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What tradeoff would you like to see?


Jora.5471

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Elite specializations were introduced with the Heart of Thorns™ expansion and have become a regular sight throughout Tyria. These specializations have sometimes come with trade-offs, and sometimes they've been purely beneficial compared to a core specialization, often because they add something on top of everything the profession already does. We believe that elite specializations are a more meaningful choice when they have some trade-off or change some core part of a profession's mechanics.

To use the example of necromancer, by choosing an elite specialization, you lose access to your core Death Shroud abilities, but you gain different abilities. This is a clear trade-off. In the case of elite specializations like druid, herald, chronomancer, berserker, or scrapper, this type of trade-off isn't possible because the specialization adds a completely new ability. With this update, we're targeting a few elite specializations to receive trade-offs, and we expect to continue doing this in future updates. As for general changes, we've made a few consistency updates to aura naming and introduced dark auras to the game. We also changed a number of abilities that would destroy missiles, making them block missiles instead.

The new balance patch is going to introduce tradeoff so that there is a reason to go for core profession instead of elite specialization being the best.

My ideas:

  • Elementalist- All attunement cooldown is reduced to 1 second(All traits that benefits from attunement swapping gets a cooldown).
  • Engineer- Scrappers can no longer use Elite Toolbelt(F5) from Elite Skills. Instead, Function Gyro is now a F5 active skill that Scrappers can use to summon. All Adept Major traits are all replaced with a way to personalize Function Gyro like how Renegade Adept trait personalize Kalla's Fervor.
  • Guardian- No tradeoff needed as all the F skills in all specialization are different from each other. Although I would like to see core guardian Fskills to have an ammo system to make it more interesting.
  • Mesmer- Gets a F5 skill that summons a clone. I don't find this interesting so probably someone can make a better idea. It is the most mesmer-thing I could think of that isn't chronomancer or Mirage.
  • Necromancer- No tradeoff needed.
  • Ranger- Since Druid is getting a trade off where pets are weaker, I don't need to talk about that. I would like to see Soulbeast tradeoff to be the complete removal of the pet and it would turn into the passive buffs we have. This would mean that a lot of traits will have to be reworked completely. So, if that is not possible, I would like to see Ranger having stronger pets.
  • Revenant- Getting a trade off and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
  • Thief- Daredevil is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
  • Warrior- Berserker is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
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About Soulbeast, one way could be the pet is nerfed by 20% when it’s out and not merged, but then when merged the stats are as is now. In PvE this would make a minimal disadvantage because you stay merged almost 100% of the time. This would cause an effect in pvp and wvw, however, since Soulbeast frequently unmerge and swap pets, and they’re not always merged.

Straight up removing the pet would not be a good idea, because at that points it’s straight up removing the base class mechanic, which I don’t think Anet is aiming for. Plus as you mentioned, the large rework of traits that would need to happen to do so.

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@AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:About Soulbeast, one way could be the pet is nerfed by 20% when it’s out and not merged, but then when merged the stats are as is now. In PvE this would make a minimal disadvantage because you stay merged almost 100% of the time. This would cause an effect in pvp and wvw, however, since Soulbeast frequently unmerge and swap pets, and they’re not always merged.

Straight up removing the pet would not be a good idea, because at that points it’s straight up removing the base class mechanic, which I don’t think Anet is aiming for. Plus as you mentioned, the large rework of traits that would need to happen to do so.

I rather not Soulbeast pet get a 20% nerf. Its boring and not really a trade-off since Soulbeast don't use pets anyways as they would be better off in beastmode.

Instead of the two, Soulbeast can now only use one pet instead of two is a better tradeoff. This way, the only traits that will be affected will be the pet swapping traits. Then the pet swap traits procs from entering and leaving beastmode. If the pet dies, it will resurrect itself after 60 seconds.

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Completely undo all the turret nerfs and that for just a start. Engineer elites give up nothing because core engineer no matter what it tries to do is in the gutter when compared to Holo and Scrapper. How do we even have this conversation when core was gutted and what was lost was either given to other professions (Revenant) or rebranded and locked behind pay/expansion walls in the new elites?

