If charr and human went to war, which faction would support which side?

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

That is because of lack of evidence in game and in the lore. The only evidence we can find is that humans are faith-based society that focused on magic instead of engineering. By contrast, the Charrs distrust magic so they focused on engineering. The evidence to support those are all over the game and in the lore. Yes some Charr uses magic but not at the level of the Flame Legion or humans, and yes humans have engineers but not at the level to rival the Charrs'. The only real evidence is that human can build stuff, but the only human that actually focused on engineering is a crazy person who built a mechanical band and a golem based on a stole design to abduct the queen. That's not really a convincing argument. Even though humans have the capacity to learn and advance, it doesn't necessarily means that they are willing to use those knowledge. It's the difference between knowing and doing. While the Charrs are building tanks, the humans are praying in their shrines.

Now the humans supposedly have designed and built the Watchknights. Why now? Why not 250 years ago? According to the arguments written in this discussion, humans are capable of doing so seeing how advanced the Luxons were and how the Istani made mechanical toys. Yet, for the last 250 years, Kryta only managed to built Divinity's Reach and places shrines of the gods all over the city. Take note the name of the city, Divinity's Reach, it's appropriate to the kind of society the Krytans have become. My point is, the Watchknight came out of nowhere and was only created to setup the Living Story that, to be honest, ruined the lore for the sake of an ambitious goal of releasing content every 2 weeks. They made a Living Story with no regards to the established lore which gives me plenty of reason to be skeptic.

Maybe they didn't build them 250 years ago because the steam creatures were a recent creation, and they were what prompted the idea in the first place? Perhaps it was a lack of inspiration, not a lack of capability?

That is more the reason that humans are incapable of creating them themselves prior to the existence of the steam creature. However, I doubt that.

They simply have no way to fabricate the parts or how to convert a clock works mechanism into a combat-ready automaton.

For 250 years, humans are still using ballista and catapults while Charr are using cannons and tanks. You're basically looking at a showdown between the Roman Empire and the 1914 German Empire.

Plus all you have to do it look at the Upper City in Divinity' reach to know that humanity has the ability to make grand mechanical contraptions.

For the last 250 years, they just now realize that the citizens of Divinity's Reach needs the Watchknight for protection. Protection against what exactly? The war is over. However the timing of it is suspect. It is plausible that the only reason that the humans were able to build the Watchknight is due to the human-Charr peace treaty allowing the humans access to the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. I mean they are at war with the Charr for that long and they never thought about building weapons of war that can rival the Charrs? Even suspending my disbelief that narrative simple makes no sense. What makes sense is that, as an act of good faith, humans are purchasing Charr goods, ordering ironwork parts, and even collaborating in the Watchknight design. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I'm sure ArenaNet can come up with a better narrative like attacking Mord in the heart of Maguuma with the whole Pact fleet with zero intelligence information because nobody bother to send out a recon team ahead of the fleet. Yup that makes total sense, the commander is incompetent in commanding an army.

Maybe what you need to remember is that what is shown in the game isn't necessarily everything that exists in Tyria. You act like humans can't use or create advanced machinery when based on the ghosts we can see at Grendich in ascalon, we can see that humans had access to cannons before the Foefire even, that's not even including the differing war weapons found by other human kingdoms. We also have evidence of humans working with clockwork technology through the Upper City and the Band and humans have also been seen infusing magic into items since early in the game through many, many experiences in GW1, with the miniatures being the example of their magic giving a semblance of life to the items they imbue. It is far easier, from what we have experienced in both games, to believe that humans were able to create the Watchknights from some forge that we just don't see in game than it was to believe that the barbaric Charr that we met in Guild Wars 1 were able to create the massive industrial society that we see today. You can't accept one hard to believe situation without a doubt and refuse to believe the other.

I never said that they can't create advance machinery, since it's fairly obvious that they can create a siege engine. However, the cannons in Ascalon are stolen Charr weapons.

What I've been saying is that they didn't focused on it because they focused instead on their faith, which means they never made a facility to produce the parts to make any modern weapon for war.

To build a single Watchknight, they have to mass produce the gears and other parts that goes in it...where did they mass produced those parts? Divinity's Reach only have local blacksmiths. The only plausible source of mass produced parts is the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. So seeing that there are many Watchknights that we can beat up to scraps for fun shows that mass producing the parts are very important, otherwise it would be very expensive and if it is expensive, we would not be allowed to beat them up for fun. Not only mass producing the parts, but also mass producing the Watchknights. Where are all these things coming from?

