Make Swipe 900 Range

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

@"Basharic.1654" said:Spreading this around as I posted in the Balance notes thread . . .

Here's my question:

With this update, we are adding a trade-off to the profession skill that keeps the theme of a melee-oriented specialization.

How does removing a Daredevil's ability to use steal to close a long gap help us melee in any way?

If Anet wants us to melee they should be giving us more abilities to stick to a target not less. The range drop would be appropriate if we were getting something useful towards that end. Unblockable isn't it.

Maybe something like:

Physical Supremacy: This trait changes Steal to Hitched, which tethers the target to the thief and gives the thief a stolen skill and X seconds of X% base damage reduction. Toughness improves total reduction. Neither can leave 600 range of each other for X seconds. Stunbreaks used by either the thief or it's target will break the link. If either party attempts to use a skill to get out of range that is not a stun break it results in a knockdown and puts that skill on cooldown + X seconds. Stability applied after Hitched is engaged counters certain effects of Hitched but does not remove it - That means an attempted non-stunbreak maneuver to get out of range won't give the knockdown but the target still can't leave range. Stability applied before would prevent it of course.

It would work a lot like Guardian's Ring of Warding while allowing some counterplay for the target and helping the thief to be toe to toe for the duration. Most importantly it offers significant risk/reward choices in its use. Which is all I want.

And if you wanted to make it really sexy and give thief a GvG/WvW group perk, let it affect targets in an AOE. Would force the thief to use discretion on its use in small scale and be great for locking down targets for bombs.

Actually I like the guild wars one "Scorpion Wire" effect that sorta acted like magebane tether in gw2, however something like mirrored stance from gw1 might be a nice combo with its gw1 effect as well. I suggest make it called "mirrored stance or SHADOW MELD" but read "mimic target foe and gain matching effects whenever foe gains them but at 50% effectiveness but lasting just as long. when foe leaves 600 range you teleport automatically to that foe and the foe is knocked down for 3 seconds.

The knockdown triggers steal traits. Boon removal traits from steal remove booms first before knockdown. The mirrored stance effect can mimic ALL effects & boons from any class/elite spec full duration but half of the effectiveness (reduced damage at 15 would be halved/might stacks would be 5 instead of 10). ADDED BONUS you can cast this on allies and get full effects of what they get but no negative effects.

[babazhook.6805]

Ok...Compromise. leave swipe at 600. Leave it unblockable. Add steal all boons !

[Skada.1362]

How about we make Swipe 1500 + range and 1 shot people? Wait that sounds just like...

[Kolly.9872]

@babazhook.6805 said:Ok...Compromise. leave swipe at 600. Leave it unblockable. Add steal all boons !

Make swipe 1200 unblockable steal all boons and a Stunbreak. That is more in line with what other elite spec got

[Kolly.9872]

@Kolly.9872 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Ok...Compromise. leave swipe at 600. Leave it unblockable. Add steal all boons !

Make swipe 1200 unblockable steal all boons and a Stunbreak. That is more in line with what other elite spec got

I forgot.. make mug to crit again

[derd.6413]

@babazhook.6805 said:Ok...Compromise. leave swipe at 600. Leave it unblockable. Add steal all boons !

let it steal 50 endurance instead

[fluidmonolith.3584]

I've been thinking a bit more about Swipe, and I would rather see it differentiated more from Steal (like Deadeye's Mark), rather than just being a mini-Steal. There are many, many ways to do this. I will give one example:

For Daredevils, Steal becomes Swipe: dash forward and disarm your opponent

• 600 range leap: no longer a shadowstep; because it's a leap, you can now use it to cover distance even without a target in range, though loses the functionality of being able to teleport to targets above you.
• unblockable, 0.5sec cast, 30sec cooldown
• Grants the thief 3sec super speed after the leap, even if the attack misses. This to help close distance since Daredevil is intended to be a melee fighter.
• Does 400 damage and weakens the enemy for 2 seconds (synergy with Weakening Strikes)
• No longer gives stolen skills instead gives 1 charge of 'throw weapon', a 900 range attack that causes 800 damage and weakens enemy for 4 seconds, 0.5sec cast. Improvisation gives an extra charge.

