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Petition to remove invulnerability from Downstate in WvW


Hadi.3167

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One of my favorite events is the No downstate week. So fun to cleave past people , and the fights seem so much more tense. But i hate when the event is over and we're back to fighting tanky zerg / support builds. Is there any way we can petition or vote to just remove the invulnerability from downstate all together like they did with PvP ?

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I actually dislike the no down state week. As a healer and supports, I barely get any wexp out of the blob fight. I cannot even tag anything. It doesnt feel like I am contributing to the fight. The fight is over so fast. I cannot even rez ppl.

With that said, if u remove the invulnerqbiltiy from the down, if you go down, you will literally melt in 0.1 second in zerg vs zerg, whoever that was standing the front line and ate the initial bomb. There will be no possible ways to save them.

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@"Ryudnard.2587" said:I actually dislike the no down state week. As a healer and supports, I barely get any wexp out of the blob fight. I cannot even tag anything. It doesnt feel like I am contributing to the fight. The fight is over so fast. I cannot even rez ppl.

With that said, if u remove the invulnerqbiltiy from the down, if you go down, you will literally melt in 0.1 second in zerg vs zerg, whoever that was standing the front line and ate the initial bomb. There will be no possible ways to save them.

True but the same could be said when they added Mounts to the game. The dismount "Superior Battle Maul" literally finishes people instantly. At least they snuck in a 5 second dismount ICD that they DID NOT INCLUDE IN THE PATCH NOTES MIND YOU. So people cant just finish , run out of combat in 2 seconds and repeat. Unpopular opinion.. I dislike mounts in WvW and i dislike the instant finish Battle Maul skill. it really ruins the WvW experience.

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One of my favorite thing in wvw is rallying off of noobs that die to my meteors because I die from retal without anyone even touching me. But I hate how revs and thieves do more damage with 1 button with no risk and no damage penalty based on number of hits. Can we have a petition to remove retal from affecting squishy builds that hit often, like staff ele and lb ranger?

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Agreed with OP. Downed health is so large anyways that it doesn't need extra invul.

@Ryudnard.2587 said:I actually dislike the no down state week. As a healer and supports, I barely get any wexp out of the blob fight. I cannot even tag anything. It doesnt feel like I am contributing to the fight. The fight is over so fast. I cannot even rez ppl.

With that said, if u remove the invulnerqbiltiy from the down, if you go down, you will literally melt in 0.1 second in zerg vs zerg, whoever that was standing the front line and ate the initial bomb. There will be no possible ways to save them.

If you die in the initial bomb, you aren't worth a res anyways because either you're lagging or don't know how to use your skills. You're just endangering people who try to res you as your group has already pushed through. As a result, it's better if you die at the start of the fight so you don't rally anyone.

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@"ArchonWing.9480" said:If you die in the initial bomb, you aren't worth a res anyways because either you're lagging or don't know how to use your skills. You're just endangering people who try to res you as your group has already pushed through. As a result, it's better if you die at the start of the fight so you don't rally anyone.If two zergs argue that against each other then there is little point in arguing the "initial bomb" as anyone dying period is never worth ressing and dont know how to use their skills.

Its called bomb for a reason you know.

But I suppose you've never died.

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Removal or not of the invuln won't make Downed State any more tolerable. Its an outdated mechanic thats been made problematic by the addition of "Dedicated healing" on classes now. Also yeah...can they just remove NPCs in general from WvW? Would be nice.

At the risk of a wall of text and so I don't have to keep typing this over and over again I'll just quote something I posted in another thread;

Personally I love No Downed state. It does make winning outnumbered fights much easier since people aren't carried by downed state and rally, which many, many people are.

