Thief Balance changes coming!

[Safandula.8723]

@"Nomad.4301" said:I don't get it. Are these "trade-offs" for elite specs suppose to make us take a second look at running vanilla specs? Because as far as I'm aware vanilla thief has exactly one viable build and that is only for pvp/wvw (S/D) and even that has been on the receiving end of many nerfs.

Making steal 50% worse for daredevil isn't a "trade-off" it's just making daredevil worse for nothing, nobody is going to consider running vanilla builds for this, and nobody is going to run DD for a neutered un-blockable steal. It just makes the current options worse for absolutely no reason.

IMO the "trade-off" for running DD was precisely that it changed thief so very little compared to most other elites, all it really gave us is 1 dodge and... staff?The whole reason vanilla S/D is viable at all is because swapping out DD for acro means we lost very little in terms of power and gained synergy/sustain.

Apart from granting access to staff and new utilities (most of which are never used) DD was basically equal in value to most other thief trait lines, main reason DD is run in PvE is because staff happens to be the highest DPS weapon, not because DD has really good traits (I personally think Trickery has better traits) or because we need that extra dodge.

TLDR; Before the patch DD gave us 1 bar of endurance + staff, after the patch DD gives us 1 bar of endurance + staff and a worse version of steal, why? Was it considered OP after more then 3 years? Is DD so over-tuned (lol) that it NEEDS a trade-off to "balance" it? Was this designed to make baseline look more attractive in some way?

trade off means u get something for something, liek changing f1-3 on guards. it just changes ur play style. in case of core thief, its only about traitlines, but daredevil was just better thief, tho i agree 600 range is shit. poor d/p daredevil

[killy.3278]

Am I reading the same notes as everyone else? Why is everyone saying Weakness uptime will be increased after the change? Right now the trait already has 50% weakness up time, 5s per application on a 10s CD.

With the change it's going to mirror Daredevil Runes mechanic, so it's dropping down to 3s per application for 50 endurance. So this means you need to spend a Dodge every 6 seconds to achieve parity with the current trait. This is more than normal endurance regen, so unless you're taking Acro for enhanced Vigor, you're probably not gonna pull even.

I hope people are not mistaking "dodge" for "evade". As it reads right now, only dodge-roll works, things like RFI and Withdrawal will not trigger the new Weakening Strikes.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

Im confused about the damage reduction and sad that trickery and ini isn't being addressed yet. But I do like the changes so far.

I am really curious to see how sweep will work. And I sincerely HOPE they get rid of fatigue on the unhindered combatant after reducing the range on sweep.

The marauders looks pretty interesting too. It gives you a bit more protection as a zerks build at about 1730 additional hp. And the 10% damage reduction for nearby attackers pushes it up quite a bit too. Probably just under marauders

Trade off is ranged attacks will murder you. And you can't jump on the ranger as quickly.

[Alatar.7364]

@ArcanistSeven.8720 said:sounds like rev just became the new roamer time to reroll.

It already was for quite some time, now its just re-confirmed.

[Alatar.7364]

@bluri.2653 said:Swipe pretty much imo makes any non staff builds unviable at toptier as drd.

DP thief not being able to spike closer than 600y is a joke so that build is dead which was closest to SD. Now its all about playing sd thief only, fun. ???

Core D/P back in business! ... or is it...

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Maybe it is because my brain isn't working right now, but a lot of these changes seem random and stupid.

First, I see absolutely no value in making Steal unblockable. Alone it does nothing, being wholly inconsequential. The damage from Mug is paltry, as is the poison from Deadly Arts. It cannot be used to seal the deal on a kill, or provide meaningful offense in the face of sequential invulnerability skills. The daze from trickery isn't of much value, either, because you aren't interrupting a meaningful skill with it. At most, you're interrupting a channeled invulnerability skill, which you can just wait out because the enemy isn't doing damage to you anyway. Does the effect of hidden thief actually mis-fire when blocked? I legitimately don't know. Last I checked, RNG granting aegis to a mesmer is a fringe case scenario not really worth prepping against. The main benefit to Steal is that it was a movement skill, and without that movement you might as well not have it.

