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Upcoming balance patch changes - does ANet not know what to do with Guardian anymore?


mrauls.6519

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"otto.5684" said:It’s just random kitten from clueless devs. Do not try to logic with it, cuz there is none behind it.

Well, there is logic behind it ... they balance according to theme and what they want the class to do. It's not the logic you want to see, but that's what it is ... and it's always been that way as well, so expecting anything else is unreasonable.

What did any of the current balance changes have anything to do with any theme? What is the theme of mace that Anet is trying to achieve? Considering that mace has not seen changes in 3 years plus, what the fuck was Anet smoking during that time? Did the forget to address the the "theme" all that time (or performance or anything)?

Get the fuck out.

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Really? You can't see how mace is related to a theme on Guardian? You can't read the exact reason Anet gave for changing it? I don't even need to speculate here ... it's their words right in the patch notes why they changed it ... and if you can't see how that's related to the concept of the class, I'm pretty certain I can't explain it to you. This is just another example of pretending you don't see it because you don't want to believe what you are being told. Believe whatever you want, but I'm pretty certain like RI .. this is a change that's going to happen, it's related to the theme of the class and how it gives meaningful choices to players.

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@Obtena.7952 said:Really? You can't see how mace is related to a theme on Guardian? You can't read the exact reason Anet gave for changing it? I don't even need to speculate here ... it's their words right in the patch notes why they changed it ... and if you can't see how that's related to the concept of the class, I'm pretty certain I can't explain it to you. This is just another example of pretending you don't see it because you don't want to believe what you are being told. Believe whatever you want, but I'm pretty certain like RI .. this is a change that's going to happen, it's related to the theme of the class and how it gives meaningful choices to players.

!? Did you just read the top line from the overall balance change?! First, that had nothing to do with guardian or any of guardian elites whatsoever. Secondly, past performance of Anet did not substantiate that direction, but will see success with berserker and daredevil.

Guardian changes were all performance based of less used weapons. I am claiming that whoever made these changes to be incompetent. Cuz even though the changes are positive, and done with direction but without any measurement.

And the funny thing is that almost all the changes were copy paste of player suggestions on top threads currently on the class front page.

My position is calling Anet dev who performed guardian changes to be incompetent. I do not not give a flying fuck about what Anet “thinks.” I will call them out for Copy pasting easy stuff with little understanding and zero effort to address fundamental issues.

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@otto.5684 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Really? You can't see how mace is related to a theme on Guardian? You can't read the
exact
reason Anet gave for changing it? I don't even need to speculate here ... it's their words right in the patch notes why they changed it ... and if you can't see how that's related to the concept of the class, I'm pretty certain I can't explain it to you. This is just another example of pretending you don't see it because you don't want to believe what you are being told. Believe whatever you want, but I'm pretty certain like RI .. this is a change that's going to happen, it's related to the theme of the class and how it gives meaningful choices to players.

!? Did you just read the top line from the overall balance change?!

Seems to me you need to continue reading past the top line.

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@Balsa.3951 said:Most ppl on the forums begged for DH changes but I guess that’s perhaps next time. 6 months later :(

Thats why i play SWTOR now, much more fun than this. 10 patches in a row were nerfs. Dont expect them to balance anything than spirit weapons or signets :) cause nobody at anet play dps guard, only bot heal/support.

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I wish they had done more, but this patch provided a great glimpse into specialization balance, and I do think it is spot on. Everything about a specialization should be about trade offs.

Unless the core profession is solid though the specialization will be a massive buff (see the last two expansions). Tweaking and updating the core is a start for an eventual big update. Look at warrior and banners and the complete rework of core Mesmer.

Little changes pave the way for bigger changes, and hopefully more identity, most likely for Dragonhunter.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I've had a theory for awhile: Anet doesn't balance Guardian. They balance around Guardian. I think that Anet is using the Guardian's capabilities as a basic reference, and then changes other classes around it.

That does not seem to be the case at all. I am not going to sit here and compare none FB builds with other meta effective builds cuz that is a waste of time. The gap is so fucking huge as it currently stands and none of these builds were even remotely nerfed.

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@otto.5684 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I've had a theory for awhile: Anet doesn't balance Guardian. They balance
around
Guardian. I think that Anet is using the Guardian's capabilities as a basic reference, and then changes other classes around it.

