Discussion about the upcoming change to Physical Supremacy

[Safandula.8723]

only downside of it, is d/p dd going out of roaming position in spvp. in wvw the range change will hurt a bit, but w/e. i like staff so im pretty excited about it. s/d everywhere now :(

[MithranArkanere.8957]

@Sniper.5961 said:[...]As i mentioned you have the tradeoff by not being able to take another traitline like acrobatics instead of DD. Infact the tradeoff of taking DD over acro is so big, that the meta for the thief is to play core s/d, no tradeoff needed here its already balanced d/p DD is absolutely balanced and a lot of people would even say sub par to s/d core. The only tradeoff that would be justifyable would be if you made steal unblockable for a NEW pointholder/duelist type of build.

That is not a profession mechanic trade-off. All elite specializations have the 2-core-trait tradeoff, and it's not enough to make the profession feel fundamentally different if it doesn't come with a loss or replacement in the profession mechanic (F1...F5)Traits may change skills and stats enough to be able to do some things you can't do without the 3 core, but it's not a fundamental difference. It's being able to dodge more, or spam an initiative skill more, or use a skill more often, or stay in stealth longer, and combinations of things done better or a bit different, but it's still all additions.

While you can't do combinations that require 3 core specializations, it isn't a binary change like when you can no longer can use a core shroud skill, or when holosmith can no longer use elite toolbelt skills.

Take Berserker. Before the upcoming change, you could do most things core warrior could do. Some better, some worse. But now, you will actually lose the core bursts, and have them replaced with the primal bursts.But a trade-off doesn't have to be that radical to make the profession feel different. Spellbreaker keeps bursts similar to core bursts, but they are limited to level 1, and they also lose 1 bar of adrenaline. That's still fundamentally different, enough to make the profession feel different.

By having unique features for core that elites won't get, you can balance better the game, since there will be factors that divide core and elites. Without such a separation, all the changes you do to all of core will be inherited by the elite.For example, if scrapper got a different F5 skill, like an offensive 'action gyro' skill to complement their 'function gyro', then when core engineer feels underwhelming, it could get extra power by improving the F5 toolbelt skills that would be unique to it, but right now any change you do to core engineer will be inherited by scrapper in their skills and traits. Scrapper may only be able to bring 2 of those trait lines, but they can bring any of the 5 core trait lines.

What I'm saying here is not to keep the change in the update preview, but Daredevil and all other elite specs that do not have a profession mechanic trade-off should get one so both gameplay with them is different enough, so there's things the elite profession mechanics can't do that the core version can.

TL;DR: Unique profession mechanics trade-offs ensure you have a leg to stand on to make changes that affect core without affecting elite specializations. And so all elite specializations should have them.

[Sniper.5961]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@"Sniper.5961" said:[...]As i mentioned you have the tradeoff by not being able to take another traitline like acrobatics instead of DD. Infact the tradeoff of taking DD over acro is so big, that the meta for the thief is to play core s/d, no tradeoff needed here its already balanced d/p DD is absolutely balanced and a lot of people would even say sub par to s/d core. The only tradeoff that would be justifyable would be if you made steal unblockable for a NEW pointholder/duelist type of build.

That is

not

a

profession mechanic

trade-off. All elite specializations have the 2-core-trait tradeoff, and it's not enough to make the profession feel fundamentally different if it doesn't come with a loss or replacement in the profession mechanic (F1...F5)Traits may change skills and stats enough to be able to do some things you can't do without the 3 core, but it's not a

fundamental

difference. It's being able to dodge more, or spam an initiative skill more, or use a skill more often, or stay in stealth longer, and combinations of things done better or a bit different, but it's still all additions.

While you can't do combinations that require 3 core specializations, it isn't a binary change like when you can no longer can use a core shroud skill, or when holosmith can no longer use elite toolbelt skills.

Take Berserker. Before the upcoming change, you could do most things core warrior could do. Some better, some worse. But now, you will actually lose the core bursts, and have them replaced with the primal bursts.But a trade-off doesn't have to be that radical to make the profession feel different. Spellbreaker keeps bursts similar to core bursts, but they are limited to level 1, and they also lose 1 bar of adrenaline. That's still fundamentally different, enough to make the profession feel different.