I love that you ignore the point that I made that we obviously don't see everything that exists in Tyria in the game. I mean could you really call Kryta a kingdom if it controlled such small landmass? Only like 5-10 villages with nowhere near enough farming and agriculture to support what exists? Charr are capable of surviving as a mostly meat only society with only the few ranches we find in the world? Really? And do you honestly think only one smelter located in the middle of a city would be capable of creating all of the massive charr vehicles we see? Plus, let's be honest, do the Watchknights look anything close to charr technology? Their work is far more brutish and crude, not to say it doesn't work, but the

human Watchknights look to require more finesse, more intricacy

than the general charr engineer could provide, especially at mass produced levels. But this doesn't matter. You have no interest in what others have to say on the matter or what valid points they bring up. I'm done with responding to you.

Really? If that is true, then the production of each Wathknight is very expensive. If that is the case, then Kryta is super rich since we're just bashing those watchnights to scraps during the jubilee. Yes, you don't have to respond.

I mean... you saw the Pavillion, right?

Everything

about the Jubilee speaks to obscene amounts of money being thrown around. If you're already spending enough to turn a several hundred foot sinkhole into an elaborate, artistic arena, and the surrounding residential neighborhood into gardens, and then only use any of it for a couple festivals a year... the expense of hand-crafted automatons isn't going to slow you down any.

The "artistic arena" is nothing original nor something unheard of before, but it is nothing but a Krytan version of the X-men's Danger Room. If you read the description about it, they are mesmer illusions, no different than the Danger Room's holographic projections to make the encounters and the danger look and feel real. That "artistic arena" is but an empty room with watchknight automatons. The only thing that is real is what's on top, not what's inside the hole. So I really doubt that they've thrown an "obscene amount of money" to it. Everything is run on illusion magic.

Wow, you completely missed the point.

The engineering knowledge required to build the arena is what is being referenced.

I was replying to the notion that Kryta has an "obscene amount of money being thrown around". But it's ok if you're lost, I'm done talking about this anyway.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

The watchknights are covered by illusions, nothing else, but that scenery's actually not what I meant. Lots of ways to cut corners on props even without magic.

Shoring up hundreds of feet of sewers, catacombs, and who knows what else, not to mention whatever instability caused the collapse in the first place?

A massive, elaborate, multi-level arena, up to and including hanging cages designed to stand up to the fiercest magical punishment that the most talented competitors have to offer?

Sacrificing an entire district's worth of productivity to what amounts to a monument to vanity?

And, yes, a metal-and-glass structure rising dozens of feet into the air, hanging out over an immense drop?

None of that comes cheap.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

humans have build huge ships of the line. That is 'engineering' at its finest. Humans have integrated elementalists and mesmers into their army/navy and use their skills to the fullest. In modern parlance 'combined weapons' and 'electronic/psychological warfare'. Humans have fought a war of attrition against white mantle and centaurs - and won. While the charr still haven't got anything done.

Seriously, if the charr really decided to attack, they would a) have to fight huge storms blowing their airships back into the brand, b) swamps that would stop their tanks cold, and c) illusions which would make them kill each other. Blood legionaires in their stupid armor would be roasted by lightning strikes, ash would find out what a human noble lady really can do.

Jennah was able to shield DR with a giant mesmer bubble. It would be funny to watch the mighty airships crash into that. On a second thought, scrap that. Airships are not mighty, they are fragile and easy to take down.

Charr wouldn't stand a chance. Not with the white mantle/bandit problem solved. Also Charr need to cross a whole mountain range. Crossing mountains always favours the defender. Additionally those mountains are filled with people who probably wouldn't be too happy with all those charr stomping throught THEIR home, EATING THEIR animals. Norn are just one group. There are also those lovely, lovely jotun. Now charr apologists will point out that the jotun will be swept aside, since they are so scattered and low in numbers. This is correct. But doing so will use up ressources, reduce the charr numbers and take time. Time is not a friend of the charr in this scenario and losing your precious warmachines crossing hostile territory just to stumble into even more hostile territorry doesn't sound like the start of a successful campaign. That your supply lines run across those mountains still swarming with hostile natives, just doesn't make it any better.

Last but not least, it is considered that to attack an equally equipped opponent successfully, you need to outnumber them 3:1. If you are lucky and take chances. To be on the save side, 5:1 or 10:1 is needed.

