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why do you lose more rating the worse your teammates are (the lower elo they are)


incisorr.9502

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@"bluri.2653" said:

"all you have to do is reduce the rating a high elo person loses if he has bad teammates, IT'S THAT SIMPLE!"

You do know that then I'd simply just queue offpeak hours where the average will be even bigger and since I'm supposed to lose less, I will eventually gain and gain and gain.

No you guys have no idea what you are on about

I don't think you actually know how bad low elo games are. Lol. If you think that you're going to get 80% win rate with only bad players on your team then maybe you deserve your rating , for which you'll have to grind more hours on average than usual.

The thing is, if this suggestion is "implemented" then there won't be off-hours as much as there are now. People will play the game more. I'm usually awake at night but i don't play gw2 because i'd gain 6 and lose 20 and its not possible to have 80% win rate in this game, i simply don't think you've seen lower elo games. You can end 20-0 after securing/winning multiple 1v2 nodes/fights and still lose. I have. Over a year ago or so when i was playing entirely at night i couldn't get even plat 2 and when i stopped playing at night i started getting legendary

so the problem with your post is that you think that getting high win rate in games with bad people is easy but it is not, and if you DO manage to get high win rate vs bad people then you should be rewarded for it somehow. I don't see anything wrong with someone who plays for 4 hours in "off-hours" to gain some rating. It's not like the gain will be huge anyway and the game will be more alive. You'll have more incentive to play in off hours and so will your enemies and therefore the 'off-hours' will be much less and when you're trying to farm noobs in 4 am there might be other higher elo people who want to do the same or to stop you and then you'll meet (and most likely be placed against each other, with 4 bad teammates) and it'll be a clown fiesta but at least the game won't punish you by making you lose 20 rating so the game can be played and the price you'll have to pay for getting unlucky will be much smaller and bearable

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@"Mbelch.9028" said:"Horrible patch done by horrible people, believe me, believe me."

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:This can all be traced back to the COMPLETELY UNDESERVED nerfs of OP's main, the WORST, CYBERBULLIED CLASS. Unfortunate.

Also this.

But really. The game is the same as it was both population wise and quality of play as it was last patch and the patch before it. Matchmaking isn't perfect, the rating system isn't perfect, but Ranked PvP isn't really that indicative of skill anyways, so take it like the meme it can be and enjoy it, or don't play it if you don't enjoy it.

We sure about that? Just yesterday I checked the leaderboard and saw that the top 250 included a significant portion of Gold 3. I've never seen that before outside of like the very first day of the season.

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@incisorr.9502 said:

@"bluri.2653" said:

"all you have to do is reduce the rating a high elo person loses if he has bad teammates, IT'S THAT SIMPLE!"

You do know that then I'd simply just queue offpeak hours where the average will be even bigger and since I'm supposed to lose less, I will eventually gain and gain and gain.

No you guys have no idea what you are on about

so the problem with your post is that you think that getting high win rate in games with bad people is easy but it is not

It's because low rated players are completely random. In high rated matches or let's even use the final round of an AT as example, most if not all of the players understand the full meta dynamic, in terms of what classes are capable of and what they are not, when every player is playing those classes at a nearly fully optimized level. So you can make judgements like: "I can stay or leave and I know with a 95% accuracy, what will likely happen when I stay or leave." or "I know where the stealthed enemy is going because a player at his level has only one good option right now and I know what it is." However, in low rated matches, players are completely random. There are situations like this happening:

  • You're defending a side node against a Herald. One of your teammates who is a Condi Mirage, shows up to + you even though you were already winning the 1v1 and holding the node your color. The Herald is already at bellow 50% health, so you leave to quickly rotate where you are needed, feeling confident that the Condi Mirage will be able to easily defend your node and finish off the Herald. When you arrive at the mid node, you look at the mini map and notice that the Condi Mirage who was at full resource when you left, has somehow lost the node and died.
  • You're 1v2ing on a side node at Legacy and holding the node your color. The mid node is also your color and you have a teammate who is a Power Longbow Ranger who is standing on the hill watching the mid node. An enemy Necromancer waddles onto the mid node to decap it. For some reason, the Power Longbow Ranger decides to come and help you, instead of kill the Necromancer who is capping mid.
  • You're in a 2v2 at mid in Temple. The game timer is at something like 9:20. The person who is helping support you in the 2v2 suddenly leaves the mid node and runs all the way to Tranquility, because he figured it would be a good idea to get there early.

^ All of this kind of stuff results in matches that are ridiculously difficult to carry, because you cannot form proper rotational judgments around a team that takes random actions the entire match. You have no idea what they are going to do next. Winning these kinds of matches begins to feel a lot less about how hard you can carry, and a lot more about if your PUGs will happen to land reasonable decisions or not, because we all know that a single stupid decision can throw a game instantly.

