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The epic PvP experience of a Thief.


Carnifex.3275

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Yeah most games that have different class architectypes usually have a fast agile glassy type that hits hard but cant take a hit and has to use active defenses not passive defenses to stay alive. Gw2 is the only game I've ever played that had a fast agile character that hit decent and ticked the other boxes that was changed due to complaints to a fast agile character that doesnt hit hard,cant take a hit and has to use active defenses to compete with classes that now are fast,agile,hit hard and have tons of passive defenses in comparison but thiefs bit more agile so it's ok lmao. While thief slowly got ruined all its strengths got scattered around to other classes.

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@"Kolly.9872" said:I agree with the OP on everythingI also came back to the game after a 2 years break just for seeing nothing changed.Thief is unplayable now even for the best players. and also it's not fun when your only role in a PvP match is to decap empty nodes.Anet should promote active play over passive, but instead is nerfing to the ground everything that requires a bit of skill.Good job

u know the difference of this post that i've posted in HoT days? every1 was disagreeing with me (only old players agreeing). they still were trying to argue that thief is viable. now that i see replies in this post makes it quite obvious of the state of thief... no one even tries to argue anymore cuz yea.. its obvious at this point that anet killed it. ppl try to argue "but the mobility (mirage/rev at high level can do it)", "but the stealth (mirage again can do it)", "but the burst" (err. even core mesmer can have a better burst).. so yea. oh and also i've had lots of "you're a +1 class. decap class" i always asked "but that kinda says it all doesnt it? it's so weak that it has to +1 and SB#5 to run away and "decap" " .. atleast its obvious now what has started since HoT days with the Thief class. i really hope Anet will address this and for future players that are really up to the challenge (cuz some ppl actually want the challenge and get skilled and rewarded u know? i always loved classes that are underdogs just to overcome the odds) i really hope you'll get the feeling of what once was risk = awesome reward. now its risk = meh reward.

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@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:Yeah most games that have different class architectypes usually have a fast agile glassy type that hits hard but cant take a hit and has to use active defenses not passive defenses to stay alive. Gw2 is the only game I've ever played that had a fast agile character that hit decent and ticked the other boxes that was changed due to complaints to a fast agile character that doesnt hit hard,cant take a hit and has to use active defenses to compete with classes that now are fast,agile,hit hard and have tons of passive defenses in comparison but thiefs bit more agile so it's ok lmao. While thief slowly got ruined all its strengths got scattered around to other classes.

i tell u what.. just for example in ESO on my "thief" (nightblade) class i gotta be active and focus. its risky and on edge... but hell i'm able to 1v3 when i play really focused. skill = reward. in gw2 tho...... totally another story. that's the main issue. skill = nothing. passives = everythin.

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@Kolly.9872 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:I miss the days when teefs were op, yet they all had this persecution complex. simpler times.

Thief was never OP.. At its best it was balanced for a short period of time.

ohhh it was OP believe me. OP for the people who know all the mechanics of other classes. u could counter anyone if you play smart. basically to be good thief u had to roll every other class and learn em. then you go back to your main and demolish all of em. that's what it means "active defenses" over "passive defenses". active ones used to be rewarded at high end game.

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That's another problem. Theif sucks these days at fighting so was relegatedt to +1 due to having to grossly out play some one in a 1v1 or cheese backstabbing to win a fight so being fast but bad at fighting relegated it to a +1 role and due to its mobility with sb5 it's the best decapper so though that makes it useful in a game type like conquest if played right and that's what arenet see's,thiefs in high level pvp on winning teams so they think it's still performing good. By their standards theievescoulddo zero damage and be used only to decap and as long as its useful it's ok regardless to how boring a role or useless it's elsewhere in the game. Who thinks it's fun to just decap? Plus other classes are becoming better +1 classes lol. Perfect example arenetsaid their leaving necro as is in pvp due to strong player numbers. Not saying they need changes just that's not a reliable indicator.

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@Dave.6819 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:I miss the days when teefs were op, yet they all had this persecution complex. simpler times.

Thief was never OP.. At its best it was balanced for a short period of time.

ohhh it was OP believe me. OP for the people who know all the mechanics of other classes. u could counter anyone if you play smart. basically to be good thief u had to roll every other class and learn em. then you go back to your main and demolish all of em. that's what it means "active defenses" over "passive defenses". active ones used to be rewarded at high end game.

exactly.. that's the definition of a balanced class to me. I play thief since beta era and I know how to play many other classes nowadays even tho nothing appeals me like to play a thief. When I say that thief is the only realy balanced class I mean that it is the only class that requires actually skill and active reaction to play and a knowledge of the game mechanics. Nowadays everyone can just play scrapper evffectively because the class plays itself passively.