So after crossing the mountains and having already lost most of their machines (because from all we can see in the game they are fragile, cumbersome and rather weak), and a good part of their supplies, with their supply lines stretched and under constant threat, they will run into a battle hardened army, fully capable of using warmachines and incorporating magic into their battle tactics, who had time to dug in and prepare AND has the advantage of short, secure supply lines.

You know what that smells like? disaster.

Ebonhawke is a prime example. Despite all their mighty machines and professionalism, the charr could not take down a SINGLE fortress that was pretty isolated for huge parts of its existance. They couldn't stop the caravans when the gate was down, they couldn't take the city when Kryta lost Lion's Arch.

The charr love to talk big. But they haven't fought any real enemy since Ascalon/Orr. They couldn't deal with Ebonhawke, they couldn't deal with the Ascalonian Ghosts, all they could do was spouting insults and be incompetent in every regard.

So if noone sides with the charr, they will be wiped. Asura and sylvari will be smart enough to figure out that after the humans, they will be next. They might stay neutral. But if they don't logic dictates they side with Kryta. Even if the majority of norn sides with the charr, there are still those who don't - which brings back the problem of armies crossing hostile mountains and fragile supply lines stretched to the breaking point.

In short: if there ever will be a united charr force, I am sure its leader will be smart enough to figure it out. If the leader is desperate or stupid enough to attack, the charr problem will solve itself and Ascalon will be a human kingdom again.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Founding

The Final Onslaught, quote: "But for every human that fell, a dozen charr lay dead before them."

Hmmmmmm.

[Aracz.4702]

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Founding

The Final Onslaught, quote: "But for every human that fell, a dozen charr lay dead before them."

Hmmmmmm.

I would like to remind two facts

• this book is written by humans
• those humans were the elite of the elites, fighting against poorly equiped religious fanatics

It does not have any comparison to the current situation. It was true during GW1 time, when charrs weren't even wearing metal armors and were led by shamans (it's like telling "german folks are stronger than russian folks/current germany is going to win against current russia, because of eastern front cacasualties", it's just untrue). Now, the chances in 1v1 combat/Legions vs Kryta war are just equal in base and can be changed by other factors than just race/species, because Tyria/GW2 story is about individuals/heroes, not about racial qualities ¯_(ツ)_/¯ No matter how strong both forces would be, I'm sure it will end with group of heroes changing the tide of warAnd about "The Founding" -if there would be converter "x humans are worth x charrs/asuras/sylvars/norns", it wouldn't make sense for player to be able to choose a specie of the commander, who starts as regular person who at end can one hand slay an armies of... Any specie. No matter of his own

[ThatOddOne.4387]

The historian who wrote that book was very honest and blunt about the civilians who were with the Vanguard, including telling how they first fled in terror at the mere sight of Charr.

Also it wasn’t the elite of the elite. There were human civilians who took up arms in that battle. A baker and her son died on the frontlines.

Apparently from what people say in this thread even “poorly equipped” Charr would be able to slaughter humans. Nor do we know what Legion they were from. It could have been Blood for all we know.

The difference between them is not as great as people like to peddle. Charr and humans are if anything depicted as on par, it’s the norn that are greater than either of them by far.

[Aracz.4702]

I suppose those humans were led by Ebon Vanguard, who were just total dominators on battlefield, from what I know.And about "even “poorly equipped” Charr would be able to slaughter humans.", it just seems like bias. Or we are talking about slaughtering unarmed civilians. I'm not sure if there are sources telling about charr cannon fodder slaughtering regular ascalonian units. I'm sure we will find notes about single charrs who were capable to kill a lot, but it will be about heroes/champions (~important enemy in game), not about regular representative of the species. And we just know how strong compared to the regular persons can be in-lore strong individuals

[Loesh.4697]

The Ebon Vanguard themselves were a collection of Ascalonian refugees, many of them became soldiers out of revenge. They just got really good at setting traps to crush Charr units, more then likely Thackery applied the same training to those civilians as he did to every other refugee who went to the Shiverpeaks.

Also i'm not sure why anyone would think Flame Legion, the literal head of the Charr Legions at the time would be poorly equipped or be less hardy then any of the other Charr Legions, if anything the sheer amount of magic they had made them better equipped to fight humans on even terms. Plus as we found out at Rin, Charr had a tendency to get slaughtered by Ascalonian units when they couldn't use the Flame as a crutch.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

Friendly reminder that even after the Searing, Ascalon held out for decades and even managed to launch expeditions and forays into the charr homelands.

