Impact of Daredevil Changes

[Swagg.9236]

And seriously, this player base needs to cool off with its "but I've played thief for X hours and I'm rank Y" identity politics. Thief has always been incredibly broken due to having zero weapon skill CDs despite them granting easy access to teleports (both ground-targeted and those which go through terrain), high-damage attacks which are insulated with protracted damage negation periods, and instant invisibility which has never had any consistent counters in the game (inflicting Revealed had never been present in GW2 for years, and even with options for it within the current game iteration, nobody deliberately takes them for tray specific feature because Revealed application as a standalone mechanic is a waste of a skill/trait slot). Just because thieves lack the willpower to stand back and look at the game holistically doesn't mean that their class is "underpowered." In fact, the reality of other class builds stomping out thief PvP presence is evidence that the game is effectively beyond saving.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@"Swagg.9236" said:And seriously, this player base needs to cool off with its "but I've played thief for X hours and I'm rank Y" identity politics. Thief has always been incredibly broken due to having zero weapon skill CDs despite them granting easy access to teleports (both ground-targeted and those which go through terrain), high-damage attacks which are insulated with protracted damage negation periods, and instant invisibility which has never had any consistent counters in the game (inflicting Revealed had never been present in GW2 for years, and even with options for it within the current game iteration, nobody deliberately takes them for tray specific feature because Revealed application as a standalone mechanic is a waste of a skill/trait slot). Just because thieves lack the willpower to stand back and look at the game holistically doesn't mean that their class is "underpowered." In fact, the reality of other class builds stomping out thief PvP presence is evidence that the game is effectively beyond saving.

Haven't read a post wich such biased ignorance in a while, u would get along with incisor well.To ur ridiculous pointsThief has no weapon cooldowns_trade off are ini is global resource.once used no weapon skills are useable which translates to being worse than having cd's especially since some skills like IA take 1/3 of ur ini per use. Also all utilities have cd's.

Lots of easy access to teleportsWhat class doesnt these days? Kidding aside all tele use ini or have appropriate CD lengths. Tele on thief is there to balance its low sustain unlike some classes with access who have sustain. Most tele dont do dps.

High damage skills?Just this shows u do not play thief and are just but hurt as u must have got lardely outplayed by a thief and are mis placing the anger at the thief and not towards your aperant low skill level.U can literally build full zerks and pop assassins sig and pound on most classes using most of thiefs standard skills and due to the passive and active sustain classes have these days they will block,go invulnerable and or out heal ypure damage all while downing u in 3 hits,any three hits.. As a rogue character that's supposed to be glassy,mobile and deadly the balance is way off in this games version of thief. Only reliable dps or burst thief has is cheap one trick pony builds like perma stealth MBS etc which is annoying to die to as much as it is annoying to rely on. This promotes unhealthy playstyle and alot of salt from the opposition

Tele thru walls is a issue with other professions as well as thief so. Also these skills suffer from no line of sight issues at inapropriate times just as often.

Mentioning thieves ability to get to different elevations is also a silly point as its ability to do do isn't any worse than a rev,scourge or mesmer to name a few attacking elevated surfaces from range with aoe'S and clones or attacking through wall,some classes JI on guard can set up it's big burst tele to an opponent at an elevated surfaces yet u pick on thiefs ability to access them for mobility or disengagrment purposes? Ok.Anyway I think if most people legitimately spent time on thief they'd see how underperforming they actually are but that in itself is a ridiculous thought.

[Jack Redline.5379]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:unrivaled mobility.

lol......LOL.......

LOL

if (found Lol)print Lol

[Jack Redline.5379]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:lol, no facts presented, not even coherent arguments. just qq and that's about it.

you yourself said you dont play thief. Your arguements are equaly invalid as theirs non existent. Take a thief and try it out- Then you can return and give us shower of how our facts are just qq.

[Jack Redline.5379]

@syszery.1592 said:I can't stop laughing tbh. All these try hard daredevils who trash talked deadeye some month ago now got a taste of their own medicine <3

/Edit: You did it boys: Finally we can all play S/D core...

but DE didnt get nerfed... how it was anything that didnt happen to DE our fault. Not to mention everyone was salting DE since it was lvl 669 cancer

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

Good overall explanation

[Swagg.9236]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:And seriously, this player base needs to cool off with its "but I've played thief for X hours and I'm rank Y" identity politics. Thief has always been incredibly broken due to having zero weapon skill CDs despite them granting easy access to teleports (both ground-targeted and those which go through terrain), high-damage attacks which are insulated with protracted damage negation periods, and instant invisibility which has never had any consistent counters in the game (inflicting Revealed had never been present in GW2 for years, and even with options for it within the current game iteration, nobody deliberately takes them for tray specific feature because Revealed application as a standalone mechanic is a waste of a skill/trait slot). Just because thieves lack the willpower to stand back and look at the game holistically doesn't mean that their class is "underpowered." In fact, the reality of other class builds stomping out thief PvP presence is evidence that the game is effectively beyond saving.

Haven't read a post wich such biased ignorance in a while, u would get along with incisor well.To ur ridiculous pointsThief has no weapon cooldowns_trade off are ini is global resource.once used no weapon skills are useable which translates to being worse than having cd's especially since some skills like IA take 1/3 of ur ini per use. Also all utilities have cd's.

