Mesmer design change suggestion — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Mesmer design change suggestion

Azaka.8315Azaka.8315 Member ✭✭
edited April 7, 2019 in Mesmer

We all know from countless 'nerf' threads that people in general don't like to play against Mesmers and it makes perfect sense because the core design is to make it hard to fight against.
The problem is that the inherent design of the Mesmer class is flawed. It is very hard to play against if you are a new player and it gets easier and easier the better you get and to balance that it has to be buffed in some other way to make it viable on the highest level which leads to even more problems in the lower levels.
I think that much is obvious to everyone that ever played any kind of PvP.

This core design makes Mesmer incredible hard to balance and in addition it leads to a lot of clutter on the battlefield that makes it even hard to watch from an outside perspective.
So my idea is as follows:
Mesmer illusions are meant to be in the head of the opponent, so why not make it that only the targeted player can actually see those illusions.
That means that nobody apart from the player targeted can destroy those illusions, but those illusions could also not damage anyone but that certain player.
My target with a change like that would intend to unclutter a bit of the mess that is PvP. It would also increase the impact of skills that retarget illusions and it could make illusions as entities more interesting, because with a focus like that Mesmer illusions could even be given a bit more substance.
Mesmers would still be very strong duelists, but could do a lot less team fighting with a build that relies on clones.

Don't get me wrong, that would be a very drastic change and there needs to be a lot of adjustments to make that work (maybe more options for less reliant clone play), but for me as a Mesmer player that would be an interesting change that would help everyone that has problems with the clutter Mesmer brings into the game with clones everywhere.

I'm not delusional, so I don't think I'm the first having that idea, but please tell me what you think about that and if you think that could work or why it couldn't.

Comments

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    What about invisible mind wrack aoe?

    // Yanim

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    sounds like a big change to only solve the L2P issue when fighting against mesmer

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Azaka.8315Azaka.8315 Member ✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    What about invisible mind wrack aoe?

    You should obviously only be hurt by something you can see, but my idea is a suggestion not a full detailed developer guidebook.
    There are a lot of changes and rebalancing that would be necessary, what to do with shatters and their aoe is one of the big points.

    @derd.6413 said:
    sounds like a big change to only solve the L2P issue when fighting against mesmer

    It is not to solve any L2P issue, we could even argue it could be worse in 1n1 situations, depending on the implementation. The idea is mainly to declutter teamfights, not only for players but also viewers and keep the Mesmer idea. Nobody can tell me that you can see everything in a teamfight with 2+ Mesmers spamming clones.

  • nthmetal.9652nthmetal.9652 Member ✭✭✭

    Such a change is kinda probematic IMO, as it would rid the mesmer of being able to target nonsentient targets with their powers. Good luck targeting siege or traps. You could work around that by saying "okay, then attackable objects, which do not have the ability to see or percieve anything can still be targeted like this", however there are more issues.

    It doesn't add many useful elements to the game: In smaller fights, where you have only one or two targets, nothing will change: These targets will see your illusions and fight with them - outsiders could not intervene to help them other than healing your targets, but generally this doesn't play much of a role.

    However what happens in zergs / bigger groups, where your clones execute ambush attacks and these ambush attacks have random elements, such as the split surge GS attack, or area effects with only a certain number of targets. Would the clones then blink into and out of existence for these people? What happens with powers, whoch retarget your clones? This might raise clone surviability, as many area effects suddenly wouldn't affect them anymore. I do not know, if this is broken, but it would definitely be a bigger balance change; in the big group content, however, clones are not dangerous enough to actually be considered that dangerous. If they deal conditions, they do not affetct enough targets to actually matter, even though they deal considerable condi damage; if they mostly deal power damage, even their ambush attacks are not dangerous enough to really matter. I think the lowered visibility of clones even makes them less relevant against larger groups as you lose the ability to cause irritation and chaos, as only a few players would ne affect in the end. Retargetting could even lead to the feeling of some attacks being effectively invisible to the target.

    All in all, I do not think this change would add anything meaningful to the situation, while still causing new problems.

    "and then we know that we have looked back through the ivory gates into that world of wonder which was ours before we were wise and unhappy"
    -- H. P. Lovecraft - Celephais

  • Azaka.8315Azaka.8315 Member ✭✭

    Good point about sieges and stuff, but lets be honest these are already a problem now and they need a rework anyway (especially since many of the older/PvP ones still can't get condi damaged).

