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Raids and discrimination.


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@"Vinceman.4572" said:You are against raids & dungeons but don't speak up against fractals & open world where I personally encountered the most toxic behavior ingame. And here predominantly in the open world.I'm sure I'll win a lot in a bet that you've never tried raiding in a serious manner be it with your guild or pugs. But yeah, let's keep that picture about the toxic Moloch a.k.a. raids.Your posts are ridiculous.

Ridiculous, but valid. I'm not against dungeons and fractals, because that's the way to go with PvE "endgame" in my opinion. In fact, I think adding raids was a major mistake from the devs. Were it bunch of new cool 5-man dungeons tied to the Living Story, there would be not anywhere near as much toxicity in the game as currently is. And before you start "oh but dungeons back in the day were toxic too and fractals the same" - back in the golden days of dungeons, I used to run daily dungeon clears every day for months, and I saw little to no toxicity or elitism at all, because back then the mindset of players was completely different. Nowadays, I run Fractals every single day as well, and again I see very little toxicity. And the little there is comes from the raiding community behavior making its way to other parts of the game which brings us back to my original point = raids are not healthy for the game.

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@sarkysek.1085 said:

@sarkysek.1085 said:Delete raids from the game and ban all third-party software users. Case solved nice and easy. Raids have no place in GW2, nor do DPS meters.I think We know Your stance on raids :)

So? I'm allowed to have my personal stance or opinion.

Sure, but having a stance does not automatically protect you from ridicule, especially when it is such an outlandish one. How about we start with removing all the bots in spvp, before we turn on things like arcdps. Maybe tighten up the leniency on afking in spvp matches for rewards while we are at it.

@sarkysek.1085 said:Raids have no place in GW2, they only brought elitism, toxicity and pretended professionalism to the game. But the worst thing is that this ill mentality also spreads to other places within the game, other gamemodes that dont need it and its damaging to them. Raids and those who deem themselves higher human beings just because they play them will never be good for the game. Solution to this is simple: dont add any new raids and stop supporting the existing ones, so that they slowly die just like dungeons did so many years ago. And the toxic elitist mentality will die with them as raiders slowly quit the game.

Thank you for the laugh.

You're welcome. But it wasn't intended to be funny. I'm dead serious.

I think that makes it funnier tbh...

He speaks the truth though, but I can see why a selective few find it funny.

what s/he wrote is absolute nonsense.This so called "elitism" is in every part of this game. To reply in her/his own language, s/he is just "salty" as hell because reasons, and to call for a mode to be shut down because "i don´t like it" is as "toxic" as it can get.Not even to mention the blunt generalization of people that do not share the same mindset/interests that s/he does. That makes this statement even more sour.The sad thing is, if s/he would have been part of this raidcommunity s/he so much despices, and "gud" aswell, characteristicly s/he would fall in the small part of said community that makes raids for other people not enjoyable. You good madam/sir make me sick.

Edit: to clarify, the last part of my comment was adressed to @sarkysek.1085 and not to you personally unless you share the same believes.

Likewise. People like you are the reason why I'll always boycott raids until they are removed and this toxic behaviour with them.

Given how you seem fond of spvp and wvw, and given how some of the most toxic behavior in this game is happening especially in spvp. I wonder how you would feel if the tables were turned and pve players showed up in the spvp forums and declared the entire community there toxic and the game mode should get removed. That's literally what you are doing here. Might want to give that some thought.

Now you might come and argue that not the entire player base playing spvp is toxic and a few bad apples who can't behave are shinning a bad light on the remaining players. Funny enough, I would imagine a few pve raiders might say the same about raids. Go figure.
  1. This thread is about raids, not wvw or spvp. 2. Raids are not a gamemode. They are only a minority part of PvE.

So you get to be toxic because this thread is about a game mode or part of a game mode you do not enjoy? Seems a wierd justification, but what ever makes you be able to live with yourself.

Raids are just as much a game mode onto themselves compared to the remaining pve as is high rank Spvp (and tournaments) compared to mid or low tier spvp. Both with unique sets of rules, approach and builds and cooperation not present in lower and more basic brackets.

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I don't understand how other people kicking you because you're new is the fault of raids, your gripe should be with the people that kicked you not the fact that raid exists? Furthermore, by not having any difficult content, you are automatically discriminating against better players because the game would feel like /afk fashion wars.

