Reorganize new Daredevil traits in a better order? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Reorganize new Daredevil traits in a better order?

SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭

"Daredevil traits have been reworked to focus on three categories: choosing your defense in the Adept tier; choosing your damage in the Master tier; and choosing your dodge maneuver in the Grandmaster tier."
This is no sense, produce a nerf of Daredevil and limits player choices: for example in pve you need to maximize DPS (and now we usually play Havoc mastery, Staff Master and Bounding Dodger) while in WvW you need defensive traits (like Brawler's Tenacity).
Be obliged to play and choose a defensive trait in PvE where we suffer a lack of damage and we don't need survability have no sense.
That's why I propose to reorganize new Daredevil traits in order to have a defensive, offensive and "utility" choice for each tier (Major Adept, Major Master, Major Grandmaster) as indicated below (and as it has always been):

  • Minor Adept: Physical Supremacy
  • Major Adept:
  1. Havoc Specialist
  2. Brawler's Tenacity
  3. Weakening Strikes
  • Minor Master: Escapist's Fortitude
  • Major Master:
  1. Staff Master
  2. Marauder's Resilience
  3. Impacting Disruption
  • Minor Grandmaster: Endurance Thief
  • Major Grandmaster:
  1. Bounding Dodger
  2. Unhindered Combatant (Dash dodge)
  3. Lotus Training

Reorganize new Daredevil traits in a better order? 32 votes

Yes.
75%
Lahmia.2193noot.8641Sir Vincent III.1286ArcanistSeven.8720killy.3278fluidmonolith.3584The Lag.9742CavaleiroV.1904Turtle Dragon.9241AsiraasiB.7165Simzani.4318kuteykathy.8123JonnyForgotten.4276Lociaz.4027Xenji.4907rdigeri.7935SehferViega.8725InFlames.7128wesron.7351Psycoprophet.8107 24 votes
No
25%
derd.6413HyperLooser.2698narcx.3570Fat Disgrace.4275InsaneQR.7412rbbthole.9074roamzero.9486Exitus.3297 8 votes

Comments

  • Yes.

    I totally agree with it, there is no point to destroy the class in this way..

  • Ensign.2189Ensign.2189 Member ✭✭✭

    You could do this, but it would necessitate nerfing Havoc Specialist down to 4/7/10%.

    I don't see what that would really buy you. In PvE you'd swap from Weakening Strikes + Havoc Mastery + Escapists Fort (or MR) to Staff Mastery + Havoc Mastery + Escapist's Fort...that's a wash for staff. For non-staff builds you'd run the same traits but it would be a clear nerf. You get 2 damage modifier traits either way.

    The new option would be EF + WS + MR as a more focused defensive build. Is that what you are looking for?

  • SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2019
    Yes.

    @Ensign.2189 said:
    You could do this, but it would necessitate nerfing Havoc Specialist down to 4/7/10%.

    I don't see what that would really buy you. In PvE you'd swap from Weakening Strikes + Havoc Mastery + Escapists Fort (or MR) to Staff Mastery + Havoc Mastery + Escapist's Fort...that's a wash for staff. For non-staff builds you'd run the same traits but it would be a clear nerf. You get 2 damage modifier traits either way.

    The new option would be EF + WS + MR as a more focused defensive build. Is that what you are looking for?

    With this layout:

    • in PvE with staff you can maximize DPS (Havoc Specialist + Staff Master + Bounding Dodger): be obliged to run a defensive trait, like now, have no sense cause we only have a DPS reduction (added to Staff Strike and Staff Bash 6,5% damage nerf) .
    • Havoc specialist is fine in this way: befeore you run with HM (+7% damage) and SM (+5% damage with staff and +5% damage with not full endurance bar), now with HS (+5%-10%-15% damage) and SM (+240 power).. remember also that in PvE endurance regenerates very quickly..
    • in PvE "non staff daredevil builds": well there is only condi Dagger/Dagger and in this case you can run with Brawler's Tenacity / Weakening Strikes (Havoc Specialist has less impact on condi builds, cause as WIKI says: "The term damage usually refers to direct damage in the game.") + Staff Master + Lotus Training.. so you get no nerf.

    • This layout insted help a lot condi D/D builds in WvW where you can run with Brawler's Tenacity/Weakening Strikes + Escapist's Fortitude (that is fundamental in this build) + Marauder's Resilience + Lotus Training/Unhindered Combatant. This build will be not only playable, but also competitive.

    • D/P can run with: Havoc Specialist (oneshot backstab build)/ Brawler's Tenacity / Weakening Strikes (actual my fav) + Impacting Disruption/Marauder's Resilience + Unhindered Combatant/Bounding Dodger having at the same time Escapist's Fortitude that in competitive modes is really strong.. in my case I'll run with WS+PI+Dash (+EF). So you can have more options respect actual layout.
    • S/D daredevil can run with: Weakening Strikes + Escapist's Fortitude (really good with Sword) + Marauder's Resilience + Unhindered Combatant. And It'll be a really good alternative to the core version (less damage, but really good survability).

    So as you can see, you would have better options for the following Daredevil builds: D/D condi (PvP and WvW), Staff (PvE and WvW vault cannon), D/P (WvW and PvP) and S/D (WvW).

  • SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2019
    Yes.

    @Ensign.2189 said:
    Is that what you are looking for?

    I'm looking for build diversity: I usually play D/P daredevil and I'll play it with the same traits with both the layouts ("mine" and the AN one): Weakening Strikes + Escapist's Fortitude + Impacting Disruption + Unhindered Combatant.

    BUT with ArenaNet's actual layout I have no choice. With this layout as I showed you, we have more options. That's all.

  • Ensign.2189Ensign.2189 Member ✭✭✭

    You are obligated to run a defensive trait in your suggested loadout as well - you are just ok with forcing that defensive trait to be EF.

    The real option you want to provide is WS + EF + MR. I suspect people would want some other varieties of triple defensive / utility as well (but, say, WS + EF + BT); but you can't make both of those possible without some major nerfs.

  • SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes.

    @Ensign.2189 said:
    You are obligated to run a defensive trait in your suggested loadout as well - you are just ok with forcing that defensive trait to be EF.

    No, cause I could play with: Havoc Specialist + Escapist's Fortitude (on minor master) + Impacting Disruption + Bounding Dodger that will be the best option (with this layout) to people that want to play with Bound D/P daredevil.

    To condi D/D the real option is Brawler's Tenacity + Escapist's Fortitude.

    You have some further doubts? Or your goal is to make me admit that I only want WS + EF + MR? Cause I always played (in PvP and WvW) my daredevil with Havoc Mastery + Impacting Disruption + Dash Dodge, so I wouldn't play WS + EF + MR.

    This layout fit better with thief weapon sets, this is undeniable. We get a 600r Steal nerf, don't come tell me with this layout thief would need other nerf.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes.

    As long as I can take both Brawler and Escapist, I'm for it.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Ensign.2189Ensign.2189 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm trying to understand the real options that are locked out by the current arrangement. The desirable ones would be MF + WS + EF and HS + WS + EF, yes?

    That would necessitate a layout of HS/MF/HM in adept tier 1, EF as minor, and WS as master 2. That opens up some more durable PvP builds, but locks PvE builds out of HM + damage (since EF is now the forced trait), and mixed builds out of MF + damage. More importantly it locks out WS + ID, which is a pretty clear downgrade.

    I do like that the above opens up some more tanky builds though. I could go either way on it.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes.

    @Ensign.2189 said:
    I'm trying to understand the real options that are locked out by the current arrangement. The desirable ones would be MF + WS + EF and HS + WS + EF, yes?

    That would necessitate a layout of HS/MF/HM in adept tier 1, EF as minor, and WS as master 2. That opens up some more durable PvP builds, but locks PvE builds out of HM + damage (since EF is now the forced trait), and mixed builds out of MF + damage. More importantly it locks out WS + ID, which is a pretty clear downgrade.

    I do like that the above opens up some more tanky builds though. I could go either way on it.

    Yes, being able to pick Brawler and Escapist will allow me to take both DA and CS.

    The current layout forces me to choose between Brawler and Escapist, which means I'll have to replace either DA or CS for Acro if I want to take Brawler, which is a bad trade since I'd be losing a lot of damage output. Then in the Master tier, it forces me to choose Staff Mastery since I just lost one damage traitline (DA or CS), so I need this trait to compensate the loss. This limits the build diversity by effectively eliminating my build and forcing me to use a specific build.

    With the suggested layout, I can keep both DA and CS since I can take both Brawler and Escapist. I am not forced to take Staff Mastery anymore, instead it's a good trade off choices to either boost my damage (Staff master), boost my defense (Marauder Res) or control/burst (Impact).

    The choices in this suggested layout is far better than what ArenaNet came up with.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes.

    @Ensign.2189 said:
    I'm trying to understand the real options that are locked out by the current arrangement. The desirable ones would be MF + WS + EF and HS + WS + EF, yes?

    That would necessitate a layout of HS/MF/HM in adept tier 1, EF as minor, and WS as master 2. That opens up some more durable PvP builds, but locks PvE builds out of HM + damage (since EF is now the forced trait), and mixed builds out of MF + damage. More importantly it locks out WS + ID, which is a pretty clear downgrade.

    I do like that the above opens up some more tanky builds though. I could go either way on it.

    With AN actual layout you can't have MF + WS + EF, but only EF + WS + HS.

    With Poll's layout you can have WS + EF + MF and WS + EF + ID, but you can't have WS + EF + HS (anyway in competitive modes you "can't" waste dodge in order to gain a "little" damage bonus, you dodge when you need it.. so you basically hardly have +15% damage: if you have no dodge with thief, you usually avoid close combat and keep distance). While with unblockable Swipe, Impacting Disruption is more usable: you can steal when enemy is using a blocking skill to gain a secure Pulmonary Impact (basilisk venom has to high casting time to be used in this way with the same efficiency).

    As you can see, some players want to play with BT + EF, and this layout permit it.

    I honestly tried to make a layout that benefits as builds as possible, but you can propose something better or different.