By having unique features for core that elites won't get, you can balance better the game, since there will be factors that divide core and elites. Without such a separation, all the changes you do to all of core will be inherited by the elite.For example, if scrapper got a different F5 skill, like an offensive 'action gyro' skill to complement their 'function gyro', then when core engineer feels underwhelming, it could get extra power by improving the F5 toolbelt skills that would be unique to it, but right now any change you do to core engineer will be inherited by scrapper in their skills and traits. Scrapper may only be able to bring 2 of those trait lines, but they can bring any of the 5 core trait lines.

What I'm saying here is not to keep the change in the update preview, but Daredevil and all other elite specs that do not have a profession mechanic trade-off should get one so both gameplay with them is different enough, so there's things the elite profession mechanics can't do that the core version can.

TL;DR: Unique profession mechanics trade-offs ensure you have a leg to stand on to make changes that affect core without affecting elite specializations. And so all elite specializations should have them.

A tradeoff would need to come with an appropriate gain to make it worth to play the spec. while i agree with you on the principle that an elite specialisation should not be a better version of the core spec and that it should have his balanced merits and tradeoffs to balance out the advantages, the "tradeoff" that is going to be implemented is not a tradeoff in that sense. It is a straight up nerf of a completly balanced build, that noone complained about, that was not thought through. Daredevil makes d/p viable, while acro makes s/d viable it doesnt need a forced "tradeoff" because there is nothing relevant for a d/p DD that you would gain with this change the unblockable steal is by far overshadowed by the range nerf and THAT is the tradeoff you trade the range for an unblockable steal but its not reasonable. Daredevil as it is is totally fine because the gain the traitline brings is not vastly more powerfull than the core counterparts wich is why a core spec is in the current meta. If however you want to make the DD to be able to play as a pointholder you would need to buff it in its 1v1 capeability and nerf it in its mobility. But that is not what it is done here the gain of the unblockable steal doesnt make the Daredevil become a decent pointholder you would have to buff it a lot more to be able to do so and tweak the staff skills around so that they are all more usefull. This is just a straight up nerf for a class and a build that was totally fine out of lack of thought. I can imagine the thought process of the dev/team that did this was like the following:I was toled to put a tradeoff for every elite spec and Daredevil needs one too, because every class should have one. It was designed like a class that should fight melee with staff but is used in a diffrent way, so lets force that by cutting down the mobility and giving it an unblockable steal because that should do. Oh and change the traitline in a way that all defense skills are in the minor all damage in the master and the dodge in the gm tier because apparently thats important.

No regard of the current state or balance of the class, no knowledge about the current meta and the possible impact that change would bring to existing balanced builds and no knowledge about what it would take to actually make the daredevil a viable brawler/pointholder, just an idea of the concept of a class as a brawler that they try to push through .

I get that the devs just make their job and the game is not a hobby for them and if i where in their shoes id probably do the same, but that doesnt change the fact that this change is one that better doesnt go live as it is currently planned and i sincerly hope that they will take the advice of the community and make an actual amazing daredevil, because that is what is all about. To make every specialisation unique and fun to play and have high but balanced builddiversity. They have to see themselfs that a badly balanced daredevil elite spec will be harmfull for the game and thats the last thing we want.

[Quadox.7834]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@Sniper.5961 said:[...]As i mentioned you have the tradeoff by not being able to take another traitline like acrobatics instead of DD. Infact the tradeoff of taking DD over acro is so big, that the meta for the thief is to play core s/d, no tradeoff needed here its already balanced d/p DD is absolutely balanced and a lot of people would even say sub par to s/d core. The only tradeoff that would be justifyable would be if you made steal unblockable for a NEW pointholder/duelist type of build.

That is

not

a

profession mechanic

trade-off. All elite specializations have the 2-core-trait tradeoff, and it's not enough to make the profession feel fundamentally different if it doesn't come with a loss or replacement in the profession mechanic (F1...F5)Traits may change skills and stats enough to be able to do some things you can't do without the 3 core, but it's not a

fundamental

difference. It's being able to dodge more, or spam an initiative skill more, or use a skill more often, or stay in stealth longer, and combinations of things done better or a bit different, but it's still all additions.

