Does anyone think that Revealed Training and Leeching Venoms traits should be swapped in locations?

[PurpsJL.4381]

This has just been something that has been bothering me awhile.

The trait Revealed Training (gives 200 power when revealed) is in the trait line based around poisons and the trait Leeching Venoms (gives venom skills life siphoning and cooldown reduction) is in the trait line for stealth. Aren't they kinda in opposite spots?

Now I already know not everyone would agree with this as it would ruin some builds because of how the traits are currently setup but just the logic behind it baffles me a bit.

I just honestly feel like they should be in the other's trait line as Revealed Training involves stealth (or the after effects of stealth) and Leeching Venoms involves poisons that would fit into deadly arts. I mean they are actually in the exact same spot in both trait lines.

This is just my opinion, mind you, but let me know what you think about this.

[Josif.2015]

@PurpsJL.4381 said:This has just been something that has been bothering me awhile.

The trait Revealed Training (gives 200 power when revealed) is in the trait line based around poisons and the trait Leeching Venoms (gives venom skills life siphoning and cooldown reduction) is in the trait line for stealth. Aren't they kinda in opposite spots?

Now I already know not everyone would agree with this as it would ruin some builds because of how the traits are currently setup but just the logic behind it baffles me a bit.

I just honestly feel like they should be in the other's trait line as Revealed Training involves stealth (or the after effects of stealth) and Leeching Venoms involves poisons that would fit into deadly arts. I mean they are actually in the exact same spot in both trait lines.

This is just my opinion, mind you, but let me know what you think about this.

I was thinking the same thing. Funny how nobody at ArenaNet noticed this.

[Platanos.8107]

Yes. I also agree that they should be swapped

[ZDragon.3046]

It makes sense to swap them. Why it has not been done is likely how anet considers the professions to use magic.

Deadly arts implies that you use your talents to perform the most deadly actions and combat tactics that you can. It also implys more physical training and crafting or even being able to turn the fight around at any moments notice rather than magic use. While without a doubt the theif does use some magic within deadly arts its likely more related crafting your toxins, traps, and boosting your tactical dominance. While poisons are apart of this it does not mean that those unique venoms must fit into it. While I do agree many aspects of venoms in their own right can fit into whats considered "Deadly Arts" What the trait for them does is not something I would consider to be a deadly art.

Sense all venom's are not linked to directly to the poison condition deadly arts likely wouldnt effect all of them. At best if the trait was in deadly arts it would make their efficiency/damage improve via some sort of refinement from crafting them to be deadlier not give them a leeching effect

When it comes to revealed training it could be considered something done as a deadly art. You train yourself to fight harder/better when you are revealed which could be considered a deadly art.

---

What anet considers to be shadow arts could be considered more magic than physical training while it does grant a ton of benefits for being in stealth consider this its not simply only about stealth. Its shadow magic... The key word here being magic, the bonuses you get from these traits are by far the most unnatural of any of the core thief traits. You can hide yourself better, clear deadly and damaging conditions, and even regenerate damage. No matter how hard you train your body, or how much science you put into a venom it will not leech health from the person you apply it to without some kind of magic. This is where Shadow arts comes into play. Shadow magic causes the leeching to happen.

So your venoms are enhanced with shadow magic which allows them to gain a semi necro prowess effect. Thus giving them the power to sap the health from the foes you apply them on.

If revealed training was placed here it would likely become some sort of defensive trait that applies only under the revealed status or perhaps shortened the base reveal time at best rather than gaining 200 power through the shadow magic of shadow arts.

I have to imagine this is how anet thinks of it as we have had confirmation that all professions in the game use magic they just do so in different ways even warriors. This is the reason the traits are in the current positions and why they never got swapped

Although again I wouldn't be opposed to swapping them ive always wanted to try a build with the healing venom to be honest :P Just doing so with shadow arts seems gimmicky

[Wargameur.6950]

We made several threads similar to this one on the old forum. I don't think a dev ever answered to that question. My guess is that the synergy would be too strong...

[babazhook.6805]

I think part of the issue is that various types of builds should gain some benefis from a given trait line that helps to enhance the damage their build can do. As example CS has little for a Condition build. Acro has little for a Condition build. Those lines are usually avoided for that reason.

TR has stuff for both condition and power builds so both types equally served when taking it. What you are doing when you swap Revealed training with Leeching is say in essence "No matter which trait line taken a power build can find options that increase their damage out but a Condition build will be limited to one traitline"

[bq pd.2148]

@"babazhook.6805" said:I think part of the issue is that various types of builds should gain some benefis from a given trait line that helps to enhance the damage their build can do. As example CS has little for a Condition build. Acro has little for a Condition build. Those lines are usually avoided for that reason.

