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All or Nothing: Requiem: Zafirah's Story {discussion}


Michram.6853

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@"McPero.3287" said:So Balthazar absorbing ED magic is unconfirmable theory, while him killing them all resulting in a destruction of Tyria is confirmable fact?Taimis' theory claims that other ED absorbed magic of ED that we killed, Kralkatorrik seems to have their magic. There are pretty good reasons to believe Balthazar would be able to absorb the magic of Kralkatorrik.

It's one thing to be able to absorb the magic. It's another thing entirely to take their place in The All, which is the important part. Yes, overflow of magic is an issue, but as Taimi laments over during Elder Druid Protection step in Season 3 Episode 5, that issue is not the real main concern, rather it is The All's balance (or as Taimi sometimes puts it, "the Elder Dragon balance"), which is what Glint's Legacy is all about ultimately.

It has been said by multiple sources now that the death of one more Elder Dragon will result in Tyria's destruction. This was the entire reason why the Commander antagonized Balthazar (alongside the whole "we know you're not the evil mursaat Lazarus, so instead of talking it out we'll forcibly unmask you!" stupidity). Even if Balthazar could replace one Elder Dragon in The All, he cannot replace two as no one thing can. And even if he can replace on Elder Dragon in The All, Balthazar had zero intention of remaining on Tyria, thus would imbalance The All once he fulfilled his Tyrian-based goals and left to attack the Six Gods.

@"McPero.3287" said:Just because Gods and ED fought once and made a desert in the process doesn't means God of war can't kill them without massive destruction. After all Balthazar was master at doing war not other Gods that claimed Tyria would be destroyed. Just imagine instead of us coming there killing Balthazar, him completing his plan. And narritive we present is clearly saying Balthazar was about to kill Kralkatorrik. So if he does kill him, he and maybe Aurene absorb Kralkatorriks' power there is no other extra destruction that Gods were warning about. And how would us killing Kralkatorrik in last episode we had be any better, just no God that could likely absorb magic from Kralkatorrik.

The gods and Elder Dragons never fought. It was infighting between gods - without the death of one - that made the Crystal Sea into a desert and the southern coastline into the Desolation. Kormir brought that up during Facing the Truth, alongside bringing up how when mortals fought Abaddon there was no permanent effects on the landscape, to show that beings on par to gods fighting each other in of itself will cause national-level devastation.

Balthazar wouldn't have caused massive destruction in killing Kralkatorrik or Primordus/Jormag... if and only if no other Elder Dragon had died before it. At this point, ANYONE killing any other Elder Dragon will be causing world destruction - unless there is a replacement. That's the entire point behind the title "All or Nothing", we had one hope, one chance, to kill Kralkatorrik without destruction to Tyria and that hope was Aurene (because Vlast was killed by Balthazar). Aurene was supposed to absorb that magic, become an Elder Dragon, and keep The All from becoming too destabilized. It was a silly course of action imo as first we should be establishing a proper replacement for Zhaitan and Mordremoth is possible. Presumably, we'll find out that there is a new hope in the form of the Skywalkerscale or something in the new map.

If Balthazar had been freed before Zhaitan's defeat, then he could have joined in killing Zhaitan and there would be no issue. But this is because Balthazar is no longer a god by the time of GW2. He had been stripped of his power and his divinity, so he is little better than a powerful mortal until the events of Season 3.

The only way Path of Fire could have ended without the destruction of Tyria while killing Kralkatorrik, would be if and only if Balthazar allowed Aurene (or Vlast) to absorb the lion's share of Kralkatorrik's magic and become an Elder Dragon proper. But the thing is, he was after that lion's share of magic and power, so he would not - could not - allow that.

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No point, it is just inconsistent writing by Anet. Nothing proves that Tyria can't survive without ED magic in it. Nothing says Balthazar would kill other Gods. Nothing says Balthazar can't replaced ED. Those are all just speculations on which Anet will inconsistently decide as the story goes on. And only real magic is magic that has no rules, so anything should be possible, even for a skritt to absorb entire magic of Kralkatorrik. If magic has physics like rules than it is not magic and is just different physics.Fact is Anet made ED as the villain dragons that like in traditional fantasy need to be killed. But along the way they have just decided to change the whole agenda so now we are in a position where they have to come up with stupid excuses to explain things. Watch us kill Kralkatorrik in next episode and everything will be fine or trap him outside of Tyria and we can survive without his 'lifeforce'.

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@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Biography#Race_questions

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prayer_to_Dwayna

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prayer_to_Lyssa

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prayer_to_Kormir

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Melandru

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hounds_of_Balthazar

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper_of_Grenth

When norn racials have a tangible benefit and effect related to what they are called, I don't think you can really get away with calling the above "Just magic" when a norn's beast form is specifically influenced by which Spirit of the Wild they prefer. Every other race's racials are specifically related to an aspect of their race so why would the human ones not be?