While you can't do combinations that require 3 core specializations, it isn't a binary change like when you can no longer can use a core shroud skill, or when holosmith can no longer use elite toolbelt skills.

Take Berserker. Before the upcoming change, you could do most things core warrior could do. Some better, some worse. But now, you will actually lose the core bursts, and have them replaced with the primal bursts.But a trade-off doesn't have to be that radical to make the profession feel different. Spellbreaker keeps bursts similar to core bursts, but they are limited to level 1, and they also lose 1 bar of adrenaline. That's still fundamentally different, enough to make the profession feel different.

By having unique features for core that elites won't get, you can balance better the game, since there will be factors that divide core and elites. Without such a separation, all the changes you do to all of core will be inherited by the elite.For example, if scrapper got a different F5 skill, like an offensive 'action gyro' skill to complement their 'function gyro', then when core engineer feels underwhelming, it could get extra power by improving the F5 toolbelt skills that would be unique to it, but right now any change you do to core engineer will be inherited by scrapper in their skills and traits. Scrapper may only be able to bring 2 of those trait lines, but they can bring any of the 5 core trait lines.

What I'm saying here is not to keep the change in the update preview, but Daredevil and all other elite specs that do not have a profession mechanic trade-off should get one so both gameplay with them is different enough, so there's things the elite profession mechanics can't do that the core version can.

TL;DR: Unique profession mechanics trade-offs ensure you have a leg to stand on to make changes that affect core without affecting elite specializations. And so all elite specializations should have them.

Great post!

[SoulSin.5682]

Remove the change.

Besides killing D/P and putting a slab on D/D , what else does this change does?

Make Staff DD a duelist?How come you can have a duelist without proper sustain on point? Do they actually believe that a bonus to vit and some weakness will actually make us capable of 1x1 other Duelist classes?Quit dreaming.

Staff DD in its best scenarios will become the same as Weaver or current-state druid. A "Duelist" that can barelly 1x1 and can't 1x2.In other words: useless.

To kill a build that players have being playing since 2015 in exchange for a duelist build that can barely be classified as "Good" on metabattle. That's all this change does.Remove it.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

Eh Id be fine with the change if it did something other than being unblockable.

Sweep the Leg would be more interesting than a swipe. Where its an unblockable knock down.

[LONGA.1652]

The steal range nerf would be ok if A-net finally fix the wonky hit detection of Impairing dagger and scorpion wire . its been buggy since its implement in the game

[Safandula.8723]

@"SoulSin.5682" said:Remove the change.

Besides killing D/P and putting a slab on D/D , what else does this change does?

Make Staff DD a duelist?How come you can have a duelist without proper sustain on point? Do they actually believe that a bonus to vit and some weakness will actually make us capable of 1x1 other Duelist classes?Quit dreaming.

Staff DD in its best scenarios will become the same as Weaver or current-state druid. A "Duelist" that can barelly 1x1 and can't 1x2.In other words: useless.

To kill a build that players have being playing since 2015 in exchange for a duelist build that can barely be classified as "Good" on metabattle. That's all this change does.Remove it.

Before patch I could duel on staff any class but boonbeasts and mby holo, rn it will be just easier

[bq pd.2148]

hmm for some reason i thought it would be an AoE the first time i read the change..i mean that would be much better than just unblockable for 600 range.btw do we retain the extra 50 endurance or is this replacing our 3rd dodge? (would be important for pve dps cause of havoc stepcialist)

[KrHome.1920]

Daredevils trade 1200 range steals for a third endurance bar, a modified (improved!) dodge and the class mechanic being unblockable by default (you have basically a free basilisk now on top of your overpowered dagger storm). 600 range stealing is more than a fair tradeoff regarding the fact that daredevil is the melee oriented thief specialisation. Deadeye is hide and burst and core is a bit of everything but a master of none.

