Design problems of Swipe

[Safandula.8723]

So im not gonna focus on, why is 600 range steal bad, but why is bad at thatmoment.I completly agree thats elite specs should have traid off. U realised it and started to work on that, good.U wanted to change daredevil into brawler, more duelling spec, which i like, as i like to vault over ppl. U change daredevil traitline pretty well imo, but there is 1 big failure. The unblockable part. Unblockable steal is useless by itself, and it benefits ony from few traits.Sleight of hand - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sleight_of_HandBewildering ambush - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bewildering_AmbushBountifull theft - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_TheftMug - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mug

So lets imagine we got no trickery, but we have mug on DA. we can Land 1500 dmg attack on everyone who is blocking. We deal 1500 dmg, heal some life and its all, player is still blocking, we dont get anything else, we cant do anything more.Now lets talk about trickery traitline. We want to utilize Sleight of hand to daze target. Here we need unblockable part, but we already took trickery so wehave bountifull theft which steal aegis. We dont rly gain much form unblockable Swipe. It doesnt rly synergise with a Way thats thief is made right now.So if we want to have use of swipe, we need trickery anyway, which im fact is mandatory in every possible thief build. Thanks to all the boons that we can get, and to do Our job in fighting other classes.

Solutions that should be made at this point:

1. Give swipe unblockable for 1-2 seconds after succesfull swipe land.
2. Make prepardness a baseline. 12 initiative is absolute garbage, and in the time of powercreep we need it, to be able to think about droping trickery for anything else.
3. Change stolen skills. If u want to bring daredevils into melee, we need more possibilities to do so. Giving another tools to fight in melee, would be good traid off, instead of just steal with reduced range

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Just making preparedness baseline would open up the possibility of running DA and CS which would help alleviate thiefs dps-sustain issues as well as add build diversity as trickery wouldn't be a need to have traitline in every build. I really dont know how arenanet hasn't seen that but maybe I'm wrong and it's not a good idea.

[Alatar.7364]

@"Safandula.8723" said:So im not gonna focus on, why is 600 range steal bad, but why is bad at thatmoment.I completly agree thats elite specs should have traid off. U realised it and started to work on that, good.U wanted to change daredevil into brawler, more duelling spec, which i like, as i like to vault over ppl. U change daredevil traitline pretty well imo, but there is 1 big failure. The unblockable part. Unblockable steal is useless by itself, and it benefits ony from few traits.Sleight of hand - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sleight_of_HandBewildering ambush - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bewildering_AmbushBountifull theft - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_TheftMug - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mug

So lets imagine we got no trickery, but we have mug on DA. we can Land 1500 dmg attack on everyone who is blocking. We deal 1500 dmg, heal some life and its all, player is still blocking, we dont get anything else, we cant do anything more.Now lets talk about trickery traitline. We want to utilize Sleight of hand to daze target. Here we need unblockable part, but we already took trickery so wehave bountifull theft which steal aegis. We dont rly gain much form unblockable Swipe. It doesnt rly synergise with a Way thats thief is made right now.So if we want to have use of swipe, we need trickery anyway, which im fact is mandatory in every possible thief build. Thanks to all the boons that we can get, and to do Our job in fighting other classes.

Solutions that should be made at this point:

1. Give swipe unblockable for 1-2 seconds after succesfull swipe land.
2. Make prepardness a baseline. 12 initiative is absolute garbage, and in the time of powercreep we need it, to be able to think about droping trickery for anything else.
3. Change stolen skills. If u want to bring daredevils into melee, we need more possibilities to do so. Giving another tools to fight in melee, would be good traid off, instead of just steal with reduced range

Maybe Swipe as a whole for DD would not be as much of an issue if the goal of making it Dueler was actually achieved. No DD build can stand toe to toe with any single other dueler build (or any spec at that that is not full glass ele or something) so Swipe itself is still out of touch with reality.Marauder's Resillience while very good idea and a good step to make DD more dueling oriented, turned out to be more or less no change at all, it adds cca 1,2k hp which is extremelly neglible, the 10% dmg reduction is pretty good though, but as I said DD still cant stand toe to toe with anyone none the less because of how unproportionally more powerful other specs are. If some dmg was moved from Vault to Staff AA (and undoing the recent Staff AA nerf, which I completely dont understand why it happened in the first place) then it would be one more step to achieve what Anet seems to set out to achieve.Anyway, as you said, to make it better it is not just issue of DD but other Trait lines as well.

To make my post more on topic; I really agree with points 2. and 3.

[derd.6413]

but what about the dodges?

