Systems Team: Why is 15k Coalescence of Ruin fine, but 10k Full Counter needs 66% damage nerf? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Systems Team: Why is 15k Coalescence of Ruin fine, but 10k Full Counter needs 66% damage nerf?

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Comments

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    15k on 1 skill that needs barely any set up at 1200 range is far too much, even 8k or more at the interim ranges is far too high for a 1 press EZ damage that can be used as much as CoR can.

    However it sums up GW2 since expansions hit, press 1 button and get mega damage. Don't bother your brain quietly sitting on the couch turning to mush, not needed here.

    Depends on your definition of setup.
    My definition includes 25 stacks might, vuln on target, and likely the target also below 50% health.

    If you turn a corner and bump into a Rev, his CoR will hit you for about 8k. 15k out of nowhere with no setup is fake news.

  • @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    15k on 1 skill that needs barely any set up at 1200 range is far too much, even 8k or more at the interim ranges is far too high for a 1 press EZ damage that can be used as much as CoR can.

    However it sums up GW2 since expansions hit, press 1 button and get mega damage. Don't bother your brain quietly sitting on the couch turning to mush, not needed here.

    Depends on your definition of setup.
    My definition includes 25 stacks might, vuln on target, and likely the target also below 50% health.

    If you turn a corner and bump into a Rev, his CoR will hit you for about 8k. 15k out of nowhere with no setup is fake news.

    C'mon... 25 might stacks is EZmode in WvW. That's not "setup".

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    15k on 1 skill that needs barely any set up at 1200 range is far too much, even 8k or more at the interim ranges is far too high for a 1 press EZ damage that can be used as much as CoR can.

    However it sums up GW2 since expansions hit, press 1 button and get mega damage. Don't bother your brain quietly sitting on the couch turning to mush, not needed here.

    Depends on your definition of setup.
    My definition includes 25 stacks might, vuln on target, and likely the target also below 50% health.

    If you turn a corner and bump into a Rev, his CoR will hit you for about 8k. 15k out of nowhere with no setup is fake news.

    C'mon... 25 might stacks is EZmode in WvW. That's not "setup".

    If you seriously think that every revenant is walking around with a perma 25stacks of might at all times, then there is little point in continuing to discuss this. My only conclusion then is that Guild Wars 2 is just beyond your reach, and you should instead find a different game more suited to your capabilities. Maybe give Fortnight a try?

    I'm out. lol

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2019

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @crewthief.8649 said:

    @Kain Francois.4328 said:
    Others have already explained the reasoning, but I'll say something else.

    Coalescence of Ruin has a long telegraph. Furthermore, you have to be at a max range sweetpot that is very hard to hit. Meanwhile Full Count procs almost immediately as it triggers a counter. You can easily dodge one but not the other.

    One happens at melee range and has seen many nerfs, the other happens at 1200 range. You can dodge Full Counter, FYI. You aren't going to convince anyone that FC beats CoR in terms of raw damage. Now, regarding utility, FC is still a very solid skill, but it is a shadow of its former self. The over-arching theme of this thread is that FC damage was seen as too high (obviously, since its damage has been nerfed by 83% since PoF launch, as well as an increase to the cooldown), yet CoR, a skill that is initiated from 1200 range and does quite a bit more damage than FC ever has, is seen as "fine." Can you appreciate the disparity? I'm not calling for nerfs, but the OP's original point has some merit, to be completely honest.

    Thank you. I don't know why people think it's so absurd to compare the skills.

    Also, note how nowhere in this topic did I say CoR should be nerfed. Actually I think it's perfectly fine to have large damage abilities like this in play. And perhaps Full Counter was slightly dealing too much damage. A 15% reduction in damage, for example, would have been acceptable.

    The biggest problem is when you compare a skill that does absolutely nothing except for damage with a skill that does like half a dozen things at base and can be traited for another half dozen. It is apples to oranges. If you want to compare it to something, compare it to stuff like trickery steal or tempest overloads, aka other skills with massively bloated tool-tips though there really aren't any skills like full counter.