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The issues with raids fall down to Anet's design of the game. When the majority of PvE in the game spoon feeds success and asks nothing from the players nor demands that they understand class synergies and optimized rotations, you then have these huge culture shocks with raids and that's where the pain point happens.

Someone can play up to T4 fractals in their crappy knights/dire/cleric gear or odd trait choice or a greatsword camping mesmer or staff camping minion necro and be unpleasantly surprised when real instanced content demands a group comp where boons are maximized and kept at close to 100% uptime and CC and bursts are coordinated alongside defensive tools to not interrupt DPS.

I go run Ascalonian Catacombs for some Monk runes for my renegade, and lo and behold I have to constantly scold people to stack by me to get might/heals because they'd rather run around using their ranged autoattacks or pig/bear pets they've gotten used to getting carried on during open world PvE.

This game really strives to decrease the quality of players participating in endgame content and places few if any pathways within the game to train people to be competent participants in serious endgame PvE.

And then what happens is that so many people are so utterly incompetent that the trust of new people in PuG groups is nonexistent, so you get all these exaggerated requirements to participate in content to make sure you are filtering out blatantly inept players to save time on trivial wipes, so potentially competent newcomers are never given a chance because their inept counterparts have poisoned the well.

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@sarkysek.1085 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:You are against raids & dungeons but don't speak up against fractals & open world where I personally encountered the most toxic behavior ingame. And here predominantly in the open world.I'm sure I'll win a lot in a bet that you've never tried raiding in a serious manner be it with your guild or pugs. But yeah, let's keep that picture about the toxic Moloch a.k.a. raids.Your posts are ridiculous.

Ridiculous, but valid. I'm not against dungeons and fractals, because that's the way to go with PvE "endgame" in my opinion. In fact, I think adding raids was a major mistake from the devs. Were it bunch of new cool 5-man dungeons tied to the Living Story, there would be not anywhere near as much toxicity in the game as currently is. And before you start "oh but dungeons back in the day were toxic too and fractals the same" - back in the golden days of dungeons, I used to run daily dungeon clears every day for months, and I saw little to no toxicity or elitism at all, because back then the mindset of players was completely different. Nowadays, I run Fractals every single day as well, and again I see very little toxicity. And the little there is comes from the raiding community behavior making its way to other parts of the game which brings us back to my original point = raids are not healthy for the game.

...There was a significant amount of toxicity in dungeons and fractals before raids where added. Just because you saw little to no elitism does not mean there was none. Ranger mains had to deal with a significant amount of toxicity and would have issues finding groups, simply because of the class the like to play. And I too ran daily dungeon clears. The mindset of players was no different to today, some wanted a casual dungeon group while others wanted speed clears. That is no different to today, where some groups do casual raids (ie you can go off meta so long as you can pull your weight and time is less important), while others do speed clears where they want to finish as many bosses a fast as possible. I see plenty of toxicity in fractals and it often comes from the non-raiders. It is almost like your experience is not the be all to end all of what happens in game. Oh and fractals, unlike raids have a natural progression, and it would be very difficult/impossible to create that progression in raids as they exist now.

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@sarkysek.1085 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:You are against raids & dungeons but don't speak up against fractals & open world where I personally encountered the most toxic behavior ingame. And here predominantly in the open world.I'm sure I'll win a lot in a bet that you've never tried raiding in a serious manner be it with your guild or pugs. But yeah, let's keep that picture about the toxic Moloch a.k.a. raids.Your posts are ridiculous.

Ridiculous, but valid. I'm not against dungeons and fractals, because that's the way to go with PvE "endgame" in my opinion. In fact, I think adding raids was a major mistake from the devs. Were it bunch of new cool 5-man dungeons tied to the Living Story, there would be not anywhere near as much toxicity in the game as currently is. And before you start "oh but dungeons back in the day were toxic too and fractals the same" - back in the golden days of dungeons, I used to run daily dungeon clears every day for months, and I saw little to no toxicity or elitism at all, because back then the mindset of players was completely different. Nowadays, I run Fractals every single day as well, and again I see very little toxicity. And the little there is comes from the raiding community behavior making its way to other parts of the game which brings us back to my original point = raids are not healthy for the game.

I run raids 4 times each week and i never ever saw any toxicity. I used to do fractals but i stopped because combination of ignorance, poor play and toxicity was too much for me.

