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Should Arenanet go back to old dungeons to improve them for the new and old player experience?


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No one is saying it would be bad for the game if dungeons were modernized. Rather, people are saying it's better for the game to look elsewhere.


@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I meant before the fractal revamp. regardless of what was better, people did dungeons cuz they thought the rewards were good.Sure, the rewards used to be the best in the game. You seem to keep forgetting that AB multiloot, Istan, Silverwastes and other farms compete for faceroll farming spots, that there are lots and lots of things to do in the game, whereas before HoT, things were much more confined for L80s.

yeah its a good idea for old content to simply get abandoned,It isn't abandoned; it's just not as popular as before. People still do dungeons, just not as many people nor as often.

sounds like resources put to good use.You seem to be ignoring the devs who have said this is, in fact, resources being put to good use. Dungeons were setup in a way that makes them challenging to fix, update, and overhaul. Even if there is value in adjusting dungeons, that same effort is of greater value directed elsewhere.

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Fractals are dungeons, built with better authoring tools that make them easier to update, troubleshoot. The only way that it would be worth it for ANet to return to old dungeons is to throw out the existing ones and replace them, using the new tools. And if they take the time to start from scratch, there's no guarantee that we'd see anything that we like about the originals (we might see new things we like; it just wouldn't be worth it to start over to make near-identical copies).

Developers have written plenty of times about the how & why, including the following:

@"Benjamin Arnold.3457" wrote
It’s not like we want to leave the bugs in, its just that they were built a long time ago with different tools, and fixing them requires a lot of developer time. Time that could be spent on making new fractals and such. Any time I spend fixing dungeon bugs is completely voluntary, and is probably going to be done on weekends.

(
emphasis
in original)
  • Fixing a fractal/raids bug -
    5-30 minutes.
  • Fixing a dungeons bug -
    Literally an entire day.

tl;dr ANet is not going to go back to old dungeons(and if they do, @"Ayrilana.1396" warned you to be careful what you wish for)

Benjamin wrote what you quoeted in August 2017. Less than one month before PoF. It is understandable that at that moment ANet had no resources to assign for dungeons. Then they steadily increased the number of developers but still no resources to dungeons. We know now why. They worked to projects more important than GW2. What I don't understand now is why they don't have resources to assign to the dungeons? How many bugs we can have in dungeons? 100? 200? With 1 team of 10 developers the bugs in dungeons can be fixed in 2-3 weeks. Maybe a month. Maybe Anet still has some other non-public advertised projects?

The comparation between dungeons and fractals is not something to create sympathy: I cannot be sympathetic with someone who literately tell us that: I don't do this because is too hard and it is too much work involved.

This attitude was very well suited for the period when ANet wasted resources working on other projects. That 5-30 minutes (per week I think I did not see bugs solved faster than that) were perfect for creating the illusion of work.

Conclusion: I have absolutely no consideration for someone who has even the ..... lack of tact to tell me that "I don't do this part of my work because it is too hard and takes too much effort. Instead, I will do something requiring 5 minutes of effort."

The bad thing is that this attitude is tolerated by ANet. I started to think that it is because ANet does not care anymore of GW2 and it sees it as a burden, preventing them to work on other more profitable projects.

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@"Cristalyan.5728" said:

Benjamin wrote what you quoeted in August 2017. Less than one month before PoF. It is understandable that at that moment ANet had no resources to assign for dungeons. Then they steadily increased the number of developers but still no resources to dungeons. We know now why. They worked to projects more important than GW2. What I don't understand now is why they don't have resources to assign to the dungeons? How many bugs we can have in dungeons? 100? 200? With 1 team of 10 developers the bugs in dungeons can be fixed in 2-3 weeks. Maybe a month. Maybe Anet still has some other non-public advertised projects?

The comparation between dungeons and fractals is not something to create sympathy: I cannot be sympathetic with someone who literately tell us that: I don't do this because is too hard and it is too much work involved.

This attitude was very well suited for the period when ANet wasted resources working on other projects. That 5-30 minutes (per week I think I did not see bugs solved faster than that) were perfect for creating the illusion of work.

Conclusion: I have absolutely no consideration for someone who has even the ..... lack of tact to tell me that "I don't do this part of my work because it is too hard and takes too much effort. Instead, I will do something requiring 5 minutes of effort."