  • @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    15k on 1 skill that needs barely any set up at 1200 range is far too much, even 8k or more at the interim ranges is far too high for a 1 press EZ damage that can be used as much as CoR can.

    However it sums up GW2 since expansions hit, press 1 button and get mega damage. Don't bother your brain quietly sitting on the couch turning to mush, not needed here.

    Depends on your definition of setup.
    My definition includes 25 stacks might, vuln on target, and likely the target also below 50% health.

    If you turn a corner and bump into a Rev, his CoR will hit you for about 8k. 15k out of nowhere with no setup is fake news.

    C'mon... 25 might stacks is EZmode in WvW. That's not "setup".

    If you seriously think that every revenant is walking around with a perma 25stacks of might at all times, then there is little point in continuing to discuss this. My only conclusion then is that Guild Wars 2 is just beyond your reach, and you should instead find a different game more suited to your capabilities. Maybe give Fortnight a try?

    I'm out. lol

    Haha, ok. This topic is about blob fights and blob classes, not roaming. In a proper fight, you will easily have 25 might stacks.

  • The only time I'm hitting 15k CoR when ppl are in downed state. I've never hit a warrior for more than 6-8k with CoR. So not sure where you saw 10k+ CoRs flying after eachothers. Ranged hits hard in almost every game.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    15k on 1 skill that needs barely any set up at 1200 range is far too much, even 8k or more at the interim ranges is far too high for a 1 press EZ damage that can be used as much as CoR can.

    However it sums up GW2 since expansions hit, press 1 button and get mega damage. Don't bother your brain quietly sitting on the couch turning to mush, not needed here.

    Depends on your definition of setup.
    My definition includes 25 stacks might, vuln on target, and likely the target also below 50% health.

    If you turn a corner and bump into a Rev, his CoR will hit you for about 8k. 15k out of nowhere with no setup is fake news.

    C'mon... 25 might stacks is EZmode in WvW. That's not "setup".

    If you seriously think that every revenant is walking around with a perma 25stacks of might at all times, then there is little point in continuing to discuss this. My only conclusion then is that Guild Wars 2 is just beyond your reach, and you should instead find a different game more suited to your capabilities. Maybe give Fortnight a try?

    I'm out. lol

    Yeah I mean revs aren't walking around with perma 25 might....but it's not like it takes long to build up considering Incensed Response in WvW gives 5 might per fury so you can easily be halfway there in a few seconds and at 25 might not long after. If you want you can use burst of strength to make up the difference of having 13 might vs 25 might.

    The set up isn't taking a long time no matter which scenario you look at and in groups revs are at 25 might 100% of the time.

    The question you should be thinking about is: "Should anyone be able to stack up to 25 might without considerable time, stat and trait investment?"

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Incensed_Response

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:

    The question you should be thinking about is: "Should anyone be able to stack up to 25 might without considerable time, stat and trait investment?"

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Incensed_Response

    Well, according to Anet it's ok as long as you're not an ele.

    Edit: I may be badmouthing a bit, it is quite easy with pyromancer's puissance. But still... fire traitline, in camping fire attunement.

  • I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that.

  • @Exalted Quality.8534 said:
    I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that.

    That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Exalted Quality.8534 said:
    I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that.

    That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%.

    You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional.

  • @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Exalted Quality.8534 said:
    I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that.

    That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%.

    You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional.

    Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Exalted Quality.8534 said:
    I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that.

    That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%.

    You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional.

    Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods.

    Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison.....

  • @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Exalted Quality.8534 said:
    I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that.

    That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%.

    You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional.

    Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods.

    Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison.....

    It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it.

  • @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Exalted Quality.8534 said:
    I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that.

    That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%.

    You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional.

    Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods.

    Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison.....

    It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it.

    Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began....

    By your logic:

    Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it.

    Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times......

    And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits...

    And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated....

    Nice strawmen examples.

    You're taking those literally, whereas I'm not taking "Full Counter" literally. Using your rules, Full Counter would need to be "negates and beats anything that triggers it", whereas I'm just saying the skill name emphasizes it should be punishing. Just like Decapitate, Killshot etc put emphasis on the skill being strong.