[Aracz.4702]

@Loesh.4697 said:Also i'm not sure why anyone would think Flame Legion, the literal head of the Charr Legions at the time would be poorly equipped or be less hardy then any of the other Charr Legions

During war time, Flame Legion units were probably better equipped than other Legions, but still, you can see how charr armor looked during gw1 on screens and compare it to gw2 armors or Ebon Vanguard armors. It's like nothing, and this is first clue to assume that Charrs those times weren't capable of manufacturing quality weapons and armors for most of the Army

[Narcemus.1348]

@Aracz.4702 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:Also i'm not sure why anyone would think Flame Legion, the literal head of the Charr Legions at the time would be poorly equipped or be less hardy then any of the other Charr Legions

During war time, Flame Legion units were probably better equipped than other Legions, but still, you can see how charr armor looked during gw1 on screens and compare it to gw2 armors or Ebon Vanguard armors. It's like nothing, and this is first clue to assume that Charrs those times weren't capable of manufacturing quality weapons and armors for most of the Army

I would like to point out that the same humans that fought them were mostly leathers (looking at ascalonian guards) and some of the humans that went out and slaughtered them were wearing just cloth or in some cases naked tattooed skin...

[Aracz.4702]

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Aracz.4702 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:Also i'm not sure why anyone would think Flame Legion, the literal head of the Charr Legions at the time would be poorly equipped or be less hardy then any of the other Charr Legions

During war time, Flame Legion units were probably better equipped than other Legions, but still, you can see how charr armor looked during gw1 on screens and compare it to gw2 armors or Ebon Vanguard armors. It's like nothing, and this is first clue to assume that Charrs those times weren't capable of manufacturing quality weapons and armors for most of the Army

I would like to point out that the same humans that fought them were mostly leathers (looking at ascalonian guards) and some of the humans that went out and slaughtered them were wearing just cloth or in some cases naked tattooed skin...

I konw it's true, I mostly wanted to point the advantage of armor of Ebon Vanguar and current charrs (and probably current humans, cause they are now better equiped too).In situation when charr and human don't have armors, and both of them have any kind of weapon, they are like in equal situation. Both can deal huge damage to each other, and who would win depends on other factors than natural strenghts. In GW world, I assume mostly on will to fight, skill and plot ^^It's clear that the charrs were less capable to fight than humans during GW1. There are just my speculations (based on what I have found in game and in forum), but i think it was because Shamans were just exploating their strategical advantage to win the war. Even if humans had better tactics, equipment and training, shamans were capable of throwing hordes of legions soldiers without worrying about losses, and finally win the war. I assume also that treatment of soldiers was one of the reasons of charr civil warsBut yes, these are my speculations. From other side, to compare loses we can only use informations from previous wars, which applies to the present situation like speculation does :D We can assume something, but we don't have clear answers

[Diak Atoli.2085]

@Aracz.4702 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Aracz.4702 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:Also i'm not sure why anyone would think Flame Legion, the literal head of the Charr Legions at the time would be poorly equipped or be less hardy then any of the other Charr Legions

During war time, Flame Legion units were probably better equipped than other Legions, but still, you can see how charr armor looked during gw1 on screens and compare it to gw2 armors or Ebon Vanguard armors. It's like nothing, and this is first clue to assume that Charrs those times weren't capable of manufacturing quality weapons and armors for most of the Army

I would like to point out that the same humans that fought them were mostly leathers (looking at ascalonian guards) and some of the humans that went out and slaughtered them were wearing just cloth or in some cases naked tattooed skin...

I konw it's true, I mostly wanted to point the advantage of armor of Ebon Vanguar and current charrs (and probably current humans, cause they are now better equiped too).In situation when charr and human don't have armors, and both of them have any kind of weapon, they are like in equal situation. Both can deal huge damage to each other, and who would win depends on other factors than natural strenghts. In GW world, I assume mostly on will to fight, skill and plot ^^

Actually, in an 'all things being equal' scenario, a charr would be far more likely to win. Physically, the average charr has a massive advantage over the average human, standing at least half again as tall as a human with proportionally more muscle.

