War Eternal.. Not available in your region.. again

[Ashantara.8731]

@"Syrus.2174" said:Don't hate on the country finally setting up laws against gambling in games, hate on the companies still continuing with it, and not offering alternatives, despite some people not being able to "participate".

This. I wouldn't mind if all RNG content was banned from GW2's Gem Store, to be honest.

[sewenewes.4176]

You can use a VPN to get around the ban, if you wish.

@Yamazuki.6073 said:In regards to children, this is their parent's fault, not developers. It's already been shown the use of technology on its own is poor for children, never mind playing games excessively; and if they're buying loot boxes, I wonder just how low effort their parents put into monitoring their kids.

The parents whose children fall victim to such business practices tend to be the ones who can't physically be with said children for most of the day due to working excessive amounts of time. Not because they enjoy their job(s) so much but because they desperately need the income. We could argue about the ethics of having children while not being able to properly care for them but that's better discussed somewhere else. Regardless, that's the reality an ever increasing number of parents face. Money doesn't buy love but love doesn't buy bread. So millions of children are left to be raised by their teachers if they're lucky, or by the television and internet if they're unlucky.

Society can't expect parents to raise their children well if they aren't given the opportunity of actually being there to raise them.

I support all governmental attempts to protect and help the vulnerable (not just children!) but unfortunately that's almost never the main goal of any legislation; merely a positive side-effect that also looks good in political campaigns. The Belgian government isn't trying to help anyone but themselves with this as they just want a cut from those fat gambling profits. If Arenanet subjected themselves to those laws they wouldn't actually have to take out gambling from their gemstore. Merely pay a higher tax and maybe, but just maybe, slap an age rating of eighteen on their game.

[Cobra.6509]

+1 for Belgium.I hope more countries from Europe(mine included) will follow Belgium example.

[mercury ranique.2170]

@Jojo.6140 said:Its quite interesting, i remember that Belgium got a lot of praise by gamers when they introduced that anti-lootbox law. But lately what i read from Belgium Players is not that positive. In the end, they have to suffer under their choices being limited.

For a solution, idk what the ToS says about VPN. In case its allowed, you could try using one to make the purchase.

afaik there is nothing in the ToS that allows or disallows the use of aVPN. It is even an advice given to bypass any bad routing when connecting to the game. It also would not mean that Arenanet would get into trouble. They have active measures to uphold the regional laws and regulations, and it is the customer bypassing these measures. So yip, it is a good solution.

[Samnang.1879]

wait, so some ppl in europe r not allowed to buy BL chest keys? OMG i feel sorry for them... its so fun to open BL chests, and sometimes i get more value for my bucks example i aim for a mount skin, but i get mount skin and a new glider skin

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Astraea.6075 said:So much misinformation, so little time...

Firstly, Belgium did not enact any new laws but the existing regulator made a determination that video game lootboxes were covered by existing laws. In theory, this determination could be challenged and overturned, but it's unlikely that any video game publisher would attempt to do so given the potential for negative PR.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the big bad wolf of gaming industry, EA themselves, were primed to challenge the determination back in its early days. But after pouting for a few months, they eventually decided against it and gave in. Keep in mind that the ban in a couple European countries is more impactful for EA than other companies because of their golden goose, FIFA Ultimate Team. The bulk of revenue from FIFA comes from European countries after all. And since EA is the last company to ever leave money on the table, if they can help it, I'm not sure the odds of overturning the decision were ever in their favor.

@Astraea.6075 said:While there is a solid case that can be made about protecting minors from exposure to "gambling" of any form, my personal observation is that children are already being targeted by toy manufacturers with various "collectible" toys sold in blind bags/boxes, which seems to me to be a more insidious issue than lootboxes in videogames.

