Balance Changes Upcoming

[Marxx.5021]

Thank you for more regular balance updates. I think it is important to keep competitive game modes alive.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@"Methuselah.4376" said:Mesmers are still cancer in PvP even after last patch. The endless barrage of clones, target breaking, stealth, evades, invulnerability and then getting hit with massive damage while they're untouchable is ridiculous. So I don't much care for the boohoo mesmers crying their eyes out cause they got nerfed. Recognise the absurd advantages you have, have some maturity to admit it may be over the top and move on.

No offense, but you sound like you've never played a mesmer of any variety for a substantial amount of time, let alone recently, following the latest in nerfs targeting the profession in every balance update going back a year. Otherwise you probably wouldn't speak in such exaggerated hyperbole. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

As to being objective and honest about their profession's issues, including its excesses, even a casual perusal of the ample discussions on the subject reveals that with few exceptions, mesmer mains are some of the most forthcoming. They have routinely called for nerfs to broken items and suggested ways to improve balance regarding their profession.

Maybe come to grips with the fact that Arenanet designed a profession whose central theme is trickery and evasion, and "move on", whether you like it or not.

[Sassyonemeis.6251]

dude really?? you nerf daredevil for like the 8th time but you cant seem to nerf permastealth deadeye or condi mesmer at all? daredevil only has the second highest single target dps. second only to deadeye. and it takes like 10 people in wvw to kill a condi mes that only has a basic understanding of his class. and daredevils are virtually useless against them. why wouldnt you change condi mirage, or revenant or perma stealth deadeye. yall got issues with daredevils for some stupid reason.

[Methuselah.4376]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"Methuselah.4376" said:Mesmers are still cancer in PvP even after last patch. The endless barrage of clones, target breaking, stealth, evades, invulnerability and then getting hit with massive damage while they're untouchable is ridiculous. So I don't much care for the boohoo mesmers crying their eyes out cause they got nerfed. Recognise the absurd advantages you have, have some maturity to admit it may be over the top and move on.

No offense, but you sound like you've never played a mesmer of any variety for a substantial amount of time, let alone recently, following the latest in nerfs targeting the profession in every balance update going back a year. Otherwise you probably wouldn't speak in such exaggerated hyperbole. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

As to being objective and honest about their profession's issues, including its excesses, even a casual perusal of the ample discussions on the subject reveals that with few exceptions, mesmer mains are some of the most forthcoming. They have routinely called for nerfs to broken items and suggested ways to improve balance regarding their profession.

Maybe come to grips with the fact that Arenanet designed a profession whose central theme is trickery and evasion, and "move on", whether you like it or not.

Typically, the trickster is never able to bring high dps. Maybe I am wrong here. But I do concur with what another poster said in this thread; if mesmers want to bring high damage, sure thing and if they want to bring a build that makes them untouchable, fantastic. Just make it one or the other. Take Deadeye for example; yes they are irritating, and yes they have a lot of disengage abilities. But all is takes is that one CC to land and they're dead.

You are right, I never played mesmer extensively in pvp because it is not a play style I like. But I did play it enough to get my 10 victories for the legendary pvp backpack and even without knowing what I was doing, I was pretty much perma evading. And my critique of boohoo mesmers applies to this thread not the mesmer sub-forum.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Methuselah.4376 said:This is what most Scourge players went through when it first came out. I myself admit it was fun to melt teams in 3 seconds, but realised it was too much and accepted the nerfs gracefully.

This is complete nonsense. Necromancers are consistently some of the most pessimistic, miserable people who endlessly rant about their class being completely not viable in both PvE and Conquest.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:Mesmers are still cancer in PvP even after last patch. The endless barrage of clones, target breaking, stealth, evades, invulnerability and then getting hit with massive damage while they're untouchable is ridiculous. So I don't much care for the boohoo mesmers crying their eyes out cause they got nerfed. Recognise the absurd advantages you have, have some maturity to admit it may be over the top and move on.

No offense, but you sound like you've never played a mesmer of any variety for a substantial amount of time, let alone recently, following the latest in nerfs targeting the profession in every balance update going back a year. Otherwise you probably wouldn't speak in such exaggerated hyperbole. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

As to being objective and honest about their profession's issues, including its excesses, even a casual perusal of the ample discussions on the subject reveals that with few exceptions, mesmer mains are some of the most forthcoming. They have routinely called for nerfs to broken items and suggested ways to improve balance regarding their profession.

Maybe come to grips with the fact that Arenanet designed a profession whose central theme is trickery and evasion, and "move on", whether you like it or not.