[Aracz.4702]

@Diak Atoli.2085 said:

@Aracz.4702 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Aracz.4702 said:

@"Loesh.4697" said:Also i'm not sure why anyone would think Flame Legion, the literal head of the Charr Legions at the time would be poorly equipped or be less hardy then any of the other Charr Legions

During war time, Flame Legion units were probably better equipped than other Legions, but still, you can see how charr armor looked during gw1 on screens and compare it to gw2 armors or Ebon Vanguard armors. It's like nothing, and this is first clue to assume that Charrs those times weren't capable of manufacturing quality weapons and armors for most of the Army

I would like to point out that the same humans that fought them were mostly leathers (looking at ascalonian guards) and some of the humans that went out and slaughtered them were wearing just cloth or in some cases naked tattooed skin...

I konw it's true, I mostly wanted to point the advantage of armor of Ebon Vanguar and current charrs (and probably current humans, cause they are now better equiped too).In situation when charr and human don't have armors, and both of them have any kind of weapon, they are like in equal situation. Both can deal huge damage to each other, and who would win depends on other factors than natural strenghts. In GW world, I assume mostly on will to fight, skill and plot ^^

Actually, in an 'all things being equal' scenario, a charr would be far more likely to win. Physically, the average charr has a massive advantage over the average human, standing at least half again as tall as a human with proportionally more muscle.

But from the other side, is much bigger target, easier to hit. And even if charr have more muscle, it have also proportionally more weight.Even if it makes charr hit harder, if you use any weapon which make momentum, strenght differences won't change a lot. If you need "5 units of strenght" to kill, the fact you have "6" or "15" dosn't make a direct difference in favour of one side :D

[Narcemus.1348]

We have at least one example of a one on one fight between a charr and a human that lead to the human winning at the end of Ghosts of Ascalon. I cannot remember whether the charr was wounded or anything, though. Either way, humanity should have had a ton of disadvantage with the span of the Charr territory and numbers, but humanity still pushed them back. They had something, and it wasn't just Balthazar...

[Aracz.4702]

In Ebonhawke sewage the same Charres have killed a human soldier (lieutanant) with a single hit .-. Riona was just really good soldier, so she was able to win against Ember easily (it was also a backstab :D Ember to the last moment thought Riona was on her side)And ultimately, Charrs made two human civilizations fall. But it seems to me that such scuffles do not make sense :p

[Genesis.8572]

@Aracz.4702 said:In Ebonhawke sewage the same Charres have killed a human soldier (lieutanant) with a single hit .-. Riona was just really good soldier, so she was able to win against Ember easily (it was also a backstab :D Ember to the last moment thought Riona was on her side)And ultimately, Charrs made two human civilizations fall. But it seems to me that such scuffles do not make sense :pThe four charr legions united against humanity (while having Abaddon's indirect help) while the three human kingdoms of Tyria were divided and warring amongst themselves. Kryta remains, Ebonhawke endures, and Orr has been resurfaced and cleansed. But humanity is increasingly getting their act together in the world and will likely experience a resurgence.

I would also add regarding the earlier discussion of watchknights, that part of the quest Taimi sends you on in Sunspear's Refuge is presenting Aurene with a watchknight figure as an example of human ingenuity.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Aracz.4702 said:In Ebonhawke sewage the same Charres have killed a human soldier (lieutanant) with a single hit .-. Riona was just really good soldier, so she was able to win against Ember easily (it was also a backstab :D Ember to the last moment thought Riona was on her side)And ultimately, Charrs made two human civilizations fall. But it seems to me that such scuffles do not make sense :p

Other way round, actually. Ember got in the backstab at the start of the fight.

[Aracz.4702]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Aracz.4702 said:In Ebonhawke sewage the same Charres have killed a human soldier (lieutanant) with a single hit .-. Riona was just really good soldier, so she was able to win against Ember easily (it was also a backstab :D Ember to the last moment thought Riona was on her side)And ultimately, Charrs made two human civilizations fall. But it seems to me that such scuffles do not make sense :p

Other way round, actually. Ember got in the backstab at the start of the fight.

Riona backstabbed figuratively, Ember literally xdBut I still dont know why Riona nad only a part of armor ripped off and had claw marks on arms. Like... What Ember did at beggining? Tried to take Riona's armor off? Throwed a rock? Aimed for arms with her claws or aimed for weapon? I know she may be tired after being a decoy, but the fact she just wasted her chance is kinda weird.Or maybe she was lost in situation and didn't wanted to kill Riona or risk loosing the Claw. I don't have acces to full book right now, so i can't check what they were talking about after dealing with Riona :s now I just dont remember

[dodgerrule.8739]

The humans would be killed off. I see more humans in Tyria then any other race even though humans are “going extinct”

[Narcemus.1348]

No one ever said humans were going extinct, they have just fallen from their previous place of power. They have gone from 3 of the most powerful kingdoms on the continent to one singular kingdom harrassed constantly by centaurs. Their position is harsh compared to their much more glorious past, but they are still there, and don't plan on going anywhere anytime soon!