Lots of easy access to teleportsWhat class doesnt these days? Kidding aside all tele use ini or have appropriate CD lengths. Tele on thief is there to balance its low sustain unlike some classes with access who have sustain. Most tele dont do dps.

High damage skills?Just this shows u do not play thief and are just but hurt as u must have got lardely outplayed by a thief and are mis placing the anger at the thief and not towards your aperant low skill level.U can literally build full zerks and pop assassins sig and pound on most classes using most of thiefs standard skills and due to the passive and active sustain classes have these days they will block,go invulnerable and or out heal ypure damage all while downing u in 3 hits,any three hits.. As a rogue character that's supposed to be glassy,mobile and deadly the balance is way off in this games version of thief. Only reliable dps or burst thief has is cheap one trick pony builds like perma stealth MBS etc which is annoying to die to as much as it is annoying to rely on. This promotes unhealthy playstyle and alot of salt from the opposition

Tele thru walls is a issue with other professions as well as thief so. Also these skills suffer from no line of sight issues at inapropriate times just as often.

Mentioning thieves ability to get to different elevations is also a silly point as its ability to do do isn't any worse than a rev,scourge or mesmer to name a few attacking elevated surfaces from range with aoe'S and clones or attacking through wall,some classes JI on guard can set up it's big burst tele to an opponent at an elevated surfaces yet u pick on thiefs ability to access them for mobility or disengagrment purposes? Ok.Anyway I think if most people legitimately spent time on thief they'd see how underperforming they actually are but that in itself is a ridiculous thought.

Your argument basically revolves around other classes either having access to staple Thief memes or getting their own overpowered gimmicks which negate Thief's ability to just poke with initiative teleports and initiative evades which used to utterly destroy most every class in the game leading up to 2015. Someone made a good break-down of why Rampage is annoying to play against and tends to warp combat around it while it is active on the field:

@"Curennos.9307" said:

Rampage is veeeery far from a 'long cd', relatively speaking. It isn't that it's impossible to survive rampage - it's the amount of resources a player has to dedicate to mitigate a single elite skill and the frequency at which the skill can be used. It doesn't matter how many skills the elite has that are must-dodge (minimum two of them - #4 and #5. Arguably 3 I guess. Anyway).

It isn't even how telegraphed some of the skills are - it's that you MUST mitigate them and MUST dedicate not-insignificant resources to doing so. 'lol just dodge' means jack - the POINT is to deprive your opponent of defensive cooldowns to the point where they can be killed. Rampage does that too well too often - it's investment/reward is way out of whack. Other classes have wet dreams about having an elite skill that forces the opponent to dedicate that many defensive resources to dealing with it.

Thief is "Rampage: the class." It deals so much damage and undermines positioning or timing on such frequency, that it is impossible to deal with them unless the class which you brought to bear against them also features gimmicks which negate incoming damage or inflict absurd damage on demand and very frequently. The way to fight a Thief is to outright simply have Thief gimmicks. That's how much of an issue Thief has always been: it has always warped combat around its presence.

You don't seem like a person who played Guild Wars 2 from 2012-2014, and if you were, then you either didn't play PvP or you were just bad at it. Thief was a nearly-unchallenged, teleport machine for years because nothing evenly competed with a player which came through walls and dealt 2-4k damage per attack string while also inflicting AoE blind during stealth (in a meta with slower attacks) and spamming evade periods in quantities which no other class could replicate (this was also before PvP amulets got all of those free stats too, so if you wanted to do damage in PvP, you really could not have any Vitality in your build because Marauder didn't exist). I've played core staff Elementalist in PvP since early 2013. I was always at a consistent disadvantage against Thieves back then to the point where it was much easier to just avoid them entirely if possible. I can hold my own against Thieves in 2019, and it wasn't necessarily because I got better--my spec just got more broken and unfair. Things like double Arcane Wave and Lighting Rod (especially if combined with Tornado) are the key to breaking a Thief, and those are not fair abilities: they are passive procs and instant casts which inflict ridiculous damage, weakness and other brutal conditions like blind or 2s of immobilize. On top of this, Arcane Shield has literally half the recharge time that it did back when I started playing PvP.

This doesn't mean that Thief is "underperforming," it means that Thief has always been broken and low-effort, but everything else in the game has just been dragged down to the same awful dynamics which made Thief annoying to play against in 2013. You are the kind of person I talk about when I mention how this game's playerbase lacks the willpower to look at the holistic reasons for why GW2 has an awful PvP system. Guild Wars 2 is a mess of bloat and samey, overpowered gimmicks. Thief was the first; now everyone else has just caught up.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:And seriously, this player base needs to cool off with its "but I've played thief for X hours and I'm rank Y" identity politics. Thief has always been incredibly broken due to having zero weapon skill CDs despite them granting easy access to teleports (both ground-targeted and those which go through terrain), high-damage attacks which are insulated with protracted damage negation periods, and instant invisibility which has never had any consistent counters in the game (inflicting Revealed had never been present in GW2 for years, and even with options for it within the current game iteration, nobody deliberately takes them for tray specific feature because Revealed application as a standalone mechanic is a waste of a skill/trait slot). Just because thieves lack the willpower to stand back and look at the game holistically doesn't mean that their class is "underpowered." In fact, the reality of other class builds stomping out thief PvP presence is evidence that the game is effectively beyond saving.

