Petition: make SWIPE have 900 range in PvP — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Petition: make SWIPE have 900 range in PvP

dDuff.3860dDuff.3860 Member ✭✭✭
edited April 20, 2019 in Professions

Hello.

While I'm happy about upcoming balance shift and appreciate the work put into the skill changes, there's one thing that make is completely disappointing for me as a thief main:

  • Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600 and makes the attack unblockable.
  1. First of all, this description makes it unclear whether the current mechanic of additional dodge stays with the daredevil or gets deleted. I've read this as an additional mechanic to the current functionality since the description doesn't also say 'gain access to physical skill category' which is kinda baseline for daredevil. However, would be nice to get some clarification on this point.
  2. Second, I don't see how an unblockable steal can be a fair 'trade-off' for a range decrease. Most PvP thief builds (if not all) are mandatory to pick trickery traitline, because of bountiful theft and sleight of hand traits, which already makes it sorta unblockable. So, assuming new daredevil traits won't change the need to pick trickery, there's very little additional value put into unblockable steal, while the 'trade-off' is halved distance. 600 range is less than Legacy's mid point. Imagine, to be out of steal range, while standing on the same capture point in conquest.
  3. Third, since game launch, steal had 900 range baseline, with long reach trait, which was improving it to 1200. After HoT update, steal was made 1200 baseline and it was very good change. However, a lot of time passed since then, classes got their gapclosers/gapmakers built into their meta tools. And most thief builds still invest 6 out of 9 traits into steal, to make it competitive ability. Personally, I don't see how it'll be productive to thief gameplay to decrease steal value by reducing its range.
  4. While I understand the intent to make daredevil melee oriented specialization, there are other weaponsets that are utilizing daredevil traits. First of all Dagger/Pistol sets, which is already in a kinda situational spot and there only due to its huge mobility and spike potential, the 600 range will take away both. There are other sets, S/p, P/d, D/d also were able to utilize mobility provided by daredevil and a spike potential of instant cast steal. Now it is all gone.

However, as mentioned trade-off for unblockable part of this skill I still would agree on some range-cut.
so, taking all the argumentation above:

Make swipe have 900 range and make the attack unblockable in addition to previous effects of Physical Supremacy at least in pvp.

I'd appreciate constructive feedback on the topic in a form of:
1. Do you agree with the petition request
2. Your argumentation

Thanks everyone for attention, and looking forward for feedback from Anet's team.

Comments

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    Why would a sane thief steal when a block is up? Also, steal is instant so blocking will be one in a million. You got nothing out of this unblockable, so sad.

    But as daredevil, you're no longer a thief so you can't steal anymore. Maybe next patch weaver will be actual weaver, can't wait.

    Anyway, that is almost the same range as engis flamethrower, it would most likely be a terrain pass by now than actually stealing something. And as for all shadowsteps in the game, "No line of sight", "No valid path", and the skill goes on cooldown.

    Though I hate Vault thieves as staff backline, but we gotta care for all classes in the end.

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • dodgerrule.8739dodgerrule.8739 Member ✭✭
    edited April 20, 2019

    No support elite specs need to sacrifice something that makes their main class special.

    Remember when you chose an elite spec you decided to sacrifice a core mechanic. This was the original idea for elite specs in this game.

  • Erasculio.2914Erasculio.2914 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The Daredevil's staff auto-attack has a range of 130. IMO, they should change Swipe's range to 130 too, keeping in mind that it's focused on a melee specialization (and 600 is definitely way above melee range).

    How about some anti eyes bleeding options? Here's the direct link to the concept.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2019

    Have to agree with everything OP said.

    The 600 Range is too low, if Devs believe it needs reduction then 900 is the right spot.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Apsalar.6708Apsalar.6708 Member
    edited April 20, 2019

    I agree with OP on all points.

    I don't really know what Swipe is. Does it knock down the target? Does it deal damage? Does it steal boons or remove them? Does it have a cast time? Is it there an animation to it? Does it replace the third dodge?

    I side with OP on fourth argument the most. Daredevil rework should match the audience, not the balance team's idea.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Agreed.
    600 is range where daredevil is automatically excluded from roamer spot, and can't rly do anything. 900 would be much more fair tradeoff.
    600 range is basicly killing beautiful d/p build archetype, imo one of the funniest builds in a game.
    Also as mentioned, preparedness and maybe few other traits should become baseline, as any thief without trickery feels just half naked

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Sniper.5961Sniper.5961 Member ✭✭

    i cant agree more i hope so much that they will make it 900 or the trait optional so d/p daredevil will still be useable i enjoyed the build since hot and noone was complaining about that build because it was one of the most balanced builds it would totally drain my enjoyment for this game, this is so unjustified.