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exactly.. that's the definition of a balanced class to me. I play thief since beta era and I know how to play many other classes nowadays even tho nothing appeals me like to play a thief. When I say that thief is the only realy balanced class I mean that it is the only class that requires actually skill and active reaction to play and a knowledge of the game mechanics. Nowadays everyone can just play scrapper evffectively because the class plays itself passively.

yup. it's a pity that anet went this way (altho it might be just by accident). promoting active and skilled gameplay caters to real hardcore players.. and they will stick to your company for ages. promoting passive gameplay caters to casuals which will come and go. what kind of peeps are better in a long run? well these things that Anet has to sit down and discuss upon. take for example Aion. Aion was always catering to active hardcore players and even tho it's pretty dead now... it used to be an awesome game full of loyal skilled oldies. but the second they started to cater to casuals and p2w all community came together and left the game. and that's why Aion is dead. Anet has to consider these things if they want to keep gw2 alive. Hardcore skilled players are loyal as it gets.. but once you betray em.. you'll see your game dying sooner then later.

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@Dave.6819 said:

exactly
..
that's the definition of a balanced class to me
. I play thief since beta era and I know how to play many other classes nowadays even tho nothing appeals me like to play a thief. When I say that thief is the only realy balanced class I mean that it is the only class that requires actually skill and active reaction to play and a knowledge of the game mechanics. Nowadays everyone can just play scrapper evffectively because the class plays itself passively.

Anet has to consider these things if they want to keep gw2 alive. Hardcore skilled players are loyal as it gets.. but once you betray em.. you'll see your game dying sooner then later.

How would charactirize hardcore ppl , that asked the company to not nerf their classs ( so they can have more chances to win) ,but instead asked the company to bring up(powercrep) other classes , so we can see something new in meta and late whine on ?

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@"Elxdark.9702" said:bUt ThIeF hAs MoBiLiTy

thief is back to what it was at HoT release = a worse rev.literally the only thing that makes thief viable in 2019 is meme storm + improv, once they nerf those the class is dead.

And people keep asking me what I'm on about when I call rev "Thief with Defiant Stance." Both classes are equally castles built on sand, through: Revenant, the "other, other Thief" and Thief, the "beta-test stealth showcase."

As for the main gripe of this thread, Thief is inherently broken because it has no weapon CDs in a game that is exclusively balanced by CDs. Now, is balancing a game's unique abilities entirely by cooldowns a good idea? Absolutely not. Would GW2 have benefited from the implementation of a more universal resource system for skill use management? Truthfully, the fact that Initiative, on GW2, is confined to Thief is an egregious crime of game design. That said, Thief was never balanced because it was always the worst offender of "haha, I'm evading and teleporting repeatedly while attacking" and no class had any means to stop it.

Thieves never truly have to commit to a fight, and that's why its a hollow "playstyle" which ultimately does nothing but harm to a PvP environment. Fighting a Thief is basically just a slow game of whack-a-mole unless the Thief player knows that your CDs will constantly cycle over his windows during which he can spam evades and teleports while attacking (at which point, he just spans shortbow 5 in the opposite direction). If a Thief dies, it's never really the fault of the opponent because the "meta" Thief has always had a means of free escape. The only reason that the class underperforms now is because anet gave every other class (all with higher HP pools) basically the same sort of meme cancer that had kept the Thief in every PvP game prior to HoT.

Thief was never a skill-based class: it was a "know hard counters for free kills and watch the minimap" class. In fact, its combat paradigm, once exported to every other class in GW2, only further saddled the game's skill ceiling to claustrophobicly low heights.

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@Swagg.9236 said:

@"Elxdark.9702" said:bUt ThIeF hAs MoBiLiTy

thief is back to what it was at HoT release = a worse rev.literally the only thing that makes thief viable in 2019 is meme storm + improv, once they nerf those the class is dead.

And people keep asking me what I'm on about when I call rev "Thief with Defiant Stance." Both classes are equally castles built on sand, through: Revenant, the "other, other Thief" and Thief, the "beta-test stealth showcase."

As for the main gripe of this thread, Thief is inherently broken because it has no weapon CDs in a game that is exclusively balanced by CDs. Now, is balancing a game's unique abilities entirely by cooldowns a good idea? Absolutely not. Would GW2 have benefited from the implementation of a more universal resource system for skill use management? Truthfully, the fact that Initiative, on GW2, is confined to Thief is an egregious crime of game design. That said, Thief was never balanced because it was always the worst offender of "haha, I'm evading and teleporting repeatedly while attacking" and no class had any means to stop it.