  • Ensign.2189Ensign.2189 Member ✭✭✭

    Er, I was mistaking the name of BT for something else. So layout to preserve the desired options is HS / MR / BT + minor EF + T2 WS. HS / WS / BT + minor EF + T2 MR (as posted) helps out builds that want to stack the defensive traits, but would be a more significant nerf to offensive builds. Both hurt offensive builds for the sake of allowing even heavier defensive specs.

    You can argue it either way. There are plenty of builds that would want 3 of (MR, EF, BT, WS) in every combination. If you don't want 3 of those or want a more offensive build, the current set-up is clearly better. If you do want 3, someone is going to be dissatisfied with any re-organization since one of the traits is going to be the odd man out.

    How much of the disagreement stems from different valuations of Escapist's Fortitude?

  • Exitus.3297Exitus.3297 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    Daredevil is going to be sub-par no matter how you organize it unless you undo the Swipe changes.

    (I'm open to the idea of reorganizing the traits in a different order. It just isn't really necessary at the moment, or rather it's just too soon considering how long the traits have been this way. Like someone else mentioned, if you reorganized them, you would have to buff/nerf them, and at that point they wouldn't be the same traits anymore. Let's give it time.)

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes.

    It would really be nice to be able to pick DA and CS and either elite while keeping 15 ini as I findx12 too limiting,but that's just me. Would help bring thiefs dps and build diversity without too many changes.

  • SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes.

    @Ensign.2189 said:

    You can argue it either way. There are plenty of builds that would want 3 of (MR, EF, BT, WS) in every combination. If you don't want 3 of those or want a more offensive build, the current set-up is clearly better. If you do want 3, someone is going to be dissatisfied with any re-organization since one of the traits is going to be the odd man out.

    How much of the disagreement stems from different valuations of Escapist's Fortitude?

    The actual AN layout nerf thief damage: in PvE you are forced to run with a defensive trait, in WvW you can't go full offensive cause the Major Adept Tier is only for defensive traits!! This is a NO SENSE!! Why I'm a DPS class and I must run defensive trait in PvE losing DPS?
    The layout I proposed allows you to run full offensive (in PvE and WvW/PvP) with "Havoc Specialist + Staff Master + Bounding Dodger". You can run with these traits also if you are playing D/P: 120 power from Staff master are not so bad if you combine them with +180 power from assassin signet and +15% damage from HS. You will have more and stable DPS respect the actual layout (WS + HS + BD). So the current set up is not better, in nothing. This is a mathematical truth.

    I want my thief to be a glass cannon and with AN's layout I'm forced to lose DPS and use a defensife traits (you have no choice).
    With mine I can run WS/HS + PI/SM + bound/dash that allow me to have good damage with decent defensive traits (dash+EF) or a great damage with good condi clean.
    Someone else wants Brawler and Escapist, and they can't have both.
    AN wants to make daredevil more close combat class, nerf Swipe range, so in order to play daredevil now lot of people wants a full defensive traits (that suits perfectly with some builds): this layout permit them to play with BT/WS + EF + MF + Dash.

    Can you see how many opportunities this layout give us? Then take AN layout and tell me what opportunities gives you.

    The actual layout (+steal nerf) kills lot of builds.

  • SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2019
    Yes.

    @Exitus.3297 said:
    Daredevil is going to be sub-par no matter how you organize it unless you undo the Swipe changes.

    Like someone else mentioned, if you reorganized them, you would have to buff/nerf them, and at that point they wouldn't be the same traits anymore.

    Why you have to nerf them if you reorganize them? The actual layout is a nerf for daredevil, a nerf that is added to another nerf: Swipe range.

    They nerf steal, they little buff some traits, but with this layout we can't exploit their potential.

    TRADE OFF? Well, we lose something really significant on Steal, we must gain something on traits.
    Other ways Daredevil is a dead class with only few barely playable options.

    Last thing: think about Marauder's Resilience: this trait is completely useless in AN's actual layout cause no one sane will use it over Brawler's Tenacity or Escapist's Fortitude that are both better. But used in combination with Brawler's Tenacity/Weakening Strikes, Escapist's Fortitude and Dash create a very solid defensive build (that you can play with Staff or S/D or D/D condi if you replace dash with lotus training).

  • Exitus.3297Exitus.3297 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2019
    No

    @SehferViega.8725 said:

    @Exitus.3297 said:
    Daredevil is going to be sub-par no matter how you organize it unless you undo the Swipe changes.

    Like someone else mentioned, if you reorganized them, you would have to buff/nerf them, and at that point they wouldn't be the same traits anymore.

    Why you have to nerf them if you reorganize them? The actual layout is a nerf for daredevil, a nerf that is added to another nerf: Swipe range.

    They nerf steal, they little buff some traits, but with this layout we can't exploit their potential.

    TRADE OFF? Well, we lose something really significant on Steal, we must gain something on traits.
    Other ways Daredevil is a dead class with only few barely playable options.

    Last thing: think about Marauder's Resilience: this trait is completely useless in AN's actual layout cause no one sane will use it over Brawler's Tenacity or Escapist's Fortitude that are both better. But used in combination with Brawler's Tenacity/Weakening Strikes, Escapist's Fortitude and Dash create a very solid defensive build (that you can play with Staff or S/D or D/D condi if you replace dash with lotus training).