This is particularly relevant for the last three, which are all ultimates that all humans regardless of profession can access.

the effects of the spirit of the wild can be explained with magic alone tbh. The norn feels 'bear-ish' so his subconcious magic use makes him a bear.The same for humans. We have not seen that ALL humans have access to this stuff. In fact we have only seen it from the PC. The PC is a vivid magic abuser. Even as a warrior. So all this 'god given gifts' can be explained as nothing but subconcious magic use. Other humans don't use magic - and we don't see them ever call the hounds of balthazar.

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Only it isn’t “just magic” for norn, so your argument falls flat. The abilities unique to humans that no other race can use are a result of the blessings of the Six Gods, not just magic emulating it, that’s quite literally what the descriptions say. Case closed.

A human commander also talks about enjoying the blessings of Balthazar for as long as they can remember during Path of Fire when trying to reason with him if that option was picked at character creation. Someone wouldn’t say that if the benefits were not tangible and attributable to the God in question.

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@McPero.3287 said:No point, it is just inconsistent writing by Anet. Nothing proves that Tyria can't survive without ED magic in it. Nothing says Balthazar would kill other Gods. Nothing says Balthazar can't replaced ED.

Nothing, except practically everyone and everything involved in the plots.

@McPero.3287 said:And only real magic is magic that has no rules, so anything should be possible, even for a skritt to absorb entire magic of Kralkatorrik. If magic has physics like rules than it is not magic and is just different physics.

Then I guess we're not dealing with magic, just different physics which happens to be called "magic" in this universe. Because ArenaNet has applied rules, and kept to those rules.

I mean, if you think about it, that's all magic really is. A different way to manipulate physics without physical matter. No matter the fantasy setting.

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Zafirah's feelings toward Balthazar are interesting, but frankly I don't think Balthazar himself is interesting or relevant as a character anymore. His motivations are either hidden (he explicitly says that Tyria is trivial compared to what he can do with this magic - we have no idea if he wants to face the other gods or something else, or even if it can somewhat be "justified" from his point of view), or flat out I-only-lust-for-power and I don't know which one I hate the most. It's interesting that they introduced her as a character to keep his "gw1 side" still lingering around, but I hope they give up on further explaining anything about the gods if they're gonna keep doing it as well as they have done so far (i.e not at all).

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@castlemanic.3198 said:which also aligns with everything that konig has said too, if the gods walk on tyria, they would become lighthouses that attract the elder dragons to them and, whether they wanted it or not, an 'all life on tyria will end' conflict would ensue.

I digress in our other discussion since I've said what I needed to say there. Instead, I will respond to this one.

The gods being a beacon is far-fetched due to the fact that they have battled in Tyria before against Abaddon. They've also showed up in Arah, Orr. Yet, the EDs didn't wake due to their presence in Tyria. Can you imagine how much magic was released while fighting Abaddon?

The Dragons continued to slumber. So I don't buy that one bit.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286Incidentally, you highlight the important point countering your argument, while completely skirting around it. The Elder Dragons were asleep, with still 1,000 years' worth of magic inside of them before getting hungry during gw1's era.

That's a pretty big difference than being awake, hungry, and attentive, and being asleep and still sated.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@kasoki.5180 said:She told us that fighting Balthazar would have cataclysmic consequences. We punched him in the face with his sword, he died, nothing cataclysmic happened. She could've done the same thing with same results. Unless there is some bizzare unknown physical reaction that occurs when two gods are in close proximity to each other, her whole explanation is some Space-magic bs explanation.

I think you completely forgot about the maelstrom of magic that Balthazar's death unleashed. One that was heavily damaging to the Commander in the center of the storm until Aurene ate the magic in the center, allowing us to move and stop being injured and witness Kralaktorrik eat the rest of the maelstrom.

Had Kralkatorrik and Aurene not been there, Vabbi would be no more, just like how the Crystal Sea became a desert and its verdant southern coast a sulfurous wasteland when Abaddon was defeated. With them there, the Elder Dragon became capable of entering the Mists at will and begin consuming all reality.

And both of those would be there if Kormir was the one who stabbed Balthazar with Sohotin, not us. Simply proclaiming some magical effect without prooving it doesnt make it so. Again, how would things be different if Kormir was there? They wouldn't be, it would just be easier.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@kasoki.5180 said:We know that we are going to deal with dragons, one way or another. We as players know this. Kill them, replace, trap them, put them to sleep, whatever. We already know that these are the thing we are gonna do to them. So her whole reasoning that gods simply cannot be part of it for some space-magic reason is again something that we know as players not to be true. Anything that we are going to do to remaining dragons could be easily done by Gods.

This is entirely false. Firstly, we know we cannot just outright kill them, because the world will die. Secondly, the gods are massive magical beacons. Their mere presence would no doubt draw the Elder Dragons to them, and force conflict. We've not seen gods fighting gods or Elder Dragons fighting Elder Dragons since the battle with Abaddon, which as noted, turned the Crystal Sea into the Crystal Desert, and a verdant coastline into The Desolation.