  • Agreed.
    600 range Steal means when you're in a fight,you might instantly out of steal range if both you and your enemy dodge roll backwards.
    Changing Steal into Swipe without proper mechanic and relative stolen item is meaningless,it might make d/p dd build even worse.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    @Vallun.2071 said:
    Another point is that if they want daredevil to be a melee class, reduicng steal's range doesn't really achieve that. If anything it prevents thieves from getting into melee range and leaves them easily kited. If they want to nerf daredevil to make it more of a give and take for choosing an elite spec then they should revert exhaustion on dash thief because that was already the give and take. A range reduction is a much heavier nerf than an unblockable swipe benefits because range is much more versatile in all situations than unblockable. Personally i think 1200 range is too far for any thief to steal from, 900 range is much more interactive range. As mentioned before 600 is a bit too small where you couldnt even steal through legacy mid point, you couldnt steal to someone standing on a side node on skyhammer when youre on the other side of the dividing wall. It would definitely be a huge nerf to the playability of the class and not so much the powerlevel.

    I am confused about the last sentence. You say it changes how daredevil is played, but not so much the powerlevel. Is that not the entire point of the change? To change DD playstyle/gameplay.

    // Yanim

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just adapt, thieves.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CamiloCC.8175 said:
    Agreed.
    600 range Steal means when you're in a fight,you might instantly out of steal range if both you and your enemy dodge roll backwards.
    Changing Steal into Swipe without proper mechanic and relative stolen item is meaningless,it might make d/p dd build even worse.

    Hyperbole. You have dash (higher travel distance than dodge), you have shadow shot, you have infiltrator signet, you have shadow step...

    600 is fine. 900 would be a joke and nothing you could seriously call a tradeoff for the most mobile spec in the game

  • dDuff.3860dDuff.3860 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Just adapt, thieves.

    Yea yea, unblockable DJ, stealth on dodge, lead attacks, PI damage etc. etc.
    what's next, dagger storm?
    Adapt thieves xD

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @CamiloCC.8175 said:
    Agreed.
    600 range Steal means when you're in a fight,you might instantly out of steal range if both you and your enemy dodge roll backwards.
    Changing Steal into Swipe without proper mechanic and relative stolen item is meaningless,it might make d/p dd build even worse.

    Hyperbole. You have dash (higher travel distance than dodge), you have shadow shot, you have infiltrator signet, you have shadow step...

    600 is fine. 900 would be a joke and nothing you could seriously call a tradeoff for the most mobile spec in the game

    May I ask what is a tradeoff being a chronomancer? Or may be a soulbeast? Just new additional set of skills in trade given for free.
    And as point being said, unblockable is very very situational, since you already have bountiful theft built into any real build. So a trade off of a slight range-cut for a slight additional functionality is pretty fair unless you trade half of the distance for 15% additional effectiveness.
    Killing build/weaponkit diversity to make some thiefs enjoy staff dodgespam.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    @dDuff.3860 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Just adapt, thieves.

    Yea yea, unblockable DJ, stealth on dodge, lead attacks, PI damage etc. etc.
    what's next, dagger storm?
    Adapt thieves xD

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @CamiloCC.8175 said:
    Agreed.
    600 range Steal means when you're in a fight,you might instantly out of steal range if both you and your enemy dodge roll backwards.
    Changing Steal into Swipe without proper mechanic and relative stolen item is meaningless,it might make d/p dd build even worse.

    Hyperbole. You have dash (higher travel distance than dodge), you have shadow shot, you have infiltrator signet, you have shadow step...

    600 is fine. 900 would be a joke and nothing you could seriously call a tradeoff for the most mobile spec in the game

    May I ask what is a tradeoff being a chronomancer? Or may be a soulbeast? Just new additional set of skills in trade given for free.8

    Chronomancer is confirmed to be in the work and explicitly named as a build that needs a trade off in the Balance Patch preview, but just wasn't ready for this patch yet. Personally, I suspect they're looking at having Continuum Shift replace Distortion as the F4, and that all the traits that specifically impact Distortion as a shatter will just apply to Continuum Shift instead. Continuum Shift is fundamentally unbalance, but if the trade off was the 2nd most powerful shatter skill it'd make Mesmer vs Chronomancer in PvP not such an obvious pick the way it is now. If I was an Anet Developer that's what I would do.

    If I was also an Anet Developer I would remove Petswap with Soulbeast. You form a closer bond with the pet and are more powerful with it, but at the expense of being able to swap betwen two pets in combat.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • dDuff.3860dDuff.3860 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @dDuff.3860 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Just adapt, thieves.

