Thief Balance changes coming!

[Exitus.3297]

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Maybe it is because my brain isn't working right now, but a lot of these changes seem random and stupid.

First, I see absolutely no value in making Steal unblockable. Alone it does nothing, being wholly inconsequential. The damage from Mug is paltry, as is the poison from Deadly Arts. It cannot be used to seal the deal on a kill, or provide meaningful offense in the face of sequential invulnerability skills. The daze from trickery isn't of much value, either, because you aren't interrupting a meaningful skill with it. At most, you're interrupting a channeled invulnerability skill, which you can just wait out because the enemy isn't doing damage to you anyway. Does the effect of hidden thief actually mis-fire when blocked? I legitimately don't know. Last I checked, RNG granting aegis to a mesmer is a fringe case scenario not really worth prepping against. The main benefit to Steal is that it was a movement skill, and without that movement you might as well not have it.

Over here in Revenant land, when Shiro gives us "unblockable" it persists for the next few attacks. I'll follow up Phase Traversal with Death strike and friggen wreck face. Now, if the new steal made the next few attacks unblockable, then it would be valuable. But it doesn't so the benefit of the skill is trivial at best.

Second, where the hell do all of these traits go? It is hard to judge the effectiveness of any of these traits when their placement is incredibly vague. I'm guessing that the new adept tier is this:

Brawler's TenacityEscapist AbsolutionMarauder's Resilience

The first thing I notice is that this is a damage nerf, since PVE DDs no longer get a damage boosting trait in low tier.. No more havoc + staff mastery.. So that's a 7% reduction in overall DPS as well as a DPS reduction in the staff attacks. Why? No discernible reason. Also, these traits are redundant. They all increase defense, but the only one worth anything is Escapist Absolution in PVP, because it is the only one that cleanses conditions.

Marauder's Resilience is a prime example of a trait that was poorly thought out. First, the vitality bonus gained from power is negligible. At 2500 resting power, you'll get 1750 health. This is not a significant amount of health. DD is still dead in a single Rapid Fire or Deathstrike. This is less health than the now uncleansed burn is going to take from you. The -10% damage reduction at close range seems like it might be good, but it really isn't. See, these traits work well on other classes because they have a lot of sustain, a lot of barrier, and a lot of health. Thief doesn't. Being in 360 range means that you'll be under constant melee onslaught, and even with the 1750 health and 10% reduction in damage the Thief still has the lowest DPS X Effective Health product in the game. Everybody else STILL beats you just by chasing you down and auto attacking. In PVE, it won't be taken over Browler's Tenacity, because BT actually increases DPS, while still giving about 1500 extra health by reducing Channeled Vigor's cooldown.

The new Havoc Mastery is stupid. It commits the same mistake that the old Staff Mastery makes, and it also now competes directly with the new staff mastery. I mean the really old staff mastery, which didn't do anything before you were low on endurance. Staff mastery will be taken in all game modes, because a consistent boost is going to be better than an inconsistent boost that contradicts conservative play.

The only thing that doesn't seem to be either useless or a nerf is the change to Weakening Strikes. On the one hand, it is only half as good now, since the weakness uptime has changed from 50% to 30%, and it requires blowing a dodge instead of working immediately with no further investment whatsoever. On the other hand, it is now essentially given free to Daredevils. Does this compensate for all the nerfs Daredevil just received? No, it does not.

This is not correct. I urge you and everyone to go look at what the new Weakening Strikes does carefully:

"This trait has been moved from the Adept tier into the Minor Master tier and has had its functionality changed. This trait will now cause the daredevil's next strike after dodging to weaken enemies. This weakening effect can be applied to multiple targets at once if the skill used is an area-of-effect skill. Reduced the weakness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Increased the damage dealt to weakened foes by 7%, and reduced damage taken from foes by 10%.