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For soulbeast I would like to see that beastmode replaces petswap.You would benefit from swap traits but no longer could you run a survival pet and a powerhouse.You basically specialist into a pet and lose versatility.

Soulbeast still would be strong but they couldn't pair stealth and CC from an SS with the mobility and heals of an owl.And in PvE it would actually improve gameplay and would ease the going out if beastmode drawback because you would get benefits from swap traits.

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@Me Games Ma.8426 said:For Mesmer I'd like to see one of these:

  • F5 ability that summons two new phantasms not depending on the weapon carried.
  • F5 shatter: Destroy all clones and stealth for 1/2/3/4s
  • Passive ability that increases clone hp.

The stealth one is actually pretty neat idea.If it would proc on team members (maybe with trait) would make it especially nice.It would empower core mesmer in competitive modes and increase their survivability and utility in the whole game.PvE wise this wouldn't have that high of an impact but atleast it would be nice to have to skip mobs.

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@"runeblade.7514" said:The new balance patch is going to introduce tradeoff so that there is a reason to go for core profession instead of elite specialization being the best.

My ideas:

  • Elementalist- All attunement cooldown is reduced to 1 second(All traits that benefits from attunement swapping gets a cooldown).
  • Engineer- Scrappers can no longer use Elite Toolbelt(F5) from Elite Skills. Instead, Function Gyro is now a F5 active skill that Scrappers can use to summon. All Adept Major traits are all replaced with a way to personalize Function Gyro like how Renegade Adept trait personalize Kalla's Fervor.
  • Guardian- No tradeoff needed as all the F skills in all specialization are different from each other. Although I would like to see core guardian Fskills to have an ammo system to make it more interesting.
  • Mesmer- Gets a F5 skill that summons a clone. I don't find this interesting so probably someone can make a better idea. It is the most mesmer-thing I could think of that isn't chronomancer or Mirage.
  • Necromancer- No tradeoff needed.
  • Ranger- Since Druid is getting a trade off where pets are weaker, I don't need to talk about that. I would like to see Soulbeast tradeoff to be the complete removal of the pet and it would turn into the passive buffs we have. This would mean that a lot of traits will have to be reworked completely. So, if that is not possible, I would like to see Ranger having stronger pets.
  • Revenant- Getting a trade off and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
  • Thief- Daredevil is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
  • Warrior- Berserker is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.

So:

  • Guardian: already has tradeoffs
  • Revenant: already deal with in the incoming patch
  • Warrior: already deal with in the incoming patch
  • Thief: already deal with in the incoming patch
  • Necromancer: already has tradeoffs

The only specializations left to discuss are:

  • Engineer: Scrapper
  • Ranger: Soulbeast
  • Elementalist: Tempest
  • Mesmer: Chronomancer

I would suggest:

  • Scrapper: I like the OP's idea of losing access to the elite tool belt skill
  • Soulbeast: those probably deserve the Revenant treatment, like the OP said, making the pets stronger but only for the core ranger
  • Tempest: the recharge of the attunements is increased, even without using Overcharge
  • Chronomancer: cannot spread boons to allies
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@InsaneQR.7412 said:For soulbeast I would like to see that beastmode replaces petswap.You would benefit from swap traits but no longer could you run a survival pet and a powerhouse.You basically specialist into a pet and lose versatility.

Soulbeast still would be strong but they couldn't pair stealth and CC from an SS with the mobility and heals of an owl.And in PvE it would actually improve gameplay and would ease the going out if beastmode drawback because you would get benefits from swap traits.

So complete removal of pet but they get Beastmode swap? I like this idea. That would cut down the number of traits that needs to be reworked significantly if it doesn't cut down all of them.

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@"runeblade.7514" said:

Elite specializations were introduced with the Heart of Thorns™ expansion and have become a regular sight throughout Tyria. These specializations have sometimes come with trade-offs, and sometimes they've been purely beneficial compared to a core specialization, often because they add something on top of everything the profession already does. We believe that elite specializations are a more meaningful choice when they have some trade-off or change some core part of a profession's mechanics.