    But again, nice job misrepresenting my argument. Glad I could correct that for you.

  • ProverbsofHell.2307ProverbsofHell.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2019

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Exalted Quality.8534 said:
    I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that.

    That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%.

    You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional.

    Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods.

    Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison.....

    It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it.

    Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began....

    By your logic:

    Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it.

    Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times......

    And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits...

    And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated....

    Nice strawmen examples.

    You're taking those literally, whereas I'm not taking "Full Counter" literally. Using your rules, Full Counter would need to be "negates and beats anything that triggers it", whereas I'm just saying the skill name emphasizes it should be punishing. Just like Decapitate, Killshot etc put emphasis on the skill being strong.

    But again, nice job misrepresenting my argument. Glad I could correct that for you.

    You didn’t correct anything, your justification for Full Counter was based on its name, so using your logic all those skills should perform as described based on their name, again that’s using the logic and your arguments you set forth, your argument was lost before it ever began trying to compare a Pseudo Invuln vs a Pure attack skill..

    You defeated yourself before you ever wrote the OP

    Sorry but nobody got defeated.

    My justification was that a skills intended effect is based on their name. Coalescence of Ruin sounds like and is a damaging skill. Just like the others we discussed. Just like Full Counter implies a hard rebuttal. This convention applies to skills across the board, representing their original intended design.

    Full Counter even has a trait which increases its damage, further supporting the fact it was intended to punish with damage.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Exalted Quality.8534 said:
    I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that.

    That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%.

    You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional.

    Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods.

    Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison.....

    It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it.

    Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began....

    By your logic:

    Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it.

    Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times......

    And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits...

    And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated....

    Nice strawmen examples.

    You're taking those literally, whereas I'm not taking "Full Counter" literally. Using your rules, Full Counter would need to be "negates and beats anything that triggers it", whereas I'm just saying the skill name emphasizes it should be punishing. Just like Decapitate, Killshot etc put emphasis on the skill being strong.

    But again, nice job misrepresenting my argument. Glad I could correct that for you.

    You didn’t correct anything, your justification for Full Counter was based on its name, so using your logic all those skills should perform as described based on their name, again that’s using the logic and your arguments you set forth, your argument was lost before it ever began trying to compare a Pseudo Invuln vs a Pure attack skill..

    You defeated yourself before you ever wrote the OP

    Sorry but nobody got defeated.

    My justification was that a skills intended effect is based on their name. Coalescence of Ruin sounds like and is a damaging skill. Just like the others we discussed. Just like Full Counter implies a hard rebuttal. This convention applies to skills across the board, representing their original intended design.

    Full Counter even has a trait which increases its damage, further supporting the fact it was intended to punish with damage.

    A counter doesn’t have to be super damaging, it just has to hinder or stop something which Full Counter does and it does Punish, it deals damage on top of a lot of other things that it can do....

    Again you lost this conversation before it ever began by Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a Pure damage skill

  • @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Exalted Quality.8534 said:
    I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that.

    That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%.

    You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional.

    Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods.

    Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison.....

    It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it.

    Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began....

    By your logic:

    Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it.

    Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times......

    And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits...

    And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated....

    Nice strawmen examples.

    You're taking those literally, whereas I'm not taking "Full Counter" literally. Using your rules, Full Counter would need to be "negates and beats anything that triggers it", whereas I'm just saying the skill name emphasizes it should be punishing. Just like Decapitate, Killshot etc put emphasis on the skill being strong.

    But again, nice job misrepresenting my argument. Glad I could correct that for you.

    You didn’t correct anything, your justification for Full Counter was based on its name, so using your logic all those skills should perform as described based on their name, again that’s using the logic and your arguments you set forth, your argument was lost before it ever began trying to compare a Pseudo Invuln vs a Pure attack skill..

    You defeated yourself before you ever wrote the OP

    Sorry but nobody got defeated.

    My justification was that a skills intended effect is based on their name. Coalescence of Ruin sounds like and is a damaging skill. Just like the others we discussed. Just like Full Counter implies a hard rebuttal. This convention applies to skills across the board, representing their original intended design.