    The trait layout is not a nerf at all. In most cases it is a net buff. It is just heavily outweighed by Swipe which is a nerf.

    Every build, including PvE builds, had something to gain from trait changes. Staff PvE Daredevils now have access to a 15% damage boost (10% if you are smart and hold on to one dodge for good measure) from Havoc Mastery up from 10% from the old Staff Master. The old 7% from Havoc Mastery has been integrated with Weakening Strikes which is now a passive. On top of all of this, they now have access to Brawler's Tenacity on top of that 7% and 15%, which means more Fist Flurries, whereas before they did not. At the very least they lose nothing.

    Meanwhile, in sPvP, assuming people played D/P Daredevil with Brawler's Tenacity, Pulmonary Impact and Unhindered Combatant (the old Meta setup), they gain 7% more damage against and 10% reduced damage from Weakened targets, which they can now apply passively and frequently on top of Lotus Poison. They do lose the ~450 healing on successful evades as a passive, but you can get that back in addition to some condition cleanse on evades at the cost of 4 seconds on Channeled Vigor.

    Please explain to me where you think the nerfs are in the new traits.

    EDIT: italic font kept bugging out.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    In PvE, if you were able to take both Havoc Specialist and Staff Mastery, both would end up being nerfed pretty substantially and would probably end up doing the combined damage that one of them does now. By having them in the same tier, but being as strong as they are, it's almost like you get a "free" trait with Brawler's Tenacity.

  • SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes.

    @Exitus.3297 said:
    The trait layout is not a nerf at all. In most cases it is a net buff. It is just heavily outweighed by Swipe which is a nerf.

    The actual layout is a net buff in most cases? In which cases? Please tell me when you can have a NET BUFF (respect old daredevil and respect the layout I have proposed)

    Every build, including PvE builds, had something to gain from trait changes. Staff PvE Daredevils now have access to a 15% damage boost (10% if you are smart and hold on to one dodge for good measure) from Havoc Mastery up from 10% from the old Staff Master. The old 7% from Havoc Mastery has been integrated with Weakening Strikes which is now a passive. On top of all of this, they now have access to Brawler's Tenacity on top of that 7% and 15%, which means more Fist Flurries, whereas before they did not. At the very least they lose nothing.

    Meanwhile, in sPvP, assuming people played D/P Daredevil with Brawler's Tenacity, Pulmonary Impact and Unhindered Combatant (the old Meta setup), they gain 7% more damage against and 10% reduced damage from Weakened targets, which they can now apply passively and frequently on top of Lotus Poison. They do lose the ~450 healing on successful evades as a passive, but you can get that back in addition to some condition cleanse on evades at the cost of 4 seconds on Channeled Vigor.

    Please explain to me where you think the nerfs are in the new traits.

    EDIT: italic font kept bugging out.

    PvE: Havoc Specialist + Staff Master will be really better then the actual Brawler's Tenacity + Havoc Specialist. In fractal you have Large Mist Mobility Potion that gives you +50% Endurance recharge rate (+ Vigor). So to keep the +15% damage from Havoc Specialist you have to waste lot of time dodging losing dps.
    In Raids actual layout have basically the same DPS as old Daredevil (but before DPS was more stable), but low DPS respect HS + SM.

    PvP/WvW:

    • D/D condi daredevil: this build lost the Brawler's Tenacity + Escapist's Fortitude combination (that is fundamental) to gain what? Havoc Specialist affect only direct damage and not condi damage (all the Major Master tier become completely useless).
    • P/D: this weapons set is the one that suffers more from Swipe's range. In this case new traits are a buff respect old ones if you play old meta build, but with the layout I have proposed you can have more choices, losing basically nothing. People that play oneshot backstab build could run with HS + PI/SM + Bound dodge, for example. You could run with Weakening Strikes + Escapist's Fortitude + Impacting Disruption + Dash Dodge.
    • Staff: with AN's actual layout you have one choice: EF/BT + SM + Bound dodge. With this layout you could play: [HS + SM + Bound dodge] or [WS/BT + SM/MR + Bound dodge].. you could combine daredevil defensive traits with acrobatics traits.

    Do you know what I mean? they buff some traits, but with this layout they cut out lots of possible combinations.
    Some combinations would be too OP? well maybe, but think abount other classes: scrapper, holosmith, herald, berserker (now), SOULBEAST.. thief's traits have suffered an year of nerf. A buff in Daredevil will not be a crime for me.

    The old 7% from Havoc Mastery has been integrated with Weakening Strikes which is now a passive.

    Havoc Mastery 7% was a fix bonus based on range, new Weakening Strikes bonus is related to weakness: in fractal you have often to fight multiple mobs and to gain 7% new bonus against all those mobs you have to weakened them all (so you have to use AoE skill = Vault or bound).

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    Problem is though that this gives choices where as your option would just mean everyone will take the same traits and make the rest obsolete.

  • SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes.

    @narcx.3570 said:
    In PvE, if you were able to take both Havoc Specialist and Staff Mastery, both would end up being nerfed pretty substantially and would probably end up doing the combined damage that one of them does now. By having them in the same tier, but being as strong as they are, it's almost like you get a "free" trait with Brawler's Tenacity.