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@bluri.2653 said:

@"incisorr.9502" said:all you have to do is reduce the rating a high elo person loses if he has bad teammates, IT'S THAT SIMPLE!

^ He's right though, and here is why:
  • Say you're 1700 in a match and you get paired with 1525 1525 1525 1525 vs. 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 = an even 1600 vs. 1600 avg.
  • It looks like the algorithm is doing a perfect job on paper mathematically. In reality this is garbage match making because Conquest is played on 3 nodes and the 1700 who is being expected to carry his weight for his team within the algorithm, can only be on 1 node at any given time. This means that wherever the 1700 is at holding his node and winning, his 1525 teammates are getting crunched by the 1600 opponents and losing the other 2 nodes. It only takes holding 2 nodes to win a Conquest game and a Conquest game cannot be won by only holding 1 node.
  • Essentially, the match maker is expecting the 1700 to 1v2 the entire game and successfully WIN those 1v2s and never disengage, to even realistically grant his team a chance to win in 4v3 on the other 2 nodes. That's a lot of weight to carry when you're talking 1700 vs 1600 1600. And even if he does successfully do this, at the best his team is 1525 1525 vs 1600 on one node, and 1525 1525 vs. 1600 1600 on the other.
  • Here is where it gets interesting. Even if the 1700 can actually successfully 1v2 and win the entire game while holding some node his color, that still is not enough to ensure a victory for his team, despite his hard carry performance. The reason is because if a 1700 can 1v2 1600 1600 and win all game, it is also possible that a 1600 could 1v2 1525 1525 and win all game as well. So even if the 1700 1v2s and wins all game, it is still equal win/lose opportunity on the other two nodes for both sides of the team, despite the 1700's team having a 4v3 advantage. If one of the 1600s can at least hold 1v2 vs. 1525 1525 while his other 1600 1600 wins vs. 1525 1525, it'll be a no-win situation for the 1700, despite his hard carry performance. For the system to make a match and expect the 1700 to 1v3 1600s to ENSURE his victory, that is ridiculous and in no way realistic with how the game of Conquest actually works in-game.
  • So what we are looking at here, when the match maker digs too far down into divisions to make a match for high rated players, are virtually impossible to carry matches for the high rated player, despite the numbers on paper making it look like the algorithm is working perfectly. The algorithm is allocating too much weight onto the shoulders of the high rated player, that due to the nature of how Conquest is played and game engine limitations, isn't realistically possible to carry. This is because he can only be on one node at a given time, he only has so much DPS, only so much sustain, and only so much mobility.

Incisorr's idea is in the right direction. It might also be time to consider elongating the algorithm's search for players.

"all you have to do is reduce the rating a high elo person loses if he has bad teammates, IT'S THAT SIMPLE!"

You do know that then I'd simply just queue offpeak hours where the average will be even bigger and since I'm supposed to lose less, I will eventually gain and gain and gain.

No you guys have no idea what you are on about

If you think you can solo queue off hours with horrible teammates and have a decent enough winrate to make "tons" of rank points from your +4~5 points per win, go for it. You deserve this "tons" of ranking points you'll make. But I've seem some of your streams, and I'm pretty sure even you can't carry unwinnable matches that hard to make the effort worthy.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Mbelch.9028" said:"Horrible patch done by horrible people, believe me, believe me."

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:This can all be traced back to the COMPLETELY UNDESERVED nerfs of OP's main, the WORST, CYBERBULLIED CLASS. Unfortunate.

Also this.

But really. The game is the same as it was both population wise and quality of play as it was last patch and the patch before it. Matchmaking isn't perfect, the rating system isn't perfect, but Ranked PvP isn't really that indicative of skill anyways, so take it like the meme it can be and enjoy it, or don't play it if you don't enjoy it.

We sure about that? Just yesterday I checked the leaderboard and saw that the top 250 included a significant portion of Gold 3. I've never seen that before outside of like the very first day of the season.

Am I sure about the playing population? Yes. Only anet can confirm if I'm correct or incorrect. Do I think people are spamming ranked like they used to? No. That might be the answer of the question, but who knows.

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From the perspective of the gold player, I don't want to be stuck in matches with 1600+ players. But this issue is their own doing. Top players duck other top players and play alts to protect their rating. If alt accounts were forced to share rating, and the matchmaker didn't allow matches with huge mmr Delta's on the same team this problem would solve itself.

If they are still having issues getting enough matches, let automated tournament results count towards their rating.