The bad thing is that this attitude is tolerated by ANet. I started to think that it is because ANet does not care anymore of GW2 and it sees it as a burden, preventing them to work on other more profitable projects.

You have realized that they stopped going for other projects besides GW2, right? I still doubt that even with the main focus on GW2 the company will turn backwards to dungeons. Back in the days they had a dungeon development team and as far as I know almost every dev isn't working any longer for Anet. Most of them were "gone" some months after game release. So, it's more than likely that the devs would have to work through an endlessly annoying mountain of spaghetti code. Instead they are doing the right things: Focus on new stuff.Let's be honest most of the bugs aren't game or rather "dungeon" breaking. Yeah, it can happen that NPCs are stopping and progress isn't working so you have to restart but that's not a common issue. The last times I played a round of dungeons nothing bugged out and we were rushing everything. If you take it calm and make your way through the dungeon step by step as intended the probability of getting an annoying bug is almost 0% or at least infinitesimal small.

I can understand that some players - not a big majority tbh since they were still niche content before HoT - want some "new" dungeons as fractals almost have no lore and if so it's just tedious to wait for NPCs to get their skritt done. On the other hand we have a story part every three months which is like a dungeon but way easier and on the other hand fractals for the more challenging content. I can't really imagine that dungeons like the old ones are fitting in their way of philosophy. Sure, you can add them but at what cost? How many players are replaying them? How to make them attractive while you have very good rewards from fractals, open world farming and decent weekly raid loot. The only way they could make everything in this game enjoyable would be a PvE reward track as we have for WvW & PvP. By the way a thing that was favoured from a lot of players in the past. But even now we don't have that and I doubt it's coming any time soon so the reward balancing would be an additional problem for Anet to consider.I'd rather look forward and try to enjoy new stuff when it's coming.

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@"Cristalyan.5728" said:Benjamin wrote what you quoeted in August 2017.It's been repeated numerous times since fractals were introduced in the game; I just picked one of many quotes because I had it handy.

It is understandable that at that moment ANet had no resources to assign for dungeons.On the contrary, they have the resources; they've decided that working on dungeons is not the best use of their time.

They worked to projects more important than GW2.If not working on the unnamed and now-canceled projects, those devs would not have been working at ANet at all; they wouldn't have been allocated to have 30% more staff on just GW2.

What I don't understand now is why they don't have resources to assign to the dungeons?They are choosing not to.

How many bugs we can have in dungeons? 100? 200? With 1 team of 10 developers the bugs in dungeons can be fixed in 2-3 weeks. Maybe a month.Let's say it's 200 bugs we really want addressed. Using the naive assumption that each takes the same to fix would be... 200 staff days of time. 10 developers would need 20 days, i.e. under a month.However, in that same amount of time, those same devs could fix 2000 bugs, in fractals, in new maps, anywhere. And there are always things to fix.

Maybe Anet still has some other non-public advertised projects?Irrelevant. If there are staff not working on GW2, then canceling such a project won't mean they become available to GW2.

The comparation between dungeons and fractals is not something to create sympathy: I cannot be sympathetic with someone who literately tell us that: I don't do this because is too hard and it is too much work involved.Good thing no one is saying that.

Conclusion: I have absolutely no consideration for someone who has even the ..... lack of tact to tell me that "I don't do this part of my work because it is too hard and takes too much effort. Instead, I will do something requiring 5 minutes of effort."

In fact, ANet Ben is extremely hard working. He went out of his way to tackle bugs that have plagued us in areas unrelated to his current duties, simply because he couldn't stand to see them. This is not someone who shies away from things that are "too much work" or "too hard."The point he is making is that he can fix 8 fractal bugs in the same time he fixes just one dungeon bug (all else being equal, which, of course, they aren't really). So it's better for the game to work on fractal issues; it has absolutely no impact on his workload.

I started to think that it is because ANet does not care anymore of GW2 and it sees it as a burden, preventing them to work on other more profitable projects.They only have the one project; the devs working on GW2 even before the layoffs only worked on the one project.

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@"Vinceman.4572" said:

You have realized that they stopped going for other projects besides GW2, right? I still doubt that even with the main focus on GW2 the company will turn backwards to dungeons. Back in the days they had a dungeon development team and as far as I know almost every dev isn't working any longer for Anet. Most of them were "gone" some months after game release. So, it's more than likely that the devs would have to work through an endlessly annoying mountain of spaghetti code. Instead they are doing the right things: Focus on new stuff.