    Daredevil in PvE is a pure DPS. It is now the best DPS (on small hitbox)? No.
    Havoc Specialist + Staff Master (+15% damage with empty dodge bar + 240 power + Endurance per Initiative that mitigate HS) VS Brawler's Tenacity + Weakening Strikes + Havoc Specialist (+7% damage to weakned foes + 15% with empty dodge bar + 16 sec Fist Flurry). There is not an abyss. Why should AN nerf it?

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Problem is though that this gives choices where as your option would just mean everyone will take the same traits and make the rest obsolete.

    I though exactly the opposite: actaul layout limits the choice to really few builds and traits.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    Never mind, miss read the first section

  • Exitus.3297Exitus.3297 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    @SehferViega.8725 said:

    @Exitus.3297 said:
    The trait layout is not a nerf at all. In most cases it is a net buff. It is just heavily outweighed by Swipe which is a nerf.

    The actual layout is a net buff in most cases? In which cases? Please tell me when you can have a NET BUFF (respect old daredevil and respect the layout I have proposed)

    Every build, including PvE builds, had something to gain from trait changes. Staff PvE Daredevils now have access to a 15% damage boost (10% if you are smart and hold on to one dodge for good measure) from Havoc Mastery up from 10% from the old Staff Master. The old 7% from Havoc Mastery has been integrated with Weakening Strikes which is now a passive. On top of all of this, they now have access to Brawler's Tenacity on top of that 7% and 15%, which means more Fist Flurries, whereas before they did not. At the very least they lose nothing.

    Meanwhile, in sPvP, assuming people played D/P Daredevil with Brawler's Tenacity, Pulmonary Impact and Unhindered Combatant (the old Meta setup), they gain 7% more damage against and 10% reduced damage from Weakened targets, which they can now apply passively and frequently on top of Lotus Poison. They do lose the ~450 healing on successful evades as a passive, but you can get that back in addition to some condition cleanse on evades at the cost of 4 seconds on Channeled Vigor.

    Please explain to me where you think the nerfs are in the new traits.

    EDIT: italic font kept bugging out.

    PvE: Havoc Specialist + Staff Master will be really better then the actual Brawler's Tenacity + Havoc Specialist. In fractal you have Large Mist Mobility Potion that gives you +50% Endurance recharge rate (+ Vigor). So to keep the +15% damage from Havoc Specialist you have to waste lot of time dodging losing dps.
    In Raids actual layout have basically the same DPS as old Daredevil (but before DPS was more stable), but low DPS respect HS + SM.

    PvP/WvW:

    • D/D condi daredevil: this build lost the Brawler's Tenacity + Escapist's Fortitude combination (that is fundamental) to gain what? Havoc Specialist affect only direct damage and not condi damage (all the Major Master tier become completely useless).
    • P/D: this weapons set is the one that suffers more from Swipe's range. In this case new traits are a buff respect old ones if you play old meta build, but with the layout I have proposed you can have more choices, losing basically nothing. People that play oneshot backstab build could run with HS + PI/SM + Bound dodge, for example. You could run with Weakening Strikes + Escapist's Fortitude + Impacting Disruption + Dash Dodge.
    • Staff: with AN's actual layout you have one choice: EF/BT + SM + Bound dodge. With this layout you could play: [HS + SM + Bound dodge] or [WS/BT + SM/MR + Bound dodge].. you could combine daredevil defensive traits with acrobatics traits.

    Do you know what I mean? they buff some traits, but with this layout they cut out lots of possible combinations.
    Some combinations would be too OP? well maybe, but think abount other classes: scrapper, holosmith, herald, berserker (now), SOULBEAST.. thief's traits have suffered an year of nerf. A buff in Daredevil will not be a crime for me.

    The old 7% from Havoc Mastery has been integrated with Weakening Strikes which is now a passive.

    Havoc Mastery 7% was a fix bonus based on range, new Weakening Strikes bonus is related to weakness: in fractal you have often to fight multiple mobs and to gain 7% new bonus against all those mobs you have to weakened them all (so you have to use AoE skill = Vault or bound).

    You rhetorically asked me why I thought it was a net buff in most cases, then proceed to list off all of the reasons why I thought it was a net buff. You also still insist on arguing why Swipe is a devastating nerf when I agreed that it is.

    I'm going to make this as simple as possible:

    Old Trait setup - All of the damage modifiers you could get before were Havoc Mastery (+7%), Staff Master (+10%), and Bounding Dodger (+10%).

    New Trait Setup - You can have Weakening Strikes (+7%) as well as plenty of ways to spam Weakness (the passive itself, Lotus Poison, Staff 2), Havoc Mastery (up to +15%), Bounding Dodger (+10%), AND Brawler's Tenacity (20% reduced cooldown on Fist Flurry). They have all of the same things as the old trait setup as well as Brawler's Tenacity. This is a net buff, or at the very least not a nerf. What I don't understand is that you literally started off by saying that the new trait setup is a nerf, then when you get technical in your Fractal example, you pointed out it wasn't a nerf. That was literally my point.