How is this "entirely false"? This is literally the main story. And unless Anet plans to tell this story into infinity this story will somehow end. We absolutely will somehow deal with dragons, one way or another. Also, killing them was just one of the options. And saying how killing them is not on the table is not true since we already killed two, and just tried to kill the third. We absolutely will deal with dragons. That is literally the entire story of the game. Which means that Kormir's defeatist attitude is a priori wrong from a meta-narrative standpoint.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The way Kormir puts it, when gods fight each other, the world is fractured; when mortals fight gods, the damage is more mitable. This was the point of her bringing up Abaddon's two battles. When the gods fought Abaddon, world was permanently changed, when mortals did it, it went back to normal.

That makes no sense. It would make sense if killing balthazar took some epic effort. So then you could reason it with extensive damages, but we literally stabbed him with a magical sword. There was no epic power leveles fight needed. Thats why i'm saying that narrative pushed by Kormir is at odds with what game otherwise presents.And that is the core issue. Kormir keeps saying that "power levels" would be off the charts if gods entered the field. But we ourselves see that that is not ever necessary. No epic levels of power are needed to deal with elder dragons, no epic levels of power were needed to deal with Balthazar. Her proclamations are at odds with how we as player character are dealing with those issues she is running away from.

And also, it took Kormir absorbing Abaddons power to mitigate the results of mortals fighting god

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:You also seem to be missing the fact that when Abaddon died, the magic released nearly destroyed Tyria despite being unleashed from the heart of the Realm of Torment - imagine if a god died in Tyria, and an Elder Dragon didn't consume the magic. Or if an Elder Dragon was around. The entire point of the gods not fighting is because if they kill 3 Elder Dragons, Tyria's dead. If one god dies, Tyria's dead.

Who ever said anything about gods dying on Tyria? The issue is that games portrays fighting elder dragons as way to easy of a feat to be afraid of gods dying or whatnot. But I do admit it is a legitimate risk to be worried about. Also, Gods could have fought within our "Aurene" plan. Its not "gods kill dragons- world end". Gods could've participated in the Glint's legacy more actively.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:And can the gods put the Elder Dragons to sleep? Not while there's delicious magic in the form of the gods themselves there to wake them right back up.

Or they can put them back to sleep and go back to the mists?

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@kasoki.5180 said:And both of those would be there if Kormir was the one who stabbed Balthazar with Sohotin, not us. Simply proclaiming some magical effect without prooving it doesnt make it so. Again, how would things be different if Kormir was there? They wouldn't be, it would just be easier.

If Kormir waited for the exact same situation to occur, used Sohothin, and made sure Kralkatorrik and Aurene were there to absorb Balthazar's unleashed magic, then sure, that would happen. But 1) Kormir would have reached him sooner, resulting in no dragon to be there, or 2) Kralkatorrik would also be after Kormir, who's a fucking lighthouse of magical energy due to being a god, thus either resulting in a) Kralkatorrik having the power of a full-fledged god on top of the fallen god's partially restored magic, b) the world destruction because Kormir would win and Aurene wasn't ready (she couldn't handle the small amount she took from Balthazar), or c) the world's destruction because Kralkatorrik couldn't absorb truly divine magic (something suggested a few times over).

@kasoki.5180 said:How is this "entirely false"? This is literally the main story. And unless Anet plans to tell this story into infinity this story will somehow end. We absolutely will somehow deal with dragons, one way or another. Also, killing them was just one of the options. And saying how killing them is not on the table is not true since we already killed two, and just tried to kill the third. We absolutely will deal with dragons. That is literally the entire story of the game. Which means that Kormir's defeatist attitude is a priori wrong from a meta-narrative standpoint.

What's entirely false isn't "we're going to deal with the dragons", it's "So her whole reasoning that gods simply cannot be part of it for some space-magic reason is again something that we know as players not to be true. Anything that we are going to do to remaining dragons could be easily done by Gods."

Re-read my previous post with that in mind.

And about "saying how killing them is not on the table is not true since we already killed two, and just tried to kill the third" - that's wholly false, because "literally the main story" tells us that the world can only handle the death of three Elder Dragons. We, again, require replacements first. The only reason we could try to kill Kralkatorrik was because Aurene was present and ready, which wouldn't have been true had Kormir intervened in Path of Fire after we met her.

@kasoki.5180 said:That makes no sense. It would make sense if killing balthazar took some epic effort. So then you could reason it with extensive damages, but we literally stabbed him with a magical sword. There was no epic power leveles fight needed. Thats why i'm saying that narrative pushed by Kormir is at odds with what game otherwise presents.And that is the core issue. Kormir keeps saying that "power levels" would be off the charts if gods entered the field. But we ourselves see that that is not ever necessary. No epic levels of power are needed to deal with elder dragons, no epic levels of power were needed to deal with Balthazar. Her proclamations are at odds with how we as player character are dealing with those issues she is running away from.