Over here in Revenant land, when Shiro gives us "unblockable" it persists for the next few attacks. I'll follow up Phase Traversal with Death strike and friggen wreck face. Now, if the new steal made the next few attacks unblockable, then it would be valuable. But it doesn't so the benefit of the skill is trivial at best.

Second, where the hell do all of these traits go? It is hard to judge the effectiveness of any of these traits when their placement is incredibly vague. I'm guessing that the new adept tier is this:

Brawler's TenacityEscapist AbsolutionMarauder's Resilience

The first thing I notice is that this is a damage nerf, since PVE DDs no longer get a damage boosting trait in low tier.. No more havoc + staff mastery.. So that's a 7% reduction in overall DPS as well as a DPS reduction in the staff attacks. Why? No discernible reason. Also, these traits are redundant. They all increase defense, but the only one worth anything is Escapist Absolution in PVP, because it is the only one that cleanses conditions.

Marauder's Resilience is a prime example of a trait that was poorly thought out. First, the vitality bonus gained from power is negligible. At 2500 resting power, you'll get 1750 health. This is not a significant amount of health. DD is still dead in a single Rapid Fire or Deathstrike. This is less health than the now uncleansed burn is going to take from you. The -10% damage reduction at close range seems like it might be good, but it really isn't. See, these traits work well on other classes because they have a lot of sustain, a lot of barrier, and a lot of health. Thief doesn't. Being in 360 range means that you'll be under constant melee onslaught, and even with the 1750 health and 10% reduction in damage the Thief still has the lowest DPS X Effective Health product in the game. Everybody else STILL beats you just by chasing you down and auto attacking. In PVE, it won't be taken over Browler's Tenacity, because BT actually increases DPS, while still giving about 1500 extra health by reducing Channeled Vigor's cooldown.

The new Havoc Mastery is stupid. It commits the same mistake that the old Staff Mastery makes, and it also now competes directly with the new staff mastery. I mean the really old staff mastery, which didn't do anything before you were low on endurance. Staff mastery will be taken in all game modes, because a consistent boost is going to be better than an inconsistent boost that contradicts conservative play.

The only thing that doesn't seem to be either useless or a nerf is the change to Weakening Strikes. On the one hand, it is only half as good now, since the weakness uptime has changed from 50% to 30%, and it requires blowing a dodge instead of working immediately with no further investment whatsoever. On the other hand, it is now essentially given free to Daredevils. Does this compensate for all the nerfs Daredevil just received? No, it does not.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Maybe it is because my brain isn't working right now, but a lot of these changes seem random and stupid.

First, I see absolutely no value in making Steal unblockable. Alone it does nothing, being wholly inconsequential. The damage from Mug is paltry, as is the poison from Deadly Arts. It cannot be used to seal the deal on a kill, or provide meaningful offense in the face of sequential invulnerability skills. The daze from trickery isn't of much value, either, because you aren't interrupting a meaningful skill with it. At most, you're interrupting a channeled invulnerability skill, which you can just wait out because the enemy isn't doing damage to you anyway. Does the effect of hidden thief actually mis-fire when blocked? I legitimately don't know. Last I checked, RNG granting aegis to a mesmer is a fringe case scenario not really worth prepping against. The main benefit to Steal is that it was a movement skill, and without that movement you might as well not have it.

Over here in Revenant land, when Shiro gives us "unblockable" it persists for the next few attacks. I'll follow up Phase Traversal with Death strike and friggen wreck face. Now, if the new steal made the next few attacks unblockable, then it would be valuable. But it doesn't so the benefit of the skill is trivial at best.