    It's also important to note that the 7% damage buff integration into Weakening Strikes is a buff because there is absolutely 0 reason the targets in PvE shouldn't have Weakness. Staff 2 spams it. Lotus Poison applies it. Now your dodges apply it. There is absolutely 0 reason your target shouldn't have Weakness on them, especially with the Staff. Another thing important to note is that the Weakening Strikes applies in an AoE, and after testing on the dummies relentlessly, the Weakness proc applies before the damage, meaning that if you decide to Dodge -> Vault, every enemy you hit with it will benefit from the 7% damage boost. Best part is now you can have that 7% buff on ranged weapons as well, such as P/P. This good because some PvE Staff Builds ran P/P as an offset for good measure, They now gain that 7% damage boost regardless of the range.

    The reason I think they moved Havoc Mastery to the Master Tier from the Adept tier is for this reason: Daredevils would have Havoc Mastery (up to +15%), Staff Master (+240 Power), Weakening Strikes (+7%) and Bounding Dodger (+10%). My suspicion is that they thought this may be overkill in damage, because Daredevils to my understanding are doing pretty well in PvE environments in terms of damage. I personally have a preference for having each Trait Tier (Adept, Master, Grandmaster) be focused on one aspect because it brings people back to focusing on more fine-tuned builds instead of being one-trick ponies, but that is just a personal preference of mine.

    I agree that D/D condition builds didn't much to gain from this patch. Tbh I only really ever saw it in PvP, and most of them took Withdraw anyways alongside the old Weakening Strikes, but they did at least have a choice. Now they are stuck going that direction.

    I don't understand why you are getting extremely defensive and lashing out on me when I was merely trying to explain why the trait-setup isn't much a nerf in 99% of cases, and make players feel better about the whole situation. The only really devastating nerf at the moment is Swipe, and that is the change Thief players really need to focus on. It is the only real way to get ANet's attention on it. After that is dealt with, maybe then it will be better to have a conversation about the trait layout.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Exitus.3297 said:

    @SehferViega.8725 said:

    @Exitus.3297 said:
    Daredevil is going to be sub-par no matter how you organize it unless you undo the Swipe changes.

    Like someone else mentioned, if you reorganized them, you would have to buff/nerf them, and at that point they wouldn't be the same traits anymore.

    Why you have to nerf them if you reorganize them? The actual layout is a nerf for daredevil, a nerf that is added to another nerf: Swipe range.

    They nerf steal, they little buff some traits, but with this layout we can't exploit their potential.

    TRADE OFF? Well, we lose something really significant on Steal, we must gain something on traits.
    Other ways Daredevil is a dead class with only few barely playable options.

    Last thing: think about Marauder's Resilience: this trait is completely useless in AN's actual layout cause no one sane will use it over Brawler's Tenacity or Escapist's Fortitude that are both better. But used in combination with Brawler's Tenacity/Weakening Strikes, Escapist's Fortitude and Dash create a very solid defensive build (that you can play with Staff or S/D or D/D condi if you replace dash with lotus training).

    The trait layout is not a nerf at all. In most cases it is a net buff. It is just heavily outweighed by Swipe which is a nerf.

    Every build, including PvE builds, had something to gain from trait changes. Staff PvE Daredevils now have access to a 15% damage boost (10% if you are smart and hold on to one dodge for good measure) from Havoc Mastery up from 10% from the old Staff Master. The old 7% from Havoc Mastery has been integrated with Weakening Strikes which is now a passive. On top of all of this, they now have access to Brawler's Tenacity on top of that 7% and 15%, which means more Fist Flurries, whereas before they did not. At the very least they lose nothing.

    Meanwhile, in sPvP, assuming people played D/P Daredevil with Brawler's Tenacity, Pulmonary Impact and Unhindered Combatant (the old Meta setup), they gain 7% more damage against and 10% reduced damage from Weakened targets, which they can now apply passively and frequently on top of Lotus Poison. They do lose the ~450 healing on successful evades as a passive, but you can get that back in addition to some condition cleanse on evades at the cost of 4 seconds on Channeled Vigor.

    Please explain to me where you think the nerfs are in the new traits.

    EDIT: italic font kept bugging out.

    I did not participate in the poll as I tend to like to test various iterations out first and I tend to agree with your conclusions. While I can see some merit in a re-ordering , I am not seeing the NERFS others allude to outside of the steal. They have in essence combined two skills into weakening and two skills into the new escapsists and from a logical point of view this just can't be a nerf.

    Weakening strikes in particular is very telling even in WvW with all of those cleanses. It also the singular biggest add to Condition specs as the need to crit now removed.

    I am still opne to the idea that a re-order might be better overall but feel the single largest issue is SWIPE.

  • SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes.

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    I did not participate in the poll as I tend to like to test various iterations out first and I tend to agree with your conclusions. While I can see some merit in a re-ordering , I am not seeing the NERFS others allude to outside of the steal. They have in essence combined two skills into weakening and two skills into the new escapsists and from a logical point of view this just can't be a nerf.

    Weakening strikes in particular is very telling even in WvW with all of those cleanses. It also the singular biggest add to Condition specs as the need to crit now removed.

    I am still opne to the idea that a re-order might be better overall but feel the single largest issue is SWIPE.