And also, it took Kormir absorbing Abaddons power to mitigate the results of mortals fighting god

Think of it like this:

Taking a mortal is like taking a machine gun to infiltrate a ship that's able to fire ballistic missiles and obliterate a city.

Taking a god is like taking a nuke to infiltrate a ship that's able to fire ballistic missiles and obliterate a city.

The way Kormir words it, is that the gods aren't capable of just "stabbing with a magical sword" (which isn't only what we did, tbh, not would be needed by Kormir since we needed Sohothin for the damage buff). The gods aren't capable of fighting like mortals fight, their power is too great.

@kasoki.5180 said:Who ever said anything about gods dying on Tyria? The issue is that games portrays fighting elder dragons as way to easy of a feat to be afraid of gods dying or whatnot. But I do admit it is a legitimate risk to be worried about. Also, Gods could have fought within our "Aurene" plan. Its not "gods kill dragons- world end". Gods could've participated in the Glint's legacy more actively.

Kormir said something about gods dying. It's literally her entire fucking point on top of the nuke versus machine gun. Either the gods win, and kill the Elder Dragons without replacement ready and the world dies. Or the dragons win and kill a god and either a) cannot consume that magic thus the world dies, or b) consumes the magic and becomes so powerful that what they are now, even Kralk atm, is laughably weak in comparison.

@kasoki.5180 said:Or they can put them back to sleep and go back to the mists?

How? How does one put an Elder Dragon to sleep?

The only way that's been managed is by using a (literal mcguffin) device that does something even the gods cannot, altering the very nature of Tyria's The All.

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@Genesis.8572 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:How? How does one put an Elder Dragon to sleep?

The only way that's been managed is by using a (literal mcguffin) device that does something even the gods cannot, altering the very nature of Tyria's The All.Hasn't this been the dragon strategy for the Order of Whispers from the beginning? Put them back to sleep.

Rather than a strategy, the very short-lived barely brought up subplot was that the OoW believed the Elder Dragons could not be killed and that the only method of victory was to find a way to put them to sleep. They never knew if such was possible, let alone knew how to do so.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:@Sir Vincent III.1286Incidentally, you highlight the important point countering your argument, while completely skirting around it. The Elder Dragons were asleep, with still 1,000 years' worth of magic inside of them before getting hungry during gw1's era.

1,000 year worth of magic inside? Where did that number came from? Primo was sound asleep when Abaddon died just as he was sound asleep when the gods were duking it out.

Primo stirred at the residual, RESIDUAL, magic released by Abaddon's death, yet he didn't flinched while the gods were duking it out releasing large amount of magic. The amount is large enough that turned the sea into a desert.

That's a pretty big difference than being awake, hungry, and attentive, and being asleep and still sated.

Primo was not awake, hungry, and attentive when Abaddon died so that argument is invalid.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:@Sir Vincent III.1286Incidentally, you highlight the important point countering your argument, while completely skirting around it. The Elder Dragons were asleep, with still 1,000 years' worth of magic inside of them before getting hungry during gw1's era.

1,000 year worth of magic inside? Where did that number came from? Primo was sound asleep when Abaddon died just as he was sound asleep when the gods were duking it out.

Primo stirred at the residual, RESIDUAL, magic released by Abaddon's death, yet he didn't flinched while the gods were duking it out releasing large amount of magic. The amount is large enough that turned the sea into a desert.

Primordus stirred due to the magic released from Abaddon's death. Not residual, but the magic that Kormir absorbed.

Kormir: I was there to contain the damage, but by then it was too late.Kormir: The surge of power upended the balance of magic in Tyria, and stirred Primordus from his slumber—triggering this latest cycle of destruction.

That moment of the magic being unleashed before being contained again is what stirred Primordus. It didn't stir Primordus until the moment it was released.

That said...

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

That's a pretty big difference than being awake, hungry, and attentive, and being asleep and still sated.

Primo was not awake, hungry, and attentive when Abaddon died so that argument is invalid.

True. But I wasn't referring to when Abaddon died at all in my comment anyways. (My only reference to GW1's content in general was that was when the Elder Dragons became hungry, as stated by Glint in Edge of Destiny; their bellies were empty 300 years prior to that confrontation, aka ~45 years before Abaddon's death).

I was referring to the act of the gods walking on Tyria. Before the Exodus, the Elder Dragons were asleep and sated still for 1,000 years. But if the Six Gods were to arrive on the world now, as the whole "why can't the gods just fight the Elder Dragons" argument would require, the Elder Dragons are awake, and actively devouring magic from multiple sources.

Thus, because the Elder Dragons are now awake, hungry, and attentive, the Six Gods may act as a beacon for their attention if they return to Tyria, while the Six didn't while the Elder Dragons were asleep, unattentive, and sated while on Tyria prior to the Exodus.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:@Sir Vincent III.1286Incidentally, you highlight the important point countering your argument, while completely skirting around it. The Elder Dragons were asleep, with still 1,000 years' worth of magic inside of them before getting hungry during gw1's era.