    Yea yea, unblockable DJ, stealth on dodge, lead attacks, PI damage etc. etc.
    what's next, dagger storm?
    Adapt thieves xD

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @CamiloCC.8175 said:
    Agreed.
    600 range Steal means when you're in a fight,you might instantly out of steal range if both you and your enemy dodge roll backwards.
    Changing Steal into Swipe without proper mechanic and relative stolen item is meaningless,it might make d/p dd build even worse.

    Hyperbole. You have dash (higher travel distance than dodge), you have shadow shot, you have infiltrator signet, you have shadow step...

    600 is fine. 900 would be a joke and nothing you could seriously call a tradeoff for the most mobile spec in the game

    May I ask what is a tradeoff being a chronomancer? Or may be a soulbeast? Just new additional set of skills in trade given for free.

    Chronomancer is confirmed to be in the work and explicitly named as a build that needs a trade off in the Balance Patch preview, but just wasn't ready for this patch yet. Personally, I suspect they're looking at having Continuum Shift replace Distortion as the F4, and that all the traits that specifically impact Distortion as a shatter will just apply to Continuum Shift instead. Continuum Shift is fundamentally unbalance, but if the trade off was the 2nd most powerful shatter skill it'd make Mesmer vs Chronomancer in PvP not such an obvious pick the way it is now. If I was an Anet Developer that's what I would do.

    Chronomancer is just one thing, list can go on: scrapper, tempest, revenant (so far we don't know if it is a fair trade-off) all of them have no tradeoff for slotting elite spec.
    However it is thief that is supposed to suffer from exhaustion from unhindered combatant dodge, or which is even more obnoxious, halved range of the steal being a minor trait. I'm not asking for no trade-offs, I'm offering a fair functionality for a fair price, instead of just kitten rework that kills one of the most balanced and skillful builds of the thief.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    Steal is a tricky topic since they are trying to make expansions a sidegrade to core specializations. So we need to keep in mind the elite cannot be better than the core, only different with some drawback. To that end 900 range + unblockable is very reasonable.

    However the better way to go in my opinion would be to let core thief have a significantly lower recharge on steal. This means upping it's cd to about 60 seconds, 20% reduction if it lands similar to Tides of Time. Then allow Trickery to speed it up based on how many Lead Attack stacks you have, up to 15% extra recharge per second, not stackable with alacrity.

    This means at very best we will see a ~40 sec cd on use, if not core, with trickery and assuming it lands. If no elite specialization is detected, give full 50% cd reduction off the bat in tooltip leaving the cd about the same as is traited today.

    This way going elite specs already have a buildt in disadvantage with not as many steals, making range reduction redundant and utility like unblockable more relevant.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    @dDuff.3860 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @dDuff.3860 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Just adapt, thieves.

    Yea yea, unblockable DJ, stealth on dodge, lead attacks, PI damage etc. etc.
    what's next, dagger storm?
    Adapt thieves xD

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @CamiloCC.8175 said:
    Agreed.
    600 range Steal means when you're in a fight,you might instantly out of steal range if both you and your enemy dodge roll backwards.
    Changing Steal into Swipe without proper mechanic and relative stolen item is meaningless,it might make d/p dd build even worse.

    Hyperbole. You have dash (higher travel distance than dodge), you have shadow shot, you have infiltrator signet, you have shadow step...

    600 is fine. 900 would be a joke and nothing you could seriously call a tradeoff for the most mobile spec in the game

    May I ask what is a tradeoff being a chronomancer? Or may be a soulbeast? Just new additional set of skills in trade given for free.

    Chronomancer is confirmed to be in the work and explicitly named as a build that needs a trade off in the Balance Patch preview, but just wasn't ready for this patch yet. Personally, I suspect they're looking at having Continuum Shift replace Distortion as the F4, and that all the traits that specifically impact Distortion as a shatter will just apply to Continuum Shift instead. Continuum Shift is fundamentally unbalance, but if the trade off was the 2nd most powerful shatter skill it'd make Mesmer vs Chronomancer in PvP not such an obvious pick the way it is now. If I was an Anet Developer that's what I would do.

    Chronomancer is just one thing, list can go on: scrapper, tempest, revenant (so far we don't know if it is a fair trade-off) all of them have no tradeoff for slotting elite spec.
    However it is thief that is supposed to suffer from exhaustion from unhindered combatant dodge, or which is even more obnoxious, halved range of the steal being a minor trait.

    I think Tempest is already fair. Overload is the mechanic and if they decide to overload and use the tempest mechanic the cooldown for switching back into that stance is significantly increased.

    It's not necessarily about all specs being equal so much as the elite specializations have to give something up, which is good just from a philosophical level. Daredevils lose steal range but they gain a third dodge bar (And steal becomes ublockable). If daredevil isn't competative in Conquest compared to core thief they can look more closely at individual Daredevil utility skills, staff, and traits and tune them to be as good as Core Thief traits. I think Unhindered Combatant losing Exhaustion is far more likely in the future. Scrapper is another build that that explicitly called out by the Balance Patch Preview as being in the works. Herald and Renegade do not get the new 25 Energy F2 Core Revenant is getting.