Second, where the hell do all of these traits go? It is hard to judge the effectiveness of any of these traits when their placement is incredibly vague. I'm guessing that the new adept tier is this:

Brawler's TenacityEscapist AbsolutionMarauder's Resilience

The first thing I notice is that this is a damage nerf, since PVE DDs no longer get a damage boosting trait in low tier.. No more havoc + staff mastery.. So that's a 7% reduction in overall DPS as well as a DPS reduction in the staff attacks. Why? No discernible reason. Also, these traits are redundant. They all increase defense, but the only one worth anything is Escapist Absolution in PVP, because it is the only one that cleanses conditions.

Marauder's Resilience is a prime example of a trait that was poorly thought out. First, the vitality bonus gained from power is negligible. At 2500 resting power, you'll get 1750 health. This is not a significant amount of health. DD is still dead in a single Rapid Fire or Deathstrike. This is less health than the now uncleansed burn is going to take from you. The -10% damage reduction at close range seems like it might be good, but it really isn't. See, these traits work well on other classes because they have a lot of sustain, a lot of barrier, and a lot of health. Thief doesn't. Being in 360 range means that you'll be under constant melee onslaught, and even with the 1750 health and 10% reduction in damage the Thief still has the lowest DPS X Effective Health product in the game. Everybody else STILL beats you just by chasing you down and auto attacking. In PVE, it won't be taken over Browler's Tenacity, because BT actually increases DPS, while still giving about 1500 extra health by reducing Channeled Vigor's cooldown.

The new Havoc Mastery is stupid. It commits the same mistake that the old Staff Mastery makes, and it also now competes directly with the new staff mastery. I mean the really old staff mastery, which didn't do anything before you were low on endurance. Staff mastery will be taken in all game modes, because a consistent boost is going to be better than an inconsistent boost that contradicts conservative play.

The only thing that doesn't seem to be either useless or a nerf is the change to Weakening Strikes. On the one hand, it is only half as good now, since the weakness uptime has changed from 50% to 30%, and it requires blowing a dodge instead of working immediately with no further investment whatsoever. On the other hand, it is now essentially given free to Daredevils. Does this compensate for all the nerfs Daredevil just received? No, it does not.

Just wait for the balance patch to see how it goes.

I am with you on the swipe. It hardly seems like it's worth much if it was just unblockable. When thief uses Steal, most of the time, we don't actually worry about it being blocked. We usually steal when they can't do anything else. And if we do the steal backstab combo, they will never see it coming. So if they pre-empt the attack it's a win for us. If the Swipe did something that made up for it being a short ranged Steal, then we'd have something. I wouldn't mind losing stolen skills as a daredevil if the stolen skill does something completely different. Or the daredevil has their own set of stolen skills. Skills that makes them more effective at brawling.

Things like gaining super speed - Mesmer.Sucker Punch - Warrior.7 Strike attack - Revenant ( a taste of their own medicen for once)Throat Punch - ElementalistIrritating Powder - Guardian.etc

[Safandula.8723]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Does this compensate for all the nerfs Daredevil just received? No, it does not.

What are all these nerfs do daredevil except of shorten steal range? Cuz I see only buffs. Only d/p dd will be rly hurt

[Seis.4736]

So what happens when DS triggers an evade? Do the daggers apply weakness on foes every after evade? I think we need to see how the new swipe will be with existing steal traits such as mug. Might end up as a nice skirm finisher along with DD elite

Edit* or maybe it may work as a short port -> combo with all the physical skills going on with the DD

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Does this compensate for all the nerfs Daredevil just received? No, it does not.

What are all these nerfs do daredevil except of shorten steal range? Cuz I see only buffs. Only d/p dd will be rly hurt

Daredevil's staff has damage nerfs. Likely because of the Damage increase from the minor trait, and the trait that gives a +5% damage boost for each endurance bar. Annnd the buff that adds flat power for a staff... which is rarely ever worth taking.

[Markri.9475]

@"Seis.4736" said:So what happens when DS triggers an evade? Do the daggers apply weakness on foes every after evade?