To use the example of necromancer, by choosing an elite specialization, you lose access to your core Death Shroud abilities, but you gain different abilities. This is a clear trade-off. In the case of elite specializations like druid, herald, chronomancer, berserker, or scrapper, this type of trade-off isn't possible because the specialization adds a completely new ability. With this update, we're targeting a few elite specializations to receive trade-offs, and we expect to continue doing this in future updates. As for general changes, we've made a few consistency updates to aura naming and introduced dark auras to the game. We also changed a number of abilities that would destroy missiles, making them block missiles instead.

The new balance patch is going to introduce tradeoff so that there is a reason to go for core profession instead of elite specialization being the best.

My ideas:
  • Elementalist- All attunement cooldown is reduced to 1 second(All traits that benefits from attunement swapping gets a cooldown).
  • Engineer- Scrappers can no longer use Elite Toolbelt(F5) from Elite Skills. Instead,
    is now a F5 active skill that Scrappers can use to summon. All Adept Major traits are all replaced with a way to personalize Function Gyro like how Renegade Adept trait personalize Kalla's Fervor.
  • Guardian- No tradeoff needed as all the F skills in all specialization are different from each other. Although I would like to see core guardian Fskills to have an ammo system to make it more interesting.
  • Mesmer- Gets a F5 skill that summons a clone. I don't find this interesting so probably someone can make a better idea. It is the most mesmer-thing I could think of that isn't chronomancer or Mirage.
  • Necromancer- No tradeoff needed.
  • Ranger- Since Druid is getting a trade off where pets are weaker, I don't need to talk about that. I would like to see Soulbeast tradeoff to be the complete removal of the pet and it would turn into the passive buffs we have. This would mean that a lot of traits will have to be reworked completely. So, if that is not possible, I would like to see Ranger having stronger pets.
  • Revenant- Getting a trade off and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
  • Thief- Daredevil is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
  • Warrior- Berserker is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.

If I know Arenanet, Continuum Split is almost certainly going to replace Distortion entirely as an F4 instead of being an F5. Mirage Cloak already loses the ability to dodge away or to the side at full speed without wasting evade frames turning. Maybe do something similar, give it back its old 1s evade window or a 1.25 evade window with Mirage Cloak in exchange for losing distortion.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"runeblade.7514" said:

Elite specializations were introduced with the Heart of Thorns™ expansion and have become a regular sight throughout Tyria. These specializations have sometimes come with trade-offs, and sometimes they've been purely beneficial compared to a core specialization, often because they add something on top of everything the profession already does. We believe that elite specializations are a more meaningful choice when they have some trade-off or change some core part of a profession's mechanics.

To use the example of necromancer, by choosing an elite specialization, you lose access to your core Death Shroud abilities, but you gain different abilities. This is a clear trade-off. In the case of elite specializations like druid, herald, chronomancer, berserker, or scrapper, this type of trade-off isn't possible because the specialization adds a completely new ability. With this update, we're targeting a few elite specializations to receive trade-offs, and we expect to continue doing this in future updates. As for general changes, we've made a few consistency updates to aura naming and introduced dark auras to the game. We also changed a number of abilities that would destroy missiles, making them block missiles instead.

The new balance patch is going to introduce tradeoff so that there is a reason to go for core profession instead of elite specialization being the best.

My ideas:
  • Elementalist- All attunement cooldown is reduced to 1 second(All traits that benefits from attunement swapping gets a cooldown).
  • Engineer- Scrappers can no longer use Elite Toolbelt(F5) from Elite Skills. Instead,
    is now a F5 active skill that Scrappers can use to summon. All Adept Major traits are all replaced with a way to personalize Function Gyro like how Renegade Adept trait personalize Kalla's Fervor.
  • Guardian- No tradeoff needed as all the F skills in all specialization are different from each other. Although I would like to see core guardian Fskills to have an ammo system to make it more interesting.
  • Mesmer- Gets a F5 skill that summons a clone. I don't find this interesting so probably someone can make a better idea. It is the most mesmer-thing I could think of that isn't chronomancer or Mirage.
  • Necromancer- No tradeoff needed.
  • Ranger- Since Druid is getting a trade off where pets are weaker, I don't need to talk about that. I would like to see Soulbeast tradeoff to be the complete removal of the pet and it would turn into the passive buffs we have. This would mean that a lot of traits will have to be reworked completely. So, if that is not possible, I would like to see Ranger having stronger pets.
  • Revenant- Getting a trade off and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
  • Thief- Daredevil is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
  • Warrior- Berserker is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.