This is what they say. I heard so many "wrong statements" (to not use a much uglier word) from ANet in the past that I have no confidence anymore in what they states. For example - they focus on the game. The first thing I can think is that as a result of this focus the last LS episode is delayed with almost 2 months from the initial promisse (2 months cadence). That means focus on content? It seems more than "it is too hard, let's take a break, we already worked 30 minutes today".

Let's be honest most of the bugs aren't game or rather "dungeon" breaking. Yeah, it can happen that NPCs are stopping and progress isn't working so you have to restart but that's not a common issue. The last times I played a round of dungeons nothing bugged out and we were rushing everything. If you take it calm and make your way through the dungeon step by step as intended the probability of getting an annoying bug is almost 0% or at least infinitesimal small.

I completely agree with you here =). Not the bugs are the reason the dungeons are not played today as much as in the past. Maybe the rewards? Something to atract players again into dungeons? ANet stated the intention to de-incentivize the dungeons and to make them less attractive for players. It worked perfectly (as all the nerfs they performed). But with so many players asking for a resurrection of the dungeons, it is not the time to change something? Maybe the rewards? This is not something as demanding as repairing tons of old code. This is something they can do in few days, even in 30 minutes per day.

I can understand that players want "new" dungeon as fractals almost have no lore and if so it's just tedious to wait for NPCs to get their skritt done. On the other hand we have a story part every three months which is like a dungeon but way easier and on the other hand fractals for the more challenging content. I can't really imagine that dungeons like the old ones are fitting in their way of philosophy. Sure, you can add them but at what cost? How many players are replaying them? How to make them attractive while you have very good rewards from fractals, open world farming and decent weekly raid loot. The only way they could make everything in this game enjoyable would be a PvE reward track as we have for WvW & PvP. By the way a thing that was favoured from a lot of players in the past. But even now we don't have that and I doubt it's coming any time soon so the reward balancing would be an additional problem for Anet to consider.I'd rather look forward and try to enjoy new stuff when it's coming.

Well, the dungeons were played by many. The raid community is not as large as the former dungeon community. Also, the fractals - HM. I don't know how large is the community of the players doing fractals daily. And for good rewards you need the CM. Again, I don't know how large is the fraction of the players doing daily CM.

BTW - the open world farming has been nerfed. Directly - by reducing the rewards, and indirectly by making MF almost useless.

I will try to answer your question How many players are replaying them (the dungeons) with a hypothetical example. Imagine the rewards from fractals reduced to almost nothing. Add to this a statement that the fractals have no more support from the Company developers. And add to this almost 4 years of nothing new added.

Then ask yourself: How many players are replaying them - but this time pointing to fractals.

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I like old style 'crawlers' dungeons in this game but I guess I'm too old now.What they could do is chop of explorable mods and add something modern?Something that new, that doesn't make new player pill their hairs off when attempting to clear those on low level.Maybe then leveling in game won't be so boring.

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@"Cristalyan.5728" said:This is what they say. I heard so many "wrong statements" (to not use a much uglier word) from ANet in the past that I have no confidence anymore in what they states. For example - they focus on the game. The first thing I can think is that as a result of this focus the last LS episode is delayed with almost 2 months from the initial promisse (2 months cadence). That means focus on content? It seems more than "it is too hard, let's take a break, we already worked 30 minutes today".

I've been saying this a lot in the past but you know we can't change anything. It's their philosophy, it's their development speed and their game. Also, people favouring challenging content like raids, fractals and even dungeons are the tiny minority of this game. We have to consider and respect that.Tyi the cadence was 2-3 months and more 3 months than 2, so they just delayed the next one for 4 more weeks. I think that is totally acceptable as long as they don't hand out buggy stuff or thins like Domain of Kourna.

I completely agree with you here =). Not the bugs are the reason the dungeons are not played today as much as in the past. Maybe the rewards? Something to atract players again into dungeons? ANet stated the intention to de-incentivize the dungeons and to make them less attractive for players. It worked perfectly (as all the nerfs they performed). But with so many players asking for a resurrection of the dungeons, it is not the time to change something? Maybe the rewards? This is not something as demanding as repairing tons of old code. This is something they can do in few days, even in 30 minutes per day.