    With actual layout nerf are basically two:

    • you can't have both Brawler's Tenacity + Escapist's Fortitude that is really important in condi D/D build (maybe you don't play it, but someone does).
    • you have a loss of DPS in fractal playing Staff daredevil (and a little loss of DPS in raid, but here the loss is minor).
      New Weakening Strikes is really strong in competitive modes, but it is, honestly, the only buff.

    The layout I have proposed is basically better and gives you more possibilities (as I have widely illustrated).

    Last thing: for sure new swipe is an issue. For this reason a layout that give you stronger choices and more opportunities could be a good thing.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SehferViega.8725 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    I did not participate in the poll as I tend to like to test various iterations out first and I tend to agree with your conclusions. While I can see some merit in a re-ordering , I am not seeing the NERFS others allude to outside of the steal. They have in essence combined two skills into weakening and two skills into the new escapsists and from a logical point of view this just can't be a nerf.

    Weakening strikes in particular is very telling even in WvW with all of those cleanses. It also the singular biggest add to Condition specs as the need to crit now removed.

    I am still opne to the idea that a re-order might be better overall but feel the single largest issue is SWIPE.

    With actual layout nerf are basically two:

    • you can't have both Brawler's Tenacity + Escapist's Fortitude that is really important in condi D/D build (maybe you don't play it, but someone does).
    • you have a loss of DPS in fractal playing Staff daredevil (and a little loss of DPS in raid, but here the loss is minor).
      New Weakening Strikes is really strong in competitive modes, but it is, honestly, the only buff.

    The layout I have proposed is basically better and gives you more possibilities (as I have widely illustrated).

    Last thing: for sure new swipe is an issue. For this reason a layout that give you stronger choices and more opportunities could be a good thing.

    Actully I do play condi D/D. The big hit is swipe as there little in the way of means to engage. I never took brawlers tenacity my own d/d condition build as I relied on SOM as the heal over the Channled vigor heal and I favored neelde trap or a venom over impairing daggers. In other words there little in the skills that brawlers tenacity allowed a lower cooldown for that I preferred.

    Escapists fortitude will now be my go to in that build and this will work with weakening strikes. Granted there little in the Masters tiers I like but this was the same as with the old layour where there nothing in the adept tier.

    In your revised layout I still would not take brawlers. I would go Escapists and marauders resilience. Now that on paper would put me ahead but that said excluding SWIPE , the existing build is ahead of where it once was.

  • SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2019
    Yes.

    @Exitus.3297 said:
    I'm going to make this as simple as possible:

    Old Trait setup - All of the damage modifiers you could get before were Havoc Mastery (+7%), Staff Master (+10%), and Bounding Dodger (+10%).

    New Trait Setup - You can have Weakening Strikes (+7%) as well as plenty of ways to spam Weakness (the passive itself, Lotus Poison, Staff 2), Havoc Mastery (up to +15%), Bounding Dodger (+10%), AND Brawler's Tenacity (20% reduced cooldown on Fist Flurry). They have all of the same things as the old trait setup as well as Brawler's Tenacity. This is a net buff, or at the very least not a nerf. What I don't understand is that you literally started off by saying that the new trait setup is a nerf, then when you get technical in your Fractal example, you pointed out it wasn't a nerf. That was literally my point.

    I said exactly the opposite: in fractal new layout is a nerf in term of DPS (also in raid, but here the loss of DPS is minor).

    It's also important to note that the 7% damage buff integration into Weakening Strikes is a buff because there is absolutely 0 reason the targets in PvE shouldn't have Weakness. Staff 2 spams it. Lotus Poison applies it. Now your dodges apply it. There is absolutely 0 reason your target shouldn't have Weakness on them, especially with the Staff. Another thing important to note is that the Weakening Strikes applies in an AoE, and after testing on the dummies relentlessly, the Weakness proc applies before the damage, meaning that if you decide to Dodge -> Vault, every enemy you hit with it will benefit from the 7% damage boost. Best part is now you can have that 7% buff on ranged weapons as well, such as P/P. This good because some PvE Staff Builds ran P/P as an offset for good measure, They now gain that 7% damage boost regardless of the range.

    You still don't understand that the problem is NOT Weakening Strikes!
    Is Havoc Specialist. In fractal with Vigor and Large Mist Mobility Potion your endurance regenerates too fast making you lose DPS. Got it?

    The reason I think they moved Havoc Mastery to the Master Tier from the Adept tier is for this reason: Daredevils would have Havoc Mastery (up to +15%), Staff Master (+240 Power), Weakening Strikes (+7%) and Bounding Dodger (+10%). My suspicion is that they thought this may be overkill in damage, because Daredevils to my understanding are doing pretty well in PvE environments in terms of damage. I personally have a preference for having each Trait Tier (Adept, Master, Grandmaster) be focused on one aspect because it brings people back to focusing on more fine-tuned builds instead of being one-trick ponies, but that is just a personal preference of mine.

    Have you at least read my layout? HS is in the same tier that WS.. you could have [HS + SM] or [WS + SM] in order to maximise DPS. Not WS + HS + SM as you wrote.

    I agree that D/D condition builds didn't much to gain from this patch. Tbh I only really ever saw it in PvP, and most of them took Withdraw anyways alongside the old Weakening Strikes, but they did at least have a choice. Now they are stuck going that direction.