Thieves never truly have to commit to a fight, and that's why its a hollow "playstyle" which ultimately does nothing but harm to a PvP environment. Fighting a Thief is basically just a slow game of whack-a-mole unless the Thief player knows that your CDs will constantly cycle over his windows during which he can spam evades and teleports while attacking (at which point, he just spans shortbow 5 in the opposite direction). If a Thief dies, it's never really the fault of the opponent because the "meta" Thief has always had a means of free escape. The only reason that the class underperforms now is because anet gave every other class (all with higher HP pools) basically the same sort of meme cancer that had kept the Thief in every PvP game prior to HoT.

Thief was never a skill-based class: it was a "know hard counters for free kills and watch the minimap" class. In fact, its combat paradigm, once exported to every other class in GW2, only further saddled the game's skill ceiling to claustrophobicly low heights.

No class requires skill, it's about reading your enemy and rotate skill cool downs because of passive stuff.

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Regardless of everything most classes in this game can out sustain thiefs damage all while dishing out more in most cases. This should not be the case for a class archetype such as thief. Whether it's a case of thiefs dps is to low now,is fine,other classes have too high dps/sustain it doesnt really matter. This game is full of classes that have tons of passive sustain with more sustain at a push of a button all while hitting high dps leading to hard carry classes.thiefs sustain is almost all active and very punishing if mistakes are made yet has to trade triple the blows to enemies most times if that's even enough to successfully win a fight,that's ridiculous balancing and ontop even then alot of times u can hit ur opponent three times more than they hit u and they'll outsustain ur dps and connect few hits and ur done. So the arguement is u can disengagement at will? Most classes these days have great mobility and anti disengagement skills to utilize, just because thief an run away it should be at a disadvantage in most engagement? That's silly. Thiefs traps areout dated as well and mostly useless outside of niche builds. Anyway dry for the incoherent rant, I'm sure thiefs exactly were most the community wants it to be lol.

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@Dave.6819 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:Yeah most games that have different class architectypes usually have a fast agile glassy type that hits hard but cant take a hit and has to use active defenses not passive defenses to stay alive. Gw2 is the only game I've ever played that had a fast agile character that hit decent and ticked the other boxes that was changed due to complaints to a fast agile character that doesnt hit hard,cant take a hit and has to use active defenses to compete with classes that now are fast,agile,hit hard and have tons of passive defenses in comparison but thiefs bit more agile so it's ok lmao. While thief slowly got ruined all its strengths got scattered around to other classes.

i tell u what.. just for example in ESO on my "thief" (nightblade) class i gotta be active and focus. its risky and on edge... but hell i'm able to 1v3 when i play really focused. skill = reward. in gw2 tho...... totally another story. that's the main issue. skill = nothing. passives = everythin.

Not to derail the thread but been thinking on trying eso, is it worth getting into these day?

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Yeah most games that have different class architectypes usually have a fast agile glassy type that hits hard but cant take a hit and has to use active defenses not passive defenses to stay alive. Gw2 is the only game I've ever played that had a fast agile character that hit decent and ticked the other boxes that was changed due to complaints to a fast agile character that doesnt hit hard,cant take a hit and has to use active defenses to compete with classes that now are fast,agile,hit hard and have tons of passive defenses in comparison but thiefs bit more agile so it's ok lmao. While thief slowly got ruined all its strengths got scattered around to other classes.

i tell u what.. just for example in ESO on my "thief" (nightblade) class i gotta be active and focus. its risky and on edge... but hell i'm able to 1v3 when i play really focused. skill = reward. in gw2 tho...... totally another story. that's the main issue. skill = nothing. passives = everythin.

Not to derail the thread but been thinking on trying eso, is it worth getting into these day?

ESO also has passive procs but they're linked to gear grind. The best monster sets require DLC and the best gear requires grinding pve. The main difference is your skill use in ESO is based on magicka or stamina. This means you can't just rotate through all your skills off cooldown or you'll run out of resources.

Magicka classes will use damage shields (http://esoacademy.com/faq/what-is-a-damage-shield/) to protect their health with restoration staffs or their class abilities. Meanwhile stamina classes will block with shields or try to dodge all of the attacks. Stamina classes also have an advantage when it comes to being crowd controlled as they can break free more often.

In ESO you need some form of magicka or stamina recovery depending on your class. There are many skills that return resources and there are many different armor sets.(https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Sets)

In my opinion ESO rewards a player who keeps their cool and doesn't rage. A player who can think ahead and plan their resource use patiently countering the game's mechanics. Many of the game's mechanics are simple but when layered upon each other in areas such as Veteran Maelstrom Arena the game's complexity shows.