1,000 year worth of magic inside? Where did that number came from? Primo was sound asleep when Abaddon died just as he was sound asleep when the gods were duking it out.

Primo stirred at the residual, RESIDUAL, magic released by Abaddon's death, yet he didn't flinched while the gods were duking it out releasing large amount of magic. The amount is large enough that turned the sea into a desert.

Primordus stirred due to the magic released from Abaddon's death. Not residual, but the magic that Kormir absorbed.

Kormir: I was there to contain the damage, but by then it was too late.Kormir: The surge of power upended the balance of magic in Tyria, and stirred Primordus from his slumber—triggering this latest cycle of destruction.

That moment of the magic being unleashed before being contained again is what stirred Primordus. It didn't stir Primordus until the moment it was released.

That said...

That's a pretty big difference than being awake, hungry, and attentive, and being asleep and still sated.

Primo was not awake, hungry, and attentive when Abaddon died so that argument is invalid.

True. But I wasn't referring to when Abaddon died at all in my comment anyways. (My only reference to GW1's content in general was that was when the Elder Dragons became hungry, as stated by Glint in Edge of Destiny; their bellies were empty 300 years prior to that confrontation, aka ~45 years before Abaddon's death).

I was referring to the act of the gods walking on Tyria. Before the Exodus, the Elder Dragons were asleep and sated still for 1,000 years. But if the Six Gods were to arrive on the world
now
, as the whole "why can't the gods just fight the Elder Dragons" argument would require, the Elder Dragons are awake, and actively devouring magic from multiple sources.

Thus, because the Elder Dragons are
now
awake, hungry, and attentive, the Six Gods may act as a beacon for their attention if they return to Tyria, while the Six didn't while the Elder Dragons were asleep, unattentive, and sated while on Tyria prior to the Exodus.

That's still not valid since Primo and Jormag was sent back to slumber before we asked Kormir for help. So if the gods came to help to fight Balthazar then later on Kral, the other Dragons will continue to slumber. Which makes Kormir's excuse not to intervene unacceptable.

Since we also know that the other gods can absorb magic just as Lyssa absorbed some of Abaddon's magic, all Five could kill both Balt and Kral and absorb the magic among themselves to prevent a catastrophe. The new god of war could use the magic also. Besides, as the commander, I am ready to do what Kormir did -- ascend to godhood by absorbing the magic.

Why was it that the commander was denied the same chance that was given to Kormir when Balthazar died? The commander could have been the demigod of war.

(To be honest, Kormir stole that moment from my GW1 character also. My GW1 character would have been the god of Truth right now.)

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Besides, as the commander, I am ready to do what Kormir did -- ascend to godhood by absorbing the magic.

Why was it that the commander was denied the same chance that was given to Kormir when Balthazar died? The commander could have been the demigod of war.

(To be honest, Kormir stole that moment from my GW1 character also. My GW1 character would have been the god of Truth right now.)

You don’t see the problem with making the PC a god in GW1 or GW2?

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:That's still not valid since Primo and Jormag was sent back to slumber before we asked Kormir for help. So if the gods came to help to fight Balthazar then later on Kral, the other Dragons will continue to slumber. Which makes Kormir's excuse not to intervene unacceptable.

So, you're saying that Primordus and Jormag are the only Elder Dragons in existence?

Because then you'd be wrong.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Since we also know that the other gods can absorb magic just as Lyssa absorbed some of Abaddon's magic, all Five could kill both Balt and Kral and absorb the magic among themselves to prevent a catastrophe. The new god of war could use the magic also.

Lyssa never absorbed any of Abaddon's magic. If you think she did because she's goddess of water, she was goddess of reflctions and water surfaces even before and during Nightfall. Nothing suggests a full-fledged god can continue to absorb magic.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Besides, as the commander, I am ready to do what Kormir did -- ascend to godhood by absorbing the magic.

Why was it that the commander was denied the same chance that was given to Kormir when Balthazar died? The commander could have been the demigod of war.

(To be honest, Kormir stole that moment from my GW1 character also. My GW1 character would have been the god of Truth right now.)

Balthazar was no longer a god when he died. He had no divinity to pass on. The Commander cannot become a god because one does not simply absorb god magic, they must be blessed first. And there is a MASSIVE issue in story and mechanics with the concept of making player characters gods. Besides the fact that it would be impossible to ever name the new god, while we can all be a Pact Commander, not all players can be a member of the Six Gods. And that's just the beginning of the issues.

Players becoming godlike beings of mass importance is a series ender, because you'd never be able to reference that character.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:That's still not valid since Primo and Jormag was sent back to slumber before we asked Kormir for help. So if the gods came to help to fight Balthazar then later on Kral, the other Dragons will continue to slumber. Which makes Kormir's excuse not to intervene unacceptable.

So, you're saying that Primordus and Jormag are the only Elder Dragons in existence?

Because then you'd be wrong.