I am going to make this as clear as possible so others understand:

1) All of the damage modifiers from the old Daredevil spec are still there and can still be achieved at the same time. The old 7% boost from Havoc Mastery has been implemented into the new Weakening Strikes, where as long as the target has Weakness, you do 7% more damage AND take 10% less damage from them. That means the new Weakening Strikes breaks even with the old Havoc Mastery while also adding a defensive mechanic to it.

2) The new Weakening Strikes "requiring to blow a dodge for 30% uptime" is assuming that it is the only source of Weakness in the Thief's entire kit, completely ignoring that Staff 2 spams Weakness, Deadly Arts (Lotus Poison) also applies Weakness, and now dodging also applies Weakness. In PvE, there is absolutely 0 reason your target shouldn't have Weakness on them 100% of the time when you are beating them to a pulp. Especially in groups.

3) Because they combined the 7% damage from Havoc Mastery into Weakening Strikes, this opens up a new trait option for Staff Daredevils in PvE, specifically in the Adept row, such as Brawler's Tenacity which they had to give up before. Now Staff Daredevils can opt for Brawler's Tenacity whereas before they had to give it up for the 7% damage boost from Havoc Mastery, which they now get for free on Weakened foes. That means more uses of Fist Flurry as well as Channeled Vigor (if you decided to take it), which is a clear damage boost.

4) The only real "nerf" for the traits themselves is the new Staff Mastery granting flat Power instead of a 10% modifier. If you are really that worried about it, get the new Havoc Mastery instead, which will grant a 15% damage boost as long as you don't have enough endurance to dodge at all, and a 10% damage boost if you have room for at least 1 dodge.

To be quite frank, these changes actually seem like ANet put a lot of thought into it... Until I understood what Swipe was. Making the new "Swipe" 600 range is a really questionable change and making it unblockable doesn't make it any better.

[Elxdark.9702]

if you going for 600 range steal then at least make it 3s unblockable for all attacks, kinda like rev.

[Xenji.4907]

@"Exitus.3297" said:To be quite frank, these changes actually seem like ANet put a lot of thought into it... Until I understood what Swipe was. Making the new "Swipe" 600 range is a really questionable change and making it unblockable doesn't make it any better.

I hope it will be 900 instead of 600. OR what I heard is that they might/should reduce the CD on swipe by half as well.

If they want a duelist and not a chaser then let us have more time to fight and sustain. My idea is for the new Escapist's Absolution should give protection or something so we can brawl better instead of heal or have both. My opinion...

[Safandula.8723]

@Elxdark.9702 said:if you going for 600 range steal then at least make it 3s unblockable for all attacks, kinda like rev.

iv read rev notes first, and than i understood that new steal works like that. i was actually pretty excited

[babazhook.6805]

So just so I wont sound like a ranter i will put it up close up to you so you can see what i am mad about.1st range of Steal we all talked about it no need to explain2nd They moved condi removal on dodge to Adept tier which means we are either going to choose condi removal + healing on dodge which will take a lot of the damage from us since we wont be able to pick Havoc Mastery cuz being out of dodges to gain 30% dmg is something you will figure out is not quite working well for you. (dont forget Exhaustion) AND if we will pick this new trait we wont be having Brawlers Tenicity which was rewarding using Physical skills with endurance. It might seem petty but that thing saves lives. And if we wont take the condi removal that was keeping us alive from mesmers necros eles holos rangers and guards we wont survive majority of encounters with just dodges that will do nothing now.3rd The change to Repeater is so dumb only a 3yo might think that it actually will get used. Check the skill pleasedmg 5x 5505stacs of bleed for 4secrange 900physical projectileNo normal person would not equip a secondary weapon that would give him either Shadow shot or even unload to get this petty dmging skill that isnt good neither for power nor for condi purposes. That is one condi that gets cleaned out with a swap of a finger and you are loosing ability to dodge on your attack 3 so if anyone sees you having this on they will overexaggerated term you to the ground like last years christmass tree.4th They talk about trade offs but we wont actually get anything that would help us. They nerfed Staff to the very bottom any staff DD will not recover from this. Second they havent buff any condi and the power buffs that are supposedly there are srsly stupid you will not survive anything condi based with this. A core warior with carrion gear and a double swords will kill you and i am willing to prove that after the patch if anyone is interested.5th i finally came back to game to play my fav class Thief that has been hit more over by nerfs and bs liek this above and second patch comming after i return is thisLIKEI would srsly smack that guy who did this over the face until he would figure out what the kitten did he do wrong and fixed it