    The useful element is of course to clean up the game to make it less of a mess. I think everybody can agree that to many effects are a huge problem with multiple players around and Mesmer is one of the prime offenders (Scourge is another one). The point of my suggestion is not to change that much in terms of 1n1, because I tried to keep the fundamental idea of Mesmer and the clones intact, but to fix some of the general problems the game has especially because of the way Mesmer specifically works.
    At the moment it is less of distraction by clones and more of distraction by effects flying all over the place and that, I think, is not what ArenaNet initially intended.

    For the last point I think clones should be strictly visible and damageable by the one player you target and vice versa. That is meant to represent the idea that you get into the head of your target and nobody else can help you inside your head. That is the idea, but as mentioned above this is a SUGGESTION not a full on guideline, to fix one of the problems the game had since the start AND it clearly needs a lot of changes in balance around that to make it work.
    This is basically the concept phase of an idea that intends to fix a problem that existed since the beginning, so it is pointless to think about numbers right now. Pretty sure with enough changes surrounding this you could make it balanced, but there is no point discussing this now.
    I'm more interested in feedback/ideas and a quick reminder they already did a small major change to phantasms not that long ago so something like that could not be that far out of the real of possibility, especially with the new focus from ArenaNet on the game and probably on existing problems.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    @Azaka.8315 said:

    Mesmer illusions are meant to be in the head of the opponent, so why not make it that only the targeted player can actually see those illusions.
    That means that nobody apart from the player targeted can destroy those illusions, but those illusions could also not damage anyone but that certain player.
    My target with a change like that would intend to unclutter a bit of the mess that is PvP. It would also increase the impact of skills that retarget illusions and it could make illusions as entities more interesting, because with a focus like that Mesmer illusions could even be given a bit more substance.

    Phantasms perform cleaving attacks. Shatters hit multiple targets. Making phantasms visible to only targeted players is actually a huge buff to mesmers, not a nerf.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    Don't see any needed to change something in this way. Btv nerf only in head. For some build I feel boost.
    Mesmer give panic and chaos ? This is ok, becaue it was main idea that that class is created. Trait line "Chaos" nothing say ?
    Thay class is uniq, so let him stay as is and proud

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2019

    My comments on this topic from a different thread

    I love the class fantasy of illusionist more than anything. But to be honest I've always felt like shatters were a bad mechanic to pair with mesmer and very inappropriate.

    Think about classic GW2 Mesmer before the Phantasm rework; you summon minions that swarm and distract the opponent. On longer cooldowns you can summon much more powerful and sturdy minions. At any time you can sacrifice your minions for powerful effects such as power damage, conditions, interrupts and even temporary survivability.

    That's not illusionist. That's minionmancer necromancer game play. It's like they accidentally gave Mesmer the Necromancer class mechanic. I think mesmer, chronomancer and mirage would be a lot more interesting if they had a different main class mechanic. Clones and the current iteration of phantasms are fine. But defeating a mesmer should revolve around how well you focus on the real mesmer and ignore the clones, not having to juggle both being aware of the mesmer while kiting and avoiding the clones to avoid shatters.

    Clones should still exist but they should both do no damage and take no damage. Any time they're struck they'd "Evade" automatically because illusions are classically intangible and interacting with them classically ends with the person simply phasing through them. The current iteration of Phantasms is fine as Phantasms that come out and do psionic damage are also part of the classic illusionist fantasy.

    Then you'd adjust mesmer's damage to compensate for shatters no longer existing. Then whatever class mechanic replaces shatters should probably have Entre Portal as the highest power cooldown. I think fighting a mesmer should be more about how you completely ignore the clones and waste as little time on them. You shouldn't have to worry about them hitting you for chip damage, condis in particular, and having to kite them around to avoid getting obliterated with shatters. And for the mesmer any time a clone eats an attack meant for them should be 100% positive, not an annoyance because you just lost your ammo for your class mechanic.

    @Azaka.8315 said:
    We all know from countless 'nerf' threads that people in general don't like to play against Mesmers and it makes perfect sense because the core design is to make it hard to fight against.
    The problem is that the inherent design of the Mesmer class is flawed. It is very hard to play against if you are a new player and it gets easier and easier the better you get and to balance that it has to be buffed in some other way to make it viable on the highest level which leads to even more problems in the lower levels.
    I think that much is obvious to everyone that ever played any kind of PvP.

    This core design makes Mesmer incredible hard to balance and in addition it leads to a lot of clutter on the battlefield that makes it even hard to watch from an outside perspective.
    So my idea is as follows:
    Mesmer illusions are meant to be in the head of the opponent, so why not make it that only the targeted player can actually see those illusions.