I cannot see why raids were bad for the game if i know players that play only because of raids but i know noone that ever left because raids were added (amd if someone did why didnt he/she just not play them? )

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@"Zenith.7301" said:so potentially competent newcomers are never given a chance because their inept counterparts have poisoned the well.so that have that chance always, make your raid, make your rules, take all cleric thief's and be happy. No one cant say "NO" for that.

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@Zenith.7301 said:The issues with raids fall down to Anet's design of the game. When the majority of PvE in the game spoon feeds success and asks nothing from the players nor demands that they understand class synergies and optimized rotations, you then have these huge culture shocks with raids and that's where the pain point happens.

Someone can play up to T4 fractals in their crappy knights/dire/cleric gear or odd trait choice or a greatsword camping mesmer or staff camping minion necro and be unpleasantly surprised when real instanced content demands a group comp where boons are maximized and kept at close to 100% uptime and CC and bursts are coordinated alongside defensive tools to not interrupt DPS.

I go run Ascalonian Catacombs for some Monk runes for my renegade, and lo and behold I have to constantly scold people to stack by me to get might/heals because they'd rather run around using their ranged autoattacks or pig/bear pets they've gotten used to getting carried on during open world PvE.

This game really strives to decrease the quality of players participating in endgame content and places few if any pathways within the game to train people to be competent participants in serious endgame PvE.

And then what happens is that so many people are so utterly incompetent that the trust of new people in PuG groups is nonexistent, so you get all these exaggerated requirements to participate in content to make sure you are filtering out blatantly inept players to save time on trivial wipes, so potentially competent newcomers are never given a chance because their inept counterparts have poisoned the well.

I largely agree with this, with the caveat (or addition?) that Raids are different from Dungeons solely due to the stricter (but still very lax) time requirements. I don't quite remember a boss in dungeons that couldn't be pushed over and over with full on defenses until you beat it up, whereas raids enforce a minimum damage threshold to be crossed. This is a crucial difference for there to even be a minimum, in spite of it being easy to reach by anyone who gears correctly.

So Dungeons did have plenty of elitism back then but there was plenty of room for relaxed pug groups that still wanted in the content but didn't mind at all that their runs took up to hours of their time. With raids it's either our way or the highway, and Anet is entirely aware of this

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@"CountMozenrath.7631" said:So I'm new to this raiding thing and wanted to try it out so i can get the "Hateful Sworl" precursor. So There I was after a long day joining a squad doing Hall of Chains and doing my best with my Barrier + Heal Scourge build (I'm a Necro main) ya know keeping people healthy and safe till we got up to Dhuum. So I was like "oh boy this the finally" and I'm being asked what my skill level is... So I told them I was new and got kicked instantly. Ok no biggy I'll find another group, so I joined another one and got kicked within 10 sec just for being a Necro and this happened with 3 other groups as well within 10 min of time. As a person with severe Social Anxiety this is not very motivating. I get insults thrown at me like "Noob go train" or "No Necros, Thieves..." and if I ask them if there is any problem they feel the need to humiliate me even more. Where did I think that interacting with people would go well. It causes me to eat myself up and ask "what did I do wrong ?" or "what could I have done to make it better". I'm just a person that tries to make something out of life after every setback and curve ball, but I guess if you're treated like an outcast in real life it also reflects online and there is no point trying to be something else. Anyone else in the same pandemonium ?

Toxicity apart, the reason ( and I chose to use the word reason instead of problem/issue, because it's something which is related to simple aspect of the game ) is that players take for granted that everybody knows which is the meta tier, and he has the right class for the right encounter.

Given a specific challenge, the players will try anything to lower the difficulty of the encounter, which includes:

  • Using voice chat.
  • Using the best build ( Profession, equipment, infusions, food, etc ).
  • Class Swap if needed ( everybody, since the game throws you equipment aoe, many players could bring support to party just by having more classes, and by knowing how they work ).
  • Recruit for the run only experience players ( with many tokens ).
  • Etc...

If you go not following this pattern, there's a higher possibility of losing time ( because of wipes, due to low dps, low heals, etc ).And since the raid is made for up to 10 players, think what could happen if anybody try to play the way he wants.

At last, this is not a criticism.I just explained what players want in order to save time and lower to increase to the top the chance of success.

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@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:The issues with raids fall down to Anet's design of the game. When the majority of PvE in the game spoon feeds success and asks nothing from the players nor demands that they understand class synergies and optimized rotations, you then have these huge culture shocks with raids and that's where the pain point happens.

