2019/04/23 Berserker - What's the problem + how to fix (EZ Read format)

[Sobx.1758]

@TheBravery.9615 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@TheBravery.9615 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@TheBravery.9615 said:@Sobx.1758

Ok so I presented a problem in the OP and provided an argument for my change. What are your views on the problem and what's your idea to fix it? You're not adding much to the conversation by just saying "you're wrong" or "you're lying".

I told you what I disagreed with, I also said many times that I don't see the problem with windows of opportunity and power swings, so it means I'm ok with berk stance as it is. Just because I disagreed with your idea, doesn't automatically mean I "have to propose another change" or that I think it needs a replacement, what's your point here exactly?And I didn't just tell you "you're wrong" and left it at that, I explained why you proposed that change and why it's a bad idea (because you want to remove the trade-off). Seeing how you didn't deny that is also good enough for me.

I guess we just have different perspectives and it's fine to disagree, just wanted to know where you stand.

Let's talk about the 'trade-off' balance approach then.By losing 300 toughness, access to regular bursts, and throwing in a 15 second window where you're without any burst attacks when berserk mode ends, what is the trade off benefit that the berserker gets? more damage? Arenanet gave just gave us 10% more damage with bloody roar. An insane arc divider and decapitate? In my OP I recommended nerfs to them because it's disproportionately powerful. If it weren't for those two primal burst buffs, berserker would just have been dealt a hard nerf.

Let's also return to berserker pre 04/23 balance patch, where berserkers had both regular bursts and primal bursts. No trade offs and they had both benefits. Were they considered over powered? Please answer this.

I mean it's a pretty simple situation, if you think berk stance isn't worth the trade-off (but it is) and value having your regular f1 skills all the time then pick core warrior or SB. That's pretty much what you want, right? Or maybe you know that berk stance is worth it, but you don't like having a different playstyle then core/SB and still just "want more and better", so that's why you keep playing berk while simultanously complaining on the boards how useless it is?If berk is so terrible, what's the point of changing it closer to the core warrior instead of just playing core warrior? The whole point of especs is that they

should

play and feel differently. You want to have a core build with additional mechanic

on top of it

and that's not what they aimed for in this update. And, imo, rightfully so.

I'm going to assume you play thief because of your avatar and post history.

Ok, then I'll assume you play a farming simulator while specializing at trading apples.It's interesting how often that comes up. Just because someone sets an avatar x years ago doesn't mean they're limited to playing one class. And what you just said implies that I don't understand what I'm talking about unless you "show me an example on thief", but obviously you'll try to deny it (not the first nor the last time I see this, np :D ). Not sure how your assumptions are supposed to help here, but suit yourself.

Let me demonstrate an example using your analogy.

Daredevil gets a new mechanic, a third dodge and effects tied in to the dodges. By your logic, we can remove their ability to steal to make them "different". Don't like that? play core thief or deadeye.

3rd dodge isn't a "new mechanic", but ok.Daredevil have quite some tradeoffs already and got his steal ability nerfed too in the same patch they changed berk and other especs.And as much as you try (I think?) to be snarky by writing that, I also agree with "Don't like that? play core thief or deadeye" sentiment and that's why meta builds for thief for a long time consist of core thief specs. Want that 3rd dodge and whatever DD brings? Take that with the trade-offs. Don't like it? Pick the spec you do. So, yeah -good example, but I'm not sure how it changes what I said earlier, I still stand by what I said, whether we're talking about warriors, thieves, elementalists (I don't actually play this one btw) or apples.

[Sobx.1758]

@TheBravery.9615 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@TheBravery.9615 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@TheBravery.9615 said:@Sobx.1758

Ok so I presented a problem in the OP and provided an argument for my change. What are your views on the problem and what's your idea to fix it? You're not adding much to the conversation by just saying "you're wrong" or "you're lying".

I told you what I disagreed with, I also said many times that I don't see the problem with windows of opportunity and power swings, so it means I'm ok with berk stance as it is. Just because I disagreed with your idea, doesn't automatically mean I "have to propose another change" or that I think it needs a replacement, what's your point here exactly?And I didn't just tell you "you're wrong" and left it at that, I explained why you proposed that change and why it's a bad idea (because you want to remove the trade-off). Seeing how you didn't deny that is also good enough for me.