Haven't read a post wich such biased ignorance in a while, u would get along with incisor well.To ur ridiculous pointsThief has no weapon cooldowns_trade off are ini is global resource.once used no weapon skills are useable which translates to being worse than having cd's especially since some skills like IA take 1/3 of ur ini per use. Also all utilities have cd's.

Lots of easy access to teleportsWhat class doesnt these days? Kidding aside all tele use ini or have appropriate CD lengths. Tele on thief is there to balance its low sustain unlike some classes with access who have sustain. Most tele dont do dps.

High damage skills?Just this shows u do not play thief and are just but hurt as u must have got lardely outplayed by a thief and are mis placing the anger at the thief and not towards your aperant low skill level.U can literally build full zerks and pop assassins sig and pound on most classes using most of thiefs standard skills and due to the passive and active sustain classes have these days they will block,go invulnerable and or out heal ypure damage all while downing u in 3 hits,any three hits.. As a rogue character that's supposed to be glassy,mobile and deadly the balance is way off in this games version of thief. Only reliable dps or burst thief has is cheap one trick pony builds like perma stealth MBS etc which is annoying to die to as much as it is annoying to rely on. This promotes unhealthy playstyle and alot of salt from the opposition

Tele thru walls is a issue with other professions as well as thief so. Also these skills suffer from no line of sight issues at inapropriate times just as often.

Mentioning thieves ability to get to different elevations is also a silly point as its ability to do do isn't any worse than a rev,scourge or mesmer to name a few attacking elevated surfaces from range with aoe'S and clones or attacking through wall,some classes JI on guard can set up it's big burst tele to an opponent at an elevated surfaces yet u pick on thiefs ability to access them for mobility or disengagrment purposes? Ok.Anyway I think if most people legitimately spent time on thief they'd see how underperforming they actually are but that in itself is a ridiculous thought.

Your argument basically revolves around other classes either having access to staple Thief memes or getting their own overpowered gimmicks which negate Thief's ability to just poke with initiative teleports and initiative evades which used to utterly destroy most every class in the game leading up to 2015. Someone made a good break-down of why Rampage is annoying to play against and tends to warp combat around it while it is active on the field:

@"Curennos.9307" said:

Rampage is veeeery far from a 'long cd', relatively speaking. It isn't that it's impossible to survive rampage - it's the amount of resources a player has to dedicate to mitigate a single elite skill and the frequency at which the skill can be used. It doesn't matter how many skills the elite has that are must-dodge (minimum two of them - #4 and #5. Arguably 3 I guess. Anyway).

It isn't even how telegraphed some of the skills are - it's that you MUST mitigate them and MUST dedicate not-insignificant resources to doing so. 'lol just dodge' means jack - the POINT is to deprive your opponent of defensive cooldowns to the point where they can be killed. Rampage does that too well too often - it's investment/reward is way out of whack. Other classes have wet dreams about having an elite skill that forces the opponent to dedicate that many defensive resources to dealing with it.

Thief is "Rampage: the class." It deals so much damage and undermines positioning or timing on such frequency, that it is impossible to deal with them unless the class which you brought to bear against them also features gimmicks which negate incoming damage or inflict absurd damage on demand and very frequently. The way to fight a Thief is to outright simply have Thief gimmicks. That's how much of an issue Thief has always been: it has always warped combat around its presence.

You don't seem like a person who played Guild Wars 2 from 2012-2014, and if you were, then you either didn't play PvP or you were just bad at it. Thief was a nearly-unchallenged, teleport machine for years because nothing evenly competed with a player which came through walls and dealt 2-4k damage per attack string while also inflicting AoE blind during stealth (in a meta with slower attacks) and spamming evade periods in quantities which no other class could replicate (this was also before PvP amulets got all of those free stats too, so if you wanted to do damage in PvP, you really could not have any Vitality in your build because Marauder didn't exist). I've played core staff Elementalist in PvP since early 2013. I was always at a consistent disadvantage against Thieves back then to the point where it was much easier to just avoid them entirely if possible. I can hold my own against Thieves in 2019, and it wasn't necessarily because I got better--my spec just got more broken and unfair. Things like double Arcane Wave and Lighting Rod (especially if combined with Tornado) are the key to breaking a Thief, and those are not fair abilities: they are passive procs and instant casts which inflict ridiculous damage, weakness and other brutal conditions like blind or 2s of immobilize. On top of this, Arcane Shield has literally half the recharge time that it did back when I started playing PvP.

This doesn't mean that Thief is "underperforming," it means that Thief has always been broken and low-effort, but everything else in the game has just been dragged down to the same awful dynamics which made Thief annoying to play against in 2013. You are the kind of person I talk about when I mention how this game's playerbase lacks the willpower to look at the holistic reasons for why GW2 has an awful PvP system. Guild Wars 2 is a mess of bloat and samey, overpowered gimmicks. Thief was the first; now everyone else has just caught up.

Lmao I quit reading as soon as my eyes picked out thieves do so much same only way to deal with them....