Someone can play up to T4 fractals in their crappy knights/dire/cleric gear or odd trait choice or a greatsword camping mesmer or staff camping minion necro and be unpleasantly surprised when real instanced content demands a group comp where boons are maximized and kept at close to 100% uptime and CC and bursts are coordinated alongside defensive tools to not interrupt DPS.

I go run Ascalonian Catacombs for some Monk runes for my renegade, and lo and behold I have to constantly scold people to stack by me to get might/heals because they'd rather run around using their ranged autoattacks or pig/bear pets they've gotten used to getting carried on during open world PvE.

This game really strives to decrease the quality of players participating in endgame content and places few if any pathways within the game to train people to be competent participants in serious endgame PvE.

And then what happens is that so many people are so utterly incompetent that the trust of new people in PuG groups is nonexistent, so you get all these exaggerated requirements to participate in content to make sure you are filtering out blatantly inept players to save time on trivial wipes, so potentially competent newcomers are never given a chance because their inept counterparts have poisoned the well.

I largely agree with this, with the caveat (or addition?) that Raids are different from Dungeons solely due to the stricter (but still very lax) time requirements. I don't quite remember a boss in dungeons that couldn't be pushed over and over with full on defenses until you beat it up, whereas raids enforce a minimum damage threshold to be crossed. This is a crucial difference for there to even be a minimum, in spite of it being easy to reach by anyone who gears correctly.

So Dungeons did have plenty of elitism back then but there was plenty of room for relaxed pug groups that still wanted in the content but didn't mind at all that their runs took up to hours of their time. With raids it's either our way or the highway, and Anet is entirely aware of this

I would say some Arah paths like Priestess of Dwayna (pre-nerf) without proper DPS were a nightmare. Back then healing options were far more limited as well as protection uptime.

But it's true raids did the sensible thing with lax enrage timers.

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@Aridon.8362 said:

@luzonophir.7134 said:well you can discriminate back, like NOT Playing RAIDS.

It's the ULTIMATE REKT move coz after RAID groups discriminate on you, you discriminate the whole RAID people back. its like many vs one and to avenge, one vs many ftw.

This doesn't make any sense.

i am not even a native english speaker and i find it lexically sound and even vivid in my head.

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@luzonophir.7134 said:

@luzonophir.7134 said:well you can discriminate back, like NOT Playing RAIDS.

It's the ULTIMATE REKT move coz after RAID groups discriminate on you, you discriminate the whole RAID people back. its like many vs one and to avenge, one vs many ftw.

This doesn't make any sense.

i am not a native english speaker and it is lexically sound and even vivid in my head.

Discrimination is when you unjustly treat someone differently on the basis of something. Like an Egyptian shooting a man from China for simply being from China.

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@Aridon.8362 said:

@luzonophir.7134 said:well you can discriminate back, like NOT Playing RAIDS.

It's the ULTIMATE REKT move coz after RAID groups discriminate on you, you discriminate the whole RAID people back. its like many vs one and to avenge, one vs many ftw.

This doesn't make any sense.

i am not a native english speaker and it is lexically sound and even vivid in my head.

Discrimination is when you unjustly treat someone differently on the basis of something. Like an Egyptian shooting a man from China for simply being from China.

tell me why there are multiple entries of MEANINGS of a word in a dictionary.

if you know, that means your last sentence is really the Egyptian chick took a picture of a man from China coz that Egyptian chick is fascinated and obsessed with that Chinese man who she found handsome.

and from that, you can vividly visualize what i said 4 levels up from this post.

and if still all of what i say doesn't make sense..

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@luzonophir.7134 said:

@luzonophir.7134 said:well you can discriminate back, like NOT Playing RAIDS.

It's the ULTIMATE REKT move coz after RAID groups discriminate on you, you discriminate the whole RAID people back. its like many vs one and to avenge, one vs many ftw.

This doesn't make any sense.

i am not a native english speaker and it is lexically sound and even vivid in my head.

Discrimination is when you unjustly treat someone differently on the basis of something. Like an Egyptian shooting a man from China for simply being from China.

tell me why there are multiple entries of MEANINGS of a word in a dictionary.

Because nouns, verbs, and adjectives exist dude. Also what you said I guess what is now five posts ago, defies logic because nobody will know who discriminated who, it defeats the purpose of discrimination to begin with! Stop being dumb!
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@Aridon.8362 said:

@luzonophir.7134 said:well you can discriminate back, like NOT Playing RAIDS.