I think this would make Daredevil feel very much like a melee skirmisher, and it would still be useful for closing distances (again, unless the target is above you). It would have a clear tradeoff vs Steal, since it loses range and is no longer an instant shadowstep. While it retains the unblockable that ANet added, since it's a leap, it's possible for opponents to see it coming and dodge it if they can react quickly enough (PvP, WvW).

[derd.6413]

@fluidmonolith.3584 said:I've been thinking a bit more about Swipe, and I would rather see it differentiated more from Steal (like Deadeye's Mark), rather than just being a mini-Steal. There are many, many ways to do this. I will give one example:

For Daredevils, Steal becomes Swipe: dash forward and disarm your opponent

• 600 range leap: no longer a shadowstep; because it's a leap, you can now use it to cover distance even without a target in range, though loses the functionality of being able to teleport to targets above you.
• unblockable, 0.5sec cast, 30sec cooldown
• Grants the thief 3sec super speed after the leap, even if the attack misses. This to help close distance since Daredevil is intended to be a melee fighter.
• Does 400 damage and weakens the enemy for 2 seconds (synergy with Weakening Strikes)
• No longer gives stolen skills instead gives 1 charge of 'throw weapon', a 900 range attack that causes 800 damage and weakens enemy for 4 seconds, 0.5sec cast. Improvisation gives an extra charge.

I think this would make Daredevil feel very much like a melee skirmisher, and it would still be useful for closing distances (again, unless the target is above you). It would have a clear tradeoff vs Steal, since it loses range and is no longer an instant shadowstep. While it retains the unblockable that ANet added, since it's a leap, it's possible for opponents to see it coming and dodge it if they can react quickly enough (PvP, WvW).

remove the superspeed and the throw weapon thing and i think it'd be a good change

[Genesis.8572]

If they wanted to make a trade-off for Daredevil, they could have made it simply a 1200 unblockable shadowstep but removed the "skill stealing" benefits from ability.

[DemonSeed.3528]

On successful swipe, give it an ammo of 3 leaps that do big damage. Hmm, saying swipe sounds dirty.

[omgdracula.6345]

I mean if anything it should be 1200 range. Daredevils are known to doing crazy long distance stunts. Unless they completely had no idea what they were doing when they named the spec.

[omgdracula.6345]

I would be fine overall with this change if they went back and retooled weapon sets and adjusted core trait lines to be better but they didn't. Especially changing it after 3 years just for what seems shytes and giggles

[SehferViega.8725]

@fluidmonolith.3584 said:I've been thinking a bit more about Swipe, and I would rather see it differentiated more from Steal (like Deadeye's Mark), rather than just being a mini-Steal. There are many, many ways to do this. I will give one example:

For Daredevils, Steal becomes Swipe: dash forward and disarm your opponent

• 600 range leap: no longer a shadowstep; because it's a leap, you can now use it to cover distance even without a target in range, though loses the functionality of being able to teleport to targets above you.
• unblockable, 0.5sec cast, 30sec cooldown
• Grants the thief 3sec super speed after the leap, even if the attack misses. This to help close distance since Daredevil is intended to be a melee fighter.
• Does 400 damage and weakens the enemy for 2 seconds (synergy with Weakening Strikes)
• No longer gives stolen skills instead gives 1 charge of 'throw weapon', a 900 range attack that causes 800 damage and weakens enemy for 4 seconds, 0.5sec cast. Improvisation gives an extra charge.

I think this would make Daredevil feel very much like a melee skirmisher, and it would still be useful for closing distances (again, unless the target is above you). It would have a clear tradeoff vs Steal, since it loses range and is no longer an instant shadowstep. While it retains the unblockable that ANet added, since it's a leap, it's possible for opponents to see it coming and dodge it if they can react quickly enough (PvP, WvW).

A leap.. OMG. Have you ever played thief?Steal is a skill used in combination with Backstab, Heartseeker, Cloak and Dagger, Black Powder, Infiltrator's Strike, Flanking Strike, ecc.. to close the distance gap and hit with the skill precasted.A leap will be completely useless. Just think about leaping (like war do with Savage Leap) against a war, a mirage or a soulbeast= instant death.

[Exitus.3297]

I think people may be trying to overcomplicate it a bit. Changing it to 900 range in the future seems like a realistic change, assuming they don't try to add another mechanic to it to make the tradeoff more worth it.