[Suzaku.9537]

If the Charr High Legions (Blood, Iron, Ash, and Flame) went to war against the last human nation in Tyria (the continent), then the Elder Dragons must be a non-issue, now. And even then, only rising tensions over some issue could ignite a war between the two polities.

Let's say, perhaps, that tensions in Ascalon erupted into armed conflict between the nationalists on both sides. Queen Jennah and Imperator Smodur would try to ameliorate the situation, emboldening both the Ebonhawke Separatists and the charr Renegades due to perceived "racial betrayal". Kryta's crackdown on Ascalonian riots in both Ebonhawke, Rurikton, and Ascalon Settlement would show the charr Renegades that they could do whatever they wanted. However, Imperator Smodur would be under pressure from Queen Jennah to weed out charr renegade elements in Ascalon. Smodur would have the authority to do so, as Ascalon is traditionally the Iron Legion homeland. Unfortunately for peace, with the Elder Dragons gone and the Claw of the Khan-Ur, there would be no reason for the Ash Legion to support the peace treaty any longer and Imperator Malice Swordshadow would side with Imperator Bangar on the subject of reclaiming Southern Ascalon for the charr High Legions.

Below are two scenarios of how either situation could result in war between Kryta and the four charr High Legions:

1. If he does begin curbing Renegade activities, the Ebonhawke Separatists will spread propaganda through the Asura Gate into Divinity's Reach, Lion's Arch, and even Amnoon of a possibility of restoring Ascalon. Remnants of the White Mantle and bandits will join the Separatists in an attempt undermine Queen Jennah's peace with the charr and try to incite more violence with the Renegades. With support from the freed cities of Elona, Ebonhawke could destroy the Asura Gate from Divinity's Reach and declare sovereignty from the Kingdom of Kryta as a restored Ascalonian state, the Ascalonian Republic. The High Legions would see this as a prime opportunity to lay siege to Ebonhawke, as intel from Divinity's Reach would let them know about the sabotaged Asura-gate in Rurikton. However, a reluctant Smodur may take a page from Ash Legion handbooks and secretly use Iron Legion and sympathetic elements in the other legions (like Rytlock or Almorra of the Blood Legion) to stall an advance on southern Ascalon and Ebonhawke. The Free-Cities of Elona would aid their neighbours to the north through the Desert Gate.
   • a) Kryta, still dealing with the centaur war-herds to the north, would acknowledge Ebonhawke's (and by extension, Ascalon's) secession from Kryta and free up resources to put towards pushing back centaur raids in Queensdale and elsewhere in her dominion. In Elona, support for the new republic would begin to wane as the war with the charr waged on and Lion's Arch's merchants gained from increased exports to the Black Citadel. Kryta also gained through tarriffs imposed on goods passing through Gendarran Fields, as the Black Citadel shut-down operation of their Asura-gate to and from Lion's Arch for security purposes. The merchant's of Lion's Arch would consider using the Asura-gate to Hoelbrak, but the Asuran gate-fees and Hoelbrak's tariffs alone would make the venture unpalatably unprofitable. Using the trade route through Lornar's Pass, though incurring Hoelbrak's lower taxes, would be treacherous and the insurance premiums on those trade caravans would be as steep as the cliff-roads they would be forced to traverse.
   • b) If, then spurred on by her own people into action, Queen Jennah then had Kryta come to the aid of Ascalon and Elona--we would have our Second Human-Charr War. Through Kessex Hills, the Krytan Army would board warships in the Port of Garrenhof as Lion's Arch's Captain's Council would refuse so as to remain a neutral port of trade. Charr submarines would clash with Pact submarines on loan to Kryta from the Pact. Pact Marshal Logan Thackeray would be stripped of his title and put on trial at a military tribunal as a result of protest from both General Almorra Soulkeeper and Preceptor Halvora Snapdagger in regards to Pact resources being used in a geopolitical conflict. The Master of Whispers would manipulate internal Pact politics enough to get Logan Thackeray off with an extradition to Kryta. With Logan Thackeray's pending extradition to Kryta being delayed, the return of Pact submarines, and sea-routes to Elona prowled by charr submarines, the Krytan reinforcements would be slow to arrive in Ascalon, unless they disembarked and hoofed it through the Shiverpeaks and paid a head-tax/bribe to pass through Norn lands. Or, if the Krytan fleet successfully evaded the charr submarines and made it through the Scavenger's Causeway, the allied Port City of Amnoon awaited their arrival. Kryta would then march north up to the Desert Gate and reinforce the Ascalonian position at Ebonhawke. The war would reach a stalemate, then and there (until others began joining in on the war or a treaty was signed).