    But yeah, just in case you missed it:

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    In the case of elite specializations like druid, herald, chronomancer, berserker, or scrapper, this type of trade-off isn't possible because the specialization adds a completely new ability. With this update, we're targeting a few elite specializations to receive trade-offs, and we expect to continue doing this in future updates.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    @dDuff.3860 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @dDuff.3860 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Just adapt, thieves.

    Yea yea, unblockable DJ, stealth on dodge, lead attacks, PI damage etc. etc.
    what's next, dagger storm?
    Adapt thieves xD

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @CamiloCC.8175 said:
    Agreed.
    600 range Steal means when you're in a fight,you might instantly out of steal range if both you and your enemy dodge roll backwards.
    Changing Steal into Swipe without proper mechanic and relative stolen item is meaningless,it might make d/p dd build even worse.

    Hyperbole. You have dash (higher travel distance than dodge), you have shadow shot, you have infiltrator signet, you have shadow step...

    600 is fine. 900 would be a joke and nothing you could seriously call a tradeoff for the most mobile spec in the game

    May I ask what is a tradeoff being a chronomancer? Or may be a soulbeast? Just new additional set of skills in trade given for free.

    Chronomancer is confirmed to be in the work and explicitly named as a build that needs a trade off in the Balance Patch preview, but just wasn't ready for this patch yet. Personally, I suspect they're looking at having Continuum Shift replace Distortion as the F4, and that all the traits that specifically impact Distortion as a shatter will just apply to Continuum Shift instead. Continuum Shift is fundamentally unbalance, but if the trade off was the 2nd most powerful shatter skill it'd make Mesmer vs Chronomancer in PvP not such an obvious pick the way it is now. If I was an Anet Developer that's what I would do.

    Chronomancer is just one thing, list can go on: scrapper, tempest, revenant (so far we don't know if it is a fair trade-off) all of them have no tradeoff for slotting elite spec.
    However it is thief that is supposed to suffer from exhaustion from unhindered combatant dodge, or which is even more obnoxious, halved range of the steal being a minor trait. I'm not asking for no trade-offs, I'm offering a fair functionality for a fair price, instead of just kitten rework that kills one of the most balanced and skillful builds of the thief.

    well they are giving core rev new skills with the patch that do get replaced when using elite, so they gain their tradeoffs in reverse :D

    as for swipe: i would prefer it added an unblockable buff instead of just being unblockable and/or make it AoE (with multiple pockets for the skills!), but range is probably easier for em to adjust.

  • Sniper.5961Sniper.5961 Member ✭✭

    daredevil doesnt even need a tradeoff to beginn with, the traitline is in line with all the other traitlines, so much, that the current meta is not to using it for s/d and uses 3 of the core traitlines insteadoff, because all 3 are better. The tradeoff we are speaking about is a range nerf from 1200 to 600 for gaining unblockable steal and thats unreasonable. It doesnt make sense to nerf one of the best balanced builds noone was complaining about, in a gamemode that needs more builddiversity this is a huge mistake. People saying we need to adapt to an unreasonable change without providing any reasonable argument why it would be a good idea to nerf d/p dardevil a perfectly working build cant be taken serious in a discussion where reasonable arguments are crucial. People arguing we need a tradeoff for every elite spec daredevil included, jut for the sake of it dont see the point why a-net made this decision: Just to inform you the decision was made to get elite spacs more in line with the core counterparts and at the same time to provide a feeling of playing something diffrent than core bouth of it is already given for daredevil. Trying to push this spec into a brawler role without a massive overhaul of the class is unreasonable in the first place.

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @CamiloCC.8175 said:
    Agreed.
    600 range Steal means when you're in a fight,you might instantly out of steal range if both you and your enemy dodge roll backwards.
    Changing Steal into Swipe without proper mechanic and relative stolen item is meaningless,it might make d/p dd build even worse.

    Hyperbole. You have dash (higher travel distance than dodge), you have shadow shot, you have infiltrator signet, you have shadow step...