    Full Counter even has a trait which increases its damage, further supporting the fact it was intended to punish with damage.

    A counter doesn’t have to be super damaging, it just has to hinder or stop something which Full Counter does and it does Punish, it deals damage on top of a lot of other things that it can do....

    Again you lost this conversation before it ever began by Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a Pure damage skill

    It deals less than an autoattack. In what world should a COUNTER deal less than a regular attack? You literally can't argue that point.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2019

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Exalted Quality.8534 said:
    I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that.

    That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%.

    You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional.

    Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods.

    Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison.....

    It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it.

    Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began....

    By your logic:

    Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it.

    Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times......

    And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits...

    And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated....

    Nice strawmen examples.

    You're taking those literally, whereas I'm not taking "Full Counter" literally. Using your rules, Full Counter would need to be "negates and beats anything that triggers it", whereas I'm just saying the skill name emphasizes it should be punishing. Just like Decapitate, Killshot etc put emphasis on the skill being strong.

    But again, nice job misrepresenting my argument. Glad I could correct that for you.

    You didn’t correct anything, your justification for Full Counter was based on its name, so using your logic all those skills should perform as described based on their name, again that’s using the logic and your arguments you set forth, your argument was lost before it ever began trying to compare a Pseudo Invuln vs a Pure attack skill..

    You defeated yourself before you ever wrote the OP

    Sorry but nobody got defeated.

    My justification was that a skills intended effect is based on their name. Coalescence of Ruin sounds like and is a damaging skill. Just like the others we discussed. Just like Full Counter implies a hard rebuttal. This convention applies to skills across the board, representing their original intended design.

    Full Counter even has a trait which increases its damage, further supporting the fact it was intended to punish with damage.

    A counter doesn’t have to be super damaging, it just has to hinder or stop something which Full Counter does and it does Punish, it deals damage on top of a lot of other things that it can do....

    Again you lost this conversation before it ever began by Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a Pure damage skill

    It deals less than an autoattack. In what world should a COUNTER deal less than a regular attack? You literally can't argue that point.

    Full Counter isn’t designed as to be primarily a Damage Source, it is a Psuedo Invuln skill with Damage tacked on as a Secondary as well as being an AoE CC effect..... also FC does a lot of damage for what the skill actually is, oh wow it has 0.05-0.1 less damage coefficient than some AAs oh no it’s the end of the world!!!! But wait it has 0.1 more damage coefficient than some other AAs!!!!

    Again your argument was lost before it ever began, trying to compare a Psuedo Invuln to A Damage skill. It’s extremely clear what the problem is and it’s not Full Counter.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If killshot is used against a hammer rev during CoR, the warrior deals 15k damage and the rev deals 15k damage.

    If the same killshot is used against a spellbreaker who decides to then use old FC after the animation, he takes none and deals 15k unblockable damage back and then slows, cripples, dazes, and removes a boon from up to five people, and then applies protection and stability to himself to help further negate subsequent damage on top of that.

    CoR might be busted but FC was overloaded, so something had to give. Coming from the reaper perspective where we got our sustain gutted for asinine burst, more damage is absolutely not the answer warrior is looking for in this meta.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Edge.8724Edge.8724 Member ✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Exalted Quality.8534 said:
    I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that.

    That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%.

    You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional.

    Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods.

    Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison.....

    It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it.

    Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began....

    By your logic:

    Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it.

    Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times......

    And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits...

    And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated....

    Nice strawmen examples.

    You're taking those literally, whereas I'm not taking "Full Counter" literally. Using your rules, Full Counter would need to be "negates and beats anything that triggers it", whereas I'm just saying the skill name emphasizes it should be punishing. Just like Decapitate, Killshot etc put emphasis on the skill being strong.

    But again, nice job misrepresenting my argument. Glad I could correct that for you.

    You didn’t correct anything, your justification for Full Counter was based on its name, so using your logic all those skills should perform as described based on their name, again that’s using the logic and your arguments you set forth, your argument was lost before it ever began trying to compare a Pseudo Invuln vs a Pure attack skill..