2. If he doesn't and, instead, sides with the other High Legions: Queen Jennah will be forced to answer a charr invasion of Ebonhawke or lose the confidence of her people--first, and foremost, the Ascalonians of Ebonhawke, Rurikton, and Ascalon Settlement. Humans of Elonan and Canthan descent would probably not view such a response in a positive light, either. The Free-Cities of Elona would probably see the Krytan-Queen's response as a sign of weakness, as well.
   • a) Queen Jennah aids Ascalon. The gates of Ebonhawke would shut tight and Kryta would supply the garrison with enough resources through the Rurikton Asura-gate to withstand a charr siege, indefinitely. The Krytan Army could--with Knut Whitebear's permission, of course--march through the Shiverpeaks from Gendarran Fields, through Snowden Drifts and Wayfarer Foothills, to the Iron Legion's doorstep: Diessa Plateau. There, they could launch an assault on the Black Citadel and cut off the supply route. The High Legions would have to fall back to defend the Black Citadel and the Ascalonians and Elonans could then push north from Ebonhawke, from the Fields of Ruin, to the Blazeridge Steppes and the Plains of Ashford. From there, they could besiege the Black Citadel or join the Krytan forces on the Diessa front. The other races and factions would have little reason to intervene on the side of the charr High Legions, nor the side of the human nations. However, with the Black Citadel under siege, it is with hope that the charr High Legions would sue for peace--but not outright surrender. A treaty would probably be signed to cede southern Ascalon--perhaps, everything south of the shattered wall in the Blazeridge Steppes and the Plains of Ashford--except for the Black Citadel (or, they could keep the Plains of Ashford and the ruins of Rin).
   • b) If she did instead decide to avoid conflict and called a truce for new treaty terms in order to save the lives of both Krytan soldiers and civilians of all human nations, she would cede Ebonhawke and the lands of southern Ascalon (the Fields of Ruin) to the charr High Legions. This would be met with oppositional uproar and would have basically the same result as scenario 1a. However, acting quickly--now that she basically has the Ministry on-side--Queen Jennah would force the relocation of all Ascalonians living in Ebonhawke and southern Ascalon. Separatists and the Ebon Vanguard would revolt and whoever didn't evacuate/relocate to Kryta would escape to Elona through the Desert Gate. Ascalonian refugees would then follow the steps of the Ebon Falcons and flee through Blazeridge Gap and the tunnels leading to the Desert Highlands. After fighting off the oozes, they emerged from the tunnels of Wayment Steep and make their way to High Jump Ranch. There, they are assisted by the descendants of Ascalonians. Some settle here, weary of the months-long trek, while others continue on to Makali Outpost, Kweli Village, the grand Temple of Kormir, and Amnoon--forming ethnic enclaves along the way. Wade Samuelsson and other Commanders of the Ebon Vanguard create a government-in-exile called the Republic of Ascalon to work for the return of Ebonhawke and southern Ascalon, with the ultimate goal of reclaiming all of Ascalon in the name of a sovereign republic. Ebonhawke is now a ghost-town--deserted. However, Queen Jennah keeps the gates shut until the new treaty is signed and works to keep the architecture of Ebonhawke preserved. The Imperators of Blood and Flame are annoyed, but agree to the terms as these are lands are under Iron Legion's jurisdiction, anyway. There would be peace, for a time--until each Imperator drew up designs for the rest of Kryta in separate attempts to gain enough clout to claim the title of the Khan-Ur. But maybe one of them would first clear out the ogres from the Blazeridges to gain the title of Khan-Ur before declaring war on Kryta or Elona.
3. Smodur, Malice, Rytlock or even Bottica claims the Claw of the Khan-Ur and unites the High Legions to forge peace with the humans. If either Smodur, Malice, or Rytlock become Khan-Ur, the Flame Legion would be pretty much be demolished. If Boticca became Khan-Ur, the Flame Legion will change greatly--none of that sexism and the High Legions would once again accept spellcasting on the battlefield. Not sure what "great act" any of the four would have to do to gain the loyalty of the four high Legions, though. The last (and, so far, only) Khan-Ur was from the Gold/Flame Legion and he conquered what is now known as the Blood Legion homelands and then Ascalon before it was called that or the "Iron Legion homelands".