    600 is fine. 900 would be a joke and nothing you could seriously call a tradeoff for the most mobile spec in the game

    This is just a prime example of someone who clearly hasnt understood the gravity this change would bring because of a lack of understanding of the classes gameplay and general role in spvp. Dash already got nerfed several times, shadowshot uses initiative and is 900 range and has a tell, infiltartor signet would take up another utility spot, shadowstep is your most important stunbreaker and should only used really carefully to engage. This plus the post misses completely the point that certrain crucial steal spots arnt available anymore wich will push the d/p thief in favor of the s/d thief completely out of the meta even though d/p was a situational build to beginn with. sometimes i really have the impression that some uninformed ignorant people are commenting out of a general dislike for thiefes or just because they like the concept of a "tradeoff" for every elite spec and want one for daredevil aswell for the sake of it. Dont get me wrong i like the idee of a well balanced elite spec with a tradeoff aswell but the way they try to realize this with the daredevil is a wrong one. Personally id be fine with the change if the range would be 900 + unblockable instead of 1.2k without but id favor if they would make the trait optional.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    If D/P Daredevil is not meta with 1200 steal, why do you bring meta as an argument against that 600 tradeoff?

    Maybe steal isn't the reason for the state in which the spec finds itself currenty?

    Staff daredevil is too strong at the moment. It has everything. Gap closers, blocks, evades, aoe, disengages, endurance refilling skills. A staff daredevil can duell any spec in the game for forever due to damage avoidance and disengages + reengages. Thief players who don't agree might try it or if they already did, then eventuelly get good at the game.

    D/P is such a strong utility set (stealth at will, interrupt chains, blinds, unblockable shadowsteps) that it HAS TO BE weak in fighting capability. If you want to be a strong fighting class, then pick a damage weaponcombo and not a utility combo like d/p+sb.

  • Sniper.5961Sniper.5961 Member ✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    If D/P Daredevil is not meta with 1200 steal, why do you bring meta as an argument against that 600 tradeoff?

    Maybe steal isn't the reason for the state in which the spec finds itself currenty?

    Staff daredevil is too strong at the moment. It has everything. Gap closers, blocks, evades, aoe, disengages, endurance refilling skills. A staff daredevil can duell any spec in the game for forever due to damage avoidance and disengages + reengages. Thief players who don't agree might try it or if they already have eventuelly get good at the game.

    D/P is such a strong utility set (stealth at will, interrupt chains, blinds, unblockable shadowsteps) that it HAS TO BE weak in fighting capability. If you want to be a strong fighting class, then pick a damage weaponcombo and not a utility combo like d/p+sb.

    You pretty much answered your own question d/p is situational and in certain teamcompositions it can be meta in others s/d is by nerfing the range s/d will always be meta and d/p daredevil will get removed as a viable build in spvp even though it was balanced. I never complained about d/p being too week in fighting capability im completely awayre it is a utility set for a roamer class and it should stay viable in this regard. Disengages and reengages dont work while fighting onpoint you lose the point that way. If staff daredevil is so good as you say i wonder why you see a lack of them in high level gameplay and the teams who win the monthly ats, i think it is because they are actually a sub par pointhiolder compared to the other pointholder out there and a inferior roamer compared to other thief builds and the revenant. To make staff DD on par with other pointholder it needs to be buffed.

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭

    Could make it 750 and then daredevils can suffer the same as soulbeasts trying to smoke assault with the most awkward range in the game.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    DD so weak core is meta and not cuz its great but cuz its bestvthiefs got.non thief players are glad the class is garbage so all ur gonna get is thieves adapt replies cuz after the yrs most the community has wanted them right where they are and arenet doesnt have the balls to keep with their initial design of thieves so now their low sustain medium damage class,sounds lije the right balance lmao now thier nerfing the steal range for useless trade off that nerfs other builds at same time.so thoughtless.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    If D/P Daredevil is not meta with 1200 steal, why do you bring meta as an argument against that 600 tradeoff?

    Maybe steal isn't the reason for the state in which the spec finds itself currenty?

    Staff daredevil is too strong at the moment. It has everything. Gap closers, blocks, evades, aoe, disengages, endurance refilling skills. A staff daredevil can duell any spec in the game for forever due to damage avoidance and disengages + reengages. Thief players who don't agree might try it or if they already did, then eventuelly get good at the game.

    D/P is such a strong utility set (stealth at will, interrupt chains, blinds, unblockable shadowsteps) that it HAS TO BE weak in fighting capability. If you want to be a strong fighting class, then pick a damage weaponcombo and not a utility combo like d/p+sb.

    Lmao DD to strong? kitten d/p has to be week cuz utility.this post is so ridiculous I'm not even gonna say what I was gonna cuz it be wasted.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    If D/P Daredevil is not meta with 1200 steal, why do you bring meta as an argument against that 600 tradeoff?

    Maybe steal isn't the reason for the state in which the spec finds itself currenty?

    Staff daredevil is too strong at the moment. It has everything. Gap closers, blocks, evades, aoe, disengages, endurance refilling skills. A staff daredevil can duell any spec in the game for forever due to damage avoidance and disengages + reengages. Thief players who don't agree might try it or if they already did, then eventuelly get good at the game.