U need to come to a self realization u are not a good player yet.with practice u will be tho so dont worry.Thief isn't a +1 class because it does alot of dps and is hard to deal with lmao,its literally the worst class at 1v1. Unless its +1 U with a aly u should be stomping most thieves unless u got severely out played. If they are in fact +1 u do u think u would have a better time if a soulbeast,ranger,holo or warrior were +1 u instead of thief?Lol somtimes the forums never cease to surprise. U are right I've only been around since late 2015 but I've heard players like sind who I have alot of respect for skill wise mention thief was never the best or one of the better 1v1 specs,ever. So forgive me if I cant see it in the yr and half I didnt play it :)

[Swagg.9236]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:And seriously, this player base needs to cool off with its "but I've played thief for X hours and I'm rank Y" identity politics. Thief has always been incredibly broken due to having zero weapon skill CDs despite them granting easy access to teleports (both ground-targeted and those which go through terrain), high-damage attacks which are insulated with protracted damage negation periods, and instant invisibility which has never had any consistent counters in the game (inflicting Revealed had never been present in GW2 for years, and even with options for it within the current game iteration, nobody deliberately takes them for tray specific feature because Revealed application as a standalone mechanic is a waste of a skill/trait slot). Just because thieves lack the willpower to stand back and look at the game holistically doesn't mean that their class is "underpowered." In fact, the reality of other class builds stomping out thief PvP presence is evidence that the game is effectively beyond saving.

Haven't read a post wich such biased ignorance in a while, u would get along with incisor well.To ur ridiculous pointsThief has no weapon cooldowns_trade off are ini is global resource.once used no weapon skills are useable which translates to being worse than having cd's especially since some skills like IA take 1/3 of ur ini per use. Also all utilities have cd's.

Lots of easy access to teleportsWhat class doesnt these days? Kidding aside all tele use ini or have appropriate CD lengths. Tele on thief is there to balance its low sustain unlike some classes with access who have sustain. Most tele dont do dps.

High damage skills?Just this shows u do not play thief and are just but hurt as u must have got lardely outplayed by a thief and are mis placing the anger at the thief and not towards your aperant low skill level.U can literally build full zerks and pop assassins sig and pound on most classes using most of thiefs standard skills and due to the passive and active sustain classes have these days they will block,go invulnerable and or out heal ypure damage all while downing u in 3 hits,any three hits.. As a rogue character that's supposed to be glassy,mobile and deadly the balance is way off in this games version of thief. Only reliable dps or burst thief has is cheap one trick pony builds like perma stealth MBS etc which is annoying to die to as much as it is annoying to rely on. This promotes unhealthy playstyle and alot of salt from the opposition

Tele thru walls is a issue with other professions as well as thief so. Also these skills suffer from no line of sight issues at inapropriate times just as often.

Mentioning thieves ability to get to different elevations is also a silly point as its ability to do do isn't any worse than a rev,scourge or mesmer to name a few attacking elevated surfaces from range with aoe'S and clones or attacking through wall,some classes JI on guard can set up it's big burst tele to an opponent at an elevated surfaces yet u pick on thiefs ability to access them for mobility or disengagrment purposes? Ok.Anyway I think if most people legitimately spent time on thief they'd see how underperforming they actually are but that in itself is a ridiculous thought.

Your argument basically revolves around other classes either having access to staple Thief memes or getting their own overpowered gimmicks which negate Thief's ability to just poke with initiative teleports and initiative evades which used to utterly destroy most every class in the game leading up to 2015. Someone made a good break-down of why Rampage is annoying to play against and tends to warp combat around it while it is active on the field:

@"Curennos.9307" said:

Rampage is veeeery far from a 'long cd', relatively speaking. It isn't that it's impossible to survive rampage - it's the amount of resources a player has to dedicate to mitigate a single elite skill and the frequency at which the skill can be used. It doesn't matter how many skills the elite has that are must-dodge (minimum two of them - #4 and #5. Arguably 3 I guess. Anyway).

It isn't even how telegraphed some of the skills are - it's that you MUST mitigate them and MUST dedicate not-insignificant resources to doing so. 'lol just dodge' means jack - the POINT is to deprive your opponent of defensive cooldowns to the point where they can be killed. Rampage does that too well too often - it's investment/reward is way out of whack. Other classes have wet dreams about having an elite skill that forces the opponent to dedicate that many defensive resources to dealing with it.

Thief is "Rampage: the class." It deals so much damage and undermines positioning or timing on such frequency, that it is impossible to deal with them unless the class which you brought to bear against them also features gimmicks which negate incoming damage or inflict absurd damage on demand and very frequently. The way to fight a Thief is to outright simply have Thief gimmicks. That's how much of an issue Thief has always been: it has always warped combat around its presence.

