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Evasive Mirror/Blinding Dissipation nerf severely handicaps power roaming


treizebee.2091

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Duelling looks like this now:

Minors:CI - 3s/10s vigour on crit... mehSI - goodFury - nice to have

Adept:mehmehPistol

Master:mehmehSword

Grandmaster:Good (SC)Ok (Ineptitude)Great (DE)

Like what are you supposed to choose in Adept and Master tier if not using Pistol or Sword? The whole line looks crap now apart from Deceptive Evasion.

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I think at this point dueling traitline is no longer worth taking for power mirages, Fencer's is an useless trait, a 20% sword cd reduction is not needed and the ferocity boost is an overkill.The blind won't help at all against pew pew builds, the reflect will be on too long cd and wasted 90% of the times because procs with any evade.I think dueling must be replaced with chaos or inspi.For condi builds blinding dissipation might be good in an ineptitude build who knows.

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@Curunen.8729 said:Duelling looks like this now:

Minors:CI - 3s/10s vigour on crit... mehSI - goodFury - nice to have

Adept:mehmehPistol

Master:mehmehSword

Grandmaster:Good (SC)Ok (Ineptitude)Great (DE)

Like what are you supposed to choose in Adept and Master tier if not using Pistol or Sword? The whole line looks kitten now apart from Deceptive Evasion.

I think some people will say kitten it and still go dueling to have a good grandmaster and fury access or go illusions.For wvw chaos will find its way with PU and mass inv.

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Well, I haven't played in a long time. However, after the Confounding suggestions was nerfed to 50% daze duration, I actually found I did much better ditching domination and taking illusions instead. Why? Superiority Complex with crit does more damage than the domination line (power block is a difficult skill to test since it is not just about damage and metal anguish is trash). With illusions you could sometimes get people off guard who didn't expect a second mind wrack using 'Shatter Storm'. Additionally, the critical hit chance from Master of Fragmentation paired nicely with Superiority Complex since it is based on crit hit). 'Escape artist' was also nice for a little bit of extra clone generation to make up for not taking Deceptive Evasion. However, you give up deceptive evasion to do so.

I tried this out before people started using focus and deceptive evasion because a certain streamer started to do it. At this time, Superiority Complex was widely chosen over Deceptive evasion in power builds. The 5 person hit from diversion in Master of Fragmentation in the illusion line is going to do nothing but make the new Confounding Suggestions look even better. However, at this time, I still don't know if it would be worth going Dom/Illus/Elite or Dom/Duel/Elite

Especially if you didn't use mantra of distractions before, I thought the domination trait line was overhyped and trash. Having a stun to land any damage was extremely important for the trait line. I know that I confirmed on dummies that you did far more burst damage with the Dueling line with Superiority Complex than with the Domination line before.

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@OriOri.8724 said:EM cd change is a bit extreme. 566% CD increase all at once is a pretty insane nerf. Would rather have seen it bumped up no higher than 6 or 8, especially considering that mirror was removed from master of manipulation.

On paper it is 566% but in reality it is not even close to that much of a nerf, since it is limited by endurance anyway. But yeah it was a stupid change, it will just be unreliable and annoying to use.

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I don't really see how buffing sword would do very much in PvP (it would help PvE). The main reason for bringing sword is blurred frenzy to avoid damage. Fencer's Finesse would decrease the cool down from 10 sec to 8 sec. It also gives 15 ferocity when your illusion hit with a sword. However, in PvP you are probably only going to have an illusion hit like one time before is either shattered or killed by the enemy. This means the trait will prob give you an extra 1% critical hit damage (maaaayb 2% if it hits twice). Will a 2 sec reduced cool down on blurred frenzy and 1% critical hit damage ever be worth taking in PvP? I mean, this is crap for PvP, isn't it? I just don't see how buffing sword will make the trait worth it to take. It would be worth it if you plan to bring offhand sword. However, I don't think that is going to happen.

If they want to make Fencer's Finesse worth taking in PvP for power, then they need to massively increase the cool down reduction. Blinding Dissipation will likely be worth taking for condi if it works with Ineptitude. Evasive Mirror will just be crap that will never be taken with a 20 sec ICD unless the ICD is Massively, massively reduced.