It was said: The rewards are fine. You would have to increase them incredibly to bring people into them again and that would harm every other content. It's not the rewards dungeons are abandoned. It's boredom. Veterans like me farmed them daily in the past - every - fricking - day. From time to time I head into them again because friends are asking or to help beginners or just because I'm bored but in no way I would like to have them as a more regular thing. They are fine like they are now.

Well, the dungeons were played by many. The raid community is not as large as the former dungeon community. Also, the fractals - HM. I don't know how large is the community of the players doing fractals daily. And for good rewards you need the CM. Again, I don't know how large is the fraction of the players doing daily CM.

Dungeons weren't played by many. A bit more than people do fractals today maybe but that was only because it was the only instanced content, a little bit harder than open world but easier than fracs, were rewarding and yeah the only instanced thing you could do in this game besides fractals. Have a look into the T4 tab over the day it's filled and you'll always find a group if you want. Raiding is also alive.And that we had a loss of players in total is the usual thing for an MMO which is getting older and older while new stuff left and right is flooding the market.

BTW - the open world farming has been nerfed. Directly - by reducing the rewards, and indirectly by making MF almost useless.

It's still better than running fracs or raids.

I will try to answer your question How many players are replaying them (the dungeons) with a hypothetical example. Imagine the rewards from fractals reduced to almost nothing. Add to this a statement that the fractals have no more support from the Company developers. And add to this almost 4 years of nothing new added.

Then ask yourself: How many players are replaying them - but this time pointing to fractals.

Of course, every content needs their rewards but it's just plain wrong that dungeons are not rewarding. They are old and outdated. That's a key point. Yes, everybody would run them if you get 10g per path but that would be the same for PvP and WvW. Hand out a 10g per PvP game or capture a tower/fortress in WvW everybody would go there for farming.

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If ANet returns to dungeons I would like to see:

  • Dungeons to be easy enough that a group of 5 brand new players that is very undergeared can complete the dungeon with no difficulty.
  • A non-80 gear version of the exotic armor/weapon that players can buy.
  • A non-newb version which is just the dungeon is currently.
  • 2 more dungeons for level 10 and level 20. These two dungeons are there to teach players basic tutorials such as breakbars and dodging stuff and to give dungeons for level 10 and level 20.

The purpose is that dungeons be repurposed into a leveling group content.

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@"runeblade.7514" said:If ANet returns to dungeons I would like to see:

  • Dungeons to be easy enough that a group of 5 brand new players that is very undergeared can complete the dungeon with no difficulty.
  • A non-80 gear version of the exotic armor/weapon that players can buy.
  • A non-newb version which is just the dungeon is currently.
  • 2 more dungeons for level 10 and level 20. These two dungeons are there to teach players basic tutorials such as breakbars and dodging stuff and to give dungeons for level 10 and level 20.

The purpose is that dungeons be repurposed into a leveling group content.

Every dungeon now have that tho all but the lvl10 and 20 dungeons ofcourse. (oh been so long so forgot they dident sell weapons for lowbies)

The armor level 35,45,55,65,75 and even 80 got a rare set for explorable dungeon currency level and all of them got level 80 exotic armor/weapons just that newbies can have a harder time to find the merchant then in the old days where we had 8 of them right were you entered lions arch.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dungeon_Merchant5 none 80 can clear the dungeons at level it will be hard ofcourse.The first statment is basicly asking them to do personal story but as 5 man recommended why not just group up for your story steps and treat all of them as dungeons with no difficulty?

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@Linken.6345 said:The armor level 35,45,55,65,75 and even 80 got a rare set for explorable dungeon currency level and all of them got level 80 exotic armor/weapons just that newbies can have a harder time to find the merchant then in the old days where we had 8 of them right were you entered lions arch.The skins have the same skin as common loot drops.

I am asking for those weapons and armor use the same skin as the level 80.

The first statment is basicly asking them to do personal story but as 5 man recommended why not just group up for your story steps and treat all of them as dungeons with no difficulty?

Personal Story is not repeatable.

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@runeblade.7514 said:

@Linken.6345 said:The armor level 35,45,55,65,75 and even 80 got a rare set for explorable dungeon currency level and all of them got level 80 exotic armor/weapons just that newbies can have a harder time to find the merchant then in the old days where we had 8 of them right were you entered lions arch.The skins have the same skin as common loot drops.

I am asking for those weapons and armor use the same skin as the level 80.

The first statment is basicly asking them to do personal story but as 5 man recommended why not just group up for your story steps and treat all of them as dungeons with no difficulty?