Now for the different factions:

• Krait = neither; too preoccupied with enslaving and sacrificing.
• Harpies = neither; the matriarch's are too preoccupied.
• Choya = neither; unable to communicate in New Krytan and, like the grawl, are too tribal.
• Centaur Alliance = broken by the Krytan-Iron Legion Alliance. Modniir, Tamini, and Harathi are now separate tribes. The Modniir scattered back into Far-Shiverpeaks and the Harathi into the Woodland Cascades and Northern Maguuma. The Tamini have returned to their nomadic roots and joined the peaceful Maguuma tribe who are descended from the Harathi.
• Giant = neither; very few left.
• Jotun = neither; their society is too fractured and culture too fragmented.
• Ettin = neither; too tribal.
• Trolls = neither; not interested and are tribal.
• Ogres = neither--generational grudges remain in most kraals against the charr and humans of Ascalon who took their ancestral lands from them.
• Grawl = neither; would have to be recruited on a tribe-by-tribe basis.
• Skritt = neither; too disorganised and confused when they scatter outside their Scratch.
• Hylek Blue-Green-Yellow-Red = neither; still rebuilding after the Fall of Zhaitan.
• Hylek Itzel-Nuhoch = neither; too far to the west, relatively peaceful, and still rebuilding after the Fall of Mordremoth.
• Hylek Coztic = neither; dislike outsiders.
• Hylek Heket = neither; still rebuilding after the Fall of Joko.
• Quaggan = neither; pacifists rebuilding in the north with the Kodan after the Fall of Jormag and in the southern ocean after the Fall of Steebubbles.
• Kodan = neither; still rebuilding with the Quaggan after the Fall of Jormag.
• Tengu = neither; still behind their walls after the Fall of Primordus and rebuilding in the Maguuma Jungle after the Fall of Mordremoth.
• Largos = neither or both, as assassins.
• Dwarves = neither.
• Forgotten = if any are left, they would join the humans in honour of the the Human Gods.
• Djinn = neither.
• Dredge = neither; but would probably use the aftermath of the Second Human-Charr War as a pretext to invade the surface world--perhaps the Asura have similar designs.
• Norn = neither or both. Only would join for glorious battles as mercenaries.
• Sylvari Dreamers = neither or both. Like the norn, would join either side for the experience as mercenaries.
• Sylvari Soundless = neither. Want nothing to do with the Dream or Nightmare, or non-Sylvari--especially after the Mordremoth fiasco and its wake of anti-sylvari sentiment.
• Sylvari Courtiers = neither or both (as mercenaries). Whichever spreads more bad feels into the Dream of Dreams. Not sure if Duchess Chrysanthea becomes the court's Grand Duchess after HoT or if she thinks differently from Cadeyrn and Faolain.
• Asuran Collegiate = neither, but profits off the war (Asura-gate usage-fees, weapons-trading, etc.).
• Asuran Inquest = neither, maybe helping the bandits/White Mantle in Ascalon, but also profiting off the bloodshed.
• Captain's Council of Lion's Arch = neither; war is good for profiteering if you aren't involved.
• Asuran Consortium = neither; like the three above, will profit off of the Human-Charr conflict.
• Aetherblades = neither, or both--whoever pays the most.
• Assorted Tyrian Pirates = neither, or both.
• Corsairs = neither, or hoping Elona hires them as privateers/mercenaries.
• Toxic Alliance = neither.
• Molten Alliance = neither, or charr High Legions depending on what the High Legions can offer the Moletariat.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@Reincarnatie.7254 said:If the Charr High Legions (Blood, Iron, Ash, and Flame)Flame is not a High Legion. They don't get that honor. It's a fallen legion in disrepute.

[adormtil.1605]

How much of the total charr population is in the flame legion? For an fallen legion they seem to be everywhere.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@adormtil.1605 said:How much of the total charr population is in the flame legion? For an fallen legion they seem to be everywhere.

Every modern charr has it's origins from the original four children of the Khan-Ur. So a quarter at their best. Though they manage to hold territory in Fireheart Rise, they're not doing so well these days and we've killed their current god-imperator and nothings been said of a replacement.

The Flame Legion is in shambles and will probably be cleaned out before the end of this generation.