The gaming industry took the "blind bag" concept you mentioned and turned it to 11 in their video games. It's far more insidious than the physical counterpart because of the very nature of digital sales, allowing for easier exploitation. Not to mention all the ways one can employ marketing psychology, carefully disguised behind gameplay to entice (coerce) purchases. If you really want to see insidious, google "Activision patent", no physical bag will ever compare to that.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

The whole RNG aspect bought with real money should be banned for the whole gaming industry. It's a dishonest money making method to gain revenue and the industry - especially in mobile gaming in Asia - is making a shitton of money with these despicable methods.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Just saying...if parents can't physically be with their children because they need the income from working 'excessive hours', perhaps it would be best to refrain from giving said children their credit card/access to their PayPal account, etc.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Just saying...if parents can't physically be with their children because they need the income from working 'excessive hours', perhaps it would be best to refrain from giving said children their credit card/access to their PayPal account, etc.

That's definitely true. But the primary focus should be on the ones trying to exploit instead of the ones allowing themselves to be exploited. Otherwise it would be like focusing on the person leaving their door unlocked instead of the burglar breaking in.

Children aren't the only target of the practice anyway. Gambling addiction is a thing and the behavioral patterns observed from excessive lootbox spending are near identical.

[Arzurag.7506]

It´s about time that other countries follow suit and declare any kind of gambling/rng-lootboxes as prohibited. Doesn´t matter if you get "something" when opening a lootbox, the player/costumer/consumer should always be able to chose what he/she buys with his money, which doesn´t include buying "chances".

Unfortunately, anything gaming-related is still seen as kind of irrelevant. It´s also time that games get acknowledged as a legitimate piece of medial entertainment.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@"Syrus.2174" said:Don't hate on the country finally setting up laws against gambling in games, hate on the companies still continuing with it, and not offering alternatives, despite some people not being able to "participate".

Because the "exclude the people who's government bans gambling in video games"-tactic seems to be working quite well for them; they make the players push against those laws despite how necessary they actually should be. Gambling is a slippery slope, which children should have no access to, even as an adult I consider it dangerous terrain where you can lose track of how much you actually spend quite quickly.

While I cannot and will not tell adults how or where to spend their money, laws banning gambling in games (especially those targeted at a younger audience, which MMOs usually are), are in now way a bad thing. The "unfair treatment" you feel just isn't because of the laws in a way, but the game companies' unwillingness to stop making children gamble with real life money.

If more countries took a move against this rampant loot box gambling, though hopefully with clear lines of where it starts ..., game companies would have to rethink their sales models and would HAVE to offer alternatives.

The average age of an MMO player is 26.

Children are not the target audience of mmo developers.

The average age means nothing.. many of those of average age began their MMO life much earlier.. so by now it might well be possible some are already addicted.Addiction to gambling doesn't start at some deemed average age gamer.. it starts much sooner.. check out some of those studies and stats and you might begin to understand. Children are most definitely part of that target audience otherwise the age requirements would be higher for products like GW2 etc.Add to that just because overall there might be some perceived average, each MMO / business has their own targeted criteria, though more likely they seek to target as many as possible across as wider demographic as possible not be reliant on a single age group.

[Zaklex.6308]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Syrus.2174" said:Don't hate on the country finally setting up laws against gambling in games, hate on the companies still continuing with it, and not offering alternatives, despite some people not being able to "participate".

Because the "exclude the people who's government bans gambling in video games"-tactic seems to be working quite well for them; they make the players push against those laws despite how necessary they actually should be. Gambling is a slippery slope, which children should have no access to, even as an adult I consider it dangerous terrain where you can lose track of how much you actually spend quite quickly.

While I cannot and will not tell adults how or where to spend their money, laws banning gambling in games (especially those targeted at a younger audience, which MMOs usually are), are in now way a bad thing. The "unfair treatment" you feel just isn't because of the laws in a way, but the game companies' unwillingness to stop making children gamble with real life money.

If more countries took a move against this rampant loot box gambling, though hopefully with clear lines of where it starts ..., game companies would have to rethink their sales models and would HAVE to offer alternatives.

This.

Unfortunately early adopters are punished (or rather better protected) from unhealthy practices. Game companies can still make enough money by ignoring the few countries with very strict anti loot box laws. Once a critical mass is reached, the entire industry is going to flip. It's slowly happening in some areas already. Just look at how important it is to EA PR speak to always include the no loot boxes phrase on new titles.