You don't seem like a person who played Guild Wars 2 from 2012-2014, and if you were, then you either didn't play PvP or you were just bad at it. Thief was a nearly-unchallenged, teleport machine for years because nothing evenly competed with a player which came through walls and dealt 2-4k damage per attack string while also inflicting AoE blind during stealth (in a meta with slower attacks) and spamming evade periods in quantities which no other class could replicate (this was also before PvP amulets got all of those free stats too, so if you wanted to do damage in PvP, you really could not have any Vitality in your build because Marauder didn't exist). I've played core staff Elementalist in PvP since early 2013. I was always at a consistent disadvantage against Thieves back then to the point where it was much easier to just avoid them entirely if possible. I can hold my own against Thieves in 2019, and it wasn't necessarily because I got better--my spec just got more broken and unfair. Things like double Arcane Wave and Lighting Rod (especially if combined with Tornado) are the key to breaking a Thief, and those are not fair abilities: they are passive procs and instant casts which inflict ridiculous damage, weakness and other brutal conditions like blind or 2s of immobilize. On top of this, Arcane Shield has literally half the recharge time that it did back when I started playing PvP.

This doesn't mean that Thief is "underperforming," it means that Thief has always been broken and low-effort, but everything else in the game has just been dragged down to the same awful dynamics which made Thief annoying to play against in 2013. You are the kind of person I talk about when I mention how this game's playerbase lacks the willpower to look at the holistic reasons for why GW2 has an awful PvP system. Guild Wars 2 is a mess of bloat and samey, overpowered gimmicks. Thief was the first; now everyone else has just caught up.

Lmao I quit reading as soon as my eyes picked out thieves do so much same only way to deal with them....

U need to come to a self realization u are not a good player yet.with practice u will be tho so dont worry.Thief isn't a +1 class because it does alot of dps and is hard to deal with lmao,its literally the worst class at 1v1. Unless its +1 U with a aly u should be stomping most thieves unless u got severely out played. If they are in fact +1 u do u think u would have a better time if a soulbeast,ranger,holo or warrior were +1 u instead of thief?Lol somtimes the forums never cease to surprise.

Guess my final paragraph rings true.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:And seriously, this player base needs to cool off with its "but I've played thief for X hours and I'm rank Y" identity politics. Thief has always been incredibly broken due to having zero weapon skill CDs despite them granting easy access to teleports (both ground-targeted and those which go through terrain), high-damage attacks which are insulated with protracted damage negation periods, and instant invisibility which has never had any consistent counters in the game (inflicting Revealed had never been present in GW2 for years, and even with options for it within the current game iteration, nobody deliberately takes them for tray specific feature because Revealed application as a standalone mechanic is a waste of a skill/trait slot). Just because thieves lack the willpower to stand back and look at the game holistically doesn't mean that their class is "underpowered." In fact, the reality of other class builds stomping out thief PvP presence is evidence that the game is effectively beyond saving.

Haven't read a post wich such biased ignorance in a while, u would get along with incisor well.To ur ridiculous pointsThief has no weapon cooldowns_trade off are ini is global resource.once used no weapon skills are useable which translates to being worse than having cd's especially since some skills like IA take 1/3 of ur ini per use. Also all utilities have cd's.

Lots of easy access to teleportsWhat class doesnt these days? Kidding aside all tele use ini or have appropriate CD lengths. Tele on thief is there to balance its low sustain unlike some classes with access who have sustain. Most tele dont do dps.

High damage skills?Just this shows u do not play thief and are just but hurt as u must have got lardely outplayed by a thief and are mis placing the anger at the thief and not towards your aperant low skill level.U can literally build full zerks and pop assassins sig and pound on most classes using most of thiefs standard skills and due to the passive and active sustain classes have these days they will block,go invulnerable and or out heal ypure damage all while downing u in 3 hits,any three hits.. As a rogue character that's supposed to be glassy,mobile and deadly the balance is way off in this games version of thief. Only reliable dps or burst thief has is cheap one trick pony builds like perma stealth MBS etc which is annoying to die to as much as it is annoying to rely on. This promotes unhealthy playstyle and alot of salt from the opposition

Tele thru walls is a issue with other professions as well as thief so. Also these skills suffer from no line of sight issues at inapropriate times just as often.

Mentioning thieves ability to get to different elevations is also a silly point as its ability to do do isn't any worse than a rev,scourge or mesmer to name a few attacking elevated surfaces from range with aoe'S and clones or attacking through wall,some classes JI on guard can set up it's big burst tele to an opponent at an elevated surfaces yet u pick on thiefs ability to access them for mobility or disengagrment purposes? Ok.Anyway I think if most people legitimately spent time on thief they'd see how underperforming they actually are but that in itself is a ridiculous thought.

Your argument basically revolves around other classes either having access to staple Thief memes or getting their own overpowered gimmicks which negate Thief's ability to just poke with initiative teleports and initiative evades which used to utterly destroy most every class in the game leading up to 2015. Someone made a good break-down of why Rampage is annoying to play against and tends to warp combat around it while it is active on the field:

@"Curennos.9307" said:

Rampage is veeeery far from a 'long cd', relatively speaking. It isn't that it's impossible to survive rampage - it's the amount of resources a player has to dedicate to mitigate a single elite skill and the frequency at which the skill can be used. It doesn't matter how many skills the elite has that are must-dodge (minimum two of them - #4 and #5. Arguably 3 I guess. Anyway).

It isn't even how telegraphed some of the skills are - it's that you MUST mitigate them and MUST dedicate not-insignificant resources to doing so. 'lol just dodge' means jack - the POINT is to deprive your opponent of defensive cooldowns to the point where they can be killed. Rampage does that too well too often - it's investment/reward is way out of whack. Other classes have wet dreams about having an elite skill that forces the opponent to dedicate that many defensive resources to dealing with it.