    Illusions are supposed to be visible to everyone and distract and confuse opponents. Classically everyone will see an illusion. It's phantasms that are in the head of the opponent.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Azaka.8315Azaka.8315 Member ✭✭
    edited April 13, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    My comments on this topic from a different thread

    I love the class fantasy of illusionist more than anything. But to be honest I've always felt like shatters were a bad mechanic to pair with mesmer and very inappropriate.

    Think about classic GW2 Mesmer before the Phantasm rework; you summon minions that swarm and distract the opponent. On longer cooldowns you can summon much more powerful and sturdy minions. At any time you can sacrifice your minions for powerful effects such as power damage, conditions, interrupts and even temporary survivability.

    That's not illusionist. That's minionmancer necromancer game play. It's like they accidentally gave Mesmer the Necromancer class mechanic. I think mesmer, chronomancer and mirage would be a lot more interesting if they had a different main class mechanic. Clones and the current iteration of phantasms are fine. But defeating a mesmer should revolve around how well you focus on the real mesmer and ignore the clones, not having to juggle both being aware of the mesmer while kiting and avoiding the clones to avoid shatters.

    Clones should still exist but they should both do no damage and take no damage. Any time they're struck they'd "Evade" automatically because illusions are classically intangible and interacting with them classically ends with the person simply phasing through them. The current iteration of Phantasms is fine as Phantasms that come out and do psionic damage are also part of the classic illusionist fantasy.

    Then you'd adjust mesmer's damage to compensate for shatters no longer existing. Then whatever class mechanic replaces shatters should probably have Entre Portal as the highest power cooldown. I think fighting a mesmer should be more about how you completely ignore the clones and waste as little time on them. You shouldn't have to worry about them hitting you for chip damage, condis in particular, and having to kite them around to avoid getting obliterated with shatters. And for the mesmer any time a clone eats an attack meant for them should be 100% positive, not an annoyance because you just lost your ammo for your class mechanic.

    @Azaka.8315 said:
    We all know from countless 'nerf' threads that people in general don't like to play against Mesmers and it makes perfect sense because the core design is to make it hard to fight against.
    The problem is that the inherent design of the Mesmer class is flawed. It is very hard to play against if you are a new player and it gets easier and easier the better you get and to balance that it has to be buffed in some other way to make it viable on the highest level which leads to even more problems in the lower levels.
    I think that much is obvious to everyone that ever played any kind of PvP.

    This core design makes Mesmer incredible hard to balance and in addition it leads to a lot of clutter on the battlefield that makes it even hard to watch from an outside perspective.
    So my idea is as follows:
    Mesmer illusions are meant to be in the head of the opponent, so why not make it that only the targeted player can actually see those illusions.

    Illusions are supposed to be visible to everyone and distract and confuse opponents. Classically everyone will see an illusion. It's phantasms that are in the head of the opponent.

    The whole minionmancer problem came to an end with the change to phantasms. I raise one issue to you that might bring you on board with my suggestion.
    If you limit the Mesmer illusions to one player as suggested, you maybe could rebalance illusions in a way that would allow you to have even more illusions and not just the three we got now, because the three illusion limit is an attempt to limit clutter and you wouldn't need to worry about that as much if the illusions are only visible to the player targeted.
    I went with the explanation ArenaNet gave us about how illusions are meant to manifest in the world, but I'm not sure if there is a waterproof explanation what is going on in the game when a Mesmer uses illsusions from the devs, if you have something like that I would like a link.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azaka.8315 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    My comments on this topic from a different thread

    I love the class fantasy of illusionist more than anything. But to be honest I've always felt like shatters were a bad mechanic to pair with mesmer and very inappropriate.

    Think about classic GW2 Mesmer before the Phantasm rework; you summon minions that swarm and distract the opponent. On longer cooldowns you can summon much more powerful and sturdy minions. At any time you can sacrifice your minions for powerful effects such as power damage, conditions, interrupts and even temporary survivability.

    That's not illusionist. That's minionmancer necromancer game play. It's like they accidentally gave Mesmer the Necromancer class mechanic. I think mesmer, chronomancer and mirage would be a lot more interesting if they had a different main class mechanic. Clones and the current iteration of phantasms are fine. But defeating a mesmer should revolve around how well you focus on the real mesmer and ignore the clones, not having to juggle both being aware of the mesmer while kiting and avoiding the clones to avoid shatters.

    Clones should still exist but they should both do no damage and take no damage. Any time they're struck they'd "Evade" automatically because illusions are classically intangible and interacting with them classically ends with the person simply phasing through them. The current iteration of Phantasms is fine as Phantasms that come out and do psionic damage are also part of the classic illusionist fantasy.