Some established titles are moving and shifting their micro-transactions to be more in line with less predatory practices.

Stop with the false gambling narrative, it's not gambling...only in the loosest sense of the term, if you wanted to go with the strictest sense it definitely isn't gambling, because in the strictest sense you could spend money and get absolutely nothing...in this case you're guaranteed something, whether it's something you want or not doesn't matter, you win, there fore it's not gambling, simple as that. It's not my fault or any companies fault if certain people and countries don't understand this. Unfortunately the only reason Belgium went and said loot boxes were gambling is because of the extreme route EA went with SW:BF2(putting some of the best items behind randomness in loot boxes, if they had only included cosmetic items we wouldn't be at this stage)...it's that simple. Now we shouldn't derail this thread by going off on the tangent of what is and isn't gambling, everyone will have a difference of opinion, mine just happens to be based on fact(not based on how it stimulates areas of the brain, which is totally not the point and a ridiculous reason).

You actually made it quite clear why Belgium did it.. now consider what you value most out of BLC's.. and how you get them.. it is gambling in any sense of the term because it uses predatory practices to attempt to get players (of all ages, but including those considered under age) to play the game of chance in the hope they get that one shiny they seek. ANET have at least gone down the route of pushing out guaranteed returns and "choose your mount" options for various packs, but more could and should be done.If other countries begin to take a hardened look at these types of gambling mechanics like Belgium (and there are others already engaged in that process) then it may well come to head and force ANET to actually rethink their loot box strategy … until then spend responsibly and read before you buy is all.

**> EDIT - There are some interesting studies and statistics that have been put out for general consumption in regards to online gambling and more notably underage gambling.. google is your friend if you want to see just how easy it has become for certain demographics to get into addictive levels of gambling from both online gaming and online betting and the trend is upward.

That said.. it is not just ANET who should be making the effort to safeguard against such things happening within their product, personal responsibility is mustard, but those deemed underage are so for good reasons, therefor parents must shoulder the responsibility for this as well.**

First off, I don't care about the studies and certain demographics...it's not just about personal responsibility, it's also genetics, the government should stay out of trying to solve the gambling problem and stay out of how parents do or do not actually parent their children. Does gambling cause monetary and social issues, yes, but that is only the fault of the individual, not some outside source(even for those that "can't control" themselves). Same goes for the parents that refuse to monitor and control what their children do and spend money on, these should be teaching moments, but a lot of parents today just don't want to parent, they want the government to do it for them.

P.S., I personally don't care whether I get those ultra rare items from BLTC or not, everything is just a virtual item anyways, and some of it is trash and the rest I'll either use or just sell on the TP for even minimum amounts of silver/gold, if I get lucky and get a rare item, great, if not, no big deal...it's my money and I choose to spend it how I want, I'm not enamored of the big shiny item...otherwise I'd have made at least a Legendary and tried to get some of the other so called "prestige" items. I just get what I like.

[lare.5129]

Why ANET should care about that and fight for your right in small country? If someone live may be in nondemocratic Belgium where all people want play and buy, but can't, so why global world company should think about that?I think if something happen for ANET is more easy close all possibility connect from Belgium, but not change something. Do you want this? The changes should come from Belgium people. I don't know have you any elections, and possibility to change something there but I am sure that this is not ANET problem.Also I am know that some companies don't like player from VPN, so before use it check is it permitted for ANET.

[derd.6413]

@lare.5129 said:Why ANET should care about that and fight for your right in small country? If someone live may be in nondemocratic Belgium where all people want play and buy, but can't, so why global world company should think about that?I think if something happen for ANET is more easy close all possibility connect from Belgium, but not change something. Do you want this? The changes should come from Belgium people. I don't know have you any elections, and possibility to change something there but I am sure that this is not ANET problem.Also I am know that some companies don't like player from VPN, so before use it check is it permitted for ANET.

did you use google translate to write that because i don't understand what you just wrote?

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Syrus.2174" said:Don't hate on the country finally setting up laws against gambling in games, hate on the companies still continuing with it, and not offering alternatives, despite some people not being able to "participate".