The weakening comes after "dodge", it affects using a dodge. Not abilities that have evade (If we are to assume the wording they used is accurate).

Overall I do like the intent with the changes. Though I dread having to take the stairs on Forest of Niflhel.

[Safandula.8723]

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Does this compensate for all the nerfs Daredevil just received? No, it does not.

What are all these nerfs do daredevil except of shorten steal range? Cuz I see only buffs. Only d/p dd will be rly hurt

Daredevil's staff has damage nerfs. Likely because of the Damage increase from the minor trait, and the trait that gives a +5% damage boost for each endurance bar. Annnd the buff that adds flat power for a staff... which is rarely ever worth taking.

yea 2 first parts of chain will lack some dmg for sure ;/ in master u will have to choose between flat powe + endurance on initiative or % dmg from lacking endurance bars. Im only wondering if Marauder's Resilience will be adept or minor

[Seis.4736]

@Markri.9475 said:

@"Seis.4736" said:So what happens when DS triggers an evade? Do the daggers apply weakness on foes every after evade?

The weakening comes after "dodge", it affects using a dodge. Not abilities that have evade (If we are to assume the wording they used is accurate).

Overall I do like the intent with the changes. Though I dread having to take the stairs on Forest of Niflhel.

Ahh makes better sense if it is really a dodge effect. Imagine it would be too broken if it was on evade.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

It's unclear from the wording, but would swipe be a separate move with its own damage and effect? If so the unblockable might be alright, I mean, an unblockable teleport on its own doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Jack Redline.5379]

MY first reaction was in a way of * ** *** *** * ***** and so on. WHY would they reduce Steal to Swipe what kind of bs is that? Thief that needs to be as far as possible from anything in this game atm has to come 600 range close to get an Ecto from Mirage or mesmer or at least impact his opponent with a steal. And where is the trade of for that? Will this Swipe put more poison on him? will it deal more dmg? The fact it is unblockable is like throw them a bone to pick it up manner of trade off. I am outraged right now and i want to fire even more ppl from Anet rn. or at least that moron that came up with these changes. I frankly dont care for staff but this single thing has put me on a blood thirsty berserker mode!!!!!!

[Jack Redline.5379]

@babazhook.6805 said:

One word. Whiteknighting

[Markri.9475]

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:It's unclear from the wording, but would swipe be a separate move with its own damage and effect? If so the unblockable might be alright, I mean, an unblockable teleport on its own doesn't make a lot of sense.

"Steal becomes swipe" Id assume it means the same as "swipe replaces steal".I kinda hopes it means I can interrupt warriors that think they are safe while using Shield Stance, using the daze on steal trait. basi venom was to me too slow to counter blocks.

[melandru.3876]

steal unblockable is quite good imo

with how bountifull theft and selight of hands works i see only benefits

steal unblockable (and aegis is highest boon priority for bountidul theft as can be seen https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft)

so aegis is negated, that means the 3 boons you steal will be stab and prot.the steal happens first, so rip stability which will proc sleight of hand, and with superior sigil of absorbtion that daze can further remove boons. all because of unblockable

imo that is worth way more then the cut in range

[bq pd.2148]

@"melandru.3876" said:steal unblockable is quite good imo

with how bountifull theft and selight of hands works i see only benefits

steal unblockable (and aegis is highest boon priority for bountidul theft as can be seen https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft)

so aegis is negated, that means the 3 boons you steal will be stab and prot.the steal happens first, so rip stability which will proc sleight of hand, and with superior sigil of absorbtion that daze can further remove boons. all because of unblockable

imo that is worth way more then the cut in range

for it to steal an additional boon on a target with aegis, aegis would have to be put further back in the boon priority else it will still just steal aegis and work like before. moving aegies to a lower priority in boutiful theft would be a heavy nerf for core/DE.