Typically, the trickster is never able to bring high dps. Maybe I am wrong here. But I do concur with what another poster said in this thread; if mesmers want to bring high damage, sure thing and if they want to bring a build that makes them untouchable, fantastic. Just make it one or the other. Take Deadeye for example; yes they are irritating, and yes they have a lot of disengage abilities. But all is takes is that one CC to land and they're dead.

You are right, I never played mesmer extensively in pvp because it is not a play style I like. But I did play it enough to get my 10 victories for the legendary pvp backpack and even without knowing what I was doing, I was pretty much perma evading. And my critique of boohoo mesmers applies to this thread not the mesmer sub-forum.

It's not so much mesmer got nerfed, Scepter 3 clearly did too much power damage and barely any condition damage despite being a ranged condition weapon kit and needed to be reweighted. Evasive Mirror was just poorly designed and too passive of an ability. Those needed to change. The problem is that Chronobunk and Condimirage are just one part of a wider meta of classes that are all clearly over performing.

Holo somehow escape literally any nerfs two full patches in a row. Scrapper remains unkillable by all but three or so builds. Sic Em and Unstoppable Union untouched despite being one of the most toxic interactions in the game at this point. Spellbreakers are still outrunning Sonic the Hedgehog and spin attacking for way more damage. Revs are still revving it up and maybe we'll see Rev Bunkers now with the Ventari and Salvation changes. Elementalist, Necro, and guardian receive minor changes that won't really address much.

Spellbreaker, holosmith, scrapper, soulbeast, and rev currently dominate ranked. They are omnipresent in all games and alongside chronobunk ARE the meta. And all of them are problematic in very clear ways and need adjustments. Literally none of the meta builds received any nerfs except Chronobunk and Condi Mirage.

Everyone knows Sic Em Soulbeast does far too much damage and has too much access and too easy access to unblockable. Everyone knows Holosmith is no where near as high risk to play as it needs to be considering the top tier damage it gets out of Photon Forge. Everyone knows that it's weird that Spellbreaker, an elite specialization focused on counter attacking and removing your enemy's strengths like their boons, condition output, stealth, and projectiles, to be lobbing out 8k Whirlwind Blade and Arcing Slice crits and two-shotting people in Rampage is as well as blitzing across the map faster than any build aside from Thief. Everyone knows that it's not ideal for Revenant's best build, Glint+Shiro Herald, to be absolutely terrible in condition metas and straight up godly when it's a power meta. Literally no one likes fighting Scrappers.

All of these are omnipresent aspects of the meta. All of them deserve nerfs in some form. None of them received any nerfs. Everyone expected the Scepter and Evasive Mirror changes. But it is genuinely shocking nothing else meta in conquest was even touched.

[Methuselah.4376]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Methuselah.4376" said:This is what most Scourge players went through when it first came out. I myself admit it was fun to melt teams in 3 seconds, but realised it was too much and accepted the nerfs gracefully.

This is complete nonsense. Necromancers are consistently some of the most pessimistic, miserable people who endlessly rant about their class being completely not viable in both PvE and Conquest.

Oh definitely, you are right there! I am not one of them though or at least I try not to be. I think condi scourge is amazing at applying and spreading condis, I think heal scourge is super fun and has a good place in raid as off healer and even in T4s as main healer, and I think power reaper is awesome. I wouldn't mind seeing some numbers twiddled a bit, but overall I am not one of those twats that constantly bemoans everything, including saying an obvious buff is a nerf (which has happened EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. there was a very obvious buff, because it required some build change). I AM aware of necro's glaring lack of active defences, but I won't go around saying "OH WOE IS ME". But yes you are right, a lot of necro mains are overly pessimistic and cynical; some might argue with good reason but that's neither here nor there.

[Nimon.7840]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:This is what most Scourge players went through when it first came out. I myself admit it was fun to melt teams in 3 seconds, but realised it was too much and accepted the nerfs gracefully.

This is complete nonsense. Necromancers are consistently some of the most pessimistic, miserable people who endlessly rant about their class being completely not viable in both PvE and Conquest.

No. Necromancers don't rant about not being viable in pve an conquest

We rant about not being able to do anything solo in conquest while being not as good as all other classes in pve engame group content

Also yes. We complained about scourge nerfs. And I can only speak for myself here.I did as well. Not because the nerfs weren't necessary.They completely were.But because other classes didn't get tuned down as well, even though they were (and are) completely overpowered.