Because the "exclude the people who's government bans gambling in video games"-tactic seems to be working quite well for them; they make the players push against those laws despite how necessary they actually should be. Gambling is a slippery slope, which children should have no access to, even as an adult I consider it dangerous terrain where you can lose track of how much you actually spend quite quickly.

While I cannot and will not tell adults how or where to spend their money, laws banning gambling in games (especially those targeted at a younger audience, which MMOs usually are), are in now way a bad thing. The "unfair treatment" you feel just isn't because of the laws in a way, but the game companies' unwillingness to stop making children gamble with real life money.

If more countries took a move against this rampant loot box gambling, though hopefully with clear lines of where it starts ..., game companies would have to rethink their sales models and would HAVE to offer alternatives.

This.

Unfortunately early adopters are punished (or rather better protected) from unhealthy practices. Game companies can still make enough money by ignoring the few countries with very strict anti loot box laws. Once a critical mass is reached, the entire industry is going to flip. It's slowly happening in some areas already. Just look at how important it is to EA PR speak to always include the no loot boxes phrase on new titles.

Some established titles are moving and shifting their micro-transactions to be more in line with less predatory practices.

Stop with the false gambling narrative, it's not gambling...only in the loosest sense of the term, if you wanted to go with the strictest sense it definitely isn't gambling, because in the strictest sense you could spend money and get absolutely nothing...in this case you're guaranteed something, whether it's something you want or not doesn't matter, you win, there fore it's not gambling, simple as that. It's not my fault or any companies fault if certain people and countries don't understand this. Unfortunately the only reason Belgium went and said loot boxes were gambling is because of the extreme route EA went with SW:BF2(putting some of the best items behind randomness in loot boxes, if they had only included cosmetic items we wouldn't be at this stage)...it's that simple. Now we shouldn't derail this thread by going off on the tangent of what is and isn't gambling, everyone will have a difference of opinion, mine just happens to be based on fact(not based on how it stimulates areas of the brain, which is totally not the point and a ridiculous reason).

You actually made it quite clear why Belgium did it.. now consider what you value most out of BLC's.. and how you get them.. it is gambling in any sense of the term because it uses predatory practices to attempt to get players (of all ages, but including those considered under age) to play the game of chance in the hope they get that one shiny they seek. ANET have at least gone down the route of pushing out guaranteed returns and "choose your mount" options for various packs, but more could and should be done.If other countries begin to take a hardened look at these types of gambling mechanics like Belgium (and there are others already engaged in that process) then it may well come to head and force ANET to actually rethink their loot box strategy … until then spend responsibly and read before you buy is all.

**> EDIT - There are some interesting studies and statistics that have been put out for general consumption in regards to online gambling and more notably underage gambling.. google is your friend if you want to see just how easy it has become for certain demographics to get into addictive levels of gambling from both online gaming and online betting and the trend is upward.

That said.. it is not just ANET who should be making the effort to safeguard against such things happening within their product, personal responsibility is mustard, but those deemed underage are so for good reasons, therefor parents must shoulder the responsibility for this as well.**

First off, I don't care about the studies and certain demographics...it's not just about personal responsibility, it's also genetics, the government should stay out of trying to solve the gambling problem and stay out of how parents do or do not actually parent their children. Does gambling cause monetary and social issues, yes, but that is only the fault of the individual, not some outside source(even for those that "can't control" themselves). Same goes for the parents that refuse to monitor and control what their children do and spend money on, these should be teaching moments, but a lot of parents today just don't want to parent, they want the government to do it for them.

P.S., I personally don't care whether I get those ultra rare items from BLTC or not, everything is just a virtual item anyways, and some of it is trash and the rest I'll either use or just sell on the TP for even minimum amounts of silver/gold, if I get lucky and get a rare item, great, if not, no big deal...it's my money and I choose to spend it how I want, I'm not enamored of the big shiny item...otherwise I'd have made at least a Legendary and tried to get some of the other so called "prestige" items. I just get what I like.

