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Reorganize new Daredevil traits in a better order?


SehferViega.8725

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@SehferViega.8725 said:

I did not participate in the poll as I tend to like to test various iterations out first and I tend to agree with your conclusions. While I can see some merit in a re-ordering , I am not seeing the NERFS others allude to outside of the steal. They have in essence combined two skills into weakening and two skills into the new escapsists and from a logical point of view this just can't be a nerf.

Weakening strikes in particular is very telling even in WvW with all of those cleanses. It also the singular biggest add to Condition specs as the need to crit now removed.

I am still opne to the idea that a re-order might be better overall but feel the single largest issue is SWIPE.

With actual layout nerf are basically two:
  • you can't have both Brawler's Tenacity + Escapist's Fortitude that is really important in condi D/D build (maybe you don't play it, but someone does).
  • you have a loss of DPS in fractal playing Staff daredevil (and a little loss of DPS in raid, but here the loss is minor).New Weakening Strikes is really strong in competitive modes, but it is, honestly, the only buff.

The layout I have proposed is basically better and gives you more possibilities (as I have widely illustrated).

Last thing: for sure new swipe is an issue. For this reason a layout that give you stronger choices and more opportunities could be a good thing.

Actully I do play condi D/D. The big hit is swipe as there little in the way of means to engage. I never took brawlers tenacity my own d/d condition build as I relied on SOM as the heal over the Channled vigor heal and I favored neelde trap or a venom over impairing daggers. In other words there little in the skills that brawlers tenacity allowed a lower cooldown for that I preferred.

Escapists fortitude will now be my go to in that build and this will work with weakening strikes. Granted there little in the Masters tiers I like but this was the same as with the old layour where there nothing in the adept tier.

In your revised layout I still would not take brawlers. I would go Escapists and marauders resilience. Now that on paper would put me ahead but that said excluding SWIPE , the existing build is ahead of where it once was.

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@Exitus.3297 said:I'm going to make this as simple as possible:

Old Trait setup - All of the damage modifiers you could get before were Havoc Mastery (+7%), Staff Master (+10%), and Bounding Dodger (+10%).

New Trait Setup - You can have Weakening Strikes (+7%) as well as plenty of ways to spam Weakness (the passive itself, Lotus Poison, Staff 2), Havoc Mastery (up to +15%), Bounding Dodger (+10%), AND Brawler's Tenacity (20% reduced cooldown on Fist Flurry). They have all of the same things as the old trait setup as well as Brawler's Tenacity. This is a net buff, or at the very least not a nerf. What I don't understand is that you literally started off by saying that the new trait setup is a nerf, then when you get technical in your Fractal example, you pointed out it wasn't a nerf. That was literally my point.

I said exactly the opposite: in fractal new layout is a nerf in term of DPS (also in raid, but here the loss of DPS is minor).

It's also important to note that the 7% damage buff integration into Weakening Strikes is a buff because there is absolutely 0 reason the targets in PvE shouldn't have Weakness. Staff 2 spams it. Lotus Poison applies it. Now your dodges apply it. There is absolutely 0 reason your target shouldn't have Weakness on them, especially with the Staff. Another thing important to note is that the Weakening Strikes applies in an AoE, and after testing on the dummies relentlessly, the Weakness proc applies before the damage, meaning that if you decide to Dodge -> Vault, every enemy you hit with it will benefit from the 7% damage boost. Best part is now you can have that 7% buff on ranged weapons as well, such as P/P. This good because some PvE Staff Builds ran P/P as an offset for good measure, They now gain that 7% damage boost regardless of the range.

You still don't understand that the problem is NOT Weakening Strikes!Is Havoc Specialist. In fractal with Vigor and Large Mist Mobility Potion your endurance regenerates too fast making you lose DPS. Got it?

The reason I think they moved Havoc Mastery to the Master Tier from the Adept tier is for this reason: Daredevils would have Havoc Mastery (up to +15%), Staff Master (+240 Power), Weakening Strikes (+7%) and Bounding Dodger (+10%). My suspicion is that they thought this may be overkill in damage, because Daredevils to my understanding are doing pretty well in PvE environments in terms of damage. I personally have a preference for having each Trait Tier (Adept, Master, Grandmaster) be focused on one aspect because it brings people back to focusing on more fine-tuned builds instead of being one-trick ponies, but that is just a personal preference of mine.

Have you at least read my layout? HS is in the same tier that WS.. you could have [HS + SM] or [WS + SM] in order to maximise DPS. Not WS + HS + SM as you wrote.

I agree that D/D condition builds didn't much to gain from this patch. Tbh I only really ever saw it in PvP, and most of them took Withdraw anyways alongside the old Weakening Strikes, but they did at least have a choice. Now they are stuck going that direction.