    Then you'd adjust mesmer's damage to compensate for shatters no longer existing. Then whatever class mechanic replaces shatters should probably have Entre Portal as the highest power cooldown. I think fighting a mesmer should be more about how you completely ignore the clones and waste as little time on them. You shouldn't have to worry about them hitting you for chip damage, condis in particular, and having to kite them around to avoid getting obliterated with shatters. And for the mesmer any time a clone eats an attack meant for them should be 100% positive, not an annoyance because you just lost your ammo for your class mechanic.

    @Azaka.8315 said:
    We all know from countless 'nerf' threads that people in general don't like to play against Mesmers and it makes perfect sense because the core design is to make it hard to fight against.
    The problem is that the inherent design of the Mesmer class is flawed. It is very hard to play against if you are a new player and it gets easier and easier the better you get and to balance that it has to be buffed in some other way to make it viable on the highest level which leads to even more problems in the lower levels.
    I think that much is obvious to everyone that ever played any kind of PvP.

    This core design makes Mesmer incredible hard to balance and in addition it leads to a lot of clutter on the battlefield that makes it even hard to watch from an outside perspective.
    So my idea is as follows:
    Mesmer illusions are meant to be in the head of the opponent, so why not make it that only the targeted player can actually see those illusions.

    Illusions are supposed to be visible to everyone and distract and confuse opponents. Classically everyone will see an illusion. It's phantasms that are in the head of the opponent.

    The whole minionmancer problem came to an end with the change to phantasms. I raise one issue to you that might bring you on board with my suggestion.

    Not at all. Mirage with Infinite Horions still feels more like a minion master than an illusionist. Shattering clones at all is still very unillusionist like.

    If you limit the Mesmer illusions to one player as suggested, you maybe could rebalance illusions in a way that would allow you to have even more illusions and not just the three we got now, because the three illusion limit is an attempt to limit clutter and you wouldn't need to worry about that as much if the illusions are only visible to the player targeted.

    Limit clutter by potentially creating limitless clutter for whoever the mesmer targets? Like can you imagine being the necromancer in a PvP game, where you will always be the priority target and you're up against 2 mesmers? The three limit isn't just about limiting clutter but also about performance. Even if you phase clones for everyone except the one victim, everyone is still processing and handling the fact that clones are actual in game entities that take up performance. Like just take WvW for example. Having player models at their lowest helps, yes. But 150 players in a zerg still impact performance because you're still tracking where they are, what they're doing, even if they're culled.

    I went with the explanation ArenaNet gave us about how illusions are meant to manifest in the world, but I'm not sure if there is a waterproof explanation what is going on in the game when a Mesmer uses illsusions from the devs, if you have something like that I would like a link.

    Illusions and phantasms in GW2 can canonically be seeing by people other than their victim. They are visible decoys that actually exist. There have been multiple instances, from Queen Jenna frequently having clones used as decoys to handle assassination attempts like from Scarlet and Commander Kellach. To creating an illusion of Kralkatorrik flying over and branding ebonhawk, seen by both the defenders of ebonhawk as well as the army of branded storming down on them. Phantasms are also canonically visible by people who aren't the mesmer or their intended victim, like Countess Anise when she summons armies of phantasms in the fight against Serentine.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • nthmetal.9652nthmetal.9652 Member ✭✭✭

    Personally I have no issues with the 3 clone limit on the Mesmer in all its representations; I've never known it any other way. What I find somewhat problematic is, that the clones are basically irrelevant. They die easily to area damage, which also makes targetting them a non-issue. Without infinite horizon the clones are too unimportant, so you can as well completely ignore them. With infite horizon, they become more important, which is one of the primary reason IH outshines other traits.

    Increasing the usefulness of clones by increasing the number of clones IMO introduces way too many new problems (with clutter and targetting). Their usefulness should be increased, but it should be done in a different way. IMO making them able to soak up more damage and / or making them more dangerous would help quite a lot. Making them more dangerous would probably equal to making them deal more damage; this in turn would make traits that increase illusion damage more dangerous and worthy taking. Currently such traits are only relevant for phantasms.

    "and then we know that we have looked back through the ivory gates into that world of wonder which was ours before we were wise and unhappy"
    -- H. P. Lovecraft - Celephais

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2019

    @nthmetal.9652 said:
    Personally I have no issues with the 3 clone limit on the Mesmer in all its representations; I've never known it any other way. What I find somewhat problematic is, that the clones are basically irrelevant. They die easily to area damage, which also makes targetting them a non-issue. Without infinite horizon the clones are too unimportant, so you can as well completely ignore them. With infite horizon, they become more important, which is one of the primary reason IH outshines other traits.