Looking at wvw here:Look at rev doing 5k and more autoattacks.If you want to do so much dmg as core necro, you have to have might and be in shroud which uses up, while rev can do it permanently, while also having access to even higher dmg skills (15k hammer2, 8k hammer5...)

Look at thief doing 18-20k vaults, while having dodge frames and therefore not being targetable, also having access to dagger storm which is a 4,5seconds evade while doing very good damage

Look at eles: even bigger aoe than necro has, hitting for 13k meteors, 6k autoattacks, also having lava font and other high dmg skills that easily hit for more than 6k

Not to mention firebrands insane support ability.

[Carnifex.3275]

Daredevil Steal 600 range? No ty. Uninstallin. Class is alrdy dead and u take it the next level further.

[Nimon.7840]

@Dave.6819 said:Daredevil Steal 600 range? No ty. Uninstallin. Class is alrdy dead and u take it the next level further.

Dead?Maybe you just don't know how to play it?Pve it's pretty good and wvw as well.

[Xar.6279]

Dont cry about Glyph of Empowerment. Now you will be able to use it everywhere you want. As elite skill. Without wasting your utility slots for it.

[Lazze.9870]

@Erasculio.2914 said:

@"kappa.2036" said:Speaking about "trade-offs"... where are the trade-offs on firebrand and chrono, for example? Firebrand gets 15 new skills just by choosing the spec, and also chrono gets the F5 without consequences. I don't understand honestly.

Keep in mind that ArenaNet used the Reaper as an example of a "trade-off": they lose Death Shroud and gain Reaper Shroud. So a Firebrand already has a trade-off: they lose access to the normal virtue activations, which are replaced by the tomes. The same applies to the Dragonhunter: the trade-off is losing access to the normal virtue activations.

You could argue that the tomes are better than the normal virtues, but, considering how the same line of thinking applies to Reaper Shroud vs Death Shroud, it appears that ArenaNet's rule is making a difference between mechanics that replace others and mechanics that simply add something new.

Chronomancers, for example, will probably gain some kind of drawback - right now, they only gain a new ability, without losing anything.

I wonder if any reapers or firebrands/dragonhunters miss their base F skills. I don't think they do. Ever. Not much of a trade off.

[Methuselah.4376]

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Erasculio.2914 said:

@"kappa.2036" said:Speaking about "trade-offs"... where are the trade-offs on firebrand and chrono, for example? Firebrand gets 15 new skills just by choosing the spec, and also chrono gets the F5 without consequences. I don't understand honestly.

Keep in mind that ArenaNet used the Reaper as an example of a "trade-off": they lose Death Shroud and gain Reaper Shroud. So a Firebrand already has a trade-off: they lose access to the normal virtue activations, which are replaced by the tomes. The same applies to the Dragonhunter: the trade-off is losing access to the normal virtue activations.

You could argue that the tomes are better than the normal virtues, but, considering how the same line of thinking applies to Reaper Shroud vs Death Shroud, it appears that ArenaNet's rule is making a difference between mechanics that replace others and mechanics that simply add something new.

Chronomancers, for example, will probably gain some kind of drawback - right now, they only gain a new ability, without losing anything.

I wonder if any reapers or firebrands/dragonhunters miss their base F skills. I don't think they do. Ever. Not much of a trade off.

I don't think that's the point they're trying to make. It's not a question of a mechanic being desirable or not but that it replaces or is replaced by something else depending on elite spec. Chrono simply adds another F skill to core F skills which it still has access to. Anet seems to be moving to the ideal that if you pick an elite, you do not have access to core special mechanics. Which might be a bit difficult to implement with elementalist I would imagine.

[Eleazar.9478]

Id be fine with pet nerfs on druid but could yall then revert some of the PVP nerfs youve done to old druid. Its kinda broing to play now.

ALSO FOR THE GAJILLION TIME CAN YALL HELP DAGGER BE GOOD IN PVP LIKE ITS BEEN 2 YEARS!!!

[Lazze.9870]

@DragonSlayer.1087 said:Nerf Unflinching Fortitude!immune to attacksremoves movement condisstun breakfor 35s CD!?

Make this a 90s CD or decrease the duration.

That's almost 3 times its current duration. You can start with 60, shave one second off the duration and see how it plays out. Ranger lost one of their sources of stability before PoF, and had its other source nerfed. If SB is supposed to act as some kind of bruiser in pvp modes, then you need to make incremental changes, and not butcher the tool it has.