You can tank up in heavy armor in ESO with a shield and not do much damage. Then there's light armor in the case of magicka using damage shields to protect their squishiness while doing massive AOE DPS. Or there's stamina DPS in medium armor which will generally be your fast-moving gankers. Notice how there's sacrifices made in ESO for their different gameplay styles.

ESO probably is a worse game compared to GW2 when it comes to the pvp. But it's a unique mmo and it brings its own fun if you give it a chance. The game will make you rage at the simplest things sometimes such as being killed by crowd control when you're out of stamina. Sometimes a game doesn't need to be complex to be challenging. It just needs risk vs reward and when you realise that your resources are running low you have to play more intelligently.

ESO doesn't reward spammers when it comes to pvp and in fact punishes them by making them die from lack of stamina/magicka. When you realise you died because you spammed all your damage mitigation away for nothing there is noone to blame but yourself. ESO takes time to appreciate its depth and if you don't mind a game that takes a lot of time investment to get your fun then it will give you that.

The only real fault of the game is the champion point system which gives players who have played since launch a big advantage. But there are non champion-point battlegrounds which are quite popular and 4v4v4 pvp. In cyrodil which is the WvWvW system of ESO there are massive zergs and massive lag. Because there is no aoe limit it can often cause lag but maybe that's because I'm Australian who knows?

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@getalifeturd.8139 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Yeah most games that have different class architectypes usually have a fast agile glassy type that hits hard but cant take a hit and has to use active defenses not passive defenses to stay alive. Gw2 is the only game I've ever played that had a fast agile character that hit decent and ticked the other boxes that was changed due to complaints to a fast agile character that doesnt hit hard,cant take a hit and has to use active defenses to compete with classes that now are fast,agile,hit hard and have tons of passive defenses in comparison but thiefs bit more agile so it's ok lmao. While thief slowly got ruined all its strengths got scattered around to other classes.

i tell u what.. just for example in ESO on my "thief" (nightblade) class i gotta be active and focus. its risky and on edge... but hell i'm able to 1v3 when i play really focused. skill = reward. in gw2 tho...... totally another story. that's the main issue. skill = nothing. passives = everythin.

Not to derail the thread but been thinking on trying eso, is it worth getting into these day?

ESO also has passive procs but they're linked to gear grind. The best monster sets require DLC and the best gear requires grinding pve. The main difference is your skill use in ESO is based on magicka or stamina. This means you can't just rotate through all your skills off cooldown or you'll run out of resources.

Magicka classes will use damage shields (
) to protect their health with restoration staffs or their class abilities. Meanwhile stamina classes will block with shields or try to dodge all of the attacks. Stamina classes also have an advantage when it comes to being crowd controlled as they can break free more often.

In ESO you need some form of magicka or stamina recovery depending on your class. There are many skills that return resources and there are many different armor sets.(
)

In my opinion ESO rewards a player who keeps their cool and doesn't rage. A player who can think ahead and plan their resource use patiently countering the game's mechanics. Many of the game's mechanics are simple but when layered upon each other in areas such as Veteran Maelstrom Arena the game's complexity shows.

You can tank up in heavy armor in ESO with a shield and not do much damage. Then there's light armor in the case of magicka using damage shields to protect their squishiness while doing massive AOE DPS. Or there's stamina DPS in medium armor which will generally be your fast-moving gankers. Notice how there's sacrifices made in ESO for their different gameplay styles.

ESO probably is a worse game compared to GW2 when it comes to the pvp. But it's a unique mmo and it brings its own fun if you give it a chance. The game will make you rage at the simplest things sometimes such as being killed by crowd control when you're out of stamina. Sometimes a game doesn't need to be complex to be challenging. It just needs risk vs reward and when you realise that your resources are running low you have to play more intelligently.

ESO doesn't reward spammers when it comes to pvp and in fact punishes them by making them die from lack of stamina/magicka. When you realise you died because you spammed all your damage mitigation away for nothing there is noone to blame but yourself. ESO takes time to appreciate its depth and if you don't mind a game that takes a lot of time investment to get your fun then it will give you that.

The only real fault of the game is the champion point system which gives players who have played since launch a big advantage. But there are non champion-point battlegrounds which are quire popular and 4v4v4 pvp. In cyrodil which is the WvWvW system of ESO there are massive zergs and massive lag. Because there is no aoe limit it can often cause lag but maybe that's because I'm Australian who knows?