The new repeater in a DE build will increase malice build significantly. The use of Shadowstrike/repeater/repeater should get 5 mailce in a single iteration quite easily. In a Hybrid 7 malice is well within reach. For 9 mana you get the potential for 10 bleed 4 torment in a Condition build plus the power damage. Very usable.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The first thing I notice is that this is a damage nerf, since PVE DDs no longer get a damage boosting trait in low tier.. No more havoc + staff mastery.. So that's a 7% reduction in overall DPS as well as a DPS reduction in the staff attacks. Why? No discernible reason. Also, these traits are redundant. They all increase defense, but the only one worth anything is Escapist Absolution in PVP, because it is the only one that cleanses conditions.

You are misreading that, it's actually a 10% damage buff in an ideal scenario. The +7% from Havoc Mastery is moving to the new version of Weakening Strikes that is becoming a minor which you get for free now essentially. The new Havoc Specialist Master trait can give +15% extra damage as opposed to the +5% from Staff Master that is getting removed. Staff Master is gaining stats but I think a +10-15% more damage from Havoc Specialist is more valuable than that Power from SM.

There we go. I knew I was missing something.

My biggest problem with Havoc Mastery is that it conflicts with everything else that the DD does. If you use channeled vigor, DPS drops. If you use the new Swipe, DPS drops. If you cleanse with the signet, DPS drops. If you take Brawlers Tenacity, DPS drops. In a clinical scenario, the 15% damage increase seems like it might be good, but against something other than a DPS golem it poses a problem. There are bosses out there that require every single dodge to stay alive, and running Havoc Mastery at maximum is going to get players killed. If you have to use weapon dodges, then you lose weakness uptime and DPS drops again.

The new staff mastery is pretty good. 240 power is nothing to scoff at. It's basically a 9% boost on its own for berserker sets. After might it is a 7% boost. Not only does this boost never leave, but you also get more endurance for using skills, which translates into better defenses.

[Jack Redline.5379]

@saerni.2584 said:@Jack Redline.5379

Repeater will get used because if you are playing P/D you often find yourself using Shadowstrike.

On Deadeye, sometimes a Dancing Dagger will easily be avoided or just not hit. Shadowstrike, however, lets you follow up with a channeled skill to build malice. Unlike Dancing Dagger, Repeater tracks the target and also has a longer Chanel than a single dodge.

By making it cheaper, Anet made gave Repeater better synergy with the Deadeye stealth on stolen skills. This is actually a good buff despite my personal issue with how long the flip skill is available for.

Given that they are trying to give the elite specializations trade offs this trend may give Daredevils over time better sustain abilities. It might not be there yet so providing feedback after the patch will be crucial. Keep in mind that some other professions are being adjusted in this patch and other elite specs may follow in the near future (with new changes made based on feedback to previous elite specialization adjustments).

only trade off is they want us to play DE so badly they have massacred entire class with utmost BS that buffed DE and screwed up core thief and niw even Dd this is absolutely unacceptable approach and if anyone here has a bit of decency swap class dont play DE

[Exitus.3297]

@Xenji.4907 said:

@"Exitus.3297" said:To be quite frank, these changes actually seem like ANet put a lot of thought into it... Until I understood what Swipe was. Making the new "Swipe" 600 range is a really questionable change and making it unblockable doesn't make it any better.