So full of fail, it hurts the eyes just reading all that.

Gambling addiction whilst on the face of it might appear to be a personal issue, but that can very quickly become a much larger issue including crime and that can affect many others in ways you would not even want to imagine. As for underage gambling.. why do you think they are considered underage? who is responsible for minors where you live?

BTW this is not about you or I it's about the wider scale of the issue, no one cares if you have no interest in BLC shinnies that is not the point of the discussion at all, neither do I for that matter, but unfortunately not everyone thinks or acts that way. The fact you have no interest in the issues or the very real stats that are appearing on this topic is your choice and that's fine, but to just dismiss the issue like you seemingly do only adds to the very real problem that is growing. Interestingly enough there was a further paper submitted just yesterday into the UK government in relation to underage online gambling, which thankfully shows there are some out there that do want to help tackle the issue in ways a little more seriously than "not my problem, I am cool with it".That said.. ignorance can be bliss I guess.

[lare.5129]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:Gambling addiction whilst on the face of it might appear to be a personal issue, but that can very quickly become a much larger issue including crime and that can affect many others in ways you would not even want to imagine. As for underage gambling.. why do you think they are considered underage? who is responsible for minors where you live?This is not problem for ANET, and not a problem at all. This is benefit. Benefit wiht issue only that penalty is so softly, that give people mind get risk.Why in last trip ib Dubai no one touch my baggage near road when I eat in cafe? Again - I sm sure that is not anet problem

[yann.1946]

While I agree that their should be regulations In regards to gambling. Their are some caveats:

Prohibiting is just a bad idea.I doesn't protect the addicted and the children will still be introduced to gambling by mtg and kinder surprise for example.And it blocks the people who just do it for their enjoyment.

Parents are also responsible for the spending behavior of their children.And while the state has some responsibility in the matter the question remains why is everyone allowed to get pregnant but not to adopt?

[Ayakaru.6583]

@lare.5129 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:Gambling addiction whilst on the face of it might appear to be a personal issue, but that can very quickly become a much larger issue including crime and that can affect many others in ways you would not even want to imagine. As for underage gambling.. why do you think they are considered underage? who is responsible for minors where you live?This is not problem for ANET, and not a problem at all. This is benefit. Benefit wiht issue only that penalty is so softly, that give people mind get risk.Why in last trip ib Dubai no one touch my baggage near road when I eat in cafe? Again - I sm sure that is not anet problem

How is underage gambling not an issue for anet?Is a problem for everyone and anyone providing and promoting it.Even actively denying there's a problem is good for the problem

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@"yann.1946" said:While I agree that their should be regulations In regards to gambling. Their are some caveats:

Prohibiting is just a bad idea.I doesn't protect the addicted and the children will still be introduced to gambling by mtg and kinder surprise for example.And it blocks the people who just do it for their enjoyment.

Parents are also responsible for the spending behavior of their children.And while the state has some responsibility in the matter the question remains why is everyone allowed to get pregnant but not to adopt?

Personal responsibility is important but it's a government's duty to inform and warn the unsuspecting. And after that's done they should be allowed to make their own choices.

Nobody (including Belgium) is asking for a blanket ban on lootboxes. Gaming studios are simply asked to adhere to existing online gambling legislation (it's allowed in Europe). To me, an adult rating and a visible disclaimer in all promos, just like online gambling sites do, is a fair compromise.

The gaming industry though, greedy as it is, wants no compromise. They want their cake and eat it too, mostly because over the past decade their business has exploded by preying on that addiction. They chose to ban lootboxes themselves, in hopes players from said countries turn on their governments in frustration.

If one good thing has come from the current "gamer rage" culture in social media, it's the gaming industry being forced to tread carefully. If EA was forced to "retreat", during the BF fiasco, no studio is safe to scheme and exploit in peace.

[yann.1946]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@"yann.1946" said:While I agree that their should be regulations In regards to gambling. Their are some caveats:

Prohibiting is just a bad idea.I doesn't protect the addicted and the children will still be introduced to gambling by mtg and kinder surprise for example.And it blocks the people who just do it for their enjoyment.

