Condition damage vs condition cleanse

[Azaka.8315]

Conditions and cleanse are out of control.I love playing condition heavy builds in all parts of the game, but with time it fell more and more.In PvE the problem is that bosses have phases that stop conditions and usually are best bursted in short intervals. Conditions are still playable and in rare occasions can be even better, but the trajectory is pretty clear looking back at the last years.

In PvP the dynamic between conditions application and conditions cleanse got completely out of control.First conditions were strong because not many classes ran a lot of condition cleanse and people generally weren't as good looking out for conditions and their counter play potential,but after a while (with the expansions) things got a bit crazy. People started to play around conditions and used all the condition cleanse that was in the game and suddenly conditions felt very specific.Instead of balancing around that a decision was made to counteract the balancing issue by power spiking condition classes into the high heavens. Not by making them deal tons of damage, but by making certain classes apply insane amounts of different conditions and also making these classes able to reapply these conditions with incredible speed.This made conditions into something similar to a power burst, but with conditions (which is not really the idea of conditions, at least for me) so the condition burst meta was born.In reaction to this meta they didn't tune back some of the insane spam flying around but instead gave even more cleanse to even more classes and made a lot of it automatic.

Here is where the problems come in. At the moment none of the conditions build are viable anymore (apart from Scourge), because they nerfed the application somewhat, but still have all the countermeasures against the insane spam from before in place.With this in place we are clearly on the way to either a bunker meta where nobody can get killed or a power spike meta where you kill or be killed in a blink of an eye.

What baffles me most is the rework of runes that took out a lot of the 'auto' mechanics in an attempt to make things more active and with that skill based, but they totally forgot all the auto stuff that is still in traits.I think what needs to be done here to get the whole condition situation under control is a rework of both conditions and their removal and the first thing that should fall are the automatic removals that were so bad in runes but somehow escaped the cutting block everywhere else. After cutting down on conditions already I think it is time, for these pulsing non skill based defensive immortality spells against condition based builds, to go.

(Also, I'm tired of having to run torch on every condi build because it is just that good, please give us more viable options...)

[mortrialus.3062]

Your comments fall on deaf ears. I and others have mentioned this a number of times and no one really seems to care. I genuinely think a high majority of GW2 PvP players would be happier if everything was just bunkers and power burst.

[Azaka.8315]

@mortrialus.3062 said:Your comments fall on deaf ears. I and others have mentioned this a number of times and no one really seems to care. I genuinely think a high majority of GW2 PvP players would be happier if everything was just bunkers and power burst.

Before the new patch even puts us even more into this, I already can tell you about a fun game I had today.The opponents had 1 sic'em ranger, 2 burst fresh air eles, 1 one shot power mirage and one support.Our side firebrand was getting very salty because he had no chance of helping the team because people fell down in an instant with no chance to react.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

The condi/condi-mitigation dynamic has shifted drastically in favor of the latter, with the former becoming near non-existent, save for Scourge, as you said. Yet they add still more cleanse to the game, even if it is situational:

Dark Aura: This new effect reduces incoming condition damage by 20% and inflicts 2 seconds of torment when you are struck (1-second cooldown per attacker).

You might look at this recent discussion for a deep-dive on this topic:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72346/a-discussion-about-condition-damage-and-cleansing-why-is-it-always-broken

[sephiroth.4217]

@mortrialus.3062 said:Your comments fall on deaf ears. I and others have mentioned this a number of times and no one really seems to care. I genuinely think a high majority of GW2 PvP players would be happier if everything was just bunkers and power burst.

I hate conditions so you got me on that one.2 days ago I was up against 2 scourges, venom thief and mirage and I spent the whole game looking at my c0ndi bar and allies condi bar just cleansing like a mad man with water/fire condi clearing aura shares with soldier runes and still had an extremely hard time... drenched in aids, the fun of the game was drained out of that match, didnt care that we won but what an absolute crock of shit to play against.

Killing someone else playing a condition build makes me feel like a cheap skilless piece of shit too, no satisfaction in it at all.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

Condition builds have been OP for a very long time.Especially on a Mirage and to some extent, Necros.Ability to frequently apply and reapply damaging conditions on top of many covering conditions is just terrible.

Things are more fair now that players have more access to condition removals in general.You can't just apply conditions and spam reapply blindly because foes can also cleanse and cleanse and cleanse very frequently.Condition build players really have to play better now because timing your bursts becomes more important than just repeatedly spamming your applications in the hopes of out-lasting the cleanses that your opponents have.

Too many condi players have been relying on the lack of sufficient access to condition cleanses in general to just spam reapply to overload their foes.So few of them actually burst at proper timings in a fight.