Its why I've tried to advocate for discussion around completely reworking revives as a mechanic in GW2 in PvP modes like sPvP and WvW, especially considering how strong and abundant healing builds are now. They literally just buffed Ventari Rev and made it stronger. So not only do we have Firebrand, Scrapper and Tempest (which also got a healing buff in the last patch) but now we have Revenant with a healing build. Downed State is becoming redundant and problematic as a "support" mechanic for players. Do I want them to remove reviving as a mechanic in the game? No. Not at all. I want them to improve it. I would much rather them remove downed state and add/change some skills that heal or revive Downed players so that it brings them back to life from full dead but put those skills, like Battle Standard, onto 5 minute cooldowns (also only making them revive 1 player) so they aren't available too frequently but still allow for clutch revives during fights. The longer cooldown and tying it to a skill with a cooldown would just allow for much better and healthier counterplay.

Would it make these skills required for zerg play or group play? Yes but I don't see a problem with that, at competitive levels in GW1 GvG and otherwise Res Signet was essentially required in builds for most players with maybe the exception of 1 or 2 people on your team. It would also create more diversity among zergs if you, for example, make sure a set couple of Spellbreakers use Winds of Disenchantment but also make sure several have Battle Standard available. It would mean coordinating for revives during a zerg vs zerg fight would be an important and tactical aspect of winning, surviving or prolonging the engagement.

Oh and in regards to the Scrapper Function Gyro mechanic also being made "obsolete" should something like this happen....Anet can turn it into an actual active use skill on or adjacent to the Toolbelt skills and have it function purely as a support skill. Basically a drone defibrillator that the Scrapper sends out to revive an ally.

Another thing to address in regards to an argument against it that I see sometimes, also one that people say is the reason why Anet would never do this; Finishers.

Anet makes money off of Finishers as a cosmetic item from the Gem Store. This is true and if they removed downed state and stomping from the game then they would essentially be nullifying and "deleting" an entire subset of cash shop items. Some people have suggested that they simply change it so that if you land the "killing blow" on an enemy that your finisher is the one that applies over their body when they die. People are right in that it could cause lag and such in an already laggy mode for many.

I have a different solution. Turn it into an emote or an effect similar to Novelties. Players already "taunt" with /laugh or /sleep and other things that even enemy players can see and they already throw siege onto your corpse if they want to "bm" you, and the premise of Finishers is already kind of a taunt, don't you think? Dropping an SAB pixel explosion onto that enemy you just downed? The Llama finisher? Choya? Hidden Minstrel? All rather...taunting but "fun" and "funny", right? So if the concern for Anet is that Finishers would just become obsolete then why not shift their use? Turn them into "Taunts" or "Boasts", I'm sure there could be another name. It would also make it something usable in PvE and probably give more incentive to PvE players to actually buy these cosmetic items as they wouldn't need to play in PvP to see something they spent money or gems on.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"ArchonWing.9480" said:If you die in the initial bomb, you aren't worth a res anyways because either you're lagging or don't know how to use your skills. You're just endangering people who try to res you as your group has already pushed through. As a result, it's better if you die at the start of the fight so you don't rally anyone.If two zergs argue that against each other then there is little point in arguing the "initial bomb" as anyone dying period is never worth ressing and dont know how to use their skills.

Its called bomb for a reason you know

But I suppose you've never died.

I mean, it's called bomb, so don't walk into it. And I do die; it's because I play badly and should accept the result.

The start of a fight is when you have all of your defensive cooldowns, all of your stunbreaks, and especially, all of your dodges. If you regularly 1-push and have to write a story about why it happened then it's pretty obvious that you are going to do worse when cooldowns are out. So they are not the same thing. And we're specifically talking about frontline, so we're either talking about frontliners who most certainly shouldn't down that fast unless they are being pin sniped or backliners that stuck their head out too far.

Of course everyone makes mistakes, everyone lags, and everyone gets caught off guard. But regardless of why you went down, you are a liability and can cause more people to go down. Whether you die or not in 1 or 2s is kind of splitting hairs if you ask me. This is the same reason why a lot of zergs fall apart; the commander downs and everyone tries to be hero and res him/her.... making a convenient bomb spot.