I guess we just have different perspectives and it's fine to disagree, just wanted to know where you stand.

Let's talk about the 'trade-off' balance approach then.By losing 300 toughness, access to regular bursts, and throwing in a 15 second window where you're without any burst attacks when berserk mode ends, what is the trade off benefit that the berserker gets? more damage? Arenanet gave just gave us 10% more damage with bloody roar. An insane arc divider and decapitate? In my OP I recommended nerfs to them because it's disproportionately powerful. If it weren't for those two primal burst buffs, berserker would just have been dealt a hard nerf.

Let's also return to berserker pre 04/23 balance patch, where berserkers had both regular bursts and primal bursts. No trade offs and they had both benefits. Were they considered over powered? Please answer this.

I mean it's a pretty simple situation, if you think berk stance isn't worth the trade-off (but it is) and value having your regular f1 skills all the time then pick core warrior or SB. That's pretty much what you want, right? Or maybe you know that berk stance is worth it, but you don't like having a different playstyle then core/SB and still just "want more and better", so that's why you keep playing berk while simultanously complaining on the boards how useless it is?If berk is so terrible, what's the point of changing it closer to the core warrior instead of just playing core warrior? The whole point of especs is that they

should

play and feel differently. You want to have a core build with additional mechanic

on top of it

and that's not what they aimed for in this update. And, imo, rightfully so.

I also want to add I see where you would disagree with my approach, you want to see berserker down time more often. What I suggest would in fact increase berserker uptime if the berserker is in combat, but I also introduced countermeasures, boon strips- as my suggestion ties berserker uptime to a specific boon.

I didn't suggest anything to remove or reduce the 15 second berserk cooldown, or to bring back regular burst attacks.

I commented about a different idea (which is still quoted in my first post), but you edited that out, so not sure why you're pretending we were always talking about the boon idea.But I don't think your new boon-based idea is better at all. It limits counterplay to so few skills or traits that it's close to none anyways. I think it also changes almost nothing from what I said in my first post: that it's just pretending to have a downtime, it basically is up whenever you want it to be for however you want it to be as long as you're slapping something. And when you're not slapping anything? Who cares about the cooldown then. And that's also why you didn't need to suggest anything about reducing cd or bringing regular burst attacks. Your ideas all revolve around not needing them, because you'd stay in berk mode.

[sneakytails.5629]

I would go further with the control over b-mode. but also the trade offs while in it.

Maybe I am wrong for thinking this, but I have always seen Berserker as the "Glass Cannon" of Warrior specs. I think it would be fair to give Berserker much more control of when they can enter and exit the mode but give an even steeper penalty to survival when B mode is activated. Maybe move the access to AH stacks to non b-mode and then remove them for b-mode, this would be fair since the Berserker would have much more control over the activation and de-activation of the mode.

I dont feel Berserker should have any business being tanky, or have any real sustain while in B-mode, but the damage really needs to be there along with much better control over their own destiny in fights.

[Obtena.7952]

@TheBravery.9615 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@TheBravery.9615 said:@Sobx.1758

Ok so I presented a problem in the OP and provided an argument for my change. What are your views on the problem and what's your idea to fix it? You're not adding much to the conversation by just saying "you're wrong" or "you're lying".

I told you what I disagreed with, I also said many times that I don't see the problem with windows of opportunity and power swings, so it means I'm ok with berk stance as it is. Just because I disagreed with your idea, doesn't automatically mean I "have to propose another change" or that I think it needs a replacement, what's your point here exactly?And I didn't just tell you "you're wrong" and left it at that, I explained why you proposed that change and why it's a bad idea (because you want to remove the trade-off). Seeing how you didn't deny that is also good enough for me.

I guess we just have different perspectives and it's fine to disagree, just wanted to know where you stand.