I hope it will be 900 instead of 600. OR what I heard is that they might/should reduce the CD on swipe by half as well.

If they want a duelist and not a chaser then let us have more time to fight and sustain. My idea is for the new

Escapist's Absolution

should give protection or something so we can brawl better instead of heal or have both. My opinion...

Even if they did that, my concern is that they still aren't putting enough thought into. IMHO they should hold off on the Swipe change altogether until they get something more coherent that fits with the Daredevil theme. (I'm about to go on a rant so beware of wall of text).

Deadeye's Mark sacrifices a Shadowstep completely with the benefit of an increased range and the ability to reset on a kill. Despite the complete removal of the Shadowstep (and therefore less mobility), players understand and accept this tradeoff because it makes sense for the specialization that is intended to be ranged (mostly). Most elite specializations gain either an additional class skill/mechanic that makes a meaningful impact on the class without replacing the old class skill/mechanic (e.g. Druids gain Celestial Avatar, Berserkers had Primal Bursts in addition to regular ones, etc.) or they get completely new class skills replacing their old ones that may change or add to the class to make them different (e.g. Dragonhunter, Reaper, Deadeye, etc.). Daredevils, and then eventually Mirages, were always the weirdos of the bunch because they received changes to their dodge mechanics instead of their class mechanics. Or, rather, their dodge mechanics became their class mechanics.

I understand if ANet wants to make Daredevil stand out more by changing their class skill to fit with the mold of other Elite specializations changing their class skills, even though nobody asked for it. The problem I have is that the changes they are making to "Swipe" are completely arbitrary and shallow. Deadeye's Mark makes a significant impact on how the Thief plays. Dragonhunter Virtues make a significant impact on what the Guardian can do, at least when it comes to their Virtues. All they literally did with Swipe was nerf the range by half then justify it by making it unblockable. It just tells the playerbase that they are only changing the skill purely for balance purposes (and nothing else), while pretending that they are adding anything meaningful to the class when the reality is that they are just nerfing them. Even if they were to reduce the cooldown by half to make it a net buff in fights, it will not change the fact that it is an arbitrary change they didn't put a lot of thought into.

If they want to make Swipe less like an unblockable Steal with a nerfed range, they need to do more. There is a litany of mechanics they could add to it. They could add a second cast to Swipe that if it successfully landed, they could cast it again within a certain time frame and shadowstep to the initial target or even a new target(not necessarily a second Swipe), making them bounce around like a weirdo even with a reduced 600 range. Maybe that second cast could also be an attack, like making a "poof" animation and sucker-punching the target (maybe making an animation similar to the second part of Fist Flurry). Maybe instead of a second cast they could simply put an attack on it that functions differently when used from stealth. Maybe they simply add a 3rd class slot (an F3) that does who-knows-what. They could even simply leave it alone because maybe the change in how their dodges work was enough. I'm just spitballing here, so don't take any of the suggestions too seriously. My point is that the current projected changes they are making are arbitrary and only serve to nerf the Daredevil's mobility.

[babazhook.6805]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@saerni.2584 said:@Jack Redline.5379

Repeater will get used because if you are playing P/D you often find yourself using Shadowstrike.

On Deadeye, sometimes a Dancing Dagger will easily be avoided or just not hit. Shadowstrike, however, lets you follow up with a channeled skill to build malice. Unlike Dancing Dagger, Repeater tracks the target and also has a longer Chanel than a single dodge.

By making it cheaper, Anet made gave Repeater better synergy with the Deadeye stealth on stolen skills. This is actually a good buff despite my personal issue with how long the flip skill is available for.