    You defeated yourself before you ever wrote the OP

    Sorry but nobody got defeated.

    My justification was that a skills intended effect is based on their name. Coalescence of Ruin sounds like and is a damaging skill. Just like the others we discussed. Just like Full Counter implies a hard rebuttal. This convention applies to skills across the board, representing their original intended design.

    Full Counter even has a trait which increases its damage, further supporting the fact it was intended to punish with damage.

    A counter doesn’t have to be super damaging, it just has to hinder or stop something which Full Counter does and it does Punish, it deals damage on top of a lot of other things that it can do....

    Again you lost this conversation before it ever began by Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a Pure damage skill

    I'm a bit curious. What are the so many things a Full Counter can do? To me, it's just a mini evade that lasts 0,5 second and then a mini unblockable aoe attack. Oh, maybe the interrupt is nice... Or were you talking about that one stack of 2 seconds stability? As an Elite Specialisation mechanic, it failed to impress me.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Edge.8724 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Exalted Quality.8534 said:
    I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that.

    That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%.

    You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional.

    Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods.

    Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison.....

    It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it.

    Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began....

    By your logic:

    Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it.

    Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times......

    And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits...

    And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated....

    Nice strawmen examples.

    You're taking those literally, whereas I'm not taking "Full Counter" literally. Using your rules, Full Counter would need to be "negates and beats anything that triggers it", whereas I'm just saying the skill name emphasizes it should be punishing. Just like Decapitate, Killshot etc put emphasis on the skill being strong.

    But again, nice job misrepresenting my argument. Glad I could correct that for you.

    You didn’t correct anything, your justification for Full Counter was based on its name, so using your logic all those skills should perform as described based on their name, again that’s using the logic and your arguments you set forth, your argument was lost before it ever began trying to compare a Pseudo Invuln vs a Pure attack skill..

    You defeated yourself before you ever wrote the OP

    Sorry but nobody got defeated.

    My justification was that a skills intended effect is based on their name. Coalescence of Ruin sounds like and is a damaging skill. Just like the others we discussed. Just like Full Counter implies a hard rebuttal. This convention applies to skills across the board, representing their original intended design.

    Full Counter even has a trait which increases its damage, further supporting the fact it was intended to punish with damage.

    A counter doesn’t have to be super damaging, it just has to hinder or stop something which Full Counter does and it does Punish, it deals damage on top of a lot of other things that it can do....

    Again you lost this conversation before it ever began by Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a Pure damage skill

    I'm a bit curious. What are the so many things a Full Counter can do? To me, it's just a mini evade that lasts 0,5 second and then a mini unblockable aoe attack. Oh, maybe the interrupt is nice... Or were you talking about that one stack of 2 seconds stability? As an Elite Specialisation mechanic, it failed to impress me.

    You just answered your question. It does all of that with no trait/skill investment. It doesn't need to be impressive, it needs to be balanced.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • SASHI.7260SASHI.7260 Member ✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @steki.1478 said:
    You just answered your question. It does all of that with no trait/skill investment. It doesn't need to be impressive, it needs to be balanced.

    I know this was explained already by someone in this forum (kinda forgot if its on the warrior section or in the general profession section) but I will try to "list" those skills most people are saying about Full Counter and how OP they are

    Let's start with the basic, The NO Trait Full Counter. (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Full_Counter)

    Damage : This is already self explanatory
    Damage Reduction : This is needed to "absorb" the Damage promoting a "Counter" like response. Much like if you block something (its not full counter if you get hit also right? it should be called Damage Exchange or something. We can chalk this up as a way to make the skill "relevant" to its theme)
    Stability: Again, this is needed so that the counter animation actually connects. Its a 1 Stability Stack that last 2 seconds (which is around the same time Full Counter animation goes including the after cast.) Would look very lame if you countered only to get CC mid "counter"
    Counterattack Evasion : This is a follow up to that Damage Reduction and helps the Stability. This is so that the skill would actually hit. and it only last for half a second (0.5 seconds)
    Daze : This is is actually more of a thematic effect. It's more like, you'll get dazed if your attack gets countered right? even if a split seconds? I really believe this is the reasoning for having this effect on it
    Unblockable : Also need for the skill to actually hit once triggered. Full counter would look like silly if the attack you just countered gets block half a second later (I really think its is a thematic effect also to make it look like you countered / punish an attack)

