Elite Thief Spec, a Direct Downgrade to Core Thief

[alejandro.2093]

with the vision of anet to make trade offs on elite specs

Daredevil melee elite specDeadeye range elite spec

it is better to play core thief to access the middle ground of the two elite specs,

Daredevil Melee elite spec does not cut it because its sustain is abysmal compared to other class brawlers, we do NOT have Stability and Protection available to brawl like other brawler specs

Deadeye Range elite spec does not cut it either because every killing abilities needs a ramp up, eg needs malice stacking to be deadly, compared again to other range snipers like soulbeast (with insane up time unblockables) DH with pull and traps etc

so why play those two elite specs if it performs worse than our core spec?

[Sobx.1758]

People kept complaining that elite specs are direct upgrades over the core specs and when ANet actually tries to even things out a bit, some people suddenly are crying that the elite specs are "direct downgrades" all of a sudden?You also complain that DD and DE are different from a core thief, it's almost like that's the desired effect of picking an elite spec?! :O It seems all you want is elite spec to build over the already existing specs, which is not only stupid, it's literally a power creep and something that shouldn't be desired in a game with multiple potential builds per class. In my eyes, they're trying to move elite specs in a correct direction. Whether they 'hit or miss it' is one thing, but complaining that they're different from core specs? wtf?

[UNOwen.7132]

@"Sobx.1758" said:People kept complaining that elite specs are direct upgrades over the core specs and when ANet actually tries to even things out a bit, some people suddenly are crying that the elite specs are "direct downgrades" all of a sudden?You also complain that DD and DE are different from a core thief, it's almost like that's the desired effect of picking an elite spec?! :O It seems all you want is elite spec to build over the already existing specs, which is not only stupid, it's literally a power creep and something that shouldn't be desired in a game with multiple potential builds per class. In my eyes, they're trying to move elite specs in a correct direction. Whether they 'hit or miss it' is one thing, but complaining that they're different from core specs? kitten?

The problem here is that DD hasnt been a direct upgrade in a long time. I mean hell, the best PvP thief build currently doesnt use DD at all. The one that does is actually already outclassed. If they did a nerf as heavy-handed and silly as this to any of the elite specs that actually are direct upgrades, thatd maybe make sense. But no. They managed to pick the one class, where elite specializations actually arent a direct upgrade to nerf. It makes no sense and just is another example of Anets strange obsession with nerfing thieves at inappropriate times in stupid ways.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:People kept complaining that elite specs are direct upgrades over the core specs and when ANet actually tries to even things out a bit, some people suddenly are crying that the elite specs are "direct downgrades" all of a sudden?You also complain that DD and DE are different from a core thief, it's almost like that's the desired effect of picking an elite spec?! :O It seems all you want is elite spec to build over the already existing specs, which is not only stupid, it's literally a power creep and something that shouldn't be desired in a game with multiple potential builds per class. In my eyes, they're trying to move elite specs in a correct direction. Whether they 'hit or miss it' is one thing, but complaining that they're different from core specs? kitten?

The problem here is that DD hasnt been a direct upgrade in a

long

time. I mean hell, the best PvP thief build currently doesnt use DD at all. The one that does is actually

already outclassed

. If they did a nerf as heavy-handed and silly as this to any of the elite specs that actually

are

direct upgrades, thatd maybe make sense. But no. They managed to pick the

one

class, where elite specializations actually

arent

a direct upgrade to nerf. It makes no sense and just is another example of Anets strange obsession with nerfing thieves at inappropriate times in stupid ways.

You got additional dodges, and extra damage, plus dodge mechanics without directly effecting how the core class behaves. Thats a direct upgrade. As powerful as others? No. But a direct upgrade regardless.

The primary reason a thief drops DD is for sword, so they can have acrobatics and CS or DA without giving up trickery. If we could affors to drop trickery (knowing anet will never fix the issue) you'd see a huge spike in power for DD

I am typically strongly against nerfing thief. But even I can see this needs some changes.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:People kept complaining that elite specs are direct upgrades over the core specs and when ANet actually tries to even things out a bit, some people suddenly are crying that the elite specs are "direct downgrades" all of a sudden?You also complain that DD and DE are different from a core thief, it's almost like that's the desired effect of picking an elite spec?! :O It seems all you want is elite spec to build over the already existing specs, which is not only stupid, it's literally a power creep and something that shouldn't be desired in a game with multiple potential builds per class. In my eyes, they're trying to move elite specs in a correct direction. Whether they 'hit or miss it' is one thing, but complaining that they're different from core specs? kitten?

The problem here is that DD hasnt been a direct upgrade in a

long

time. I mean hell, the best PvP thief build currently doesnt use DD at all. The one that does is actually

already outclassed

. If they did a nerf as heavy-handed and silly as this to any of the elite specs that actually

are

direct upgrades, thatd maybe make sense. But no. They managed to pick the

one

class, where elite specializations actually

arent

a direct upgrade to nerf. It makes no sense and just is another example of Anets strange obsession with nerfing thieves at inappropriate times in stupid ways.

You got additional dodges, and extra damage, plus dodge mechanics without directly effecting how the core class behaves. Thats a direct upgrade. As powerful as others? No. But a direct upgrade regardless.

The primary reason a thief drops DD is for sword, so they can have acrobatics and CS or DA without giving up trickery. If we could affors to drop trickery (knowing anet will never fix the issue) you'd see a huge spike in power for DD

I am typically strongly against nerfing thief. But even I can see this needs some changes.

Additional Dodges and change to dodge mechanics are the only upgrades. Clearly "additional damage" doesnt apply seeing how it was dropped from several PvP builds because the damage was less with it. Now, what you didnt mention is that the dodges youre forced into come with downsides. Dash obviously has the problem where Cripple or Chill completely screw you over, but even bound and lotus take you out of stealth, interact poorly with stuff like Retaliation or more importantly, Full Counter, and of course have the problem of being considered attacks, making them interruptable and triggering all on-interrupt aspects. Now, of course, these downsides are pretty minor. But the upsides are likewise, pretty minor. The third dodge is the biggest one, but not only is it just a strictly inferior version of something thief already had prior to Daredevil that was removed to be given to Daredevil, its also not that big. Since none of the things that interact with Endurance work with this endurance increase, its practically just a single, additional dodge in an entire fight.

Now, you are right that if Trickery wasnt really worth picking anymore, DD would see more play. But even thats not because of Daredevil being a strict upgrade, but because of how terrible most Thief traitlines are. SA is only worth using for stealth builds, but noone plays stealth builds, because stealth builds are terrible, since stealth itself is just bad. Its literally only permastealth builds that use it, and those are just cheesy builds that shouldnt exist. Even Deadeye doesnt use SA. And yknow what? Even if Trickery wasnt as mandatory as it is now, I dont think any build other than D/P would even use Daredevil over Critical Strikes. Well, Staff builds I guess but thats redundant.

So no, this was just a stupid change that changes Daredevil from "Subpar except on D/P" to "completely unusable outside of PvE".