Given that they are trying to give the elite specializations trade offs this trend may give Daredevils over time better sustain abilities. It might not be there yet so providing feedback after the patch will be crucial. Keep in mind that some other professions are being adjusted in this patch and other elite specs may follow in the near future (with new changes made based on feedback to previous elite specialization adjustments).

only trade off is they want us to play DE so badly they have massacred entire class with utmost BS that buffed DE and screwed up core thief and niw even Dd this is absolutely unacceptable approach and if anyone here has a bit of decency swap class dont play DE

Prior to the DE release I was playing Core p/d dropping the Daredevil line as I did not feel it offered enough punch in the way of damage . P/d core now is in a better spot than that build was. There now more torment and bleeds available.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

What a surprise.the patch notes change nothing.if arenanet want to make a thief spec a viable 1v1 they need to make preparedness baseline,piggyback some boons on steal traits to DA and CS traitlines that way a thief player has the option to sacrifice some utility etc to gain dps so they can make a viable 1v1 build.arena net needs to actually play thief for a bit and not listen to community non thief player whiners,they dont play the class and are posting most times out of biased dislike for the class.its like arenet initially wanted thief to be fast and deadly which seems legit but tuned them down to much due to whiners.d/p DD even weaker now due to swipe BS.wasnt viable before due to be ming inifective against the sustain and dps other classes have these days especially considering it's own sustain and that's not changing anytime soon.the repeater addition is flavorful but that's it and not somthing that actually adds effectiveness.theif needs significant dps buff since it's a agile low sustain character. A low sustain class needs to take its opponent down fast but than whiners make post and the dps gets lowered it kilks the class and its builds.the dd changes are not enough and will make it a worse +1 class and a garbage 1v1 class.have fun with s/d for another year,tried out ESO and yeah combats not quite as giod but literally everything else is so much better,nightblade even after recent nerfs feels like a decent rogue class unlike this garbage version.plus getting sick of three day bans just for criticizing thier game so least moderators dont need to bother any more lmao.

[Bossun.2046]

these NERFS are not good at all. the steal range is practically forcing staff on us. Why force their elite spec weapon on them? DD and DE will now need to play with their elite spec weapon. the skill changes are heading in the wrong direction while seemingly focusing in the wrong things from the spec. The wrong ones stayed....

best EU teef on changes: https://clips.twitch.tv/TsundereEntertainingManateeVoHiYo

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@"Bossun.2046" said:these NERFS are not good at all. the steal range is practically forcing staff on us. Why force their elite spec weapon on them? DD and DE will now need to play with their elite spec weapon. the skill changes are heading in the wrong direction while seemingly focusing in the wrong things from the spec. The wrong ones stayed....

best EU teef on changes: https://clips.twitch.tv/TsundereEntertainingManateeVoHiYo

is that it?

[Warkind.6745]

Would've been cool if they'd given swipe different synergies with trickery. Could opt to take something other than boon steal.

600 range in a world of soulbeasts is just bad.

[reddie.5861]

well for moi who plays perma staff DD all i see is boost boost boost, beside steal but who cares i got buffed buffed!so i can pop some healing armor now and just dodge dodge dodge and be full health all the time cus i pretty much evade whole blob in WvW should be +50*450hp? :D

no on serious side why they changed steal? :( but still i got buffed!staff for me was fine as it was i never used channeled vigor so couldnt careless that other 2 traits got buffed always using withdraw

[DemonSeed.3528]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

only trade off is they want us to play DE so badly they have massacred entire class with utmost BS that buffed DE and screwed up core thief and niw even Dd this is absolutely unacceptable approach and if anyone here has a bit of decency swap class dont play DE

Don't worry, I don't think many are using de atm.

[kuteykathy.8123]

@Exitus.3297 said:

Combining Escapist's Absolution and Driven Fortitude into Escapist's Fortitude in the Adept row will significantly boost its value. So in this row, Thieves are going to have to decide between taking 10% less damage from Melee attackers (and a small health boost), Condi Cleanse and Healing on a dodge for ~450 without Healing Power, or 20% reduced cooldown on Physical Skills with a 10 Endurance return. Looking at them on the surface, both of the new Traits outshine Brawler's Tenacity by quite a bit unless the Daredevil is running more than one physical skill and isn't too worried about conditions or sustain.