Australian? Man I'm jealous, always wanted to visit there. One of my buds not out doors type alway joked Australia go outside and ur dead lmao.hes afraid of poisonous stuff lol anyway thanks for the info.being used to thief the slow combat is what worries me but rest sounds great.was thinking red guard nightblade

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@Daishi.6027 said:I blame conquest. You cannot avoid this mentality unless it’s buffed to OP carry levels, but that’s equally unhealthRevs are taking the +1 role and a lot of classes can get to nodes fast. I think most people that pvp thief now do it cuz they like the class more so than effectiveness. Can a sb with gs and bird or a mesmer not decap fast all while standing chance in 1v1 if it had to? I wouldn't be surprised if their play rates drop in near future

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ESO is a good game but it really suffers from performance issues (cyrodil always lagging, monthly login issues for steam users, now the newly found login queue during prime time, horrible fps drops on weaker cpus). What makes this is even worse is that the main difficulty of eso (attack weaving) is highly susceptible to low performance. If the their servers and game engine were better, it would be an amazing game (assuming you don't mind that pretty much every skills is instant and most cast animations can be canceled so that's impossible to actually see what's going on).If you like smooth movement and combat, you should stick to gw2 as ESO just feels super clunky compared to it.

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@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@"Elxdark.9702" said:bUt ThIeF hAs MoBiLiTy

thief is back to what it was at HoT release = a worse rev.literally the only thing that makes thief viable in 2019 is meme storm + improv, once they nerf those the class is dead.

And people keep asking me what I'm on about when I call rev "Thief with Defiant Stance." Both classes are equally castles built on sand, through: Revenant, the "other, other Thief" and Thief, the "beta-test stealth showcase."

As for the main gripe of this thread, Thief is inherently broken because it has no weapon CDs in a game that is exclusively balanced by CDs. Now, is balancing a game's unique abilities entirely by cooldowns a good idea? Absolutely not. Would GW2 have benefited from the implementation of a more universal resource system for skill use management? Truthfully, the fact that Initiative, on GW2, is confined to Thief is an egregious crime of game design. That said, Thief was never balanced because it was always the worst offender of "haha, I'm evading and teleporting repeatedly while attacking" and no class had any means to stop it.

Thieves never truly have to commit to a fight, and that's why its a hollow "playstyle" which ultimately does nothing but harm to a PvP environment. Fighting a Thief is basically just a slow game of whack-a-mole unless the Thief player knows that your CDs will constantly cycle over his windows during which he can spam evades and teleports while attacking (at which point, he just spans shortbow 5 in the opposite direction). If a Thief dies, it's never really the fault of the opponent because the "meta" Thief has always had a means of free escape. The only reason that the class underperforms now is because anet gave every other class (all with higher HP pools) basically the same sort of meme cancer that had kept the Thief in every PvP game prior to HoT.

Thief was never a skill-based class: it was a "know hard counters for free kills and watch the minimap" class. In fact, its combat paradigm, once exported to every other class in GW2, only further saddled the game's skill ceiling to claustrophobicly low heights.

No class requires skill

Yes, but plenty of people seem convinced (or deluded) of the contrary.

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This is what happens when a game mode is based solely on speed rather then skill. When you have one class that can cover distance 10x quicker then any other class then that makes it their sole purpose to cap / decap only with the speed.

If we had a real game mode like in gw2 then the theifs here wouldn't have to be just a bow #5 runner bot.

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The initiative system and Shortbow5 are the reasons that thief can't be strong at actual fighting, which is honestly sad because both of those are supposed to part of thief's profession signature.

The initiative system, together with the standard 10sec cooldown on weapon swap basically ensures that there will never be good synergy between different weaponsets while in combat, regardless of the weapon skills. Because unlike other professions, thief's class resource is shared between weapon sets, and a 10s CD makes it extra restrictive when it comes adapting to ever changing situations.

With other profs you frequently see an offensive weaponset complimented by a defense set or an utility/cc set, rotating through them to juggle cooldowns and alternating the pace. Even rev with it's energy system regains up to 50% energy on legend swap by default, 75% when traited. Thief, when traited, only gets a pitiful 3ini lol. As a result, almost all meta builds will just have one optimal weapon for fighting, and one weapon for running (sb5).

As long as this doesn't change, thief will always be a lesser force. Because from a 1vX perspective, it's effectively fighting with one hand tied behind it's back at all times.

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@Quadox.7834 said:

@bluri.2653 said:when has thief ever been a 1v1 god in sPVP lol the only real matchup you could have taken in 2013-2014 as S/D thief was hambow and a good hambow could still beat you it was a skill matchup, other than that you stood no chance vs engi etc or d/d eles so idk about 1v1 god lmao

Maybe old pistolwhip?

Acro staff is probably the only build that could toe to toe others because of the 3#/#4 spam but that's way before pof.

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