TR has stuff for both condition and power builds so both types equally served when taking it. What you are doing when you swap Revealed training with Leeching is say in essence "No matter which trait line taken a power build can find options that increase their damage out but a Condition build will be limited to one traitline"

the revealed trainig could add power and expertise once in SA. so then SA would lose one condi trait for CD reduction on venoms but gain one being revealed.i dont think condi damage would fit for 3sec revealed as condis are not bursting so a burst stat increase cannot be used as much but with expertise any condition applied during reveal would benefit.

[Bramymond.7689]

@PurpsJL.4381

Deadly arts is a generalist offensive line. Removing revealed training would rob power thieves off a viable trait there, since it’s also where 2 other important modifiers are. +10% to foes with a condition and +20% to enemies below 50% HP. Daredevil may rarely use revealed training, but it’s core to d/d deadeye and vanilla thief dps.

Shadow arts is a defensive line with sustain, so it makes sense for it to have a trait that offers sustain to players that prefer a condition dmg playstyle aswell, hence leeching venom. SA gives u benefits by staying stealthed, like loosing conditions, gaining health and initiative or helping u rezz your teammates. Revealed training doesn’t belong there, because it’s an offensive buff for going OUT of stealth and into combat.

Every profession has 2 offense lines (critical strikes and deadly arts), 2 defensive lines (shadow arts and acrobatic) and 1 line for general utility and improvements (trickery). It usually always follows that basic premise.

[eldrjth.7384]

@Wargameur.6950 said:We made several threads similar to this one on the old forum. I don't think a dev ever answered to that question. My guess is that the synergy would be too strong...

I think SA is subpar atm but deadly arts is in a nice spot for both condition and power dmg so moving traits around would more balance them out. It would benefit condition thief which is not in great shape anyway (this could be the buff it needs tbh) at the cost of reducing power dmg for rifle/DE who uses the reveal training. Since rifle is already in a poor state and in the midst of a rework I think now is the time to move the traits where they belong before trying to get the dps balance where it needs to be since moving traits around is a lot easier than adjusting weapon dmg, redesigning them/or changing elite mechanics.

[Aavataris.5720]

Plz! put Venoms trait in Mortal Arts, or other tree ...but no in Shadow Arts! Its a waste.

[Exitus.3297]

I get where the OP is coming from, but just because it has to do with stealth doesn't mean it should automatically belong to Shadow Arts. It's like saying that Mug and Swindler's Equilibrium should belong in Trickery because Trickery is the traitline that primarily revolves around buffing Steal. It's good to mix it up a little for the sake of build diversity.

Since HoTs I've basically viewed Shadow Arts as a supportive/defensive traitline. Venoms apply in an AoE and Leeching Venoms gives them Lifesteal procs, making the Thief somewhat of a healer in some bizarre sense if they decide to build around it (Skelk Venom is actually deceptively strong with this trait when you build for Healing Power). By that specific logic it makes perfect sense for it to be where it is, but maybe not in other senses.

[ParanoidKami.2867]

@PurpsJL.4381 said:This has just been something that has been bothering me awhile.

The trait Revealed Training (gives 200 power when revealed) is in the trait line based around poisons and the trait Leeching Venoms (gives venom skills life siphoning and cooldown reduction) is in the trait line for stealth. Aren't they kinda in opposite spots?

Now I already know not everyone would agree with this as it would ruin some builds because of how the traits are currently setup but just the logic behind it baffles me a bit.

I just honestly feel like they should be in the other's trait line as Revealed Training involves stealth (or the after effects of stealth) and Leeching Venoms involves poisons that would fit into deadly arts. I mean they are actually in the exact same spot in both trait lines.

This is just my opinion, mind you, but let me know what you think about this.

Bad idea for power stealth builds. You need Hidden Thief so you can stealth backstab and Revealed training for after. Also, good synergy with Basi elite. Or when people reveal you so you aren't completely useless without your stealth. Revealed Training fits in perfectly where it is.

[Aavataris.5720]

2 simple ideas so that the Venoms trait (Leeching Venoms) stops being wasted:https://ibb.co/4MHSXzb

In Art of the Shadows is totally wasting, worst it means sacrificing Stealth skills for Poison skills, without working with the stealth traits.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@PurpsJL.4381 said:This has just been something that has been bothering me awhile.

The trait Revealed Training (gives 200 power when revealed) is in the trait line based around poisons and the trait Leeching Venoms (gives venom skills life siphoning and cooldown reduction) is in the trait line for stealth. Aren't they kinda in opposite spots?

Now I already know not everyone would agree with this as it would ruin some builds because of how the traits are currently setup but just the logic behind it baffles me a bit.

I just honestly feel like they should be in the other's trait line as Revealed Training involves stealth (or the after effects of stealth) and Leeching Venoms involves poisons that would fit into deadly arts. I mean they are actually in the exact same spot in both trait lines.

This is just my opinion, mind you, but let me know what you think about this.

Not all Venom applies poison nor a Shadow Art will train for being Revealed. Think about it.

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

The funny part is that they did use to be swapped like the OP says, and they were moved to their current positions ~3 years ago. The forums lit up back then asking for an explanation, but we never did get one. *Shrug