[Markri.9475]

@"melandru.3876" said:steal unblockable is quite good imo

with how bountifull theft and selight of hands works i see only benefits

steal unblockable (and aegis is highest boon priority for bountidul theft as can be seen https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft)

so aegis is negated, that means the 3 boons you steal will be stab and prot.the steal happens first, so rip stability which will proc sleight of hand, and with superior sigil of absorbtion that daze can further remove boons. all because of unblockable

imo that is worth way more then the cut in range

Steal becoming unblockable doesnt change how bountiful steals, current bountiful steal isnt blocked by aegis. Its if they are using blockabilities that swipe will go through. aegis will still be boonripped in the sameway regardless.

[saerni.2584]

@Jack Redline.5379

Repeater will get used because if you are playing P/D you often find yourself using Shadowstrike.

On Deadeye, sometimes a Dancing Dagger will easily be avoided or just not hit. Shadowstrike, however, lets you follow up with a channeled skill to build malice. Unlike Dancing Dagger, Repeater tracks the target and also has a longer Chanel than a single dodge.

By making it cheaper, Anet made gave Repeater better synergy with the Deadeye stealth on stolen skills. This is actually a good buff despite my personal issue with how long the flip skill is available for.

Given that they are trying to give the elite specializations trade offs this trend may give Daredevils over time better sustain abilities. It might not be there yet so providing feedback after the patch will be crucial. Keep in mind that some other professions are being adjusted in this patch and other elite specs may follow in the near future (with new changes made based on feedback to previous elite specialization adjustments).

[Crab Fear.1624]

Need greater percentage of vitality based on power. I think 15% is better. Imagine 2500 power, it's currently only 1750 extra health, 2500 at 10%, and 3750 at 15%. It should add toughness too if you want daredevil to be duelist.

I have a hard time imagining this won't be crap, but maybe someone has a good idea that will be broken as crap and you nerf it anyways

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

I like the idea of these changes (to make DD a true brawler spec), but I don't think it's going to work so well in this iteration. The loss of range on Steal alone is really, really going to hurt in a match against a ranged prof. Think if the Unblockable aspect of Swipe was extended for like 2 secs or the next two hits, that would help compensate a little. At least then we would have a better chance against melee attackers to balance out the extra risk from ranged.

Another thing I would like to see is some tweaks on Staff to give it a little more defensive vocabulary. A big one that comes to mind is putting a Reflect on the kit somewhere, perhaps staff 2 or 3.

Again, I really do like the idea of having staff DD be a true brawler, just not sure how well this is going to work at this point. Fingers crossed that the devs keep on top of the changes they are making.

[Sobx.1758]

@"MindWipe.3028" said:the only change they actually made here today was the steal being 600 range now. the class will still play exactly the same. these changes are all fluff so they could sneak in the steal nerf. also why is daggerstorm untouched for the 3rd patch in a row?

Wasn't really "sneaky", they said DD needs a tradeoff and that's what it is. 600 range is harsh, but maybe they decided to swing harder, see how it goes and potentially increase it a little later. The trait "clean up" is fine on the first glance.That said, they definitly took a 'shorcut' instead of changing steal into something else (and then it actually might have been even worse than having a short range gapcloser btw).

[Yannir.4132]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The first thing I notice is that this is a damage nerf, since PVE DDs no longer get a damage boosting trait in low tier.. No more havoc + staff mastery.. So that's a 7% reduction in overall DPS as well as a DPS reduction in the staff attacks. Why? No discernible reason. Also, these traits are redundant. They all increase defense, but the only one worth anything is Escapist Absolution in PVP, because it is the only one that cleanses conditions.

You are misreading that, it's actually a 10% damage buff in an ideal scenario. The +7% from Havoc Mastery is moving to the new version of Weakening Strikes that is becoming a minor which you get for free now essentially. The new Havoc Specialist Master trait can give +15% extra damage as opposed to the +5% from Staff Master that is getting removed. Staff Master is gaining stats but I think a +10-15% more damage from Havoc Specialist is more valuable than that Power from SM.