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@Xstein.2187 said:I don't really see how buffing sword would do very much in PvP (it would help PvE). The main reason for bringing sword is blurred frenzy to avoid damage. Fencer's Finesse would decrease the cool down from 10 sec to 8 sec. It also gives 15 ferocity when your illusion hit with a sword. However, in PvP you are probably only going to have an illusion hit like one time before is either shattered or killed by the enemy. This means the trait will prob give you an extra 1% critical hit damage (maaaayb 2% if it hits twice). Will a 2 sec reduced cool down on blurred frenzy and 1% critical hit damage ever be worth taking in PvP? I mean, this is kitten for PvP, isn't it? I just don't see how buffing sword will make the trait worth it to take. It would be worth it if you plan to bring offhand sword. However, I don't think that is going to happen.

Main reason for bringing sword is ambush. On core/chrono scepter is pretty much always better even on power atm.

Both sword 2 and 3 aren't that good. Blurred frenzy imo needs reduced hits but same damage (to deal with retal) and sword 3 needs improved reliability so the clone doesn't insta-die. Maybe add the ability to use sword 3 without target (as I think they did with elementalist magnetic leap). And yeah fencers is bad not just because it isn't a reliable/consistent, but also because ferocity is general is really bad compared to power. If they want to keep the ferocity it needs to be more ferocity than similar traits on other classes provide power/precision.

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@Quadox.7834 said:

@Xstein.2187 said:I don't really see how buffing sword would do very much in PvP (it would help PvE). The main reason for bringing sword is blurred frenzy to avoid damage. Fencer's Finesse would decrease the cool down from 10 sec to 8 sec. It also gives 15 ferocity when your illusion hit with a sword. However, in PvP you are probably only going to have an illusion hit like one time before is either shattered or killed by the enemy. This means the trait will prob give you an extra 1% critical hit damage (maaaayb 2% if it hits twice). Will a 2 sec reduced cool down on blurred frenzy and 1% critical hit damage ever be worth taking in PvP? I mean, this is kitten for PvP, isn't it? I just don't see how buffing sword will make the trait worth it to take. It would be worth it if you plan to bring offhand sword. However, I don't think that is going to happen.

Main reason for bringing sword is ambush. On core/chrono scepter is pretty much always better even on power atm.

Both sword 2 and 3 aren't that good. Blurred frenzy imo needs reduced hits but same damage (to deal with retal) and sword 3 needs improved reliability so the clone doesn't insta-die. Maybe add the ability to use sword 3 without target (as I think they did with elementalist magnetic leap).

Ya, I know it is brought for the ambush and the ambush is very useful. I just didn't bring it up because Fencer's Finesse obviously doesn't help with the sword ambush. Scepter power was nerfed, so I don't think power builds are going to bring scepter anymore. That was just a weird situation for awhile.

Edit: yeeesss, those are the changes that need to happen. I agree 100%. Everything you suggested is gold.

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While it doesn't help Evasive Mirror, I'd love getting rid of the Ferocity buff on the Sword trait and gaining the old reflect on (or after...) Sw#2 and #4 instead. One can dream.... :3

Sw#3 would be great if the sequence was swapped (dash/leap/blink, leaving behind a Clone you can swap to).

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There are several proposes on the other thread to get sword at a good level.BF to do 4 hits instead of 8 same damage same evade uptime. Sw clone to get some invuln time, Fencer's finesse to give passive power/prec increase instead of requiring 10 hits and give ferocity.Apart from sw ambush mobility sw is currently awful.Like I said in some thread maybe ranged shatter gs/staff will be used because all mainhands are bad.

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@Quadox.7834 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:EM cd change is a bit extreme. 566% CD increase all at once is a pretty insane nerf. Would rather have seen it bumped up no higher than 6 or 8, especially considering that mirror was removed from master of manipulation.

On paper it is 566% but in reality it is not even close to that much of a nerf, since it is limited by endurance anyway. But yeah it was a stupid change, it will just be unreliable and annoying to use.