If I know Arenanet, Continuum Split is almost certainly going to replace Distortion entirely as an F4 instead of being an F5. Mirage Cloak already loses the ability to dodge away or to the side at full speed without wasting evade frames turning. Maybe do something similar, give it back its old 1s evade window or a 1.25 evade window with Mirage Cloak in exchange for losing distortion.

While it would be fair from a mesmer vs chrono. It wouldn't be fair to a chrono vs. Mirage as Mirage gets to keep distortion.

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@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Me Games Ma.8426 said:For Mesmer I'd like to see one of these:
  • F5 ability that summons two new phantasms not depending on the weapon carried.
  • F5 shatter: Destroy all clones and stealth for 1/2/3/4s
  • Passive ability that increases clone hp.

The stealth one is actually pretty neat idea.If it would proc on team members (maybe with trait) would make it especially nice.It would empower core mesmer in competitive modes and increase their survivability and utility in the whole game.PvE wise this wouldn't have that high of an impact but atleast it would be nice to have to skip mobs.

That F5 stealth idea gave me PU mesmers flashbacks from way back then.

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@runeblade.7514 said:

@Me Games Ma.8426 said:For Mesmer I'd like to see one of these:
  • F5 ability that summons two new phantasms not depending on the weapon carried.
  • F5 shatter: Destroy all clones and stealth for 1/2/3/4s
  • Passive ability that increases clone hp.

The stealth one is actually pretty neat idea.If it would proc on team members (maybe with trait) would make it especially nice.It would empower core mesmer in competitive modes and increase their survivability and utility in the whole game.PvE wise this wouldn't have that high of an impact but atleast it would be nice to have to skip mobs.

That F5 stealth idea gave me PU mesmers flashbacks from way back then.

Hehehe I'm already hyped for my core mesmer PU roaming build which is getting buffed this patch :)

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I think Mesmer getting a f5 wouldn't be bad (like stealth idea) but what about if the elite specs got 1 less clone output slot. (yes some numbers for shatter traits on chrono might need tweaking but it would make the other specs less focused on spam and they both have very strong mechanics)

soul beast I would prefer they have access to one pet like their soul split between the two entities.

scrapper gyro only really useful in pvp, it not a very powerful extra mechanic.(if It was going have a drawback I would go with removing the cd on gyro and making it cost endurance to use)holo needs a drawback to holo mode because it very powerful for trading in 1 f5 skill for 5 uber skills. maybe make the holo take more damage at higher heat threshold's 3%,6%,9%

Elementalist a tricky one I wouldn't want it to have lower cd on swapping just promotes quicker skill spam rotating.maybe it be better to just give drawbacks to the other two.

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@Nightmare.1234 said:I think Mesmer getting a f5 wouldn't be bad (like stealth idea) but what about if the elite specs got 1 less clone output slot. (yes some numbers for shatter traits on chrono might need tweaking but it would make the other specs less focused on spam and they both have very strong mechanics)

soul beast I would prefer they have access to one pet like their soul split between the two entities.

scrapper gyro only really useful in pvp, it not a very powerful extra mechanic.(if It was going have a drawback I would go with removing the cd on gyro and making it cost endurance to use)holo needs a drawback to holo mode because it very powerful for trading in 1 f5 skill for 5 uber skills. maybe make the holo take more damage at higher heat threshold's 3%,6%,9%

Elementalist a tricky one I wouldn't want it to have lower cd on swapping just promotes quicker skill spam rotating.maybe it be better to just give drawbacks to the other two.