[Sniper.5961]

@MUDse.7623 said:hmm for some reason i thought it would be an AoE the first time i read the change..i mean that would be much better than just unblockable for 600 range.btw do we retain the extra 50 endurance or is this replacing our 3rd dodge? (would be important for pve dps cause of havoc stepcialist)

we still have 3 dodges

[Sniper.5961]

@LONGA.1652 said:The steal range nerf would be ok if A-net finally fix the wonky hit detection of Impairing dagger and scorpion wire . its been buggy since its implement in the game

no it would not be ok why would that be the case? They should fix these 2 anyway thats a bug if the detection is wonky

[Sniper.5961]

@KrHome.1920 said:Daredevils trade 1200 range steals for a third endurance bar, a modified (improved!) dodge and the class mechanic being unblockable by default (you have basically a free basilisk now on top of your overpowered dagger storm). 600 range stealing is more than a fair tradeoff regarding the fact that daredevil is the melee oriented thief specialisation. Deadeye is hide and burst and core is a bit of everything but a master of none.

No its not, the tradeoff is ONLY unblockable steal for halving the range of steal and that is not a fair tradeoff its a nerf. The other merits are in line with other traitlines you have to compare them all of the core traitlines give only merits NO drawbacks because they dont need to and the daredevil traitline is in no way vastly superior to them so if they dont chanage the steal to be unblockable it doesnt need a drawback at all. Daredevil traitline is even so much in line with the other traitlines that the current metabuild of the s/d core thief for spvp chooses to take 3 core traitlines over Daredevil because all 3 are better. Daredevil traitline as it is does NOT need a drawback it is already in line with the other traitlines your argument completly disregards the exsistance of other traitlines.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Sniper.5961 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Daredevils trade 1200 range steals for a third endurance bar, a modified (improved!) dodge and the class mechanic being unblockable by default (you have basically a free basilisk now on top of your overpowered dagger storm). 600 range stealing is more than a fair tradeoff regarding the fact that daredevil is the melee oriented thief specialisation. Deadeye is hide and burst and core is a bit of everything but a master of none.

No its not, the tradeoff is ONLY unblockable steal for halving the range of steal and that is not a fair tradeoff its a nerf. The other merits are in line with other traitlines you have to compare them all of the core traitlines give only merits NO drawbacks because they dont need to and the daredevil traitline is in no way vastly superior to them so if they dont chanage the steal to be unblockable it doesnt need a drawback at all. Daredevil traitline is even so much in line with the other traitlines that the current metabuild of the s/d core thief for spvp chooses to take 3 core traitlines over Daredevil because all 3 are better. Daredevil traitline as it is does NOT need a drawback it is already in line with the other traitlines your argument completly disregards the exsistance of other traitlines.

If the existence of a drawback leads to buffs later on to improve brawling capabilities for daredevil, it could be alright, but it's not gonna get sorted in one patch by the looks of it.

[bq pd.2148]

another option ofc would be instead of just steal unblockable, steal providing an unblockable buff for a few seconds like warrior/soulbeast/reaper can have insane uptimes..

[Sniper.5961]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Sniper.5961 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Daredevils trade 1200 range steals for a third endurance bar, a modified (improved!) dodge and the class mechanic being unblockable by default (you have basically a free basilisk now on top of your overpowered dagger storm). 600 range stealing is more than a fair tradeoff regarding the fact that daredevil is the melee oriented thief specialisation. Deadeye is hide and burst and core is a bit of everything but a master of none.

No its not, the tradeoff is ONLY unblockable steal for halving the range of steal and that is not a fair tradeoff its a nerf. The other merits are in line with other traitlines you have to compare them all of the core traitlines give only merits NO drawbacks because they dont need to and the daredevil traitline is in no way vastly superior to them so if they dont chanage the steal to be unblockable it doesnt need a drawback at all. Daredevil traitline is even so much in line with the other traitlines that the current metabuild of the s/d core thief for spvp chooses to take 3 core traitlines over Daredevil because all 3 are better. Daredevil traitline as it is does NOT need a drawback it is already in line with the other traitlines your argument completly disregards the exsistance of other traitlines.

If the existence of a drawback leads to buffs later on to improve brawling capabilities for daredevil, it could be alright, but it's not gonna get sorted in one patch by the looks of it.