[omgdracula.6345]

@Exitus.3297 said:I think people may be trying to overcomplicate it a bit. Changing it to 900 range in the future seems like a realistic change, assuming they don't try to add another mechanic to it to make the tradeoff more worth it.

The consensus I have seen is just make it 900 as far as the thief community goes. So that D/P can still be viable as build diversity suffered heavily due to this. There is 0 reason to go anything but Core S/D now.

[Exitus.3297]

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Exitus.3297 said:I think people may be trying to overcomplicate it a bit. Changing it to 900 range in the future seems like a realistic change, assuming they don't try to add another mechanic to it to make the tradeoff more worth it.

The consensus I have seen is just make it 900 as far as the thief community goes. So that D/P can still be viable as build diversity suffered heavily due to this. There is 0 reason to go anything but Core S/D now.

That pretty much sums up this situation nicely. The only thing is that would have to likely remove the unblockable aspect of Swipe (maybe). Obviously they can't just remove the unblockable affect and make it 900 range, because then it would literally be a 900 range steal. I guess they could keep it unblockable with 900 range because the unblockable effect isn't that much a buff, but I doubt they would see it that way.

[omgdracula.6345]

@Exitus.3297 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Exitus.3297 said:I think people may be trying to overcomplicate it a bit. Changing it to 900 range in the future seems like a realistic change, assuming they don't try to add another mechanic to it to make the tradeoff more worth it.

The consensus I have seen is just make it 900 as far as the thief community goes. So that D/P can still be viable as build diversity suffered heavily due to this. There is 0 reason to go anything but Core S/D now.

That pretty much sums up this situation nicely. The only thing is that would have to likely remove the unblockable aspect of Swipe (maybe). Obviously they can't just remove the unblockable affect and make it 900 range, because then it would literally be a 900 range steal. I guess they could keep it unblockable with 900 range because the unblockable effect isn't that much a buff, but I doubt they would see it that way.

Which is what leads me to the other issue which is they don't listen to player feedback. Let alone from high tier players like sind, hitzer, vallun who always give good suggestions. Which is a massive mistake. Any average thief player would know that Aegis isn't an issue as it always gets stripped. So the only unblockable skills that swipe would be useful against is channeled. Which you just wait out anyways.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@omgdracula.6345 said:So like pretty much everyone I was shocked to see that Steal was changed when using DD to swipe after 3 years of HoT being out. Which that in and of itself is just odd. I understand why it was done(to keep consistent with the theme of steal changing based on elite spec), but 50% of the range makes DrD pretty much not worth taking. In turn since DrD is not great to take means S/D Core will be pretty much the only viable build as D/P with this change if it stays, and feedback to give it 900 range at least is ignored will be dead.

I think it is fair to give swipe 900 range. I base this on the fact is actually makes sense on a numbers basis.

Deadeye's Mark - 1,500 RangeSteal - 1,200 RangeSwipe - 900 Range

If you feel 900 range is still to far for an unblockable attack, well that is just silly but feel free to give us something else because as I said steal being blockable wasn't an issue.

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 Could we have an open dialogue about this please?

Trade the ability to steal for different F skill that matches daredevil concept.

Physical supremacy should increase health and toughness, otherwise how can we really be effective at melee for any extended period?

Daredevil still is expected to be a decap +1 bot. I don't even know what the identity of DE is SPvP.

What's the plan? What's the vision for thief, for daredevil?

[omgdracula.6345]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:So like pretty much everyone I was shocked to see that Steal was changed when using DD to swipe after 3 years of HoT being out. Which that in and of itself is just odd. I understand why it was done(to keep consistent with the theme of steal changing based on elite spec), but 50% of the range makes DrD pretty much not worth taking. In turn since DrD is not great to take means S/D Core will be pretty much the only viable build as D/P with this change if it stays, and feedback to give it 900 range at least is ignored will be dead.

I think it is fair to give swipe 900 range. I base this on the fact is actually makes sense on a numbers basis.

Deadeye's Mark - 1,500 RangeSteal - 1,200 RangeSwipe - 900 Range

If you feel 900 range is still to far for an unblockable attack, well that is just silly but feel free to give us something else because as I said steal being blockable wasn't an issue.

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 Could we have an open dialogue about this please?