    D/P is such a strong utility set (stealth at will, interrupt chains, blinds, unblockable shadowsteps) that it HAS TO BE weak in fighting capability. If you want to be a strong fighting class, then pick a damage weaponcombo and not a utility combo like d/p+sb.

    This patch is going to change whole dd into dueler melee spec, forcing ppl into staff. It kills build diversity, as d/p is a roamer spec and this patch is going to take his mobility away. Roamer without mobility is kitten.
    If staff is so strong, tell when did u see it last time in finals/semifinals of any mat?

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    If D/P Daredevil is not meta with 1200 steal, why do you bring meta as an argument against that 600 tradeoff?

    Maybe steal isn't the reason for the state in which the spec finds itself currenty?

    Staff daredevil is too strong at the moment. It has everything. Gap closers, blocks, evades, aoe, disengages, endurance refilling skills. A staff daredevil can duell any spec in the game for forever due to damage avoidance and disengages + reengages. Thief players who don't agree might try it or if they already did, then eventuelly get good at the game.

    D/P is such a strong utility set (stealth at will, interrupt chains, blinds, unblockable shadowsteps) that it HAS TO BE weak in fighting capability. If you want to be a strong fighting class, then pick a damage weaponcombo and not a utility combo like d/p+sb.

    This patch is going to change whole dd into dueler melee spec, forcing ppl into staff. It kills build diversity, as d/p is a roamer spec and this patch is going to take his mobility away. Roamer without mobility is kitten.
    If staff is so strong, tell when did u see it last time in finals/semifinals of any mat?

    Ud think arenanet might notice only build in high level being used on thief is s/d and want to improve build diversity and increase build options instead of decrease it.but that's their logic I gues,force people to use staff and be in melee range but not give it enough to be viable lol.

  • dDuff.3860dDuff.3860 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    If D/P Daredevil is not meta with 1200 steal, why do you bring meta as an argument against that 600 tradeoff?

    Maybe steal isn't the reason for the state in which the spec finds itself currenty?

    Staff daredevil is too strong at the moment. It has everything. Gap closers, blocks, evades, aoe, disengages, endurance refilling skills. A staff daredevil can duell any spec in the game for forever due to damage avoidance and disengages + reengages. Thief players who don't agree might try it or if they already did, then eventuelly get good at the game.

    D/P is such a strong utility set (stealth at will, interrupt chains, blinds, unblockable shadowsteps) that it HAS TO BE weak in fighting capability. If you want to be a strong fighting class, then pick a damage weaponcombo and not a utility combo like d/p+sb.

    This patch is going to change whole dd into dueler melee spec, forcing ppl into staff. It kills build diversity, as d/p is a roamer spec and this patch is going to take his mobility away. Roamer without mobility is kitten.
    If staff is so strong, tell when did u see it last time in finals/semifinals of any mat?

    Ud think arenanet might notice only build in high level being used on thief is s/d and want to improve build diversity and increase build options instead of decrease it.but that's their logic I gues,force people to use staff and be in melee range but not give it enough to be viable lol.

    Actually, pre-deadeye nerf it was pretty effective in high level play, now it 'kinda' dead.
    Same goes for D/p thief, it is relatively effective to the point it can win games when played perfectly, I guess after patch it'll be 'kinda' dead.
    'Kinda' means you still can play it in solos, duos, but any competent enemy team will prevent you from being effective, by zoning you out and beating the kitten out of you.
    So after patch, most likely we'll see only core s/d, that has been here for like 2 years now, and, probably, some meme staff dodger with unblockable steals. If thats a build diversity we deserve, I guess it might be a time to rest from the game.

  • Sniper.5961Sniper.5961 Member ✭✭

    @dDuff.3860 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    If D/P Daredevil is not meta with 1200 steal, why do you bring meta as an argument against that 600 tradeoff?

    Maybe steal isn't the reason for the state in which the spec finds itself currenty?

    Staff daredevil is too strong at the moment. It has everything. Gap closers, blocks, evades, aoe, disengages, endurance refilling skills. A staff daredevil can duell any spec in the game for forever due to damage avoidance and disengages + reengages. Thief players who don't agree might try it or if they already did, then eventuelly get good at the game.

    D/P is such a strong utility set (stealth at will, interrupt chains, blinds, unblockable shadowsteps) that it HAS TO BE weak in fighting capability. If you want to be a strong fighting class, then pick a damage weaponcombo and not a utility combo like d/p+sb.

    This patch is going to change whole dd into dueler melee spec, forcing ppl into staff. It kills build diversity, as d/p is a roamer spec and this patch is going to take his mobility away. Roamer without mobility is kitten.
    If staff is so strong, tell when did u see it last time in finals/semifinals of any mat?

    Ud think arenanet might notice only build in high level being used on thief is s/d and want to improve build diversity and increase build options instead of decrease it.but that's their logic I gues,force people to use staff and be in melee range but not give it enough to be viable lol.