Thief is "Rampage: the class." It deals so much damage and undermines positioning or timing on such frequency, that it is impossible to deal with them unless the class which you brought to bear against them also features gimmicks which negate incoming damage or inflict absurd damage on demand and very frequently. The way to fight a Thief is to outright simply have Thief gimmicks. That's how much of an issue Thief has always been: it has always warped combat around its presence.

You don't seem like a person who played Guild Wars 2 from 2012-2014, and if you were, then you either didn't play PvP or you were just bad at it. Thief was a nearly-unchallenged, teleport machine for years because nothing evenly competed with a player which came through walls and dealt 2-4k damage per attack string while also inflicting AoE blind during stealth (in a meta with slower attacks) and spamming evade periods in quantities which no other class could replicate (this was also before PvP amulets got all of those free stats too, so if you wanted to do damage in PvP, you really could not have any Vitality in your build because Marauder didn't exist). I've played core staff Elementalist in PvP since early 2013. I was always at a consistent disadvantage against Thieves back then to the point where it was much easier to just avoid them entirely if possible. I can hold my own against Thieves in 2019, and it wasn't necessarily because I got better--my spec just got more broken and unfair. Things like double Arcane Wave and Lighting Rod (especially if combined with Tornado) are the key to breaking a Thief, and those are not fair abilities: they are passive procs and instant casts which inflict ridiculous damage, weakness and other brutal conditions like blind or 2s of immobilize. On top of this, Arcane Shield has literally half the recharge time that it did back when I started playing PvP.

This doesn't mean that Thief is "underperforming," it means that Thief has always been broken and low-effort, but everything else in the game has just been dragged down to the same awful dynamics which made Thief annoying to play against in 2013. You are the kind of person I talk about when I mention how this game's playerbase lacks the willpower to look at the holistic reasons for why GW2 has an awful PvP system. Guild Wars 2 is a mess of bloat and samey, overpowered gimmicks. Thief was the first; now everyone else has just caught up.

Lmao I quit reading as soon as my eyes picked out thieves do so much same only way to deal with them....

U need to come to a self realization u are not a good player yet.with practice u will be tho so dont worry.Thief isn't a +1 class because it does alot of dps and is hard to deal with lmao,its literally the worst class at 1v1. Unless its +1 U with a aly u should be stomping most thieves unless u got severely out played. If they are in fact +1 u do u think u would have a better time if a soulbeast,ranger,holo or warrior were +1 u instead of thief?Lol somtimes the forums never cease to surprise.

Guess my final paragraph rings true.

Funny though I played thief exclusively since then till very recently,can u honestly say the same? Or are u someone that seldom does or has played theif? Also took me very little time after playing rev,soulbeast,reaper and now learning warrior to notice how low thiefs dps is now especially with its current sustain being where it's at. Most classes are on another level these days when it comes to actual fighting(not running away) and doesn't take much to notice the difference.

[Moirg.7560]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I used to savor teef tears, now all they do is kitten me off. look, d/p still has a spamable 900 range tele. shortbow is still unrivaled mobility. chances are if youre using steal as an engage youre playing teef wrong, and if youre already engaged you should be within 600 range anyway. I don't even play the class and I know that. talk about privilege lol...

No. The only thing that made any sense in what you said is you don't play thief. It shows. Steal is usually used as a gap closer ot finisher in combination with a precast such as HS and/or backstab and cutting the range in half completely gutted our burst that was already just on par with warrior auto attacks.

[praqtos.9035]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:And seriously, this player base needs to cool off with its "but I've played thief for X hours and I'm rank Y" identity politics. Thief has always been incredibly broken due to having zero weapon skill CDs despite them granting easy access to teleports (both ground-targeted and those which go through terrain), high-damage attacks which are insulated with protracted damage negation periods, and instant invisibility which has never had any consistent counters in the game (inflicting Revealed had never been present in GW2 for years, and even with options for it within the current game iteration, nobody deliberately takes them for tray specific feature because Revealed application as a standalone mechanic is a waste of a skill/trait slot). Just because thieves lack the willpower to stand back and look at the game holistically doesn't mean that their class is "underpowered." In fact, the reality of other class builds stomping out thief PvP presence is evidence that the game is effectively beyond saving.

Haven't read a post wich such biased ignorance in a while, u would get along with incisor well.To ur ridiculous pointsYou just perfectly described yourself now, good jobSeriously, theives complaint after being meta since game release and cockblock almost every single glass build from being remotely viable ?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:And seriously, this player base needs to cool off with its "but I've played thief for X hours and I'm rank Y" identity politics. Thief has always been incredibly broken due to having zero weapon skill CDs despite them granting easy access to teleports (both ground-targeted and those which go through terrain), high-damage attacks which are insulated with protracted damage negation periods, and instant invisibility which has never had any consistent counters in the game (inflicting Revealed had never been present in GW2 for years, and even with options for it within the current game iteration, nobody deliberately takes them for tray specific feature because Revealed application as a standalone mechanic is a waste of a skill/trait slot). Just because thieves lack the willpower to stand back and look at the game holistically doesn't mean that their class is "underpowered." In fact, the reality of other class builds stomping out thief PvP presence is evidence that the game is effectively beyond saving.