Case in point, Reaper has had its condition builds nerfed into oblivion a long time ago to push it up the power pedestal.However, a well-played Condi Reaper can still win against some of the best anti-condition classes/builds even in this anti-condi meta.And even more amazing that this player managed it in WvW while we are in this anti-condi meta.

So in short, condition application is now balanced against condition cleanses and condi-players need to play better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaHYGzduxOE

[Azaka.8315]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Your comments fall on deaf ears. I and others have mentioned this a number of times and no one really seems to care. I genuinely think a high majority of GW2 PvP players would be happier if everything was just bunkers and power burst.

I hate conditions so you got me on that one.2 days ago I was up against 2 scourges, venom thief and mirage and I spent the whole game looking at my c0ndi bar and allies condi bar just cleansing like a mad man with water/fire condi clearing aura shares with soldier runes and still had an extremely hard time... drenched in aids, the fun of the game was drained out of that match, didnt care that we won but what an absolute crock of kitten to play against.

Killing someone else playing a condition build makes me feel like a cheap skilless piece of kitten too, no satisfaction in it at all.

The whole point was that both sides got completely power crept into oblivion. Conditions only worked because they had such an amount of application that it could withstand most removal, but after recent changes only scourge has any chance of getting conditions to stick because of the power crept cleanse.

My main complaint is about the automation traits that run contrary to ArenaNets own aim formulated during the rune rework by banning such automation stuff.A guardian with contemplation of purity at least has to press a button, but a weaver/engi etc doesn't even have to worry about conditions at all without doing anything but picking certain traits.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Azaka.8315 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Your comments fall on deaf ears. I and others have mentioned this a number of times and no one really seems to care. I genuinely think a high majority of GW2 PvP players would be happier if everything was just bunkers and power burst.

I hate conditions so you got me on that one.2 days ago I was up against 2 scourges, venom thief and mirage and I spent the whole game looking at my c0ndi bar and allies condi bar just cleansing like a mad man with water/fire condi clearing aura shares with soldier runes and still had an extremely hard time... drenched in aids, the fun of the game was drained out of that match, didnt care that we won but what an absolute crock of kitten to play against.

Killing someone else playing a condition build makes me feel like a cheap skilless piece of kitten too, no satisfaction in it at all.

The whole point was that both sides got completely power crept into oblivion. Conditions only worked because they had such an amount of application that it could withstand most removal, but after recent changes only scourge has any chance of getting conditions to stick because of the power crept cleanse.

My main complaint is about the automation traits that run contrary to ArenaNets own aim formulated during the rune rework by banning such automation stuff.A guardian with contemplation of purity at least has to press a button, but a weaver/engi etc doesn't even have to worry about conditions at all without doing anything but picking certain traits.

To be fair the Weaver and Ele already have a lot on thier plate and dont need that extra micromanagement...Some games are already bad enough that you can spend a whole game attuning for the sake of cleansing..

Eg:Prematurely going to Air for static aura detonation, switching to water for frost aura detonation then quickly rotating fire for fire ring to magnetic leap through for a fire aura..

I might be traited but dont sit there and say "atleast they have to push a button".. A button, 1 Button... meanwhile im playing an orchestra...

TLDR:IM JEALOUS OF THIER "1 BUTTON"!!!!

[Quadox.7834]

Condition builds are generally unfun to fight, you get cripple/slow/chill/weakness/poison so you can't move/use skills/do damage/heal which makes the game very frustrating and then you get covered by damaging conditions so you can't remove them. I suggest separate damaging conditions and inhibiting/debilitating conditions. Maybe make it so that cleanse always removes the most dangerous (most damaging) condition instead of thr most recent one.

[KrHome.1920]

Direct damage mitigation and condi damage mitigation are on par in the game right now. A condi damge group with a support is not less dangerous than a direct damage group with a support. Both groups can't be spiked by power burst if the support is doing his job.

In general: condi builds should not be as bursty as power builds since they can afford to invest in more sustain as they don't need to gear 3 stats for damage. So because it's easier for them to survive it has to be easier for their targets to survive.

What where you expecting? Condi as the "easy mode" of the game? Sorry to disappoint you.

[gateless gate.8406]

As with quickness/alacrity, the game would probably be healthier if they removed torment and confusion. This will never happen because game designers are allergic to removing what they have spent time creating.

[mortrialus.3062]

@"KrHome.1920" said:Direct damage mitigation and condi damage mitigation are on par in the game right now. A condi damge group with a support is not less dangerous than a direct damage group with a support. Both groups can't be spiked by power burst if the support is doing his job.