    Actually, pre-deadeye nerf it was pretty effective in high level play, now it 'kinda' dead.
    Same goes for D/p thief, it is relatively effective to the point it can win games when played perfectly, I guess after patch it'll be 'kinda' dead.
    'Kinda' means you still can play it in solos, duos, but any competent enemy team will prevent you from being effective, by zoning you out and beating the kitten out of you.
    So after patch, most likely we'll see only core s/d, that has been here for like 2 years now, and, probably, some meme staff dodger with unblockable steals. If thats a build diversity we deserve, I guess it might be a time to rest from the game.

    yes if they dont make the steal 900 or optional i think im not going to enjoy spvp anymore. Today i played my probably last games on daredevil it was fun while it lasted, this is so unnecessary and disappointing.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They ignore. Trigger will be pulled. Let's see where the round hits.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    Hit or miss?

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • Whitworth.7259Whitworth.7259 Member ✭✭✭

    There will be nothing elite about daredevil elite spec anymore after this. Trading steal for a third dodge is a joke. Core thief with acro already outperformed daredevil, it's just going to outperform it even more now.

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Whitworth.7259 said:
    There will be nothing elite about daredevil elite spec anymore after this. Trading steal for a third dodge is a joke. Core thief with acro already outperformed daredevil, it's just going to outperform it even more now.

    The elite part is getting a 3rd dodge, physical skills, and the staff, it’s not meant to be a direct upgrade contrary to what the forums seem to think.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Whitworth.7259Whitworth.7259 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2019

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @Whitworth.7259 said:
    There will be nothing elite about daredevil elite spec anymore after this. Trading steal for a third dodge is a joke. Core thief with acro already outperformed daredevil, it's just going to outperform it even more now.

    The elite part is getting a 3rd dodge, physical skills, and the staff, it’s not meant to be a direct upgrade contrary to what the forums seem to think.

    They're going to have to stop naming them 'elite' then if they're not supposed to be better than core. Having a third dodge is nowhere near as useful as a 1200 range steal, especially with the nerfed dodge traits on the daredevil line.

    If they're talking about trade-offs, thief already makes huge trade offs for daredevil. You either lose trickery or acro, both of which made core thief better than daredevil. As I said, core is just way better than daredevil now, it wasn't even meta before.

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Whitworth.7259 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @Whitworth.7259 said:
    There will be nothing elite about daredevil elite spec anymore after this. Trading steal for a third dodge is a joke. Core thief with acro already outperformed daredevil, it's just going to outperform it even more now.

    The elite part is getting a 3rd dodge, physical skills, and the staff, it’s not meant to be a direct upgrade contrary to what the forums seem to think.

    They're going to have to stop naming them 'elite' then if they're not supposed to be better than core. Having a third dodge is nowhere near as useful as a 1200 range steal, especially with the nerfed dodge traits on the daredevil line.

    If they're talking about trade-offs, thief already makes huge trade offs for daredevil. You either lose trickery or acro, both of which made core thief better than daredevil. As I said, core is just way better than daredevil now, it wasn't even meta before.

    Yeah when elite specs were first announced they mentioned the naming was because you can only have 1, and it gives a new weapon and utility skills but were meant to be side grades/just change how the class plays.

    The name is very misleading, they should’ve just called them Archetypes or something

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dDuff.3860 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    If D/P Daredevil is not meta with 1200 steal, why do you bring meta as an argument against that 600 tradeoff?

    Maybe steal isn't the reason for the state in which the spec finds itself currenty?

    Staff daredevil is too strong at the moment. It has everything. Gap closers, blocks, evades, aoe, disengages, endurance refilling skills. A staff daredevil can duell any spec in the game for forever due to damage avoidance and disengages + reengages. Thief players who don't agree might try it or if they already did, then eventuelly get good at the game.

    D/P is such a strong utility set (stealth at will, interrupt chains, blinds, unblockable shadowsteps) that it HAS TO BE weak in fighting capability. If you want to be a strong fighting class, then pick a damage weaponcombo and not a utility combo like d/p+sb.

    This patch is going to change whole dd into dueler melee spec, forcing ppl into staff. It kills build diversity, as d/p is a roamer spec and this patch is going to take his mobility away. Roamer without mobility is kitten.
    If staff is so strong, tell when did u see it last time in finals/semifinals of any mat?

    Ud think arenanet might notice only build in high level being used on thief is s/d and want to improve build diversity and increase build options instead of decrease it.but that's their logic I gues,force people to use staff and be in melee range but not give it enough to be viable lol.