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I like to add to the suggestion that after reaching certain rating , lets say 1699 your rating gain loss is capped around low numbers 3 to 8, so the best of the best don't get some kind of ridiculous rating that they can't match at all ( remember that as a case in the early days of League of Legends), also if you win vs low rating players you get the tremendous amount of 1 and if you lose you get -3 , it is the same % as now but removes the yo yo effect where people can be knocked off the board for one game while being in the 50 to 100 position.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@incisorr.9502 said:all you have to do is reduce the rating a high elo person loses if he has bad teammates, IT'S THAT SIMPLE!

^ He's right though, and here is why:
  • Say you're 1700 in a match and you get paired with 1525 1525 1525 1525 vs. 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 = an even 1600 vs. 1600 avg.
  • It looks like the algorithm is doing a perfect job on paper mathematically. In reality this is garbage match making because Conquest is played on 3 nodes and the 1700 who is being expected to carry his weight for his team within the algorithm, can only be on 1 node at any given time. This means that wherever the 1700 is at holding his node and winning, his 1525 teammates are getting crunched by the 1600 opponents and losing the other 2 nodes. It only takes holding 2 nodes to win a Conquest game and a Conquest game cannot be won by only holding 1 node.
  • Essentially, the match maker is expecting the 1700 to 1v2 the entire game and successfully WIN those 1v2s and never disengage, to even realistically grant his team a chance to win in 4v3 on the other 2 nodes. That's a lot of weight to carry when you're talking 1700 vs 1600 1600. And even if he does successfully do this, at the best his team is 1525 1525 vs 1600 on one node, and 1525 1525 vs. 1600 1600 on the other.
  • Here is where it gets interesting. Even if the 1700 can actually successfully 1v2 and win the entire game while holding some node his color, that still is not enough to ensure a victory for his team, despite his hard carry performance. The reason is because if a 1700 can 1v2 1600 1600 and win all game, it is also possible that a 1600 could 1v2 1525 1525 and win all game as well. So even if the 1700 1v2s and wins all game, it is still equal win/lose opportunity on the other two nodes for both sides of the team, despite the 1700's team having a 4v3 advantage. If one of the 1600s can at least hold 1v2 vs. 1525 1525 while his other 1600 1600 wins vs. 1525 1525, it'll be a no-win situation for the 1700, despite his hard carry performance. For the system to make a match and expect the 1700 to 1v3 1600s to ENSURE his victory, that is ridiculous and in no way realistic with how the game of Conquest actually works in-game.
  • So what we are looking at here, when the match maker digs too far down into divisions to make a match for high rated players, are virtually impossible to carry matches for the high rated player, despite the numbers on paper making it look like the algorithm is working perfectly. The algorithm is allocating too much weight onto the shoulders of the high rated player, that due to the nature of how Conquest is played and game engine limitations, isn't realistically possible to carry. This is because he can only be on one node at a given time, he only has so much DPS, only so much sustain, and only so much mobility.

Incisorr's idea is in the right direction. It might also be time to consider elongating the algorithm's search for players.

So...basically good players get f-ed by the system? Sounds about right!

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@Safandula.8723 said:

@incisorr.9502 said:so it constantly matches you with people who are 150+ and lower elo than you
which is the game's failure and arena net's matchmaking failure
and not your personal failure.Actually its failure of low player base. U don't want to be matched with lower rated ppl, than play in prime times. If it doesn't help u cuz ur 1800 and ur matched with 1500-1600, than as I told, it's about player base. Script that would match only ppl with similar rating, would cause way longer matching time, which would touch everyone badly.Tldr find game with more ppl

Nonsense. Player base is just fine. Every day, I see Heart of the Mists PACKED. The SYSTEM is the problem. We have people playing, they're just not getting matched up like they're supposed to.

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@JTGuevara.9018 said:

@incisorr.9502 said:so it constantly matches you with people who are 150+ and lower elo than you
which is the game's failure and arena net's matchmaking failure
and not your personal failure.Actually its failure of low player base. U don't want to be matched with lower rated ppl, than play in prime times. If it doesn't help u cuz ur 1800 and ur matched with 1500-1600, than as I told, it's about player base. Script that would match only ppl with similar rating, would cause way longer matching time, which would touch everyone badly.Tldr find game with more ppl

Nonsense. Player base is just fine. Every day, I see Heart of the Mists PACKED. The SYSTEM is the problem. We have people playing, they're just not getting matched up like they're supposed to.

And most of them are playing unranked. There is a lot of ppl playing at silver and gold but there is so few players from legendary that they are alway matched with platinums. And similar with platinums, they are not always matched with only plants but also with legends and golds

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