Haven't read a post wich such biased ignorance in a while, u would get along with incisor well.To ur ridiculous pointsYou just perfectly described yourself now, good jobSeriously, theives complaint after being meta since game release and kitten almost every single glass build from being remotely viable ?

Ultimately comes down to they remained viable by running to nodes and winning fights by +1'ing opponents that already were getting beat on by an aly, yea OP tough class. The whole theif whining is Getting to the point it's just calling out crap players lol. If ur having problems with thief in the last yr ur either a mesmer or need to l2p. Get real lmao

[freedomtolove.5476]

Arenanet talk about thief needing tradeoffs?

While we used to be able to avoid damage by evasion now we're punished for it: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unhindered_Combatant

While we used to be able to avoid zergs through stealth now we're punished for it: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/MarkedDetected! is an effect applied to players that enter stealth while they are marked. If they are stealthed for more than 2 seconds while detected, they will become revealed. Exiting stealth before this effect expires will remove this effect.

While we used to have better mobility than most classes now there's mounts: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WarclawIt also has 3 dodges and is immune to CC along with the fact it has 10,972 health which is almost as much as a full berserker's armor geared thief.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:And seriously, this player base needs to cool off with its "but I've played thief for X hours and I'm rank Y" identity politics. Thief has always been incredibly broken due to having zero weapon skill CDs despite them granting easy access to teleports (both ground-targeted and those which go through terrain), high-damage attacks which are insulated with protracted damage negation periods, and instant invisibility which has never had any consistent counters in the game (inflicting Revealed had never been present in GW2 for years, and even with options for it within the current game iteration, nobody deliberately takes them for tray specific feature because Revealed application as a standalone mechanic is a waste of a skill/trait slot). Just because thieves lack the willpower to stand back and look at the game holistically doesn't mean that their class is "underpowered." In fact, the reality of other class builds stomping out thief PvP presence is evidence that the game is effectively beyond saving.

Haven't read a post wich such biased ignorance in a while, u would get along with incisor well.To ur ridiculous pointsThief has no weapon cooldowns_trade off are ini is global resource.once used no weapon skills are useable which translates to being worse than having cd's especially since some skills like IA take 1/3 of ur ini per use. Also all utilities have cd's.

Lots of easy access to teleportsWhat class doesnt these days? Kidding aside all tele use ini or have appropriate CD lengths. Tele on thief is there to balance its low sustain unlike some classes with access who have sustain. Most tele dont do dps.

High damage skills?Just this shows u do not play thief and are just but hurt as u must have got lardely outplayed by a thief and are mis placing the anger at the thief and not towards your aperant low skill level.U can literally build full zerks and pop assassins sig and pound on most classes using most of thiefs standard skills and due to the passive and active sustain classes have these days they will block,go invulnerable and or out heal ypure damage all while downing u in 3 hits,any three hits.. As a rogue character that's supposed to be glassy,mobile and deadly the balance is way off in this games version of thief. Only reliable dps or burst thief has is cheap one trick pony builds like perma stealth MBS etc which is annoying to die to as much as it is annoying to rely on. This promotes unhealthy playstyle and alot of salt from the opposition

Tele thru walls is a issue with other professions as well as thief so. Also these skills suffer from no line of sight issues at inapropriate times just as often.

Mentioning thieves ability to get to different elevations is also a silly point as its ability to do do isn't any worse than a rev,scourge or mesmer to name a few attacking elevated surfaces from range with aoe'S and clones or attacking through wall,some classes JI on guard can set up it's big burst tele to an opponent at an elevated surfaces yet u pick on thiefs ability to access them for mobility or disengagrment purposes? Ok.Anyway I think if most people legitimately spent time on thief they'd see how underperforming they actually are but that in itself is a ridiculous thought.

Your argument basically revolves around other classes either having access to staple Thief memes or getting their own overpowered gimmicks which negate Thief's ability to just poke with initiative teleports and initiative evades which used to utterly destroy most every class in the game leading up to 2015. Someone made a good break-down of why Rampage is annoying to play against and tends to warp combat around it while it is active on the field:

@"Curennos.9307" said:

Rampage is veeeery far from a 'long cd', relatively speaking. It isn't that it's impossible to survive rampage - it's the amount of resources a player has to dedicate to mitigate a single elite skill and the frequency at which the skill can be used. It doesn't matter how many skills the elite has that are must-dodge (minimum two of them - #4 and #5. Arguably 3 I guess. Anyway).

It isn't even how telegraphed some of the skills are - it's that you MUST mitigate them and MUST dedicate not-insignificant resources to doing so. 'lol just dodge' means jack - the POINT is to deprive your opponent of defensive cooldowns to the point where they can be killed. Rampage does that too well too often - it's investment/reward is way out of whack. Other classes have wet dreams about having an elite skill that forces the opponent to dedicate that many defensive resources to dealing with it.

Thief is "Rampage: the class." It deals so much damage and undermines positioning or timing on such frequency, that it is impossible to deal with them unless the class which you brought to bear against them also features gimmicks which negate incoming damage or inflict absurd damage on demand and very frequently. The way to fight a Thief is to outright simply have Thief gimmicks. That's how much of an issue Thief has always been: it has always warped combat around its presence.