That doesnt make it fine to implement it as it is right now its unreasonable and it will be for a long time unless they make drastic changes to the class

[UNOwen.7132]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Sniper.5961 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Daredevils trade 1200 range steals for a third endurance bar, a modified (improved!) dodge and the class mechanic being unblockable by default (you have basically a free basilisk now on top of your overpowered dagger storm). 600 range stealing is more than a fair tradeoff regarding the fact that daredevil is the melee oriented thief specialisation. Deadeye is hide and burst and core is a bit of everything but a master of none.

No its not, the tradeoff is ONLY unblockable steal for halving the range of steal and that is not a fair tradeoff its a nerf. The other merits are in line with other traitlines you have to compare them all of the core traitlines give only merits NO drawbacks because they dont need to and the daredevil traitline is in no way vastly superior to them so if they dont chanage the steal to be unblockable it doesnt need a drawback at all. Daredevil traitline is even so much in line with the other traitlines that the current metabuild of the s/d core thief for spvp chooses to take 3 core traitlines over Daredevil because all 3 are better. Daredevil traitline as it is does NOT need a drawback it is already in line with the other traitlines your argument completly disregards the exsistance of other traitlines.

If the existence of a drawback leads to buffs later on to improve brawling capabilities for daredevil, it could be alright, but it's not gonna get sorted in one patch by the looks of it.

Then they should wait until they have the buffs ready, and implement them both in the same patch. But we know there arent any buffs coming. This is just a weird nerf for no reason, especially in PvE.

[Crab Fear.1624]

What is Swipe?What does it do other than be unblockable with a sad range?Does it give new stolen skills?Does physical supremacy still give the extra 50 energy?

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

@MUDse.7623 said:another option ofc would be instead of just steal unblockable, steal providing an unblockable buff for a few seconds like warrior/soulbeast/reaper can have insane uptimes..

+1 a million times

[Sniper.5961]

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:another option ofc would be instead of just steal unblockable, steal providing an unblockable buff for a few seconds like warrior/soulbeast/reaper can have insane uptimes..

+1 a million times

still would not be enough to make the thief a good pointholder and all of the problems mentioned above would still exist

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

@Sniper.5961 said:

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:another option ofc would be instead of just steal unblockable, steal providing an unblockable buff for a few seconds like warrior/soulbeast/reaper can have insane uptimes..

+1 a million times

still would not be enough to make the thief a good pointholder and all of the problems mentioned above would still exist

That's true, but it's still better than losing 600 range on steal for 1 unblockable strike.

[fluidmonolith.3584]

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

@Sniper.5961 said:

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:another option ofc would be instead of just steal unblockable, steal providing an unblockable buff for a few seconds like warrior/soulbeast/reaper can have insane uptimes..

+1 a million times

still would not be enough to make the thief a good pointholder and all of the problems mentioned above would still exist

That's true, but it's still better than losing 600 range on steal for 1 unblockable strike.

I hope they will reduce the cooldown on Swipe to make up for the drastic range reduction, that would help a lot. But it's not mentioned in the dev post, so I don't expect it.

[Crab Fear.1624]

Most thief class swap and don't care anymore lol. Don't expect change

[Safandula.8723]

@fluidmonolith.3584 said:

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

@Sniper.5961 said:

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:another option ofc would be instead of just steal unblockable, steal providing an unblockable buff for a few seconds like warrior/soulbeast/reaper can have insane uptimes..

+1 a million times

still would not be enough to make the thief a good pointholder and all of the problems mentioned above would still exist

That's true, but it's still better than losing 600 range on steal for 1 unblockable strike.

I hope they will reduce the cooldown on Swipe to make up for the drastic range reduction, that would help a lot. But it's not mentioned in the dev post, so I don't expect it.

CD reduction would be nice compensation actually, I could take it

[babazhook.6805]

Added to this , the change to steal wherein it becomes swipe impacts weaponsets already in a bad way that use the Daredevil line. P/P , P/d , dagger/dagger suffer much more as they have limited access to ports. D/D will have to find ways to get closer without being killed and p/p p/d will have to fight at 600 or less range in order to use steal which not condusive to being able to survive.