Not quite. Evasive mirror works on evades, not dodging. While dodging is a huge source of evades, mesmers also get several skills that allow them to evade attacks, notably BF but also sword 4, both of which are on short CDs and can be traited even shorter with dueling. Mirage also gets another evade on axe on a 10sec CD untraited. Combined with vigor and strategically using your evade skills, you could have been proccing EM roughly every 3-4 seconds on average even over an extended fight. In a quicker fight, you could easily activate it 4-5 times in a row, right off its ICD each time.

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:There are several proposes on the other thread to get sword at a good level.BF to do 4 hits instead of 8 same damage same evade uptime. Sw clone to get some invuln time, Fencer's finesse to give passive power/prec increase instead of requiring 10 hits and give ferocity.Apart from sw ambush mobility sw is currently awful.Like I said in some thread maybe ranged shatter gs/staff will be used because all mainhands are bad.

Nah the mobility from sword ambush is way too important to go staff.

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@OriOri.8724 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:EM cd change is a bit extreme. 566% CD increase all at once is a pretty insane nerf. Would rather have seen it bumped up no higher than 6 or 8, especially considering that mirror was removed from master of manipulation.

On paper it is 566% but in reality it is not even close to that much of a nerf, since it is limited by endurance anyway. But yeah it was a stupid change, it will just be unreliable and annoying to use.

Not quite. Evasive mirror works on evades, not dodging. While dodging is a huge source of evades, mesmers also get several skills that allow them to evade attacks, notably BF but also sword 4, both of which are on short CDs and can be traited even shorter with dueling. Mirage also gets another evade on axe on a 10sec CD untraited. Combined with vigor and strategically using your evade skills, you could have been proccing EM roughly every 3-4 seconds on average even over an extended fight. In a quicker fight, you could easily activate it 4-5 times in a row, right off its ICD each time.

Sorry yeah that's true. I just wanted to point out that just saying 566% nerf could be a bit misleading (for example, raising cooldown of fury on crit or vigor on crit by 566% would be a much bigger relative nerf).

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I just meet a grenade burst scrapper today with me on a direct build with no blind/reflect, stealth alone is far to compensate when talking about survival when literraly everyone (gwenr class.) pop AOE CC and damage considering we haven't the same in/out melee efficiency than thieves.And a full range build with staff/GS isn't the best synergy with stealth survival.I highly doubt than the buff to PU and the change to master of manipulation will be enough to compensate the blind on shatter who is the main survival tool in majority of mesmers builds.

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Evasive Mirror nerf I get.

Blinding dissipation nerf after all the survivability nerfs (including Evasive Mirror in slot competition) will make power builds almost free in so many matchups, which I don’t think is fair given its level of effectiveness, even with diversion being a stun option again.

Mass invis long duration stealth burst might be mainstream again? But honestly I might as well go malicious backstab Deadeye, which is significantly safer, easier to land, and try again on whiffs.

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@Quadox.7834 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:EM cd change is a bit extreme. 566% CD increase all at once is a pretty insane nerf. Would rather have seen it bumped up no higher than 6 or 8, especially considering that mirror was removed from master of manipulation.

On paper it is 566% but in reality it is not even close to that much of a nerf, since it is limited by endurance anyway. But yeah it was a stupid change, it will just be unreliable and annoying to use.

Not quite. Evasive mirror works on evades, not dodging. While dodging is a huge source of evades, mesmers also get several skills that allow them to evade attacks, notably BF but also sword 4, both of which are on short CDs and can be traited even shorter with dueling. Mirage also gets another evade on axe on a 10sec CD untraited. Combined with vigor and strategically using your evade skills, you could have been proccing EM roughly every 3-4 seconds on average even over an extended fight. In a quicker fight, you could easily activate it 4-5 times in a row, right off its ICD each time.

Sorry yeah that's true. I just wanted to point out that just saying 566% nerf could be a bit misleading (for example, raising cooldown of fury on crit or vigor on crit by 566% would be a much bigger relative nerf).

I see where you're coming from, but its not misleading at all in my opinion. Mechanically, especially if you play an elite spec (mirage gets extra evade skills while chrono has alacrity and IA if you want to run it), you could pop EM off back to back multiple times in a row, while killing the opponent quickly, and effectively have the ICD be 1.5 seconds for the entire fight. Even on extended fights though, proccing it every ~3 seconds is sustainable for a pretty solid amount of time.