And they already made one trade off to druid in this patch. Asking for another one when other classes still don't have any is hardly fair.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Erasculio.2914 said:

@"kappa.2036" said:Speaking about "trade-offs"... where are the trade-offs on firebrand and chrono, for example? Firebrand gets 15 new skills just by choosing the spec, and also chrono gets the F5 without consequences. I don't understand honestly.

Keep in mind that ArenaNet used the Reaper as an example of a "trade-off": they lose Death Shroud and gain Reaper Shroud. So a Firebrand already has a trade-off: they lose access to the normal virtue activations, which are replaced by the tomes. The same applies to the Dragonhunter: the trade-off is losing access to the normal virtue activations.

You could argue that the tomes are better than the normal virtues, but, considering how the same line of thinking applies to Reaper Shroud vs Death Shroud, it appears that ArenaNet's rule is making a difference between mechanics that replace others and mechanics that simply add something new.

Chronomancers, for example, will probably gain some kind of drawback - right now, they only gain a new ability, without losing anything.

I wonder if any reapers or firebrands/dragonhunters miss their base F skills. I don't think they do. Ever. Not much of a trade off.

Necromancers have had a several threads over the years about adding base shroud as F2 so yeah its missed. Core shroud with reaper GS, shouts and traits would be incredible.

I have also seen threads gone by about guards wanting a way to get their core virtues back DH came out.

Both of these be seen to be made in reaction to how these two classes clearly gave something up at a class mechanic level where as others didn't.

Both are god examples of how the elite spec system was described to work originally and do fundamentally change how you approach and play the classes instead if being class+.

[ASV.7819]

ArenaNet makes a big mistake if they are think their balance patch is good. There are no balance, useless features only and all changes offered by Anet is complete nonsense.ElementalistWhy did you reduce Lightning Whip attack range? Nobody played with dagger even with the old condition of this skill.MesmerAnother mesmer nerf. Next time just write here: “We have nerfed mesmer. Again”I agreed about Evasive Mirror trait, it’s need balance but not 6 times increased cooldown. Are you crazy or what?!!!! This trait now will be completely useless. Free kills for rangers, yolosmiths and deadeyes.You make mesmers weaker by reducing Confusing Images damage by 50%. Why we need to balance warriors gs2 if we can nerf mesmers?Changes of Confounding Suggestions will provoke a an explosion of mantra burst mesmers or shatterer mesmers and everyone will whine again: “nerf mesmer, nerf mesmer, mesmer is broken, mesmer are bad!!!”. Remember my words.Changes of Mass Invisibility and Master of Manipulations is fully useless.EngineerNo balance for yolosmith and scrapper. It seems you like this class more than others. Holosmith still broken zerker with broken damage, cc and quickness. I’m silent about scrappers in general, broken unkillable creep which need 2-3 players to kill. All changes is garbage.NecromancerYou destroy a decent trait Soul Eater depriving reapers of reduced gs cooldown. Reapers won’t say thanks to you. The other necromancer changes doesn’t makes me happy. Necromancers are slow and you make them more slower by halving duration of Locust Swarm.RangerYou throw druids a bone and don’t care about broken soulbeasts. Do you know that soulbeasts can freely resurrect their pets by entering Beastmode and leaving it. 2 seconds instead of 40! Fantastic! Wow! Can you fix it instead of making useless fictions? Also Unstoppable Union needs nerf because rangers can shoot you down from safe distance and ignore all of your defense.ThiefYou are literally doing the necromancy by trying to reanimate dead class. All changes have no balance.WarriorGs 2 is broken, Bull Charge too as well as Rampage. Maybe you will make short cooldown for the Lich Form and Tornado too? Like a counterweight for Rampage. Berserker changes doesn’t bode well. Probably you make another unbalanced perma zerker class like a scrapper from whom everyone will wail.RevenantIt is pleasant that you trying to make core revenant more viable and more supportive. But you forget about renegade which has a lot of bugs. Bloodbane Path doen’t works while target moving, Spiritcrush can be casted in front of you only, utility skills can be used only in the same level with revenant (u can’t cast it on box, or rock) and in a small radius.You have a lot of work to do (Sorry for the emotions but I was silent for long).

[Nimon.7840]

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Erasculio.2914 said:

@"kappa.2036" said:Speaking about "trade-offs"... where are the trade-offs on firebrand and chrono, for example? Firebrand gets 15 new skills just by choosing the spec, and also chrono gets the F5 without consequences. I don't understand honestly.

Keep in mind that ArenaNet used the Reaper as an example of a "trade-off": they lose Death Shroud and gain Reaper Shroud. So a Firebrand already has a trade-off: they lose access to the normal virtue activations, which are replaced by the tomes. The same applies to the Dragonhunter: the trade-off is losing access to the normal virtue activations.