Parents are also responsible for the spending behavior of their children.And while the state has some responsibility in the matter the question remains why is everyone allowed to get pregnant but not to adopt?

Personal responsibility is important but it's a government's duty to inform and warn the unsuspecting. And after that's done they should be allowed to make their own choices.

Nobody (including Belgium) is asking for a blanket ban on lootboxes. Gaming studios are simply asked to adhere to existing online gambling legislation (it's allowed in Europe). To me, an adult rating and a visible disclaimer in all promos, just like online gambling sites do, is a fair compromise.

The gaming industry though, greedy as it is, wants no compromise. They want their cake and eat it too, mostly because over the past decade their business has exploded by preying on that addiction. They chose to ban lootboxes themselves, in hopes players from said countries turn on their governments in frustration.

If one good thing has come from the current "gamer rage" culture in social media, it's the gaming industry being forced to tread carefully. If EA was forced to "retreat", during the BF fiasco, no studio is safe to scheme and exploit in peace.

We'll there are people (even in this tread), who want them gone completely.

This is really the only reason I felt the need to respond.

The lootbox regulation introduces some interesting discussions tho.Does ectogambling count?Does opening lootbags count?Etcetc.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@yann.1946 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@yann.1946 said:While I agree that their should be regulations In regards to gambling. Their are some caveats:

Prohibiting is just a bad idea.I doesn't protect the addicted and the children will still be introduced to gambling by mtg and kinder surprise for example.And it blocks the people who just do it for their enjoyment.

Parents are also responsible for the spending behavior of their children.And while the state has some responsibility in the matter the question remains why is everyone allowed to get pregnant but not to adopt?

Personal responsibility is important but it's a government's duty to inform and warn the unsuspecting. And after that's done they should be allowed to make their own choices.

Nobody (including Belgium) is asking for a blanket ban on lootboxes. Gaming studios are simply asked to adhere to existing online gambling legislation (it's allowed in Europe). To me, an adult rating and a visible disclaimer in all promos, just like online gambling sites do, is a fair compromise.

The gaming industry though, greedy as it is, wants no compromise. They want their cake and eat it too, mostly because over the past decade their business has exploded by preying on that addiction. They chose to ban lootboxes themselves, in hopes players from said countries turn on their governments in frustration.

If one good thing has come from the current "gamer rage" culture in social media, it's the gaming industry being forced to tread carefully. If EA was forced to "retreat", during the BF fiasco, no studio is safe to scheme and exploit in peace.

We'll there are people (even in this tread), who want them gone completely.

This is really the only reason I felt the need to respond.

The lootbox regulation introduces some interesting discussions tho.Does ectogambling count?Does opening lootbags count?Etcetc.

To me any RNG item that can be traced to a RL money purchase in one way or another. So yeah that would include ecto gambling. But I doubt any legislator would ever delve that much in depth in mmo mechanics to achieve that. Focusing on RNG items offered directly in cash stores found in mmos is much more likely. In our case that would mean BL chests, dye packs and mountskins (maybe I'm forgetting something).

[yann.1946]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@yann.1946 said:While I agree that their should be regulations In regards to gambling. Their are some caveats:

Prohibiting is just a bad idea.I doesn't protect the addicted and the children will still be introduced to gambling by mtg and kinder surprise for example.And it blocks the people who just do it for their enjoyment.

Parents are also responsible for the spending behavior of their children.And while the state has some responsibility in the matter the question remains why is everyone allowed to get pregnant but not to adopt?

Personal responsibility is important but it's a government's duty to inform and warn the unsuspecting. And after that's done they should be allowed to make their own choices.

Nobody (including Belgium) is asking for a blanket ban on lootboxes. Gaming studios are simply asked to adhere to existing online gambling legislation (it's allowed in Europe). To me, an adult rating and a visible disclaimer in all promos, just like online gambling sites do, is a fair compromise.

The gaming industry though, greedy as it is, wants no compromise. They want their cake and eat it too, mostly because over the past decade their business has exploded by preying on that addiction. They chose to ban lootboxes themselves, in hopes players from said countries turn on their governments in frustration.