    Actually, pre-deadeye nerf it was pretty effective in high level play, now it 'kinda' dead.
    Same goes for D/p thief, it is relatively effective to the point it can win games when played perfectly, I guess after patch it'll be 'kinda' dead.
    'Kinda' means you still can play it in solos, duos, but any competent enemy team will prevent you from being effective, by zoning you out and beating the kitten out of you.
    So after patch, most likely we'll see only core s/d, that has been here for like 2 years now, and, probably, some meme staff dodger with unblockable steals. If thats a build diversity we deserve, I guess it might be a time to rest from the game.

    A nerf is unsuccessful if a class almost disappears in high level. An effective successfull nerd shouldtone down a spec all while still being viable in its role and enjoyable to play. Unfortunately that rarely happens here lol

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smoke_Assault_(soulbeast)

    this skill has greater teleport range (750) and can be unblockable with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstoppable_Union which also makes soulbeast mode a stunbreak on 10 second cd

    and you dudes reduce steal range to 600.

    lol

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smoke_Assault_(soulbeast)

    this skill has greater teleport range (750) and can be unblockable with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstoppable_Union which also makes soulbeast mode a stunbreak on 10 second cd

    and you dudes reduce steal range to 600.

    lol

    Thered be a huge list of things u could point out that's ridiculously more broken than steal range was that got left untouched.no point in trying to follow arenets logic,I learned a while ago its pointless

  • dDuff.3860dDuff.3860 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019

    You can also leave 600 range, but half the basic cooldown. So if traited it can be a solid 10-12 cd steal. That'd make sense having a drawback in a form of 600 range.
    Atm I see no reason to play daredevil in pvp, and barely see any successful ones in ATs/high-ranked Q

    So, if destroying daredevil pvp was the initial plan — patch quite achieved it.

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    @dDuff.3860 said:
    You can also leave 600 range, but half the basic cooldown. So if traited it can be a solid 10-12 cd steal. That'd make sense having a drawback in a form of 600 range.
    Atm I see no reason to play daredevil in pvp, and barely see any successful ones in ATs/high-ranked Q

    So, if destroying daredevil pvp was the initial plan — patch quite achieved it.

    I see a lower cd on the "steal" to be broken if the player was able to land as many as possible since they will steal boons like crazy from Bountiful Theft. Tbh, after thought, they should keep Swipe unblockable AND 900 range.

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • Sniper.5961Sniper.5961 Member ✭✭

    This thread needs to go back up to the top, the patch hit yesterday and they didnt change anything. The state daredevil is in right now is unacceptable either they overhaul the entire class to make it fit their vision of Daredevil or they change the steal distance up to 900 or reverse the change, and admit that this idea of a bruser daredevil should be dropped because it doesnt work.

  • They should keep the range at 1200 and make it unblockable at 300 or make it 900 and make it unblockable at 600. I also wish the could make the Different Dodge abilities "F" abilities for F3 -F5 so a person could use all the different types of dodges. They should allow the Traits to have the same buff, but the abilities should be available to all Daredevils.

    Here's an idea. Allow daredevil to have their F1 be Steal at 900 range and at Swipe at 300 (which swipe would be unblockable), F2 is the stolen skill. F3 is the Impaling Lotus, evade and throw daggers, F4 is Dash evade and grants swiftness, and F5 is Bound, evade and cause area damage. Dodge would be a regular dodge. The trade off would be "All F skills would use endurance". Grandmaster Traits would be 1) Gain increased condition damage for a period of time after After using F3, 2) Inhibiting conditions and damage reduction after using F4. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain, and 3) Physical damage is increased for a period of time after using F5.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VocalThought.9835 said:
    They should keep the range at 1200 and make it unblockable at 300 or make it 900 and make it unblockable at 600. I also wish the could make the Different Dodge abilities "F" abilities for F3 -F5 so a person could use all the different types of dodges. They should allow the Traits to have the same buff, but the abilities should be available to all Daredevils.

    Here's an idea. Allow daredevil to have their F1 be Steal at 900 range and at Swipe at 300 (which swipe would be unblockable), F2 is the stolen skill. F3 is the Impaling Lotus, evade and throw daggers, F4 is Dash evade and grants swiftness, and F5 is Bound, evade and cause area damage. Dodge would be a regular dodge. The trade off would be "All F skills would use endurance". Grandmaster Traits would be 1) Gain increased condition damage for a period of time after After using F3, 2) Inhibiting conditions and damage reduction after using F4. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain, and 3) Physical damage is increased for a period of time after using F5.

    That sounds cool, but I want F6 to be my yolo self destruct button that will kill 10 ppl instantly so I can also benefit my zerg. I call it kontiking-time-bomb. It's only purpose is to sacrifice yourself to one push for your team. There is no downed after it goes off, you insta die bringing people with you. Make it 360 like arc divider. hoHohOhOhoo

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