My main struggle now D: I'm running 4 Physical skills (Channeled Vigor, Impairing Daggers, Bandit's Defense, Impact Strike) on my bar. Brawler's Tenacity was such a great trait for the cooldown reductions and little bit of extra endurance, but not having the condi cleanse on evade would also be a risky decision for me in WvW... :'(

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

only trade off is they want us to play DE so badly they have massacred entire class with utmost BS that buffed DE and screwed up core thief and niw even Dd this is absolutely unacceptable approach and if anyone here has a bit of decency swap class dont play DE

Don't worry, I don't think many are using de atm.

They nerfed DE since the rework as well with the stealth on dodge change, rifle 3 costing 6 ini and DJ no longer unblockable, so it's not like DE avoided the nerf hammer either to be fair.

[DemonSeed.3528]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:They nerfed DE since the rework as well with the stealth on dodge change, rifle 3 costing 6 ini and DJ no longer unblockable, so it's not like DE avoided the nerf hammer either to be fair.

I think that 1s is too little especially with no compensation either. It was already neutered and relegated to fighting in areas without watchtowers [certain de rifle builds] and it lost all its sauce as well. I only see like maybe 1-2 de a day if I am lucky per matchup. The nerfs it received kind of spilled over so overall everything kind of got tainted. The rest of thieves I see in wvw are ddevs or core. Tbh running rifle de is more of a bane to ones self atm unless you run in a small groups. SA rifle de is to be avoided like the plague.

[babazhook.6805]

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:They nerfed DE since the rework as well with the stealth on dodge change, rifle 3 costing 6 ini and DJ no longer unblockable, so it's not like DE avoided the nerf hammer either to be fair.

I think that 1s is too little especially with no compensation either. It was already neutered and relegated to fighting in areas without watchtowers [certain de rifle builds] and it lost all its sauce as well. I only see like maybe 1-2 de a day if I am lucky per matchup. The nerfs it received kind of spilled over so overall everything kind of got tainted. The rest of thieves I see in wvw are ddevs or core. Tbh running rifle de is more of a bane to ones self atm unless you run in a small groups. SA rifle de is to be avoided like the plague.

While I think the nerf too heavy on the Rifle trait and that compensation needed, I do not agree that SA bad in the Rifle build. Indeed I think it needed now more then ever just for the CIS trait. Rangers and ranged tear you apart otherwise. I have went back to the rifle DE build after a bit of a break on it and found that SA the only version that remained viable. That twachtower and sentry mechanic has to be removed.

[omgdracula.6345]

600 range is a joke. I like playing D/P WAY more than S/D. 600 removes D/P completely which means S/D will be the only viable build in PvP now. Which will be boring as hell. @Ben Phongluangtham.1065

[babazhook.6805]

@kuteykathy.8123 said:

@Exitus.3297 said:

Combining Escapist's Absolution and Driven Fortitude into Escapist's Fortitude in the Adept row will significantly boost its value. So in this row, Thieves are going to have to decide between taking 10% less damage from Melee attackers (and a small health boost), Condi Cleanse and Healing on a dodge for ~450 without Healing Power, or 20% reduced cooldown on Physical Skills with a 10 Endurance return. Looking at them on the surface, both of the new Traits outshine Brawler's Tenacity by quite a bit unless the Daredevil is running more than one physical skill and isn't too worried about conditions or sustain.

My main struggle now D: I'm running 4 Physical skills (Channeled Vigor, Impairing Daggers, Bandit's Defense, Impact Strike) on my bar. Brawler's Tenacity was such a great trait for the cooldown reductions and little bit of extra endurance, but not having the condi cleanse on evade would also be a risky decision for me in WvW... :'(

One upside is that the number of condition builds one meets has dropped from my perspective. That said Trickster with tricks combo is something I still favor over the BT. RFI/withdraw and one of Daggerstrom or scorpion wire are my own go to's for cleanse and have been on my own staff build as I favored Staff mastery.