That does not seem to be the case at all. I am not going to sit here and compare none FB builds with other meta effective builds cuz that is a waste of time. The gap is so kitten huge as it currently stands and none of these builds were even remotely nerfed.

"Guardians are in a good place" was so oft repeated that it became a nihilistic meme. For years, every other balance patch would lead the Guardian section with "We think Guardians are in a good place." If anything, Firebrands are the recent exception to what has been a general trend.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I've had a theory for awhile: Anet doesn't balance Guardian. They balance
around
Guardian. I think that Anet is using the Guardian's capabilities as a basic reference, and then changes other classes around it.

That does not seem to be the case at all. I am not going to sit here and compare none FB builds with other meta effective builds cuz that is a waste of time. The gap is so kitten huge as it currently stands and none of these builds were even remotely nerfed.

"Guardians are in a good place" was so oft repeated that it became a nihilistic meme. For years, every other balance patch would lead the Guardian section with "We think Guardians are in a good place." If anything, Firebrands are the recent exception to what has been a general trend.

That may have been true in the past, but last 2 balance patches nerfed all none FB builds significantly. Like cutting overall performance by 20%-25%. Guardian is the most nerfed class (except mirage) in the last 12 month. And it was not even top meta.

Also, no one at any point in the last two years though DH was in a good place.

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@otto.5684 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I've had a theory for awhile: Anet doesn't balance Guardian. They balance
around
Guardian. I think that Anet is using the Guardian's capabilities as a basic reference, and then changes other classes around it.

That does not seem to be the case at all. I am not going to sit here and compare none FB builds with other meta effective builds cuz that is a waste of time. The gap is so kitten huge as it currently stands and none of these builds were even remotely nerfed.

"Guardians are in a good place" was so oft repeated that it became a nihilistic meme. For years, every other balance patch would lead the Guardian section with "We think Guardians are in a good place." If anything, Firebrands are the recent exception to what has been a general trend.

That may have been true in the past, but last 2 balance patches nerfed all none FB builds significantly. Like cutting overall performance by 20%-25%. Guardian is the most nerfed class (except mirage) in the last 12 month. And it was not even top meta.

Also, no one at any point in the last two years though DH was in a good place.

Dh was and is meta in pve. And FB is meta for tournament pvp. WvW is dominated by firebrands. Saying outlandish things about state of guardian doesnt help the profession in the long run

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I've had a theory for awhile: Anet doesn't balance Guardian. They balance
around
Guardian. I think that Anet is using the Guardian's capabilities as a basic reference, and then changes other classes around it.

That does not seem to be the case at all. I am not going to sit here and compare none FB builds with other meta effective builds cuz that is a waste of time. The gap is so kitten huge as it currently stands and none of these builds were even remotely nerfed.

"Guardians are in a good place" was so oft repeated that it became a nihilistic meme. For years, every other balance patch would lead the Guardian section with "We think Guardians are in a good place." If anything, Firebrands are the recent exception to what has been a general trend.

Agreed ... that's why we get token changes most the time ... Anet likes how the class works for the most part. A few exceptions to that do not disprove it as a valid hypothesis.

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@kasoki.5180 said:Dh was and is meta in pve.In what format of PvE are you talking about? Open World? Because almost any build has reasonable ability to work there. Fractals? If your talking about T4 or more accurately T4 CM you have got to be kidding me while you might not get auto kicked I sure don't see anybody requesting DH and in Raids we are passable but we sure aren't winning any awards.

And FB is meta for tournament pvp.Again where are you seeing this, we are ridiculously out performed on the support side(which is all we really have for competitive play now) since they nerfed the FB down in the last few patches and even more so since they Buffed up the Scrapper so much.

WvW is dominated by firebrands.Ok this at least is reasonable accurate

Saying outlandish things about state of guardian doesnt help the profession in the long run

Just because a particular build is listed on Metabuild does not in anyway mean it is dominating overall in any way all that is showing you is this is the best build that has been found for this class irrespective of the relative strength or weakness of that particular class against the whole host of other classes and their builds that are out there. This is something that to many players seem to do. I'm still waiting to hear as to how many players that can consistently hold Platinum tier 2 or above while running Guardian (or any of its Elites) consistently and not Duo qued while doing, I'm not saying it can't be done but I am certain that it will be a much smaller percentage than all most all of the other classes by comparison.