If one good thing has come from the current "gamer rage" culture in social media, it's the gaming industry being forced to tread carefully. If EA was forced to "retreat", during the BF fiasco, no studio is safe to scheme and exploit in peace.

We'll there are people (even in this tread), who want them gone completely.

This is really the only reason I felt the need to respond.

The lootbox regulation introduces some interesting discussions tho.Does ectogambling count?Does opening lootbags count?Etcetc.

To me any RNG item that can be traced to a RL money purchase in one way or another. So yeah that would include ecto gambling. But I doubt any legislator would ever delve that much in depth in mmo mechanics to achieve that. Focusing on RNG items offered directly in cash stores found in mmos is much more likely. In our case that would mean BL chests, dye packs and mountskins (maybe I'm forgetting something).

In that case shouldn't lootbags also count?

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

Yes, by proxy, since exchange is a thing and they are tradeable. But nobody cares about that, not legislators and not even the companies themselves. The hot potato is rng items directly sold in the cash store, that's where the bulk of the income comes from.

[Zaklex.6308]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Syrus.2174" said:Don't hate on the country finally setting up laws against gambling in games, hate on the companies still continuing with it, and not offering alternatives, despite some people not being able to "participate".

Because the "exclude the people who's government bans gambling in video games"-tactic seems to be working quite well for them; they make the players push against those laws despite how necessary they actually should be. Gambling is a slippery slope, which children should have no access to, even as an adult I consider it dangerous terrain where you can lose track of how much you actually spend quite quickly.

While I cannot and will not tell adults how or where to spend their money, laws banning gambling in games (especially those targeted at a younger audience, which MMOs usually are), are in now way a bad thing. The "unfair treatment" you feel just isn't because of the laws in a way, but the game companies' unwillingness to stop making children gamble with real life money.

If more countries took a move against this rampant loot box gambling, though hopefully with clear lines of where it starts ..., game companies would have to rethink their sales models and would HAVE to offer alternatives.

This.

Unfortunately early adopters are punished (or rather better protected) from unhealthy practices. Game companies can still make enough money by ignoring the few countries with very strict anti loot box laws. Once a critical mass is reached, the entire industry is going to flip. It's slowly happening in some areas already. Just look at how important it is to EA PR speak to always include the no loot boxes phrase on new titles.

Some established titles are moving and shifting their micro-transactions to be more in line with less predatory practices.

Stop with the false gambling narrative, it's not gambling...only in the loosest sense of the term, if you wanted to go with the strictest sense it definitely isn't gambling, because in the strictest sense you could spend money and get absolutely nothing...in this case you're guaranteed something, whether it's something you want or not doesn't matter, you win, there fore it's not gambling, simple as that. It's not my fault or any companies fault if certain people and countries don't understand this. Unfortunately the only reason Belgium went and said loot boxes were gambling is because of the extreme route EA went with SW:BF2(putting some of the best items behind randomness in loot boxes, if they had only included cosmetic items we wouldn't be at this stage)...it's that simple. Now we shouldn't derail this thread by going off on the tangent of what is and isn't gambling, everyone will have a difference of opinion, mine just happens to be based on fact(not based on how it stimulates areas of the brain, which is totally not the point and a ridiculous reason).

You actually made it quite clear why Belgium did it.. now consider what you value most out of BLC's.. and how you get them.. it is gambling in any sense of the term because it uses predatory practices to attempt to get players (of all ages, but including those considered under age) to play the game of chance in the hope they get that one shiny they seek. ANET have at least gone down the route of pushing out guaranteed returns and "choose your mount" options for various packs, but more could and should be done.If other countries begin to take a hardened look at these types of gambling mechanics like Belgium (and there are others already engaged in that process) then it may well come to head and force ANET to actually rethink their loot box strategy … until then spend responsibly and read before you buy is all.

**> EDIT - There are some interesting studies and statistics that have been put out for general consumption in regards to online gambling and more notably underage gambling.. google is your friend if you want to see just how easy it has become for certain demographics to get into addictive levels of gambling from both online gaming and online betting and the trend is upward.