[Carnifex.3275]

Let me get this straight... They nerf range to 600. They nerf staffs dmg. And only give unblockable to Steal and that's supposed to make thief better at 1v1? That's not even funny anymore. U want to make thief a brawler and have a better chance at 1v1 u gotta give them alot more sustain. And now all i see is nerf after nerf. Basically... take a shortbow #5 and carry on decapping cuz that's pretty much everythin thief can do right now. Dont even bother with any more weaps.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:They nerfed DE since the rework as well with the stealth on dodge change, rifle 3 costing 6 ini and DJ no longer unblockable, so it's not like DE avoided the nerf hammer either to be fair.

I think that 1s is too little especially with no compensation either. It was already neutered and relegated to fighting in areas without watchtowers [certain de rifle builds] and it lost all its sauce as well. I only see like maybe 1-2 de a day if I am lucky per matchup. The nerfs it received kind of spilled over so overall everything kind of got tainted. The rest of thieves I see in wvw are ddevs or core. Tbh running rifle de is more of a bane to ones self atm unless you run in a small groups. SA rifle de is to be avoided like the plague.

While I think the nerf too heavy on the Rifle trait and that compensation needed, I do not agree that SA bad in the Rifle build. Indeed I think it needed now more then ever just for the CIS trait. Rangers and ranged tear you apart otherwise. I have went back to the rifle DE build after a bit of a break on it and found that SA the only version that remained viable. That twachtower and sentry mechanic has to be removed.

Yeah, I had the same experience as Babaz when solo roaming tbh, I feel that SA is now mandatory to make DE work as other builds simply don't have the stealth uptime needed without it. The mounts make sentries dealable with to a certain extent, if you build to kill the sentry in 3 shots then immediately mount up, but that's not really dealing with how much 30s of marked screws over thieves in general tbh.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

So slight of hand doesnt reduce swipe cd? Lmao never seen a company that just went through what they did continually shoot themselves in the foot

[kash.9213]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:They nerfed DE since the rework as well with the stealth on dodge change, rifle 3 costing 6 ini and DJ no longer unblockable, so it's not like DE avoided the nerf hammer either to be fair.

I think that 1s is too little especially with no compensation either. It was already neutered and relegated to fighting in areas without watchtowers [certain de rifle builds] and it lost all its sauce as well. I only see like maybe 1-2 de a day if I am lucky per matchup. The nerfs it received kind of spilled over so overall everything kind of got tainted. The rest of thieves I see in wvw are ddevs or core. Tbh running rifle de is more of a bane to ones self atm unless you run in a small groups. SA rifle de is to be avoided like the plague.

While I think the nerf too heavy on the Rifle trait and that compensation needed, I do not agree that SA bad in the Rifle build. Indeed I think it needed now more then ever just for the CIS trait. Rangers and ranged tear you apart otherwise. I have went back to the rifle DE build after a bit of a break on it and found that SA the only version that remained viable. That twachtower and sentry mechanic has to be removed.

Yeah, I had the same experience as Babaz when solo roaming tbh, I feel that SA is now mandatory to make DE work as other builds simply don't have the stealth uptime needed without it. The mounts make sentries dealable with to a certain extent, if you build to kill the sentry in 3 shots then immediately mount up, but that's not really dealing with how much 30s of marked screws over thieves in general tbh.

I wouldn't say mandatory, a quick stealth to mask a change in direction should throw most people off and a double Deaths Retreat off Snipers Cover is long enough stealth to clear a stretch of cover to cover I think, helps that most people aren't trying to bother hunting you anyway. I like SA for movement speed and damage reduction to reposition in a fight mostly and for Rending Shade if I can get to the stacked boons I want. I also like Last Refuge in general for less fall damage but it's been a clutch blind/stealth for people I'm covering when Blinding Powder is on cd.