Ele already has its drawbacks in place. Weaver has the heaviest drawbacks an elite spec has ever seen. Restricting access to important #3 weapon skills, and delaying access to #4 and #5 weapon skills which are usually critical for defense. The spec also gives a cd to every attunement when you do a swap, unlike core ele where only the attunement you swapped from goes on cd.

Tempest's drawback is less obvious, but it's still there. When you use an overload your attunement goes on 20 seconds cd. This becomes even worse when you consider that they are the most interruptible skills ever with a 4 second cast time, while still giving you the full 20 second cd even on interrupt. Now you can obviously argue that overloads are merely a free addition of tempest and that you can choose not to use them with no drawback. However, this notion is incorrect because every single minor trait in the tempest line involves overloading. By not overloading you are making your minors pointless. At that point you are better off traiting core. Since that makes it preferable to trait core in some situations, it is definitely a drawback.

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@Ganathar.4956 said:

@Nightmare.1234 said:I think Mesmer getting a f5 wouldn't be bad (like stealth idea) but what about if the elite specs got 1 less clone output slot. (yes some numbers for shatter traits on chrono might need tweaking but it would make the other specs less focused on spam and they both have very strong mechanics)

soul beast I would prefer they have access to one pet like their soul split between the two entities.

scrapper gyro only really useful in pvp, it not a very powerful extra mechanic.(if It was going have a drawback I would go with removing the cd on gyro and making it cost endurance to use)holo needs a drawback to holo mode because it very powerful for trading in 1 f5 skill for 5 uber skills. maybe make the holo take more damage at higher heat threshold's 3%,6%,9%

Elementalist a tricky one I wouldn't want it to have lower cd on swapping just promotes quicker skill spam rotating.maybe it be better to just give drawbacks to the other two.

Ele already has its drawbacks in place. Weaver has the heaviest drawbacks an elite spec has ever seen. Restricting access to important #3 weapon skills, and delaying access to #4 and #5 weapon skills which are usually critical for defense. The spec also gives a cd to every attunement when you do a swap, unlike core ele where only the attunement you swapped from goes on cd.

Tempest's drawback is less obvious, but it's still there. When you use an overload your attunement goes on 20 seconds cd. This becomes even worse when you consider that they are the most interruptible skills ever with a 4 second cast time, while still giving you the full 20 second cd even on interrupt. Now you can obviously argue that overloads are merely a free addition of tempest and that you can choose not to use them with no drawback. However, this notion is incorrect because every single minor trait in the tempest line involves overloading. By not overloading you are making your minors pointless. At that point you are better off traiting core. Since that makes it preferable to trait core in some situations, it is definitely a drawback.

point made, ele the only class I don't have or will never really play (confuses the heck out of me and I cant multi task lol) that's why I don't really have any opinions on the class. maybe it just better left alone, it one of them classes that gets better as others get nerfs.

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i don't see ele getting a new trade-off since since both mechanics makes attunment swapping slower and soulbeast looses their pet when they merge (which is also a trade-off)

also i think it's more likely that continuum split will take the place of an other shatter skill rather then give mesmer a new f5 (and definitely not a stealth skill) or maybe they're reworking some stuff.

function gyro is probably gonna get a rework (tho i don't such a trait rework happen)

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@derd.6413 said:i don't see ele getting a new trade-off since since both mechanics makes attunment swapping slower and soulbeast looses their pet when they merge (which is also a trade-off)

also i think it's more likely that continuum split will take the place of an other shatter skill rather then give mesmer a new f5 (and definitely not a stealth skill) or maybe they're reworking some stuff.

function gyro is probably gonna get a rework (tho i don't such a trait rework happen)

Soulbeast gets another skill bar and higher stats without traits, that's nothing for ele. Also, SB can still not merge, they may as well merge and instantly become 2 for healing. If you have to compare specs this way then ele is already lacking. Shades are most likely the best example of what overloads should/could have been.