So I guess I will revise my original comment. Its a 566% nerf to the ICD when using it in a burst, but even over extended fights its still a 233% nerf to the ICD, which is still one of the largest nerfs this game has ever seen from a pure numbers perspective. It was way too heavy handed, and just adds yet another ICD to mentally keep track of as a mesmer if you wish to run the trait still. Which, taken together, means it was a piss poor nerf to the trait, and not the correct way to address it.

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@OriOri.8724 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:EM cd change is a bit extreme. 566% CD increase all at once is a pretty insane nerf. Would rather have seen it bumped up no higher than 6 or 8, especially considering that mirror was removed from master of manipulation.

On paper it is 566% but in reality it is not even close to that much of a nerf, since it is limited by endurance anyway. But yeah it was a stupid change, it will just be unreliable and annoying to use.

Not quite. Evasive mirror works on evades, not dodging. While dodging is a huge source of evades, mesmers also get several skills that allow them to evade attacks, notably BF but also sword 4, both of which are on short CDs and can be traited even shorter with dueling. Mirage also gets another evade on axe on a 10sec CD untraited. Combined with vigor and strategically using your evade skills, you could have been proccing EM roughly every 3-4 seconds on average even over an extended fight. In a quicker fight, you could easily activate it 4-5 times in a row, right off its ICD each time.

Sorry yeah that's true. I just wanted to point out that just saying 566% nerf could be a bit misleading (for example, raising cooldown of fury on crit or vigor on crit by 566% would be a much bigger relative nerf).

I see where you're coming from, but its not misleading at all in my opinion. Mechanically, especially if you play an elite spec (mirage gets extra evade skills while chrono has alacrity and IA if you want to run it), you could pop EM off back to back multiple times in a row, while killing the opponent quickly, and effectively have the ICD be 1.5 seconds for the entire fight. Even on extended fights though, proccing it every ~3 seconds is sustainable for a pretty solid amount of time.

So I guess I will revise my original comment. Its a 566% nerf to the ICD when using it in a burst, but even over extended fights its still a 233% nerf to the ICD, which is still one of the largest nerfs this game has ever seen from a pure numbers perspective. It was way too heavy handed, and just adds yet another ICD to mentally keep track of as a mesmer if you wish to run the trait still. Which, taken together, means it was a kitten poor nerf to the trait, and not the correct way to address it.

Agreed, generally dislike ICDs most of the time. Sadly it seems that PvP-motivated changes almost always come in the form of numerical tweaks.

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@treizebee.2091 said:Blinding Dissipation was a tool to counter aggressive melee builds - why remove this from power builds in order to give condition mesmers even more potential confusion generation for those who run ineptitude?

So was this a buff to condi builds or a nerf to both? I've heard both and read it as a nerf personally. Anyone know that can log in?

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@"EvilSardine.9635" said:The nerf is good. It actually makes mirage less brain dead to play. Good players will adapt and not rely on the crutch.

I'm looking forward to playing Mirage again. I stopped playing it because it felt like it had too much reward for too little risk.

How come killing the traits is good? don't we have enough dead traits? reworking things is good and okay, killing things and keeping them dead is not.

By the way, mirage is NEVER braindead ...

Also, good luck if you got some deadeye spamming you with rifle 2 while kneeling and some other is hitting you with some range weapon "unless they changed rifle 2 while kneeling which they probably didn't" (talking about wvw)

And side note already tried a build that had nothing to do with any of the patch changes, so now just gotta see how it works against the changes of others in patch :)

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@"EvilSardine.9635" said:The nerf is good. It actually makes mirage less brain dead to play. Good players will adapt and not rely on the crutch.

I'm looking forward to playing Mirage again. I stopped playing it because it felt like it had too much reward for too little risk.

Adapting is not the issue - we all adapt and continue to succeed just like with every change.

The issue is Anet continues to nuke overpowered things into irrelevance rather than making any attempt to balance them.

Only explanation is lack of resources (because the alternative is laziness/lack of imagination) - ie effectively "delete" overpowered things until having enough time to create meaningful balance. I'm sure they'll revisit things like this and Elusive Mind - whether its in the next 2 months or 2 years, depending on priorities and resource constraints.

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