If you're referring to the the Deep Sea Dragon, I doubt that it will come to the surface to challenge the gods.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Since we also know that the other gods can absorb magic just as Lyssa absorbed some of Abaddon's magic, all Five could kill both Balt and Kral and absorb the magic among themselves to prevent a catastrophe. The new god of war could use the magic also.

Lyssa never absorbed any of Abaddon's magic. If you think she did because she's goddess of water, she was goddess of reflctions and water surfaces even before and during Nightfall. Nothing suggests a full-fledged god can continue to absorb magic.

Eh? Lyssa was never the goddess of water. Abaddon was the god of water. After Abaddon died, now Lyssa is the goddess of water. Just as Kormir became the goddess of Truth after absorbing Abaddon's magic, Lyssa became the goddess of water after absorbing his magic.

Reflection on the water does not give her power to rule water. You can also see reflection on ice, yet Grenth rules over ice, not Lyssa.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Besides, as the commander, I am ready to do what Kormir did -- ascend to godhood by absorbing the magic.

Why was it that the commander was denied the same chance that was given to Kormir when Balthazar died? The commander could have been the demigod of war.

(To be honest, Kormir stole that moment from my GW1 character also. My GW1 character would have been the god of Truth right now.)

Balthazar was no longer a god when he died. He had no divinity to pass on. The Commander cannot become a god because one does not simply absorb god magic, they must be blessed first. And there is a
MASSIVE
issue in story and mechanics with the concept of making player characters gods. Besides the fact that it would be impossible to ever name the new god, while we can all be a Pact Commander, not all players can be a member of the
Six
Gods. And that's just the beginning of the issues.

Players becoming godlike beings of mass importance is a series ender, because you'd never be able to reference that character.

I never said the commander becoming god, rather a demigod because that's what Balthazar is without his divinity.

As for the player taking on the power of Abaddon in GW1, the player will simply become the new Abaddon. Just like Wesley taking on the mantle of Dread Pirate Roberts. It just take a little creative thinking to overcome that hurdle.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:That's still not valid since Primo and Jormag was sent back to slumber before we asked Kormir for help. So if the gods came to help to fight Balthazar then later on Kral, the other Dragons will continue to slumber. Which makes Kormir's excuse not to intervene unacceptable.

So, you're saying that Primordus and Jormag are the only Elder Dragons in existence?

Because then you'd be wrong.

If you're referring to the the Deep Sea Dragon, I doubt that it will come to the surface to challenge the gods.

I mean, there's literally also Kralkatorrik, since we're talking about before Balthazar even entered Vabbi.

And if we go into the realm of hypotheticals, then all six Elder Dragons count for the argument.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Since we also know that the other gods can absorb magic just as Lyssa absorbed some of Abaddon's magic, all Five could kill both Balt and Kral and absorb the magic among themselves to prevent a catastrophe. The new god of war could use the magic also.

Lyssa never absorbed any of Abaddon's magic. If you think she did because she's goddess of water, she was goddess of reflctions and water surfaces even before and during Nightfall. Nothing suggests a full-fledged god can continue to absorb magic.

Eh? Lyssa was never the goddess of water. Abaddon was the god of water. After Abaddon died, now Lyssa is the goddess of water. Just as Kormir became the goddess of Truth after absorbing Abaddon's magic, Lyssa became the goddess of water after absorbing his magic.

Reflection on the water does not give her power to rule water. You can also see reflection on ice, yet Grenth rules over ice, not Lyssa.

Lyssa never absorbed his magic. We literally witness, first hand, ALL of Abaddon's magic going into Kormir. There was none left over for Lyssa to rule.

And yes, Lyssa has references to reflection and water before Abaddon's death. We see it plain as sight in both the Mirror of Lyss area in Vabbi (in the area itself and in GW1), and in the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance in Orr.

Lyssa isn't the only one who gains/loses "secondary domains" with Kormir's rise. Light and Spirit goes from Dwayna to Kormir. Just as Dhuum has jack shit on Ice despite it being Grenth's main secondary domain. The Gods' true domains are shown as being Life, Death, War(/Conflict), Knowledge(/Truth/Secrets/Wisdom), Beauty, and Nature. Not fire, ice, water, light, order, spirit, darkness, etc.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Besides, as the commander, I am ready to do what Kormir did -- ascend to godhood by absorbing the magic.

Why was it that the commander was denied the same chance that was given to Kormir when Balthazar died? The commander could have been the demigod of war.

(To be honest, Kormir stole that moment from my GW1 character also. My GW1 character would have been the god of Truth right now.)

Balthazar was no longer a god when he died. He had no divinity to pass on. The Commander cannot become a god because one does not simply absorb god magic, they must be blessed first. And there is a
MASSIVE
issue in story and mechanics with the concept of making player characters gods. Besides the fact that it would be impossible to ever name the new god, while we can all be a Pact Commander, not all players can be a member of the
Six
Gods. And that's just the beginning of the issues.