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@Auburner.6945 said:

@derd.6413 said:i don't see ele getting a new trade-off since since both mechanics makes attunment swapping slower and soulbeast looses their pet when they merge (which is also a trade-off)

also i think it's more likely that continuum split will take the place of an other shatter skill rather then give mesmer a new f5 (and definitely not a stealth skill) or maybe they're reworking some stuff.

function gyro is probably gonna get a rework (tho i don't such a trait rework happen)

Soulbeast gets another skill bar and higher stats without traits, that's nothing for ele. Also, SB can still not merge, they may as well merge and instantly become 2 for healing. If you have to compare specs this way then ele is already lacking. Shades are most likely the best example of what overloads should/could have been.

soulbeast doesn't get the merging benefits when their pet is out. yes, the numbers need adjusting but there is a trade-off present.and if SB really requires an aditional trade-off it's probably gonna be at worst the removal of pet swap rather then pets entirely

also if you think shades would be good for ele overload i fear you're gonna be extremely disappointed. (cuz they're not)

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Giving Avian pets the Swoop ability is a huge part of what removed the trade off of playing Soulbeast.

Prior to this change (which was a long while back now), you could play core Ranger with Skirmishing and Quick Draw to have greater mobility and lower cooldowns as well as higher crit chance. After the change, it's pretty much a flat upgrade to play Soulbeast because you have equally as much mobility via Swoop from the pet + either Greatsword or 1h Sword leaps and more damage from various traits and buffs.

Although there are other things besides this that are an issue between Ranger and Soulbeast, I think from a WvW/PvP perspective, this is definitely one of the problems. "Sic 'Em!" is another big offender that I'm astonished hasn't been nerfed yet. Reducing the effect to only grant 5 - 10% increase in damage for the Soulbeast while merged would be a great start.

Boon sharing between merging is also an issue but it can be achieved with core Ranger as well. It's just more difficult to maintain.

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@derd.6413 said:

@derd.6413 said:i don't see ele getting a new trade-off since since both mechanics makes attunment swapping slower and soulbeast looses their pet when they merge (which is also a trade-off)

also i think it's more likely that continuum split will take the place of an other shatter skill rather then give mesmer a new f5 (and definitely not a stealth skill) or maybe they're reworking some stuff.

function gyro is probably gonna get a rework (tho i don't such a trait rework happen)

Soulbeast gets another skill bar and higher stats without traits, that's nothing for ele. Also, SB can still not merge, they may as well merge and instantly become 2 for healing. If you have to compare specs this way then ele is already lacking. Shades are most likely the best example of what overloads should/could have been.

soulbeast doesn't get the merging benefits when their pet is out. yes, the numbers need adjusting but there is a trade-off present.and if SB really requires an aditional trade-off it's probably gonna be at worst the removal of pet swap rather then pets entirely

also if you think shades would be good for ele overload i fear you're gonna be extremely disappointed. (cuz they're not)

Weaver barely gets anything as a trade-off, it's actually a disadvantage, the dual attacks, the reason why d/d weaver struggles to make it. This is the worst spec to have ever been released.

Tempest's overloads should've been like shades in terms of 900 range drop AoEs, the reason why Scourge is a thing in WvW as it would get blasted in seconds. If overloads had a 2-3s channeling time but a targeted ground AoE, things would've been better.

For soulbeast, they can still abuse the spec mechanic to heal pets, the thing that they should've traded-off.

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@InsaneQR.7412 said:For soulbeast I would like to see that beastmode replaces petswap.You would benefit from swap traits but no longer could you run a survival pet and a powerhouse.You basically specialist into a pet and lose versatility.

Soulbeast still would be strong but they couldn't pair stealth and CC from an SS with the mobility and heals of an owl.And in PvE it would actually improve gameplay and would ease the going out if beastmode drawback because you would get benefits from swap traits.

This is honestly the only acceptable drawback they could add to Soulbeast imo, and it should’ve been how it was from the start. Especially since the whole thematic of Soulbeast is that you’re so bonded with your pet you can merge to become one, makes no sense that you’d be able to be THAT close to multiple animals at one time.

Would also fix like all the main balance issues with Soulbeast (no reason to leave beast mode in PvE, too much utility in PvE, clumsiness of 2 pets and no pet swapbin beast mode etc)

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