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@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:

@kasoki.5180 said:Dh was and is meta in pve.In what format of PvE are you talking about? Open World? Because almost any build has reasonable ability to work there. Fractals? If your talking about T4 or more accurately T4 CM you have got to be kidding me while you might not get auto kicked I sure don't see anybody requesting DH and in Raids we are passable but we sure aren't winning any awards.

And FB is meta for tournament pvp.Again where are you seeing this, we are ridiculously out performed on the support side(which is all we really have for competitive play now) since they nerfed the FB down in the last few patches and even more so since they Buffed up the Scrapper so much.

WvW is dominated by firebrands.Ok this at least is reasonable accurate

Saying outlandish things about state of guardian doesnt help the profession in the long run

Just because a particular build is listed on Metabuild does not in anyway mean it is dominating overall in any way all that is showing you is this is the best build that has been found for this class irrespective of the relative strength or weakness of that particular class against the whole host of other classes and their builds that are out there. This is something that to many players seem to do. I'm still waiting to hear as to how many players that can consistently hold Platinum tier 2 or above while running Guardian (or any of its Elites) consistently and not Duo qued while doing, I'm not saying it can't be done but I am certain that it will be a much smaller percentage than all most all of the other classes by comparison.

Wat.

Burst is king in fractal CMs and what's what DH excels at. You want bosses to phase as quickly as possible.

I usually play Healbrand in CMs and T4s nowadays but when I do go DH I can usually pull 28k, on for example, CM99 MAMA. Just because you run with shitty DHs doesnt completely invalidate the profession.

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@kasoki.5180 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I've had a theory for awhile: Anet doesn't balance Guardian. They balance
around
Guardian. I think that Anet is using the Guardian's capabilities as a basic reference, and then changes other classes around it.

That does not seem to be the case at all. I am not going to sit here and compare none FB builds with other meta effective builds cuz that is a waste of time. The gap is so kitten huge as it currently stands and none of these builds were even remotely nerfed.

"Guardians are in a good place" was so oft repeated that it became a nihilistic meme. For years, every other balance patch would lead the Guardian section with "We think Guardians are in a good place." If anything, Firebrands are the recent exception to what has been a general trend.

That may have been true in the past, but last 2 balance patches nerfed all none FB builds significantly. Like cutting overall performance by 20%-25%. Guardian is the most nerfed class (except mirage) in the last 12 month. And it was not even top meta.

Also, no one at any point in the last two years though DH was in a good place.

Dh was and is meta in pve. And FB is meta for tournament pvp. WvW is dominated by firebrands. Saying outlandish things about state of guardian doesnt help the profession in the long run

You are correct. My post was not clear. I was only posting regarding PvP and excluding FB.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 End game PvE is not my thing, but I am pretty certain that DH and FB are fine. DH can dish a ridiculous amount of damage, in AOE and in a very short period of time. And it’s damage remains fairly strong afterwards. This does not translate in PvP whatsoever, but PvE wise it is surely in a decent place.

Also, I won’t say FB dominates PvP, but it is surely up there. FB support in sPvP is top 3 meta build (if not number 1).

The issue is all PvP builds that do not include both FB and healing power are mediocre at best. And core is outclassed every where (though this is not a guardian exclusive problem).

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DH is always welcome in fractals and i dont think i have ever seen a fractal run without at least one DH. On raids same thing. All pages place DH as meta. I have never heard anyone saying they have a problem with dragonhunter. I hate to say this but if people have problem with DH in the group they are the problem not DH. Its either that or DH in the group is superbad.

I dont play tournaments but whenever i am watching casting of tournaments FB is frequently played. I usually twitch stream dellusionalelitists. And FB is almost always in casted matches

Also FB and Rene outperform chrono+druid in fractals atm.

Also meta sites are not showing you just the best build for the professions. They are showing you top builds for a certain content. Both metabattle and snowcrows quite clearly tell you sonin the explanations

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We already have several ways to renew justice, personally i would like to have Protector's Strike renew one of the other virtues instead. slotting invigorating bulwark and running virtues makes this new change lackluster.

as a core honor-valor-virtue guardian, using virtues is often a waste for me, as a passive permeating wrath is better than a burst in most cases.Meby this is crazy talk, but i would like a core revision of the virtue system.

make them passive toggles, that have a self-group mode and when one is toggled to group, the other two are reduced in efficiency.make them similar to facets, there have been many great ideas posted on the forums over the years.