Players becoming godlike beings of mass importance is a series ender, because you'd never be able to reference that character.

I never said the commander becoming god, rather a demigod because that's what Balthazar is without his divinity.

As for the player taking on the power of Abaddon in GW1, the player will simply become the new Abaddon. Just like Wesley taking on the mantle of Dread Pirate Roberts. It just take a little creative thinking to overcome that hurdle.

I literally quoted you saying that the commander should/would "ascend to godhood".

You wanna know the difference between an MMO player character with a sequel MMO becoming a god, compared to a movie character taking on a mortal role?

  1. You cannot name that player character, ever, because there is no way to voice an infinitely randomized name.
  2. You cannot even put the name in text in the sequel, because even when linking accounts, every and any account could have more than one character. Thus, the god would be eternally unnamed. Or ArenaNet would have to give a new name that has jack shit relation to your GW1 character and thus it feels like they followed a different canon that erased all you've done in the previous game because it wasn't really your character in the end.
  3. You cannot show the godliness in mechanics, because that will imbalance the game. Pre-godhood and post-godhood would be fundamentally the same damn thing.
  4. You cannot show the godliness in visuals, unless it is client-based, because then there would be visually a million gods out and about.
  5. Per point 3, you cannot make new content or story, because you're a fucking god, what can be a reasonable plot that cannot be solved with a snap of your fingers. Especially as the god of knowledge, by rights you should have all the knowledge in the world if not universe and be incapable of being tricked or manipulated (otherwise you're not really a god of knowledge) or have issue knowing the enemies' plans and intentions, and as god unless the enemy is a godkiller, you'd no doubt have the power to just solve the issue in a single instance.

It's more than "a hurdle", it's literally impossible.

It's doable in a single player game, it'd be something that could happen if GW was like Dragon Age, but it simply isn't feasible with impact in an MMO.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:That's still not valid since Primo and Jormag was sent back to slumber before we asked Kormir for help. So if the gods came to help to fight Balthazar then later on Kral, the other Dragons will continue to slumber. Which makes Kormir's excuse not to intervene unacceptable.

So, you're saying that Primordus and Jormag are the only Elder Dragons in existence?

Because then you'd be wrong.

If you're referring to the the Deep Sea Dragon, I doubt that it will come to the surface to challenge the gods.

I mean, there's literally also Kralkatorrik, since we're talking about before Balthazar even entered Vabbi.

And if we go into the realm of hypotheticals, then all six Elder Dragons count for the argument.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Since we also know that the other gods can absorb magic just as Lyssa absorbed some of Abaddon's magic, all Five could kill both Balt and Kral and absorb the magic among themselves to prevent a catastrophe. The new god of war could use the magic also.

Lyssa never absorbed any of Abaddon's magic. If you think she did because she's goddess of water, she was goddess of reflctions and water surfaces even before and during Nightfall. Nothing suggests a full-fledged god can continue to absorb magic.

Eh? Lyssa was never the goddess of water. Abaddon was the god of water. After Abaddon died, now Lyssa is the goddess of water. Just as Kormir became the goddess of Truth after absorbing Abaddon's magic, Lyssa became the goddess of water after absorbing his magic.

Reflection on the water does not give her power to rule water. You can also see reflection on ice, yet Grenth rules over ice, not Lyssa.

Lyssa never absorbed his magic. We literally witness, first hand,
ALL
of Abaddon's magic going into Kormir. There was none left over for Lyssa to rule.

And yes, Lyssa has references to reflection and water before Abaddon's death. We see it plain as sight in both the Mirror of Lyss area in Vabbi (in the area itself and in GW1), and in the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance in Orr.

Lyssa isn't the only one who gains/loses "secondary domains" with Kormir's rise. Light and Spirit goes from Dwayna to Kormir. Just as Dhuum has jack kitten on Ice despite it being Grenth's main secondary domain. The Gods' true domains are shown as being Life, Death, War(/Conflict), Knowledge(/Truth/Secrets/Wisdom), Beauty, and Nature. Not fire, ice, water, light, order, spirit, darkness, etc.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Besides, as the commander, I am ready to do what Kormir did -- ascend to godhood by absorbing the magic.

Why was it that the commander was denied the same chance that was given to Kormir when Balthazar died? The commander could have been the demigod of war.

(To be honest, Kormir stole that moment from my GW1 character also. My GW1 character would have been the god of Truth right now.)

Balthazar was no longer a god when he died. He had no divinity to pass on. The Commander cannot become a god because one does not simply absorb god magic, they must be blessed first. And there is a
MASSIVE
issue in story and mechanics with the concept of making player characters gods. Besides the fact that it would be impossible to ever name the new god, while we can all be a Pact Commander, not all players can be a member of the
Six
Gods. And that's just the beginning of the issues.

Players becoming godlike beings of mass importance is a series ender, because you'd never be able to reference that character.

I never said the commander becoming god, rather a demigod because that's what Balthazar is without his divinity.