Personal Story is not repeatable.

Buying armor and weapons with dungeon currency at a level below 80 would be a waste since players would gain levels so quickly from dungeons or just in general.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:Buying armor and weapons with dungeon currency at a level below 80 would be a waste since players would gain levels so quickly from dungeons or just in general.

On the otherhand, my leveling experience had been looking like the same ugly armor from 1-79 because loot drops aren't varied. This would help me look different as I level up.

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Then buy new armor with skins that you’d enjoy. It doesn’t need to be the same level as you since you can use the wardrobe to put them on your current armor.

In any case, it costs something like 1600 dungeon currency for an armor set. I can’t really remember although 1280 is sounding familiar too. Anyway, is spending that much on armor only for it to soon become obsolete worth it? Plus, exotic armor only starts at level 60 or so.

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@kasoki.5180 said:Out of curiosity. Why are some people against challange mode. Something completely facultative.

Why are some people against something that has no impact on them but might make game enjoyable for others?

Because of what they could have done in its place. Look at those two cancelled side projects where those entire teams could have instead focused on adding more content to the game.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:Then buy new armor with skins that you’d enjoy. It doesn’t need to be the same level as you since you can use the wardrobe to put them on your current armor.

In any case, it costs something like 1600 dungeon currency for an armor set. I can’t really remember although 1280 is sounding familiar too. Anyway, is spending that much on armor only for it to soon become obsolete worth it? Plus, exotic armor only starts at level 60 or so.

Its 210 Dungeon currency for the non-80 set.

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@runeblade.7514 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Then buy new armor with skins that you’d enjoy. It doesn’t need to be the same level as you since you can use the wardrobe to put them on your current armor.

In any case, it costs something like 1600 dungeon currency for an armor set. I can’t really remember although 1280 is sounding familiar too. Anyway, is spending that much on armor only for it to soon become obsolete worth it? Plus, exotic armor only starts at level 60 or so.

Its 210 Dungeon currency for the non-80 set.

Yes but you stated above that you wanted those lower level gear to have the same skins as the level 80 set. Either you pay the level 80 cost for the skins or you don’t get them.

Your post about wanting the sub-80 sets to share the same skin as the level 80 set:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Linken.6345 said:The armor level 35,45,55,65,75 and even 80 got a rare set for explorable dungeon currency level and all of them got level 80 exotic armor/weapons just that newbies can have a harder time to find the merchant then in the old days where we had 8 of them right were you entered lions arch.The skins have the same skin as common loot drops.

I am asking for those weapons and armor use the same skin as the level 80.

Which came about from this post:

@runeblade.7514 said:If ANet returns to dungeons I would like to see:

  • Dungeons to be easy enough that a group of 5 brand new players that is very undergeared can complete the dungeon with no difficulty.
  • A non-80 gear version of the exotic armor/weapon that players can buy.
  • A non-newb version which is just the dungeon is currently.
  • 2 more dungeons for level 10 and level 20. These two dungeons are there to teach players basic tutorials such as breakbars and dodging stuff and to give dungeons for level 10 and level 20.

The purpose is that dungeons be repurposed into a leveling group content.

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Yes but you stated above that you wanted those lower level gear to have the same skins as the level 80 set. Either you pay the level 80 cost for the skins or you don’t get them.

I would rather ANet could also make these skins not be able to be stored in the wardrobe to justify the lower cost. Meaning, you have to buy the exotic skins if you want to transmute it in your armor.

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I would rather see new 3 or 5 man dungeons with easy and hard modes that are tied to story along side raids or instead of them ( let's be honest, waiting 9 months for 2-3 bosses is a joke ). And instead of wasting time and money on making new map each episode I would rather see some repeatable content. Leave current dungeons as they are. Adjusting them to current state of the game is not worth the effort. Assuming they are capable of recreating them, since most of the people who made them in wonderful archaic game engine are long gone.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"kasoki.5180" said:Out of curiosity. Why are some people against challange mode. Something completely facultative.

Why are some people against something that has no impact on them but might make game enjoyable for others?

Because of what they could have done in its place. Look at those two cancelled side projects where those entire teams could have instead focused on adding more content to the game.

But updated/new dungeon is that "what they could've done". Dungeones are the backbone of PvE in any MMO game. Saying that they should be doing something else instead of them makes no sense if they are broken/abandoned. Other games have no problems doing both dungeons and these hypothetical other things. This game is the odd one out.

