should give the thief boons and stealing from mesmer should give them access to a super long daze.

[Ralkuth.1456]

I've had a burning question since launch. Thieves steal Plasma from Mesmers right? Where does this piece of virility essence come from? Is it like some dangling fruit that grows behind the Mesmer's head or something? If it's filthy blood plasma from some really diseased Mesmer dude, won't you get aids from consuming it? Is that why Mesmers themselves never had the chance to eat it?

Out of all the stolen items this one made the least sense to me.