As for the player taking on the power of Abaddon in GW1, the player will simply become the new Abaddon. Just like Wesley taking on the mantle of Dread Pirate Roberts. It just take a little creative thinking to overcome that hurdle.

I literally quoted you saying that the commander should/would "ascend to godhood".

You wanna know the difference between an MMO player character with a sequel MMO becoming a god, compared to a movie character taking on a mortal role?
  1. You cannot name that player character, ever, because there is no way to voice an infinitely randomized name.
  2. You cannot even put the name in text in the sequel, because even when linking accounts, every and any account could have more than one character. Thus, the god would be eternally unnamed. Or ArenaNet would have to give a new name that has jack kitten relation to your GW1 character and thus it feels like they followed a different canon that erased all you've done in the previous game because it wasn't really your character in the end.
  3. You cannot show the godliness in mechanics, because that will imbalance the game. Pre-godhood and post-godhood would be fundamentally the same kitten thing.
  4. You cannot show the godliness in visuals, unless it is client-based, because then there would be visually a million gods out and about.
  5. Per point 3, you cannot make new content or story, because you're a kitten god, what can be a reasonable plot that cannot be solved with a snap of your fingers. Especially as the god of knowledge, by rights you should have all the knowledge in the world if not universe and be incapable of being tricked or manipulated (otherwise you're not really a god of knowledge) or have issue knowing the enemies' plans and intentions, and as god unless the enemy is a godkiller, you'd no doubt have the power to just solve the issue in a single instance.

It's more than "a hurdle", it's literally impossible.

It's doable in a single player game, it'd be something that could happen if GW was like Dragon Age, but it simply isn't feasible with impact in an MMO.

This is a very interesting reply.

First you argue that Kormir cannot help because of the Dragon then you end your reply trying to argue against the player becoming god since as a god, I can simply solve anything "with a snap of my fingers". This is really my point, I only want to assume Kormir's godhood only because she not very good at her job.

Let's think about this for a minute here. As a god, assuming that my GW1 character becomes the god instead of Kormir, I can end Balthazar and the ED with a snap of my fingers, however just as you said, it's not a reasonable plot. But why Kormir refuse to do just that, solve the problem with a single snap?

If being a god would be that powerful, then why are the EDs a problem for Kormir, let alone to all Six?If being a god would be that powerful, they could've ended Balthazar right there and then.Even if the ED fully woke up and saw the Deep Sea Dragon flopping on Lion's Arch like Magicarp out of water, all it would take is one snap, right?

We know for a fact that when the gods did battle each other, the extent of the damage is the Crystal Desert. Minuscule compare to the rest of Tyria and there were no global damagse like weather pattern change, sea level rising, or "global warming". None. Instead, the creatures in Tyria are only in danger to each other. So the argument that they will destroy Tyria, assuming that they are capable to do so which I doubt, is implausible.

At the same time, we know for a fact the the Elder Dragons awoken before and also did not destroy Tyria even though they are more powerful than the gods.

So those are the facts, the gods cannot destroy Tyria nor can the Elder Dragons. These facts have not been disputed.

With that in mind, Kormir made the excuse that their battle against Balthazar will destroy Tyria. I believe she's lying.

First of all she's not Glint who can see the future. Second, she may be the god of Truth, but she's also the god of Secrets. I believe that she's keeping the truth a secret. As a god of truth I would know how to end Balthazar with minimal damage and even if I cannot personally do it, I would grant power to the mortals to get the job done. The gods did that when the humans were fighting the menace of the world in GW1. The gods should have stayed and helped.

The truth of the matter is, Kormir knows that there is no saving Tyria that the Elder Dragons wakes up and slumber in a cycle to reset Tyria every 10,000 years...sounds familiar? Of course it is, anyone who played Mass Effect knows this. So Kormir and the gods decided to bail before the shit hits the fan. She knew that the death of Balthazar, either by their hands or ours, will empower Kral. She knew that the chain of event will lead to Kral attacking the Mist where the gods are. If they refused to fight in Tyria, they could've battle Kral in the Mist. Yet they choose to leave. If knowing all these truths, they could have helped us imprison Balthazar again instead of letting us kill him.

Here's the thing, I doubt that Balthazar simply offered his hands to be chained without a fight. I doubt that he surrendered without any effort to resist. They fought Abaddon before chaining him down, so it's safe to assume that Balthazar also put up a fight. But where are the damages? Did anybody even feel that some battle occurred? None. That to me shows that the Six has the power to stop Balthazar just as they did before without destroying Tyria, especially when Balthazar is not a god anymore.

Instead, Kormir let us kill Balthazar as if this is the outcome she always wanted -- let the Dragons send everything back to the stone age.

As for multiple players being a god, it can be done. Ever heard of Vishnu, a god who takes on multiple different avatars often times at the same time and still remain as one god? The gods of Tyria have used avatars before and they even manifest as one of the Dervish's form. The gods sending avatars is not a new concept and each player can be an avatar of the same god.

EDIT: typos

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