    Increasing the usefulness of clones by increasing the number of clones IMO introduces way too many new problems (with clutter and targetting). Their usefulness should be increased, but it should be done in a different way. IMO making them able to soak up more damage and / or making them more dangerous would help quite a lot. Making them more dangerous would probably equal to making them deal more damage; this in turn would make traits that increase illusion damage more dangerous and worthy taking. Currently such traits are only relevant for phantasms.

    Like I said earlier, during the initial crafting of the class clones should have been designed to both do no damage and take no damage, and mesmer should have had a different class mechanic than shatters. Then clones can actually be genuine defense as every attack the enemy does against them has real value, forces cooldowns, buys you time and isn't frustrating for the mesmer as they cleave your ammo for shatters and infinite horizon ambush attacks. This would make sense as in fantasy settings like D&D almost all but the most powerful and rare illusions are completely ethereal. They aren't real and can neither act nor be acted upon.

    Plus it makes more sense and would actually feel less frustrating to fight against mesmer really. Clones literally are just a distraction, and the more you ignore them the better off you'll be. You won't have to worry about Ambush attacks creating a million packets of damage to avoid. You wouldn't have to worry about clones shattering and OHKOing you from stealth because of a lightning fast combat that generates multiple clones and shatters them on top of you from stealth. Then you can just balance mesmer around its actual skills carrying its entire damage output rather than having to try and account for how fast they might be able to make clones and how much damage those clones will do when shattered.

    You could even rework the class mechanic to include Portal right off the bat, and maybe even a skill that creates a stationary clone that doesn't go away or is tied to a target that you can just leave on a point, discouraging players from trying to decap a node you're not at without even needing to be there yourself unless they figure out it is an illusion.

    Take for example:

    Major Illusions, D&D Fifth Edition

    You create the image of an object, a creature, or some other visible phenomenon that is no larger than a 20-foot cube. The image appears at a spot that you can see within range and lasts for the duration. It seems completely real, including sounds, smells, and temperature appropriate to the thing depicted. You can't create sufficient heat or cold to cause damage, a sound loud enough to deal thunder damage or deafen a creature, or a smell that might sicken a creature (like a troglodyte's stench).

    As long as you are within range of the illusion, you can use your action to cause the image to move to any other spot within range. As the image changes location, you can alter its appearance so that its movements appear natural for the image. For example, if you create an image of a creature and move it, you can alter the image so that it appears to be walking. Similarly, you can cause the illusion to make different sounds at different times, even making it carry on a conversation, for example.

    Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it. A creature that uses its action to examine the image can determine that it is an illusion with a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the creature can see through the image, and its other sensory qualities become faint to the creature.

    Phantasms are also a staple of Illusionist spells in other games and those spells function fairly similarly to the current iteration of phantasms. Phantasms exist inside the target's mind and do psionic damage as long as the victim believes they are real and those are typically only visible to the victim.

    Phantasmal Force, D&D Fifth Edition

    You craft an illusion that takes root in the mind of a creature that you can see within range.
    The target must make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, you create a phantasmal object, creature, or other visible phenomenon of your choice that is no larger than a 10-foot cube and that is perceivable only to the target for the duration. This spell has no effect on undead or constructs.

    The phantasm includes sound, temperature, and other stimuli, also evident only to the creature.

    The target can use its action to examine the phantasm with an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If the check succeeds, the target realizes that the phantasm is an illusion, and the spell ends.

    While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real. The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm. For example, a target attempting to walk across a phantasmal bridge that spans a chasm falls once it steps onto the bridge. If the target survives the fall, it still believes that the bridge exists and comes up with some other explanation for its fall—it was pushed, it slipped, or a strong wind might have knocked it off.

    An affected target is so convinced of the phantasm’s reality that it can even take damage from the illusion. A phantasm created to appear as a creature can attack the target. Similarly, a phantasm created to appear as fire, a pool of acid, or lava can burn the target. Each round on your turn, the phantasm can deal 1d6 psychic damage to the target if it is in the phantasm’s area or within 5 feet of the phantasm, provided that the illusion is of a creature or hazard that could logically deal damage, such as by attacking. The target perceives the damage as a type appropriate to the illusion.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the issue is more 2 phantasm spawns, plus block that summons 2 clones. There should be a limit of 1 phantasm and clone per skill (damage to be adjusted accordingly).

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