You don't seem like a person who played Guild Wars 2 from 2012-2014, and if you were, then you either didn't play PvP or you were just bad at it. Thief was a nearly-unchallenged, teleport machine for years because nothing evenly competed with a player which came through walls and dealt 2-4k damage per attack string while also inflicting AoE blind during stealth (in a meta with slower attacks) and spamming evade periods in quantities which no other class could replicate (this was also before PvP amulets got all of those free stats too, so if you wanted to do damage in PvP, you really could not have any Vitality in your build because Marauder didn't exist). I've played core staff Elementalist in PvP since early 2013. I was always at a consistent disadvantage against Thieves back then to the point where it was much easier to just avoid them entirely if possible. I can hold my own against Thieves in 2019, and it wasn't necessarily because I got better--my spec just got more broken and unfair. Things like double Arcane Wave and Lighting Rod (especially if combined with Tornado) are the key to breaking a Thief, and those are not fair abilities: they are passive procs and instant casts which inflict ridiculous damage, weakness and other brutal conditions like blind or 2s of immobilize. On top of this, Arcane Shield has literally half the recharge time that it did back when I started playing PvP.

This doesn't mean that Thief is "underperforming," it means that Thief has always been broken and low-effort, but everything else in the game has just been dragged down to the same awful dynamics which made Thief annoying to play against in 2013. You are the kind of person I talk about when I mention how this game's playerbase lacks the willpower to look at the holistic reasons for why GW2 has an awful PvP system. Guild Wars 2 is a mess of bloat and samey, overpowered gimmicks. Thief was the first; now everyone else has just caught up.

Wait, so you played Staff Ele, a highly immobile class relying on long channel times and delays to do damage ,that also happens to be focused on AoE fights and naturally does poorly in 1v1s, and you expected to not have a poor matchup against a 1v1 class? .... What? I mean thats quite frankly, stupid. Its like picking a build with no condi cleanse and complaining that condi builds are broken because they kill you and you cant do anything about them. Now, if you picked the Ele build that was good at 1v1s (and also just much better than Staff Ele in general because you dont rely on 1+ seconds channel time to do damage), D/D Ele, you actually fought thieves fairly well. I believe thief was slightly favoured until the fire traitline got buffed, after which it was pretty unfavoured.

Anyway, you are only slightly correct. Back then thief was far from "near-unchallenged". They were a good 1v1 class. At times the best, most of the times just good. Now, this was a slight problem with their mobility, since it created unfavourable rotations, but that was a problem not with thieves fighting capability, but rather shortbow 5. However, after that, when deciding to keep shortbow 5, Anet didnt just buff everything else. Thief got repeated heavy nerfs. Acrobatics was nerfed to hell to create the inferior replacement of Daredevil. Damage was nerfed heavily accross the board. Stealth attacks were rendered largely useless, and stealth as a whole became poor to use in-combat.

Now, where youre wrong is on multiple points. First, "Thief does so much damage". Thieves damage is, simply put, highly underwhelming. After repeated nerfs, they are outclassed by every single class in that regard. Unless they go full cheese-mode (Which they can only do in WvW), thieves damage is just poor. The auto-chain is And no, the way to fight thief isnt to have "thief gimmicks" (thief has gimmicks? They had stealth but noone uses stealth in-combat, and if anything, most of the "gimmicks" we have right now are just old Warrior and Mesmer mechanics those always had). Their auto-chains are alright, but they have little damage outside of them, and their auto-chains arent ahead of the others enough to outweigh the lack of other high-damage skills (in fact, they are behind several other ones). Now, Sword/Dagger thief fares a whole lot better in this regard, but even it got outclassed pretty hard by nerfs.

Thieves damage was always not all that high, with their primary power instead coming from their incredible 1v1-centric defensive abilities. The blind from shadowshot and Black powder were a lot more potent back then, stealth attacks actually useable, and overall sustain lower (making thieves comparitive sustain much higher). The thing that made thief suck isnt others "getting thieves gimmicks", which is a stupid statement anyway. No, its the fact that thieves performance was overall lowered, while everyone else got a lot more sustain and damage. And thats not even getting into the changes to stats, runes and sigils which hurt thief moreso than other classes. Thief always did alright damage but was backed up by potent defensive abilities few classes could rival (which were the other 1v1 classes that could actually fight thief evenly). Now those defensive abilities are outclassed, thieves alright damage became pathetic damage, and the whole gamestate changed.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@"getalifeturd.8139" said:Arenanet talk about thief needing tradeoffs?

While we used to be able to avoid damage by evasion now we're punished for it: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unhindered_Combatant

While we used to be able to avoid zergs through stealth now we're punished for it: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/MarkedDetected! is an effect applied to players that enter stealth while they are marked. If they are stealthed for more than 2 seconds while detected, they will become revealed. Exiting stealth before this effect expires will remove this effect.

While we used to have better mobility than most classes now there's mounts: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WarclawIt also has 3 dodges and is immune to CC along with the fact it has 10,972 health which is almost as much as a full berserker's armor geared thief.

No no no...but but thief is so strong lmao it takes a whole 2 hits to down and hits with foam weapons lmao