You could argue that the tomes are better than the normal virtues, but, considering how the same line of thinking applies to Reaper Shroud vs Death Shroud, it appears that ArenaNet's rule is making a difference between mechanics that replace others and mechanics that simply add something new.

Chronomancers, for example, will probably gain some kind of drawback - right now, they only gain a new ability, without losing anything.

I wonder if any reapers or firebrands/dragonhunters miss their base F skills. I don't think they do. Ever. Not much of a trade off.

Reapers huge trade-off: loosing a lot of sustain. Mainly because of 5% degeneration and not having ranged attacks anymore

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Dave.6819 said:Daredevil Steal 600 range? No ty. Uninstallin. Class is alrdy dead and u take it the next level further.

Dead?Maybe you just don't know how to play it?Pve it's pretty good and wvw as well.

Nah it's pretty dead,played it almost 4 yrs,had to have learned somthing.we'll see how many play it 6 months from now lol I'm guessing u dont play it aswell?.

[VDAC.2137]

@Xar.6279 said:Dont cry about Glyph of Empowerment. Now you will be able to use it everywhere you want. As elite skill. Without wasting your utility slots for it.

No, it’s being removed entirely but the new Glyph of the Stars sounds cool.

[Methuselah.4376]

@ASV.7819 said:NecromancerYou destroy a decent trait Soul Eater depriving reapers of reduced gs cooldown. Reapers won’t say thanks to you. The other necromancer changes doesn’t makes me happy. Necromancers are slow and you make them more slower by halving duration of Locust Swarm.

While your concerns over Locust Swarm are valid (and they SHOULD reduce the CD at least), overall I am happy with Soul Eater. It is still a form of sustain + Dmg boost. As it stands now, the sustain you get from it is meaningless. CD on GS skills is somewhat of a concern in PvP, but honestly you should be aiming to switching weapons and go into shroud as much as possible to keep the enemy off balance.

[Skugga.5298]

I really hope that there is going to be more focus on balance.When I started GW2 at beta, the game was not balanced but at least it was way better than any other mmorpg.

I really wonder what happened with "Play the way you want to play".PvP is getting more and more frustrating, I'm tired of hearing meta this and meta that. You are always considered a 'noob' when you refuse to play meta and try to make a core build.Clearly I can see why, any core build became pretty much useless with the "elite" specs, God knows why you added that and also had to make them "elite".

What I miss is the good old stuff that worked so well and was so much fun.D/D ele, Firebow Warr, Dual pistol thief, etc, etc...I've never liked the new "elite" specs to be honest, I don't enjoy how they feel and play.

Weaver for example, I'm sorry but what is that all about, you need to stance dance like a maniac in order to achieve the same things another profession can do with 3 buttons...So many other minor frustrations about balance.

Can you please just get to the core of GW1 , what made PvP crazy fun in GW1 is that you had tons of skills and you were able to make the most crazy builds and they worked.Now the community forces you into a playstyle you don't like else you don't belong...Don't like to compare games with one another but it always was the same problem in WoW, they keep adding things but were never able to balance it.I know balance is hard to achieve but this game has several years under its belt and only got worse.

Don't want to sound too bitter, GW2 has a lot of good going on as well, but balance it not one of its best features.

[Xstein.2187]

I really appreciate the changes to mass invisibility and Master of Manipulations. There has been some long term anti-synergy for this trait causing mirror from master and manipulations to reveal you when using mass invisibility (a manipulation skill) for a long, long time now.

Thank You So Much for Taking the Time to Fix It!!

[GoodWithGravy.8019]

If trade-offs are being added to all elite specs - can we add some kind of positive side to balance the attunement nerfs that Weaver suffers?

Dual skills are generally average to poor, so they provide no benefit over the normal 3 slot skills, which become difficult to access. Baseline (adept minor) barrier application is a joke...

Do something like make both attunements count as the active attunement for other traits (still amazed this isn’t the case, are we double attuned or not?), revert arcane attunement to trigger on double attuning, etc

A lot of effort seems to be going in to making sure the changes never give Ele any viable PvP builds.

Also: Revert Ride the lightning, why did this not happen years ago?

[gladson.9130]

The Scepter nerfs on Mesmer are rather ridiculous!Confusing Images: The physical damage of this skill has been split and reduced by 50% in PvP and WvW. <<<<<< does not make sense!Hey A.Net what's happening?You are hypocrite.:/