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@otto.5684 said:Right-Hand Strength: This trait no longer gives a flat critical-hit chance. Instead it gives an additional 80 precision, plus an additional 80 power while wielding a one-handed weapon.

Critical Chance increases by 1% for every 21 Precision. So, all condi builds in all game modes roughly lost 10% critic chance for 80 power. This is probably a bigger nerf to FB in PvE than last balance patch buff (dunno if that was intended). Also, no one, under any condition, uses this trait with a power builds, and all 2 handed weapons (except staff, support) are power builds so...I had to laugh here, since I run a power DH and use this trait. And before the accusations of "noob" start, I have been playing fractals since they came out and regularly run T4 with a static guild group. Anecdotal data, I know, but assertions that no one, under any condition, uses this trait with a power builds are built on a vacuum of data since only Anet can tell us how many people have a particular traitor trait combinations actually equipped.

@otto.5684 said:Also, OH, you mean torch 4 throw? This is the only skill this impacts, since none of the other OH weapons are used in PvE.aaaaand the same here. Wide sweeping statements like this are really pointless since they cannot be based off of any player accessible documentation. Perhaps if you were to say there are no other OH weapons that are meta, then we have a reasonable starting point for conversation. Hyperbole isn't terribly helpful however.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Along with the hit to Right Handed Strength did anyone else notice the bonus to Pack Alpha where it now also gives an additional 150 points to Condition Damage when it already gave that to Power, Precision, Toughness and Vitality which of course then rolls right over to the Soul Beast when they are bonded I mean REALLY!!!! This is a Adept Minor trait its giving 750 points over all and there isn't a time limit or a boon they have to keep up like with our Imbued Haste and there they did a split between PvE and PvP/WvW but they don't even blink an eye over buffing Soulbeast which is already abusively overpowered when you look at how often they can use Unblockable attacks.I find this post highly ironic given the overall ranger/SB antagonism in the WvW community.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/71429/wvw-commanders-guilds-kicking-non-meta-classes/p1So which is it? Are they OP? Or are they so worthless that nobody should play them in WvW? If you read that entire thread (probably not worth it) you will definitely see that sentiment presented there by some.

Since this is a guardian related thread I will stop there in hopes of not derailing the conversation too much.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:

@kasoki.5180 said:Dh was and is meta in pve.In what format of PvE are you talking about? Open World? Because almost any build has reasonable ability to work there. Fractals? If your talking about T4 or more accurately T4 CM you have got to be kidding me while you might not get auto kicked I sure don't see anybody requesting DH and in Raids we are passable but we sure aren't winning any awards.As I mentioned earlier, I run DH in T4 fractals with a static group and we have no problems whatsoever. I realize that is not the same thing as pugging fractals, but lets be honest, pugging fractals can almost as toxic an environment as pugging raids or apparently trying to play SB in a WvW squad.

Just because a particular build is listed on Metabuild does not in anyway mean it is dominating overall in any way all that is showing you is this is the best build that has been found for this class irrespective of the relative strength or weakness of that particular class against the whole host of other classes and their builds that are out there.This I wholeheartedly agree with!

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@Moira Shalaar.5620 said:

Right-Hand Strength: This trait no longer gives a flat critical-hit chance. Instead it gives an additional 80 precision, plus an additional 80 power while wielding a one-handed weapon.

Critical Chance increases by 1% for every 21 Precision. So, all condi builds in all game modes roughly lost 10% critic chance for 80 power. This is probably a bigger nerf to FB in PvE than last balance patch buff (dunno if that was intended).
Also, no one, under any condition, uses this trait with a power builds
, and all 2 handed weapons (except staff, support) are power builds so...I had to laugh here, since I run a power DH and use this trait. And before the accusations of "noob" start, I have been playing fractals since they came out and regularly run T4 with a static guild group. Anecdotal data, I know, but assertions that
no one, under any condition, uses this trait with a power builds
are built on a vacuum of data since only Anet can tell us how many people have a particular traitor trait combinations actually equipped.