Let's talk about the 'trade-off' balance approach then.By losing 300 toughness, access to regular bursts, and throwing in a 15 second window where you're without any burst attacks when berserk mode ends, what is the trade off benefit that the berserker gets? more damage? Arenanet gave just gave us 10% more damage with bloody roar. An insane arc divider and decapitate? In my OP I recommended nerfs to them because it's disproportionately powerful. If it weren't for those two primal burst buffs, berserker would just have been dealt a hard nerf.

Let's also return to berserker pre 04/23 balance patch, where berserkers had both regular bursts and primal bursts. No trade offs and they had both benefits. Were they considered over powered? Please answer this.

Let's be clear ... there actually isn't a 'trade-off' for Berserker spec right now because we don't 'get' anything in return for being in non-berserk mode. Well, that's a bit of a lie .. we get to be deficient core warriors ....

I would actually be happy if a trade off really existed.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@"Sobx.1758"

First off, what exactly are these trade-offs you're saying players get when they choose Daredevil? What do they "lose" to gain something else in the same sense of what Berserker loses to gain something else? I don't dispute the fact that Core thief is the sPvP meta but outside of that, where more build diversity is allowed, its an entirely different story. So I would like an answer to this question because I'm quite curious as to what the embedded downsides are to these two Elite Specs outside of what you have said consistently is "they aren't meta [in sPvP]".

You're approaching this from a perspective pertaining to sPvP, which as I think I've said before can be a poor way of determining class balance as sPvP itself, as part of its title even says, is very structured and rigid. This means that you are limited to what kinds of builds you can use (you even confirm this yourself when you reference Core Thief being meta, the only meta apparently, for a long time) and this is entirely because of how Conquest as a game mode works. Rotating points, contesting points, team fights. There are things that work in sPvP, that people call OP like Rampage, and yet in the other PvP mode, WvW, those skills or what people call "OP" are much less so. Rampage is very predictable and so easily kited and avoided outside of sPvP that its more funny than anything to see a Warrior use it.

You talk about core thief being the meta for Thief yet the moment you move to WvW you see Daredevil, Deadeye and Core Thief all working well and are considered effective roaming classes. Deadeye even being considered cheesy because they can just stealth for obscenely long periods of time, they still need to put an ICD on Silent Scope its still a problem. This holds true for many other classes as well. Druid, Reaper, Weaver, Tempest, Dragonhunter, Core Mesmer, Core Guard, Core Warrior, hell even Core Revenant possibly at this point due to the buffed healing with Ventari (though I imagine Herald would be preferred).

You also say that Berserker is fine but literally every Berserker I've fought, me on Core Warrior, has been a one trick pony and so long as you just invuln or block or dodge the Arc Divider then you're just fine. Mind you its as easy to dodge as the normal Arcing Slice. Gunflame remains the meme it always was as well. Then once Berserk Mode ends...where does that leave the Berserker? Very easy prey. Again this is not anyone advocating for them to "remove" counterplay or the ability to play around cooldowns or other things, this is just an acknowledgment that Berserker does not function well. I believe I've said to you before, there is already enough counterplay to Warrior as is and they just added more than necessary to Berserker with this rework.

The Elite Spec right now is practically carried by Arc Divider and its arguably OP damage, really nothing else gives it any sort of "edge" in a fight. Which is why I can see why you believe it is fine in the context of sPvP, like I said before some very specific things seem to over perform in sPvP just due to how Conquest works, namely the very tiny capture points that Arc Divider will 100% cover in their entirety with its radius. The moment that damage gets nerfed, which trust me it will its coming and probably next month, Berserker will fall deep into obscurity again probably even more so this time than last time.

[Sobx.1758]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:@"Sobx.1758"

First off, what exactly are these trade-offs you're saying players get when they choose Daredevil? What do they "lose" to gain something else in the same sense of what Berserker loses to gain something else?

Play and get to know the class/espec a bit and I'm sure you'll get to the correct conclusions. I'm not here to copy paste half of gw2 wiki for you, there's no reason to do that. If you think (and that's what you wrote before, so you do) that DD is a straight upgrade building over a core thief, then you're just wrong, that's all there is to it. Not sure if you're just looking for someone to argue with for the sake of arguing, but I'm not in the mood of starting another wall of text "back and forth", so maybe I'll read the rest another time, you'll get a notification o/