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:If you die in the initial bomb, you aren't worth a res anyways because either you're lagging or don't know how to use your skills. You're just endangering people who try to res you as your group has already pushed through. As a result, it's better if you die at the start of the fight so you don't rally anyone.If two zergs argue that against each other then there is little point in arguing the "initial bomb" as anyone dying period is never worth ressing and dont know how to use their skills.

Its called bomb for a reason you know

But I suppose you've never died.

I mean, it's called bomb, so don't walk into it. And I do die; it's because I play badly and should accept the result.

The start of a fight is when you have all of your defensive cooldowns, all of your stunbreaks, and especially, all of your dodges. If you regularly 1-push and have to write a story about why it happened then it's pretty obvious that you are going to do worse when cooldowns are out. So they are not the same thing. And we're specifically talking about frontline, so we're either talking about frontliners who most certainly shouldn't down that fast unless they are being pin sniped or backliners that stuck their head out too far.

Of course everyone makes mistakes, everyone lags, and everyone gets caught off guard. But regardless of why you went down, you are a liability and can cause more people to go down. Whether you die or not in 1 or 2s is kind of splitting hairs if you ask me. This is the same reason why a lot of zergs fall apart; the commander downs and everyone tries to be hero and res him/her.... making a convenient bomb spot.The entire premise for this though is that players can only play bad enough to die in a bomb despite them using every defensive cooldown they can and never good enough to kill with a bomb by using every stunlock in their arsenal to overcome defensive cooldowns.
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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:If you die in the initial bomb, you aren't worth a res anyways because either you're lagging or don't know how to use your skills. You're just endangering people who try to res you as your group has already pushed through. As a result, it's better if you die at the start of the fight so you don't rally anyone.If two zergs argue that against each other then there is little point in arguing the "initial bomb" as anyone dying period is never worth ressing and dont know how to use their skills.

Its called bomb for a reason you know

But I suppose you've never died.

I mean, it's called bomb, so don't walk into it. And I do die; it's because I play badly and should accept the result.

The start of a fight is when you have all of your defensive cooldowns, all of your stunbreaks, and especially, all of your dodges. If you regularly 1-push and have to write a story about why it happened then it's pretty obvious that you are going to do worse when cooldowns are out. So they are not the same thing. And we're specifically talking about frontline, so we're either talking about frontliners who most certainly shouldn't down that fast unless they are being pin sniped or backliners that stuck their head out too far.

Of course everyone makes mistakes, everyone lags, and everyone gets caught off guard. But regardless of why you went down, you are a liability and can cause more people to go down. Whether you die or not in 1 or 2s is kind of splitting hairs if you ask me. This is the same reason why a lot of zergs fall apart; the commander downs and everyone tries to be hero and res him/her.... making a convenient bomb spot.The entire premise for this though is that players can only play bad enough to die in a bomb despite them using every defensive cooldown they can and never good enough to kill with a bomb by using every stunlock in their arsenal to overcome defensive cooldowns.

I would say you have to be playing pretty bad or lagging to die at the start. Not sure if you know about guardian, but they have at least 1 on demand stunbreak even after using stability (which affects 10 people now!) that can be fired twice off pretty quickly. They have passive endurance regen that gets past to their group, an ability that literally lets them teleport somewhere else and res/heal someone and instant condi clear. They have dodges (duh!) which self heals.

This is all available even if you are a potato that doesn't have weapons or tomes. I mean, hell, I have 2 friends that only played the thing a few times and are mostly PvErs and while they don't do that well, they still don't get blown up at the start.

Scrapper has their own backup stability and superspeed, as well as pretty much being immune to conditions while removing them off allies. Honestly, scrapper is so hard to kill that I consider it tougher than Guard if geared properly. I mean, I guess you can take emergency elixir if you really can't handle the heat, but I think that's unnecessary.