Trade the ability to steal for different F skill that matches daredevil concept.

Physical supremacy should increase health and toughness, otherwise how can we really be effective at melee for any extended period?

Daredevil still is expected to be a decap +1 bot. I don't even know what the identity of DE is SPvP.

What's the plan? What's the vision for thief, for daredevil?

DE is nothing more than a meme in sPvP. Bronze rank troll build of players that ignore it.

[Exitus.3297]

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Exitus.3297 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Exitus.3297 said:I think people may be trying to overcomplicate it a bit. Changing it to 900 range in the future seems like a realistic change, assuming they don't try to add another mechanic to it to make the tradeoff more worth it.

The consensus I have seen is just make it 900 as far as the thief community goes. So that D/P can still be viable as build diversity suffered heavily due to this. There is 0 reason to go anything but Core S/D now.

That pretty much sums up this situation nicely. The only thing is that would have to likely remove the unblockable aspect of Swipe (maybe). Obviously they can't just remove the unblockable affect and make it 900 range, because then it would literally be a 900 range steal. I guess they could keep it unblockable with 900 range because the unblockable effect isn't that much a buff, but I doubt they would see it that way.

Which is what leads me to the other issue which is they don't listen to player feedback. Let alone from high tier players like sind, hitzer, vallun who always give good suggestions. Which is a massive mistake. Any average thief player would know that Aegis isn't an issue as it always gets stripped. So the only unblockable skills that swipe would be useful against is channeled. Which you just wait out anyways.

Hit the nail right on the head. I imagine that Sindrener in particular would have an easier time communicating these things to ANet if he were still partnered with them. Still, it would be wise if ANet took their feedback seriously. They wouldn't necessarily even have to listen to every suggestion they make, but rather just go to them and say "What do you think of this, this, this and this?"

What's odd to me is that ANet isn't even dealing with a playerbase telling them what to do. They are actively avoiding a playerbase telling them "You can do whatever you want, as long as it isn't X."

[omgdracula.6345]

@Exitus.3297 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Exitus.3297 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Exitus.3297 said:I think people may be trying to overcomplicate it a bit. Changing it to 900 range in the future seems like a realistic change, assuming they don't try to add another mechanic to it to make the tradeoff more worth it.

The consensus I have seen is just make it 900 as far as the thief community goes. So that D/P can still be viable as build diversity suffered heavily due to this. There is 0 reason to go anything but Core S/D now.

That pretty much sums up this situation nicely. The only thing is that would have to likely remove the unblockable aspect of Swipe (maybe). Obviously they can't just remove the unblockable affect and make it 900 range, because then it would literally be a 900 range steal. I guess they could keep it unblockable with 900 range because the unblockable effect isn't that much a buff, but I doubt they would see it that way.

Which is what leads me to the other issue which is they don't listen to player feedback. Let alone from high tier players like sind, hitzer, vallun who always give good suggestions. Which is a massive mistake. Any average thief player would know that Aegis isn't an issue as it always gets stripped. So the only unblockable skills that swipe would be useful against is channeled. Which you just wait out anyways.

Hit the nail right on the head. I imagine that Sindrener in particular would have an easier time communicating these things to ANet if he were still partnered with them. Still, it would be wise if ANet took their feedback seriously. They wouldn't necessarily even have to listen to every suggestion they make, but rather just go to them and say "What do you think of this, this, this and this?"

What's odd to me is that ANet isn't even dealing with a playerbase telling them what to do. They are actively avoiding a playerbase telling them "You can do whatever you want, as long as it isn't X."

It is crazy because I play The Division 2 and Massive the developers are super transparent with the community and communicate heavily. The Division 1 they actually got top clans together and asked for advice on what needed changing and it revived the game.

[SehferViega.8725]

900r with unblockable will be acceptable.

600r needs a traits reorganization but also with a different layout create lots of problems against some classes.

1200 range as before will be perfect XD

[babazhook.6805]

Well I took my d/d daredevil in to try it out and the change to steal kills that spec. There simply no way to engage an enemy in melee without getting cut down before you even close enough. You can not rely on stealth as the CND works only at melee. Trying to dodge in is fruitless as it just leaves you without defenses. I supsect other sets with no ports will have same issues. If in d/d I see no options other than core.