@otto.5684 said:Also, OH, you mean torch 4 throw? This is the only skill this impacts, since none of the other OH weapons are used in PvE.aaaaand the same here. Wide sweeping statements like this are really pointless since they cannot be based off of any player accessible documentation. Perhaps if you were to say there are no other OH weapons that are meta, then we have a reasonable starting point for conversation. Hyperbole isn't terribly helpful however.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Along with the hit to Right Handed Strength did anyone else notice the bonus to Pack Alpha where it now also gives an additional 150 points to Condition Damage when it already gave that to Power, Precision, Toughness and Vitality which of course then rolls right over to the Soul Beast when they are bonded I mean REALLY!!!! This is a Adept Minor trait its giving 750 points over all and there isn't a time limit or a boon they have to keep up like with our Imbued Haste and there they did a split between PvE and PvP/WvW but they don't even blink an eye over buffing Soulbeast which is already abusively overpowered when you look at how often they can use Unblockable attacks.I find this post highly ironic given the overall ranger/SB antagonism in the WvW community.
So which is it? Are they OP? Or are they so worthless that nobody should play them in WvW? If you read that entire thread (probably not worth it) you will definitely see that sentiment presented there by some.

Since this is a guardian related thread I will stop there in hopes of not derailing the conversation too much.

@kasoki.5180 said:Dh was and is meta in pve.In what format of PvE are you talking about? Open World? Because almost any build has reasonable ability to work there. Fractals? If your talking about T4 or more accurately T4 CM you have got to be kidding me while you might not get auto kicked I sure don't see anybody requesting DH and in Raids we are passable but we sure aren't winning any awards.As I mentioned earlier, I run DH in T4 fractals with a static group and we have no problems whatsoever. I realize that is not the same thing as pugging fractals, but lets be honest, pugging fractals can almost as toxic an environment as pugging raids or apparently trying to play SB in a WvW squad.

Just because a particular build is listed on Metabuild does not in anyway mean it is dominating overall in any way all that is showing you is this is the best build that has been found for this class irrespective of the relative strength or weakness of that particular class against the whole host of other classes and their builds that are out there.This I wholeheartedly agree with!

Mmm.. just cuz you decide to put a random trait in a random build does not mean anything. Builds are provided but what provides the most benefit for your role. You electively gimping yourself (even if it is not significant enough to impact performance adversely) is not basis for anything.

And I do not want to shatter your bubble, but clearing PvE content is not a measure of skill level or indication of detailed understanding in the game. Not the these are precursors for posting on the forums. But please do not hit me with “I am a highly skilled player” then tell me you do fractals.

Also, you electively quoted me on the OH weapons, while intentionally (or not) did not include that I was specifically talking about condi build. Feel free to use shield or focus, as using wrong traits.

Bottom line is you putting lacking the competence necessary to understand why specific traits/weapons/skills are used in specific context, does not have any value, unless you can mathematically or mechanically proof the setup is ideal. I used a skill in specific content and it worked has zero value and is not valid argument for.. anything.

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@"otto.5684" said:Mmm.. just cuz you decide to put a random trait in a random build does not mean anything. Builds are provided but what provides the most benefit for your role. You electively gimping yourself (even if it is not significant enough to impact performance adversely) is not basis for anything.You seem to have missed my point entirely. I was commenting on the use of hyperbole on the basis of no data. Yes my use of weapons & traits of which you disapprove is anecdotal. No, I don't expect you to approve of them, nor do I in some way need your approval of my builds for them to accomplish what I use them for.

And I do not want to shatter your bubble, but clearing PvE content is not a measure of skill level or indication of detailed understanding in the game. Not the these are precursors for posting on the forums. But please do not hit me with “I am a highly skilled player” then tell me you do fractals.I do not identify myself as a "highly skilled player", simply not inexperienced.

Also, you electively quoted me on the OH weapons, while intentionally (or not) did not include that I was specifically talking about condi build. Feel free to use shield or focus, as using wrong traits.See my first point about hyperbole and declaring what people do and do not use without providing any source of data. This had nothing to do with selectively quoting you other than trying to save space.

Bottom line is you putting lacking the competence necessary to understand why specific traits/weapons/skills are used in specific context, does not have any value, unless you can mathematically or mechanically proof the setup is ideal. I used a skill in specific content and it worked has zero value and is not valid argument for.. anything.Are you familiar with Ad Hominem?

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