In general: condi builds should not be as bursty as power builds since they can afford to invest in more sustain as they don't need to gear 3 stats for damage. So because it's easier for them to survive it has to be easier for their targets to survive.

What where you expecting? Condi as the "easy mode" of the game? Sorry to disappoint you.

You're seriously trying to tell me Condi Warrior, Engineer, Revenant, Guardian, Elementalist, Ranger, and Thief are as good and dangerous as their power counterparts? Seriously, don't make me laugh.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@"KrHome.1920" said:Direct damage mitigation and condi damage mitigation are on par in the game right now. A condi damge group with a support is not less dangerous than a direct damage group with a support. Both groups can't be spiked by power burst if the support is doing his job.

In general: condi builds should not be as bursty as power builds since they can afford to invest in more sustain as they don't need to gear 3 stats for damage. So because it's easier for them to survive it has to be easier for their targets to survive.

What where you expecting? Condi as the "easy mode" of the game? Sorry to disappoint you.

What @"mortrialus.3062" said above.

And also, you're taking the ONE scenario in which condi is viable (Scourge + Firebrand/support basically) and saying "condi is on par with power because it works in this one situation that is also viable for power." While ignoring that condi is viable literally nowhere else, when power is. There is a reason we have only ONE viable condi build at the moment, and it's only so in the scenario mentioned. Please try again.

Extra credit: Read through this thread if you don't think there is far more counterplay to condi than direct damage.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72346/a-discussion-about-condition-damage-and-cleansing-why-is-it-always-broken

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@mortrialus.3062 said:You're seriously trying to tell me Condi Warrior, Engineer, Revenant, Guardian, Elementalist, Ranger, and Thief are as good and dangerous as their power counterparts? Seriously, don't make me laugh.Yeah, this.

The only reason mirage still exists is that it has a good variety of annoying conditions to apply and is capable of doing so regularly, and the only reason scourge still exists is because of area control and boon corruption (and even then, a lot of scourges go power these days, especially in WvW). Every other professions' condition builds are absolute garbage, even though on paper most of them are much more dangerous than mirage or scourge, because there's simply too much condition cleanse out there these days.

[Azaka.8315]

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:You're seriously trying to tell me Condi Warrior, Engineer, Revenant, Guardian, Elementalist, Ranger, and Thief are as good and dangerous as their power counterparts? Seriously, don't make me laugh.Yeah, this.

The only reason mirage still exists is that it has a good variety of annoying conditions to apply and is capable of doing so regularly, and the only reason scourge still exists is because of area control and boon corruption (and even

then

, a lot of scourges go power these days, especially in WvW). Every other professions' condition builds are absolute garbage, even though on paper most of them are

much

more dangerous than mirage or scourge, because there's simply too much condition cleanse out there these days.

I would argue Condi Mirage is not even there anymore. They gutted the amount of condis that get applied to a level that just doesn't do any pressure. So while they can reapply a lot of different conditions relatively quickly, the constant cleanse won't allow the stacks to get high enough to tickle most classes.It would be ok if there was less condi cleanse out there, but with the amount we got condi Mirage is no threat anymore (there is a reason most high level Mirage players already switched to power).

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"KrHome.1920" said:Direct damage mitigation and condi damage mitigation are on par in the game right now. A condi damge group with a support is not less dangerous than a direct damage group with a support. Both groups can't be spiked by power burst if the support is doing his job.

In general: condi builds should not be as bursty as power builds since they can afford to invest in more sustain as they don't need to gear 3 stats for damage. So because it's easier for them to survive it has to be easier for their targets to survive.

What where you expecting? Condi as the "easy mode" of the game? Sorry to disappoint you.

You're seriously trying to tell me Condi Warrior, Engineer, Revenant, Guardian, Elementalist, Ranger, and Thief are as good and dangerous as their power counterparts? Seriously, don't make me laugh.

Thieves and Rangers can actually throw out decent covering conditions similar to necro and mesmer.

The rest need a buff in terms of access to more covering condis, not the damaging condi itself though as they can all apply them well enough.

But it is balanced now against two of the most viable condi classes, mesmer and necro.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Azaka.8315 said:

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:You're seriously trying to tell me Condi Warrior, Engineer, Revenant, Guardian, Elementalist, Ranger, and Thief are as good and dangerous as their power counterparts? Seriously, don't make me laugh.Yeah, this.

The only reason mirage still exists is that it has a good variety of annoying conditions to apply and is capable of doing so regularly, and the only reason scourge still exists is because of area control and boon corruption (and even

then

, a lot of scourges go power these days, especially in WvW). Every other professions' condition builds are absolute garbage, even though on paper most of them are

much

more dangerous than mirage or scourge, because there's simply too much condition cleanse out there these days.