[InsaneQR.7412]

Maybe a duration of unblockable after the swipe would be something.Some cleave on it would also be nice. And overall dmg on it to emphasize on the brawling.

[Safandula.8723]

@derd.6413 said:but what about the dodges?

What about them?

[derd.6413]

@Safandula.8723 said:

@"derd.6413" said:but what about the dodges?

What about them?

i said this many times in other threads but

swipe is not supposed to be equal to core steal it's supposed to be a downgrade for getting the benefits of DrD dodges (which aren't mentioned in any discussion). i'm not saying this because "change was good anet perfect slurp slurp" as some ppl seem to take it but rather that we should improve the DrD dodge mechanic to where a downgrade to steal would be justifiable rather then put swipe on equal grounds with core steal.

[Zexanima.7851]

@derd.6413 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@derd.6413 said:but what about the dodges?

What about them?

i said this many times in other threads but

swipe is not supposed to be equal to core steal it's supposed to be a downgrade for getting the benefits of DrD dodges (which aren't mentioned in any discussion). i'm not saying this because "change was good anet perfect slurp slurp^" as some ppl seem to take it but rather that we should improve the DrD dodge mechanic to where a downgrade to steal would be justifiable rather then put swipe on equal grounds with core steal.

This is probably the best way to go but what could they add to dodges that would make up for the steal nerf? Ideally it would be something to help thief brawl better. These ideas may be too OP but I'm just throwing stuff out there;

• On Guard: Evading with dodge grants 2s of Protection
• Radiant Exhaustion: When your endurance (EDIT:) falls under 15 chill(2s) and slow(2s) 3 enemies around you (15s icd)
• Deep Breathing: Gain a stack every time you apply weakness to a foe. At 5 stacks gain 1.5s of quickness and 3s of superspeed.

[HyperLooser.2698]

I think they should just made daredevil steal into close range damage punch or kick or smt, would fit more themathically

[foste.3098]

What if they changed swipe to be a more aggressive short ranged steal, it would fit with the whole thief brawler/duelist play style which is the direction they want to take daredevil judging by all the damage reduction traits and the weakness spewing minor (just as a funny aside, daredevils in wvw can get up to 50% damage reduction without protection it is amazing).Something like gaining x unblockable attacks or x seconds of unblock-a-ability upon a successful swipe. Or maybe make swipe apply ~5 sec of blindness and cripple baseline so that you can use it to prevent a hit while reducing the kiting ability of your target (i know sleight of hand does this already but daze followed by a blind would be even better).Alternatively they could make new swipe specific class stolen skills like they did with dead eye, because lets face it all but 3 core class stolen skills are underwhelming.

[Safandula.8723]

@derd.6413 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@derd.6413 said:but what about the dodges?

What about them?

i said this many times in other threads but

swipe is not supposed to be equal to core steal it's supposed to be a downgrade for getting the benefits of DrD dodges (which aren't mentioned in any discussion). i'm not saying this because "change was good anet perfect

slurp slurp

" as some ppl seem to take it but rather that we should improve the DrD dodge mechanic to where a downgrade to steal would be justifiable rather then put swipe on equal grounds with core steal.

I kinda agree, but daredevil in its current state is not able to compete with any duelers/team fighters in spvp. Imo dodges are fine, it just lacks more survi. Ur out of dodges and ur dead in 1 secs.So rn dd is not able to roam properly, nor duel nor teamfight

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Safandula.8723 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@derd.6413 said:but what about the dodges?

What about them?

i said this many times in other threads but

swipe is not supposed to be equal to core steal it's supposed to be a downgrade for getting the benefits of DrD dodges (which aren't mentioned in any discussion). i'm not saying this because "change was good anet perfect

slurp slurp

" as some ppl seem to take it but rather that we should improve the DrD dodge mechanic to where a downgrade to steal would be justifiable rather then put swipe on equal grounds with core steal.

I kinda agree, but daredevil in its current state is not able to compete with any duelers/team fighters in spvp. Imo dodges are fine, it just lacks more survi. Ur out of dodges and ur dead in 1 secs.So rn dd is not able to roam properly, nor duel nor teamfight

The problem is arenanet needs to stop listen to non thief players who dont want thief to be a viable dueler,and theres more non thief players than thief players so the feed back has alot more thiefs OP and thiefs sustain and dps is fine l2p etc. U cant tell me the dev balancing thief is doing 1v1 on DD thinking yeah this seems viable lol or maybe thier thought is it seems weak cuz I dont play it much but I'm sure it's fine for players who play it lol or maybe they just go off number data lmao