I mean, sure, you might just be outplayed or outnumbered and die eventually. But these things are pretty much out of anyone's control and there's no point discussing those.

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@Ryudnard.2587 said:I actually dislike the no down state week. As a healer and supports, I barely get any wexp out of the blob fight. I cannot even tag anything. It doesnt feel like I am contributing to the fight. The fight is over so fast. I cannot even rez ppl.

With that said, if u remove the invulnerqbiltiy from the down, if you go down, you will literally melt in 0.1 second in zerg vs zerg, whoever that was standing the front line and ate the initial bomb. There will be no possible ways to save them.

That is exactly why the invulnerability should be removed, or downstate removed all together. The idea that your buddies can pick you up after you've gone down because they have sheer numbers just isn't right no matter what way you look at it.

The fight is over in 10-20 seconds after it starts anyway. It's not the initial engagement that dictates the winner, it's the groups capability of picking up their downed buddies after the initial clash. Those who can rez their buddies (usually because they have more numbers) wins. If you can't rez your buddies because they've either died outright (no downstate), or invulnerability has been removed, it completely changes dynamics.

With this event I've seen now that guilds who typically can outlast groups from sustain which basically translates to constantly picking up their downed members, cannot handle this event. They're losing a half dozen or more in the first bomb and it's always scourges that are dying first. This is a large difference from what we generally see with down state in place.

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Removing rally isn't a bad idea actually. Meaning revival skills would be the only thing able to affect this except for pressing 4 - as long as they change this to pulse in a small AoE I see no issue as it would have plenty of counterplay by knocking people apart and you could help eachother get up by going down in a cluster.

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@Loosmaster.8263 said:

@Loosmaster.8263 said:Not until they tone down the amount of condi application or increase certain classes HP. I'm tired of getting one shotted by a condi bomb, lol.

Condi bombs haven't been a thing in over a year already. Check your combat log more often.

All servers don't play the same.

But scrappers and tempests are OP on all of them. Resistance is also easy to acquire in zergs.

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With Antitoxin runes and Purity of Purpose, all a condi build does is buff the enemy zerg. Only corruption is legit since it can tempoarily remove boons and trap people for a bomb but straight up condi damage in a zerg has been a terrible idea for most of the game's existence (except that while in HoT) and now is probably doing negative damage. If you spam burn on an enemy, what you're really doing is letting the scrappers constantly convert for Aegis. Not to mention Scrappers can do like 200 cleanses in a short fight.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purge_Gyrohttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fumigatehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Field

This is just scrapper too. 3 sources of pulsing condi clear, all with only a 15s cooldown. And there are much more smaller things you could do too.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Antitoxinhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose

With Antitoxin runes, you clear 2 conditions instead of 1, nearly doubling the effect (sometimes you won't have that many condis to clear, but then again that's not really an issue) and with Purity of Purpose all this gets turned into boons.

In short, I'd take a GS soulbeast over a condi whatever. If you are getting run down by a zerg who you can't seem to hurt, then tell people to stop spamming condis and get some scrappers running a build like the above.

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@"ArchonWing.9480" said:With Antitoxin runes and Purity of Purpose, all a condi build does is buff the enemy zerg. Only corruption is legit since it can tempoarily remove boons and trap people for a bomb but straight up condi damage in a zerg has been a terrible idea for most of the game's existence (except that while in HoT) and now is probably doing negative damage. If you spam burn on an enemy, what you're really doing is letting the scrappers constantly convert for Aegis. Not to mention Scrappers can do like 200 cleanses in a short fight.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purge_Gyrohttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fumigatehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Field

This is just scrapper too. 3 sources of pulsing condi clear, all with only a 15s cooldown. And there are much more smaller things you could do too.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Antitoxinhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose

With Antitoxin runes, you clear 2 conditions instead of 1, nearly doubling the effect (sometimes you won't have that many condis to clear, but then again that's not really an issue) and with Purity of Purpose all this gets turned into boons.