That said.. it is not just ANET who should be making the effort to safeguard against such things happening within their product, personal responsibility is mustard, but those deemed underage are so for good reasons, therefor parents must shoulder the responsibility for this as well.**

First off, I don't care about the studies and certain demographics...it's not just about personal responsibility, it's also genetics, the government should stay out of trying to solve the gambling problem and stay out of how parents do or do not actually parent their children. Does gambling cause monetary and social issues, yes, but that is only the fault of the individual, not some outside source(even for those that "can't control" themselves). Same goes for the parents that refuse to monitor and control what their children do and spend money on, these should be teaching moments, but a lot of parents today just don't want to parent, they want the government to do it for them.

P.S., I personally don't care whether I get those ultra rare items from BLTC or not, everything is just a virtual item anyways, and some of it is trash and the rest I'll either use or just sell on the TP for even minimum amounts of silver/gold, if I get lucky and get a rare item, great, if not, no big deal...it's my money and I choose to spend it how I want, I'm not enamored of the big shiny item...otherwise I'd have made at least a Legendary and tried to get some of the other so called "prestige" items. I just get what I like.

So full of fail, it hurts the eyes just reading all that.

Gambling addiction whilst on the face of it might appear to be a personal issue, but that can very quickly become a much larger issue including crime and that can affect many others in ways you would not even want to imagine. As for underage gambling.. why do you think they are considered underage? who is responsible for minors where you live?

BTW this is not about you or I it's about the wider scale of the issue, no one cares if you have no interest in BLC shinnies that is not the point of the discussion at all, neither do I for that matter, but unfortunately not everyone thinks or acts that way. The fact you have no interest in the issues or the very real stats that are appearing on this topic is your choice and that's fine, but to just dismiss the issue like you seemingly do only adds to the very real problem that is growing. Interestingly enough there was a further paper submitted just yesterday into the UK government in relation to underage online gambling, which thankfully shows there are some out there that do want to help tackle the issue in ways a little more seriously than "not my problem, I am cool with it".That said.. ignorance can be bliss I guess.

Yes, this isn't about your or I, and do not think for one minute I don't know about the larger issues that gambling addiction can cause, but those larger issues are still not always the responsibility of the government...unless everyone is that has problems have no family members alive(as in they are the only person left in their family, then it becomes a problem for others), otherwise, if someone in a family has an issue, it's the responsibility of not only that individual but of the family to deal with it(that actually goes for everything, no one wants to be responsible for others in their family).

As for under age gambling and who's responsible, the parents, the parents are who're responsible for their children and what they do, until they become an adult and can make their own decisions it is the responsibility of the parent(s) to know what their children are doing and if need be correct the behavior or teach them the proper way to handle things...that's how it was in my case with my parents and how it was when I had my own children. I always had issues with parents that refused to control their children, and more often than not I would say something about...and if need be deal with it myself(which of course didn't go over well, but that wasn't my problem, it was the other parents problem).

This is obviously going nowhere, and I think we aren't going to agree on the subject, so we should just agree to disagree on this one.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@lare.5129 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:Gambling addiction whilst on the face of it might appear to be a personal issue, but that can very quickly become a much larger issue including crime and that can affect many others in ways you would not even want to imagine. As for underage gambling.. why do you think they are considered underage? who is responsible for minors where you live?This is not problem for ANET, and not a problem at all. This is benefit. Benefit wiht issue only that penalty is so softly, that give people mind get risk.Why in last trip ib Dubai no one touch my baggage near road when I eat in cafe? Again - I sm sure that is not anet problem

Firstly I have no clue what your on aboutSecond.. I never said it was ANET's problem to solve, in fact if you read back I actually acknowledge ANET have actually introduced gemstore options to take out the need to gamble on loot boxes... but that doesn't remove the potential underage / online gambling addiction.

No idea what going to Dubai and having your luggage stolen whilst eating in a cafe has anything to do with this discussion though, was that some very skewed attempt to say all is safe and cuddly in the world... on and offline.