They lose a good traits combination to gain basically nothing (the Major Master tier is completely useless).

I don't understand why you are getting extremely defensive and lashing out on me when I was merely trying to explain why the trait-setup isn't much a nerf in 99% of cases, and make players feel better about the whole situation. The only really devastating nerf at the moment is Swipe, and that is the change Thief players really need to focus on. It is the only real way to get ANet's attention on it. After that is dealt with, maybe then it will be better to have a conversation about the trait layout.

Swipe range is another discussion, here is traits reorder. It seems I'm the only one here that created a poll and lose his time to argue his point of view.If for you swipe range is so important, create a poll, you will have my YES to fix the range at least at 900.If the problem is that a discussion steals votes to another and you vote NO for this reason, well, this way we'll never gain nothing.

I asked you: in what the layout I have proposed is worse then the AN's actual layout? You talk about old traits and new traits: it is a nerf or not respect the old layout with the old traits.Which one is better? That is the poll question!

I apologize if I was rude, in this post or in previous.

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@babazhook.6805 said:

Actully I do play condi D/D. The big hit is swipe as there little in the way of means to engage. I never took brawlers tenacity my own d/d condition build as I relied on SOM as the heal over the Channled vigor heal and I favored neelde trap or a venom over impairing daggers. In other words there little in the skills that brawlers tenacity allowed a lower cooldown for that I preferred.

Escapists fortitude will now be my go to in that build and this will work with weakening strikes. Granted there little in the Masters tiers I like but this was the same as with the old layour where there nothing in the adept tier.

In your revised layout I still would not take brawlers. I would go Escapists and marauders resilience. Now that on paper would put me ahead but that said excluding SWIPE , the existing build is ahead of where it once was.

If you play D/D condi, you can see that in actual layout Major Master tier is completely useless.In the layout I have proposed you could play with: [bT + EF + MR] or [WS + EF + MR].You lose nothing, you gain only.

I sometimes play D/D condi builds.. I used to play it with BT + EA+Dash dodge, Channeled Vigor + Bandit's Defense + Signet of Agility + Shadowstep + Dagger Storm (I posted my condi builds here on forum just yesterday in an other discussion).I tried it after last patch and I have to say that Swipe change is not a problem but a buff for my build (cause unblockable). I really miss Brawler's Tenacity (cause now I play with EF + WS + HS + Dash dodge).Two hours of roaming against Gandara and Baruch Bay and I died only two times (and never in a 1vs1) achieving lots of kills. So it still works.But with my layout it'll work better B)

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@HyperLooser.2698 said:pve will suffer if this gets changed again, so one side looses no matter what.

If you could run with [Havoc Specialist + Staff Master + Bounding Dodger] you will have a better DPS. How PvE will suffer?

Have you read at least the layout I have proposed?

@SehferViega.8725 said:

  • Minor Adept: Physical Supremacy
  • Major Adept:
    1. Havoc Specialist
    2. Brawler's Tenacity
    3. Weakening Strikes
  • Minor Master: Escapist's Fortitude
  • Major Master:
    1. Staff Master
    2. Marauder's Resilience
    3. Impacting Disruption
  • Minor Grandmaster: Endurance Thief
  • Major Grandmaster:
    1. Bounding Dodger
    2. Unhindered Combatant (Dash dodge)
    3. Lotus Training
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@"SehferViega.8725" said:"Daredevil traits have been reworked to focus on three categories: choosing your defense in the Adept tier; choosing your damage in the Master tier; and choosing your dodge maneuver in the Grandmaster tier."This is no sense, produce a nerf of Daredevil and limits player choices: for example in pve you need to maximize DPS (and now we usually play Havoc mastery, Staff Master and Bounding Dodger) while in WvW you need defensive traits (like Brawler's Tenacity).Be obliged to play and choose a defensive trait in PvE where we suffer a lack of damage and we don't need survability have no sense.That's why I propose to reorganize new Daredevil traits in order to have a defensive, offensive and "utility" choice for each tier (Major Adept, Major Master, Major Grandmaster) as indicated below (and as it has always been):

  • Minor Adept: Physical Supremacy
  • Major Adept:
    1. Havoc Specialist
    2. Brawler's Tenacity
    3. Weakening Strikes
  • Minor Master: Escapist's Fortitude
  • Major Master:
    1. Staff Master
    2. Marauder's Resilience
    3. Impacting Disruption
  • Minor Grandmaster: Endurance Thief
  • Major Grandmaster:
    1. Bounding Dodger
    2. Unhindered Combatant (Dash dodge)
    3. Lotus Training

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048I hope you and your balance team see this!

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