    They lose a good traits combination to gain basically nothing (the Major Master tier is completely useless).

    I don't understand why you are getting extremely defensive and lashing out on me when I was merely trying to explain why the trait-setup isn't much a nerf in 99% of cases, and make players feel better about the whole situation. The only really devastating nerf at the moment is Swipe, and that is the change Thief players really need to focus on. It is the only real way to get ANet's attention on it. After that is dealt with, maybe then it will be better to have a conversation about the trait layout.

    Swipe range is another discussion, here is traits reorder. It seems I'm the only one here that created a poll and lose his time to argue his point of view.
    If for you swipe range is so important, create a poll, you will have my YES to fix the range at least at 900.
    If the problem is that a discussion steals votes to another and you vote NO for this reason, well, this way we'll never gain nothing.

    I asked you: in what the layout I have proposed is worse then the AN's actual layout? You talk about old traits and new traits: it is a nerf or not respect the old layout with the old traits.
    Which one is better? That is the poll question!

    I apologize if I was rude, in this post or in previous.

  • SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes.

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    Actully I do play condi D/D. The big hit is swipe as there little in the way of means to engage. I never took brawlers tenacity my own d/d condition build as I relied on SOM as the heal over the Channled vigor heal and I favored neelde trap or a venom over impairing daggers. In other words there little in the skills that brawlers tenacity allowed a lower cooldown for that I preferred.

    Escapists fortitude will now be my go to in that build and this will work with weakening strikes. Granted there little in the Masters tiers I like but this was the same as with the old layour where there nothing in the adept tier.

    In your revised layout I still would not take brawlers. I would go Escapists and marauders resilience. Now that on paper would put me ahead but that said excluding SWIPE , the existing build is ahead of where it once was.

    If you play D/D condi, you can see that in actual layout Major Master tier is completely useless.
    In the layout I have proposed you could play with: [BT + EF + MR] or [WS + EF + MR].
    You lose nothing, you gain only.

    I sometimes play D/D condi builds.. I used to play it with BT + EA+Dash dodge, Channeled Vigor + Bandit's Defense + Signet of Agility + Shadowstep + Dagger Storm (I posted my condi builds here on forum just yesterday in an other discussion).
    I tried it after last patch and I have to say that Swipe change is not a problem but a buff for my build (cause unblockable). I really miss Brawler's Tenacity (cause now I play with EF + WS + HS + Dash dodge).
    Two hours of roaming against Gandara and Baruch Bay and I died only two times (and never in a 1vs1) achieving lots of kills. So it still works.
    But with my layout it'll work better B)

  • HyperLooser.2698HyperLooser.2698 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    pve will suffer if this gets changed again, so one side looses no matter what.

  • SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2019
    Yes.

    @HyperLooser.2698 said:
    pve will suffer if this gets changed again, so one side looses no matter what.

    If you could run with [Havoc Specialist + Staff Master + Bounding Dodger] you will have a better DPS. How PvE will suffer?

    Have you read at least the layout I have proposed?

    @SehferViega.8725 said:

    • Minor Adept: Physical Supremacy
    • Major Adept:
    1. Havoc Specialist
    2. Brawler's Tenacity
    3. Weakening Strikes
    • Minor Master: Escapist's Fortitude
    • Major Master:
    1. Staff Master
    2. Marauder's Resilience
    3. Impacting Disruption
    • Minor Grandmaster: Endurance Thief
    • Major Grandmaster:
    1. Bounding Dodger
    2. Unhindered Combatant (Dash dodge)
    3. Lotus Training
  • Lociaz.4027Lociaz.4027 Member ✭✭
    edited April 28, 2019
    Yes.

    @SehferViega.8725 said:
    "Daredevil traits have been reworked to focus on three categories: choosing your defense in the Adept tier; choosing your damage in the Master tier; and choosing your dodge maneuver in the Grandmaster tier."
    This is no sense, produce a nerf of Daredevil and limits player choices: for example in pve you need to maximize DPS (and now we usually play Havoc mastery, Staff Master and Bounding Dodger) while in WvW you need defensive traits (like Brawler's Tenacity).
    Be obliged to play and choose a defensive trait in PvE where we suffer a lack of damage and we don't need survability have no sense.
    That's why I propose to reorganize new Daredevil traits in order to have a defensive, offensive and "utility" choice for each tier (Major Adept, Major Master, Major Grandmaster) as indicated below (and as it has always been):

    • Minor Adept: Physical Supremacy
    • Major Adept:
    1. Havoc Specialist
    2. Brawler's Tenacity
    3. Weakening Strikes
    • Minor Master: Escapist's Fortitude
    • Major Master:
    1. Staff Master
    2. Marauder's Resilience
    3. Impacting Disruption
    • Minor Grandmaster: Endurance Thief
    • Major Grandmaster:
    1. Bounding Dodger
    2. Unhindered Combatant (Dash dodge)
    3. Lotus Training

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048
    I hope you and your balance team see this!

  • SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2019
    Yes.

    @Lociaz.4027 said:
    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048
    I hope you and your balance team see this!

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 ;)