    If you look at it on a birds eye view, the skill effect of the Full Counter revolves on how an actual counter attack works in real life. most of it is thematic in purpose and only last for half a second to 2 at most (which is the stability) hence why its a bit unreasonable to use this as an argument (as it is - not traited) on how OP Full Counter is (and believe me, it gets way worst down below)

    Now, lets go with traits (you can choose only one of each so don't be greedy)

    Adept:
    1) Guard Counter (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guard_Counter) to get a protection buff
    2) No Escape (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/No_Escape) to "lock down" your enemy via immobilization after a successful counter since daze triggers this

    Major:
    1) Loss Aversion (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Loss_Aversion) for more Damage after removing a boon
    2) Slow Counter (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slow_Counter), to apply cripple and slow

    Grandmaster:
    1) Enchantment Collapse (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enchantment_Collapse) removes boon from other enemy (not including the main target of the boon strip)
    2) Revenge Counter (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revenge_Counter) copies the Condition that the Spellbreaker has to its target (it does NOT TRANSFER, just COPIES) and increases your Full Counter Damage by 20%

    The main culprit on why Full counter seems so powerful for a single skill with a 12 second CD is that it has the perfect synergy with these 4 key traits on a warrior
    1) Berserker's Power (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Berserker's_Power) - a Damage Modifier of 7%, 14% and 21% depending on the stacks
    2) Adrenal Health (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Health) - a semi passive recovery trait (you actually need to land a burst to activate this hence the semi part)
    3) Cleansing Ire (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Ire) - Condi Cleansing (lessen condi pressure on certain fights)
    4) Attackers Insight (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attacker's_Insight) - Refreshes F1 aside from gaining Flat Damage Stat.

    These means, landing that full counter with the above mentioned skill description + traits makes it looks OP and does so many things but in reality, its no different from having aegis and popping an F1 burst on an enemy.

    The only difference between these 2 scenario (Hitting with full counter VS with a F1 burst) is that you don't get to remove a boon, get Attacker's Insight and no 20% dmge increase (and condi copy) if you did it with F1 (unless your on a dagger then the 20% dmge increase on full counter + copy is the difference)

    The only saving grace on full counter is that it needs to be triggered by an enemy attack (any on this case). BUT with the AOE Spam and almost seemingly endless source of damage in a fight, that saving graces goes bye bye unless its a 1v1 duel between players that actually knows what to do. Hence why some people call warrior as the "noob checker" since it punishes skill spamming more (also why a lot of people complain cause they can't skill spam on a Spellbreaker)

    So, what's the point of this seemingly long post about how Full Counter works? It's so that everyone can have a better understanding on what Full Counter can and cannot do and why it looks OP from other people's perspective yet seemingly weak on a warrior main's perspective.

    And no, this is not me agreeing to anything. All I can say, Full Counter was a bad design for warrior on Spellbreaker specialization since it FOCUSED on that 1 skill and that 1 skill alone (they had to sacrifice Berseker's instant T3 burst just for this). The Boon removal / denial / hate is kinda weak if you ask me with how much boon spam is happening and how its easy to re apply boons on most classes. It might work in some PvE aspect or a 1v1 Dueling aspect in design but definitely not every aspect this game can provide.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    We need 15k CoR‘s.
    How else are we supposed to kill all these scourges?

    Power Soulbeasts.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2019

    COR damage was nerfed and it was only 2sec CD, now it 4sec.
    CoR is only strong in Zerg cause most skills visual clutter will hide cor animation, besides most flying damage hitting won’t be rendered besides the red circles...

    Aoe spam and huge visual clutter frongame design is what maker cor work inzergs

  • This was a needed nerf. Warriors have had to good of a history for being overpowered.

    Anytime something is released for a warrior anet needs to ask is this overpowered? If they hesitate even a little it needs nerfing

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