Dungeons are the content they could've been doing and the game would be better off in the long run.

Also, these teams were doing on other non-GW2 projects. Those two teams could've contributed to anything GW2 related, and that also includes dungeons

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@runeblade.7514 said:

Yes but you stated above that you wanted those lower level gear to have the same skins as the level 80 set. Either you pay the level 80 cost for the skins or you don’t get them.

I would rather ANet could also make these skins not be able to be stored in the wardrobe to justify the lower cost. Meaning, you have to buy the exotic skins if you want to transmute it in your armor.

Which will never happen.

@kasoki.5180 said:

@kasoki.5180 said:Out of curiosity. Why are some people against challange mode. Something completely facultative.

Why are some people against something that has no impact on them but might make game enjoyable for others?

Because of what they could have done in its place. Look at those two cancelled side projects where those entire teams could have instead focused on adding more content to the game.

But updated/new dungeon is that "what they could've done". Dungeones are the backbone of PvE in any MMO game. Saying that they should be doing something else instead of them makes no sense if they are broken/abandoned. Other games have no problems doing both dungeons and these hypothetical other things. This game is the odd one out.

Dungeons are the content they could've been doing and the game would be better off in the long run.

Also, these teams were doing on other non-GW2 projects. Those two teams could've contributed to anything GW2 related, and that also includes dungeons

There are fractals which take that role.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

Yes but you stated above that you wanted those lower level gear to have the same skins as the level 80 set. Either you pay the level 80 cost for the skins or you don’t get them.

I would rather ANet could also make these skins not be able to be stored in the wardrobe to justify the lower cost. Meaning, you have to buy the exotic skins if you want to transmute it in your armor.

Which will never happen.

@kasoki.5180 said:Out of curiosity. Why are some people against challange mode. Something completely facultative.

Why are some people against something that has no impact on them but might make game enjoyable for others?

Because of what they could have done in its place. Look at those two cancelled side projects where those entire teams could have instead focused on adding more content to the game.

But updated/new dungeon is that "what they could've done". Dungeones are the backbone of PvE in any MMO game. Saying that they should be doing something else instead of them makes no sense if they are broken/abandoned. Other games have no problems doing both dungeons and these hypothetical other things. This game is the odd one out.

Dungeons are the content they could've been doing and the game would be better off in the long run.

Also, these teams were doing on other non-GW2 projects. Those two teams could've contributed to anything GW2 related, and that also includes dungeons

There are fractals which take that role.

As far as I understand fractals tier1 can be done on lv 70+. It's way too long for leveling to get into instanced content.Also this is the only game where trash mobs in leveling dungeons are elits.

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@"phs.6089" said:Also this is the only game whereIt's the only game for a lot of things, including...

  • Time spent to get to max level (short, compared to other games)
  • Time spent getting max level gear (exotic: instant, ascended: first set is long)
  • Time spent regaining max level after expansion (0)
  • Time spent regaining max gear after expansion (0) (caveat: doesn't mean it's optimum, but zerker's gear has survived 6+ years without a change)
  • Time required in "dungeons" of any sort to reach max level or get max gear: 0

The point being: it doesn't make sense to pull one comparison from other games and ignore the context. Yes, it's true that fractals aren't suitable for L30 and it's also true that it doesn't take that much longer to get to L70. The game wasn't designed for dungeons to be a gateway to better gear; it was designed so that dungeons (of both sorts) was something optional that folks could do.

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My 2c as a real new player would be:

I reckon, unless ANet is going to focus a tonne of development in the PvE instanced systems to make it more integrated into leveling, then things should be left as they are. I think we have a pretty good amount of things to do that means more to your game/character/leveling experience than most games. And, we also have an incentive to hit L30 to get into our 1st dungeon.

Reason I say that is because, GW2 to me is quite different to games like WoW, etc... Shouldn't try fitting it into it's mould (yes, ex wow player here).

And as far as seeing the dungeons... Week before last, when I hit L30 and did that first dungeon (I been 80 for a bit more than a week now)... I was excited that I could go and find the waypoint to it... and being taught how to queue by someone random (because I didn't know anything then, like Jon Snow)... and then getting through it. It was a positive experience for me, and thus far, it is also a positive experience for a couple of folks who are also new!

I don't see anything wrong with what we have at the moment - I could be wrong in a few years time!

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