It's the ULTIMATE REKT move coz after RAID groups discriminate on you, you discriminate the whole RAID people back. its like many vs one and to avenge, one vs many ftw.

This doesn't make any sense.

i am not a native english speaker and it is lexically sound and even vivid in my head.

Discrimination is when you unjustly treat someone differently on the basis of something. Like an Egyptian shooting a man from China for simply being from China.

tell me why there are multiple entries of MEANINGS of a word in a dictionary.

Because nouns, verbs, and adjectives exist dude. Also what you said I guess what is now five posts ago, defies logic because nobody will know who discriminated who, it defeats the purpose of discrimination to begin with! Stop being dumb!

if you discriminate against race, you discriminate against a fraction of people from the whole. if you discriminate against a country, that means you hate the people, the statues, the tourist attractions, the ambiance, the flora and fauna of that country. the latter is called BLANKET discrimination.

So tell me now, what constitutes a RAID map? all that i checked from my 2nd sentence above.

This means if RAIDS are akin to a country, and if discrimination has a score, your score will be wayyyyyyyyyyyyy higher than people who pinpointly discriminate a certain race.

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I main necro in raids and ive never been kicked before linking kp or li in 100li groups and 250li ones. Been playing power reaper for the past months and ive never been kicked. Im not SC levels of good but i do my role and i do it well, which is enough for any pug group. Ppl saying necros get kicked constantly is either them lying or not having pugged in their life.

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An easy and ultimately pointless solution that would force people to use even more arbitrary means of proving ones experience. We'd either have most groups demand the use of API linking sites or worse have things like asking for AP return.

Imagine if they removed all inaccessibilities and barriers from any job position in the real world. People would certainly be happy to join the top management without any work, experience or knowledge involved - well, until those companies went bankrupt in droves. There are reasons why there are requirements for certain positions, the game is no expection. The requirements set might not always seem to make sense but why settle for someone good if you can easily have someone great in the current climate?

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@Henry.5713 said:An easy and ultimately pointless solution that would force people to use even more arbitrary means of proving ones experience. We'd either have most groups demand the use of API linking sites or worse have things like asking for AP return.

Imagine if they removed all inaccessibilities and barriers from any job position in the real world. People would certainly be happy to join the top management without any work, experience or knowledge involved - well, until those companies went bankrupt in droves. There are reasons why there are requirements for certain positions, the game is no expection. The requirements set might not always seem to make sense but why settle for someone good if you can easily have someone great in the current climate?

3rd party API site would work only if Anet opened the API for them. Also if you have read the EULA. (I guess you did not). Reading informations about other players from API is a bannable offense. So if you use dps meter and kick someone for having low dps could potencialy get you banned.

Also comparing real world to a game makes no sense. In RW there are serious consequences, like people could get hurt or die. There is no consequence to dying to a boss. This whole argument is irelevant.

Fact is that something needs to be done to allow more players in raids. You really dont need to kill a boss 250 times to be allowed to raid. Especially since GW2 bosses are insanely easy compared to other mmos.

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@Chrysaliss.8720 said:3rd party API site would work only if Anet opened the API for them.

They do.

Also if you have read the EULA. (I guess you did not). Reading informations about other players from API is a bannable offense. So if you use dps meter and kick someone >for having low dps could potencialy get you banned.

True, didnt read that. Pretty sure they are only talking about personal information though. DPS is not personal information.

There is no consequence to dying to a boss. This whole argument is irelevant.

There is a consequence. Its called waste of time.

Fact is that something needs to be done to allow more players in raids. You really dont need to kill a boss 250 times to be allowed to raid. Especially since GW2 bosses are > insanely easy compared to other mmos.

Well, apparently you do. Ive seen people in 250LI groups refusing to do cannons on Sabetha because they dont know how to do them. I see Druids camping staff 1 and almost never using CA. People in this game can be utter garbage.