I would argue Condi Mirage is not even there anymore. They gutted the amount of condis that get applied to a level that just doesn't do any pressure. So while they can reapply a lot of conditions relatively quickly, but with the constant cleanse going on the stacks are so small that it barely tickles most classes.It would be ok if there was less condi cleanse out there, but with the amount we got condi Mirage is no threat anymore (there is a reason most high level Mirage players already switched to power).

Literally this. I think the bulk of the community needs to catch up on their understanding of the current condi meta.

A quick history:

1. Scourge and Condi-Mirage were power-crept such that they were the only viable condi builds.
2. Cleanse/condi-mitigation was power-crept to counter.
3. Condi-mirage was gutted in the March balance update, leaving only Scourge.
4. Cleanse has not been cut back.

Cleanse, just like damage in general, should be de-crept to allow more condi builds to be viable.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Azaka.8315 said:

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:You're seriously trying to tell me Condi Warrior, Engineer, Revenant, Guardian, Elementalist, Ranger, and Thief are as good and dangerous as their power counterparts? Seriously, don't make me laugh.Yeah, this.

The only reason mirage still exists is that it has a good variety of annoying conditions to apply and is capable of doing so regularly, and the only reason scourge still exists is because of area control and boon corruption (and even

then

, a lot of scourges go power these days, especially in WvW). Every other professions' condition builds are absolute garbage, even though on paper most of them are

much

more dangerous than mirage or scourge, because there's simply too much condition cleanse out there these days.

I would argue Condi Mirage is not even there anymore. They gutted the amount of condis that get applied to a level that just doesn't do any pressure. So while they can reapply a lot of conditions relatively quickly, but with the constant cleanse going on the stacks are so small that it barely tickles most classes.It would be ok if there was less condi cleanse out there, but with the amount we got condi Mirage is no threat anymore (there is a reason most high level Mirage players already switched to power).

Literally this. I think the bulk of the community needs to catch up on their understanding of the current condi meta.

A quick history:

1. Scourge and Condi-Mirage were power-crept such that they were the only viable condi builds.
2. Cleanse/condi-mitigation was power-crept to counter.
3. Condi-mirage was gutted in the March balance update, leaving only Scourge.
4. Cleanse has not been cut back.

Cleanse, just like damage in general, should be de-crept to allow more condi builds to be viable.

Yeeeep.

I used to play condi engineer in pre-HoT days. Felt really skillful to play.

Now? It's really, really bad.

[DragonFury.6243]

since condition is damage over time the counter should be cleanse over time but

First with all the cover up conditions its no longer consider damage over time and nor burst damage but really annoying broken type of damage

Second you dont need other than condition damage stat to do your all stack of condition damagemay be make Expertise increase the stack of conditions + its older effect to make it fair to power damage

Third the duration of soft CC is hugemay be make break stun remove 1 soft CC condition also

now these are my solution and i want say that they are good butif these 3 problems persist the condition cleanse should remain the samebut nerf the passive condition cleanse something like Transmuteand may be shake it off and few others

[Azaka.8315]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Azaka.8315 said:

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:You're seriously trying to tell me Condi Warrior, Engineer, Revenant, Guardian, Elementalist, Ranger, and Thief are as good and dangerous as their power counterparts? Seriously, don't make me laugh.Yeah, this.

The only reason mirage still exists is that it has a good variety of annoying conditions to apply and is capable of doing so regularly, and the only reason scourge still exists is because of area control and boon corruption (and even

then

, a lot of scourges go power these days, especially in WvW). Every other professions' condition builds are absolute garbage, even though on paper most of them are

much

more dangerous than mirage or scourge, because there's simply too much condition cleanse out there these days.

I would argue Condi Mirage is not even there anymore. They gutted the amount of condis that get applied to a level that just doesn't do any pressure. So while they can reapply a lot of conditions relatively quickly, but with the constant cleanse going on the stacks are so small that it barely tickles most classes.It would be ok if there was less condi cleanse out there, but with the amount we got condi Mirage is no threat anymore (there is a reason most high level Mirage players already switched to power).

Literally this. I think the bulk of the community needs to catch up on their understanding of the current condi meta.

A quick history:

1. Scourge and Condi-Mirage were power-crept such that they were the only viable condi builds.
2. Cleanse/condi-mitigation was power-crept to counter.
3. Condi-mirage was gutted in the March balance update, leaving only Scourge.
4. Cleanse has not been cut back.

Cleanse, just like damage in general, should be de-crept to allow more condi builds to be viable.

One thing that is also a reason why necro is still working is that the boon meta is also incredible power crept and necros have one of the strongest counters against that (corrupt).