In short, I'd take a GS soulbeast over a condi whatever. If you are getting run down by a zerg who you can't seem to hurt, then tell people to stop spamming condis and get some scrappers running a build like the above.

Fun Idea:

I started to shot my own Mortar fields into reflects, just so i can get condis to convert.

The ice field gives 1s chill 5times.Each gets converted in 4+ seconds of alacrity.

Im realy at the point of WANTING condis on me....

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@"KryTiKaL.3125" said:Removal or not of the invuln won't make Downed State any more tolerable. Its an outdated mechanic thats been made problematic by the addition of "Dedicated healing" on classes now. Also yeah...can they just remove NPCs in general from WvW? Would be nice.

At the risk of a wall of text and so I don't have to keep typing this over and over again I'll just quote something I posted in another thread;

Personally I love No Downed state. It does make winning outnumbered fights much easier since people aren't carried by downed state and rally, which many, many people are.

Its why I've tried to advocate for discussion around completely reworking revives as a mechanic in GW2 in PvP modes like sPvP and WvW, especially considering how strong and abundant healing builds are now. They literally just buffed Ventari Rev and made it stronger. So not only do we have Firebrand, Scrapper and Tempest (which also got a healing buff in the last patch) but now we have Revenant with a healing build. Downed State is becoming redundant and problematic as a "support" mechanic for players. Do I want them to remove reviving as a mechanic in the game? No. Not at all. I want them to improve it. I would much rather them remove downed state and add/change some skills that heal or revive Downed players so that it brings them back to life from full dead but put those skills, like Battle Standard, onto 5 minute cooldowns (also only making them revive 1 player) so they aren't available too frequently but still allow for clutch revives during fights. The longer cooldown and tying it to a skill with a cooldown would just allow for much better and healthier counterplay.

Would it make these skills required for zerg play or group play? Yes but I don't see a problem with that, at competitive levels in GW1 GvG and otherwise Res Signet was essentially required in builds for most players with maybe the exception of 1 or 2 people on your team. It would also create more diversity among zergs if you, for example, make sure a set couple of Spellbreakers use Winds of Disenchantment but also make sure several have Battle Standard available. It would mean coordinating for revives during a zerg vs zerg fight would be an important and tactical aspect of winning, surviving or prolonging the engagement.

Oh and in regards to the Scrapper Function Gyro mechanic also being made "obsolete" should something like this happen....Anet can turn it into an actual active use skill on or adjacent to the Toolbelt skills and have it function purely as a support skill. Basically a drone defibrillator that the Scrapper sends out to revive an ally.

Another thing to address in regards to an argument against it that I see sometimes, also one that people say is the reason why Anet would never do this; Finishers.

Anet makes money off of Finishers as a cosmetic item from the Gem Store. This is true and if they removed downed state and stomping from the game then they would essentially be nullifying and "deleting" an entire subset of cash shop items. Some people have suggested that they simply change it so that if you land the "killing blow" on an enemy that your finisher is the one that applies over their body when they die. People are right in that it could cause lag and such in an already laggy mode for many.

I have a different solution. Turn it into an emote or an effect similar to Novelties. Players already "taunt" with /laugh or /sleep and other things that even enemy players can see and they already throw siege onto your corpse if they want to "bm" you, and the premise of Finishers is already kind of a taunt, don't you think? Dropping an SAB pixel explosion onto that enemy you just downed? The Llama finisher? Choya? Hidden Minstrel? All rather...taunting but "fun" and "funny", right? So if the concern for Anet is that Finishers would just become obsolete then why not shift their use? Turn them into "Taunts" or "Boasts", I'm sure there could be another name. It would also make it something usable in PvE and probably give more incentive to PvE players to actually buy these cosmetic items as they wouldn't need to play in PvP to see something they spent money or gems on.

THIS......Constructive and well thought out, I fully agree!

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