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@Chrysaliss.8720 said:Easiest solution for the raiding inaccessibility would be to make it impossible to link li/kp in the chat. As well as any other potentialy abusable items.

so no more different classes then i guess. -> potentialy abusable.not showing another players weapon setup anymore -> potentialy abusable.no more titles -> potentialy abusable.no more mastery levels shown -> potentialy abusable.no more minis -> potentialy abusable.no more special skins -> potentialy abusable..........its a stupid solution to a selfmade problem.raids are not inaccessible. some people just do not have the time/mindset to participate.raiders ARE raiding. non raiders find in inaccessible, because???i see a lot of raid guilds recruiting, even whole trainings communities. raids are no solo player experience you hotjoin on the go. you are a 10th % of a group, not less not more.nobody is forced to play with anyone, its a game, you said it yourself.

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@sigur.9453 said:

@Chrysaliss.8720 said:Easiest solution for the raiding inaccessibility would be to make it impossible to link li/kp in the chat. As well as any other potentialy abusable items.

so no more different classes then i guess. -> potentialy abusable.not showing another players weapon setup anymore -> potentialy abusable.no more titles -> potentialy abusable.no more mastery levels shown -> potentialy abusable.no more minis -> potentialy abusable.no more special skins -> potentialy abusable.

Okay. Most of this is just stupid and you know this. Taking things to extreme on purpose doesnt help your point.

.........its a stupid solution to a selfmade problem.raids are not inaccessible. some people just do not have the time/mindset to participate.raiders ARE raiding. non raiders find in inaccessible, because???i see a lot of raid guilds recruiting, even whole trainings communities. raids are no solo player experience you hotjoin on the go. you are a 10th % of a group, not less not more.nobody is forced to play with anyone, its a game, you said it yourself.

I am going to assume you have played WoW and know how it works there. In WoW the only way to prove your skill is the achievement, that you have killed the boss ONCE. There is no other possible proof. Also WoW bosses are 1000x times more complex.

In GW2 there is the LI/KP..... You see the problem already?

Also I never said that I dont raid. I just see the issue unlike other people here mindlessly defending it.

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@Chrysaliss.8720 said:

@Chrysaliss.8720 said:Easiest solution for the raiding inaccessibility would be to make it impossible to link li/kp in the chat. As well as any other potentialy abusable items.

so no more different classes then i guess. -> potentialy abusable.not showing another players weapon setup anymore -> potentialy abusable.no more titles -> potentialy abusable.no more mastery levels shown -> potentialy abusable.no more minis -> potentialy abusable.no more special skins -> potentialy abusable.

Okay. Most of this is just stupid and you know this. Taking things to extreme on purpose doesnt help your point.

i listed "other potentialy abusable items/things". please do not write what you apearently do not want to say or stay behind.

.........its a stupid solution to a selfmade problem.raids are not inaccessible. some people just do not have the time/mindset to participate.raiders ARE raiding. non raiders find in inaccessible, because???i see a lot of raid guilds recruiting, even whole trainings communities. raids are no solo player experience you hotjoin on the go. you are a 10th % of a group, not less not more.nobody is forced to play with anyone, its a game, you said it yourself.

I am going to assume you have played WoW and know how it works there. In WoW the only way to prove your skill is the achievement, that you have killed the boss ONCE. There is no other possible proof. Also WoW bosses are 1000x times more complex.

just vanilla, cant remember any achievments there, sry.you got in the groups if you had friends/ppl you played before on smaller scale content, or you or your guild had a good reputation. (there were no megaservers at the time)but i agree that in wow bosses were (or at least as a newbie mmo players perspective) more complex.i do not know how that supports your argument though. as in wow, raids are the hardest pve content ingame (+ fractal cm, obvously). it does not really matter HOW hard it is, or who decides what is hard or not (personally i find them too easy still)

In GW2 there is the LI/KP..... You see the problem already?

no, please explane. the one big flaw i see is in the ramdomness in how many of those KP you get / kill. LI is fine, and shows a good general expierence in raids.a real killcounter would be way better but i supposte gw2 community would not be entertained by that.

Also I never said that I dont raid. I just see the issue unlike other people here mindlessly defending it.

again, what issues?people with "the right mindset" have no problem raiding and understand that there is a general road to be "succesfull".Learn your class -> inform over boss mechanics -> join a guild ->......i do not want to generalize here but most of those "raids are innaccesible" people, from personal expierience, just want to skip some, if not all of these little steps.and therefore are even missing the most fun & rewarding part of raiding itself. to achieve something with a group and rise above all challenges.this is raids. you increase fun by 1000% if you have a (semi)static group.Pugs are just there for the loot. and people (rightfully) treat it like that.you make my loot harder? kick.block.lfg.or on the other side. kicked.blocked.forumpost.

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