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@SehferViega.8725 said:Talking about thief, with this wonderful balance patch you achiev a great result: in all competitive modes (PvP and WvW) core thief overcomes by far elite spec (Daredevil and Deadeye).Eh, don't be so exaggerated! Deadeyes are still strong. Anyway, I indeed met more core thieves in sPvP in the last 2 days, and only few DD (who mainly spammed Vault on no one, so probably first timers on the spec). So the purpose of this patch seems partially reached, for now.

I can cope with the nerf, considering the ambitious aim that Irenio had at the opening of this thread: to make the core specs more appealing. It's fair. And if you look closer at the skill tree, you won't find sooo many nerfs (in addition to the AA). For example the new +240 pow of Staff Master is very similar to the old +10%, for decently geared ppl. A small nerf if you went full berserk. It might be even a boost for undergeared thieves. The +7% of Havoc Mastery on the other hand (that was a boost for playing in melee range, that in theory had more sense with the current spec, since we became more tanky now) must be compensated by constantly keeping the enemy weak. Which basically means that our rotation became even duller and more boring: 22222111222. Just spamming Staff #2. Joy. Until they nerf also this one.

But it's fine, I guess: DD lose some steal, stealth and shadowstep to gain a bit higher and steady damage (if you can keep weakness). We became mini-warriors, rather than thieves. So ppl can decide if it's worth.

Like for the Berserkers: they gain +300 power, +300 condi and +20% dmg while in berserk mode which is ALOT if you know when activate it (yesterday a berserker destroyed us all in PvP) but it's more risky because if you are knockeddown, stunned or disabled in general, you lose your boost. So for people like me, that only play warrior as alt, it's better to keep using a core spec: lower damage, but steady, and I don't have to worry to time my best skills during my rage time. Both have a meaning.

Also the nerf to the Druid makes sense from this point of view. The problem is that they nerfed/reworked only these 3 elite specs. Why should I play core elementalist if I bought HoT? The Tempest is a plain improvement: it doesn't lose any core mechanic. Overloads are simply the version 2.0 (I'm not saying to nerf the Tempest, beware, it's not OP atm, but just that I don't see any trade-off compared to the core profession). Or Dragonhunters? The DH's virtues are improvements of the core ones: if you don't know how to use them, you can leave the passive effect and it's exactly the same. But you have the traps in addition (plus a +37% dmg modifier for using well the spec). Why play core?Why play core Mesmer if you unlocked the elite spec either? You can say that crono is more difficult to play than core, and this is true, so this is the trade-off. But the elites are just improved versions, not alternative.

It's fine to nerf DD, Druid and change the Berserker, since I also agree that it's a good idea to keep some diversity, and give more incentives to play core classes. But it's not boosting the mace that I start to play core Guardian, or boosting the dagger that I start to play core Elementalist. Every spec can use core weapons.Put 1 fixed damage modifier (for example +5% or +7%) to each core skill tree (for example for just using a weapon) and a slightly higher dmg modifier (+7% or +10%) in the elite tree IF you meet some condition (like keeping the foe burned/weakened/vulnerable, play in range etc). So ppl can chose depending on how they want to play/change their rotations.

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@"Cragga the Eighty Third.6015" said:

@"Cragga the Eighty Third.6015" said:Wondering if solo druid will still be playable in PvE with the pet nerf.

RIP my Power Druid niche build with Shouts. ? Gonna miss Glyph of Empowerment for sure too; I used it all the time in both solo & group. Guess this means I might be switching back to vanilla Ranger or Soulbeast for PvE. (I can’t in good faith play my ranger without running Beastmastery <3 )

Sad to hear your troubles. :(

I thought I might have to go back to core Ranger on my main, but went to Auric Basin today for a little while and found I could still solo a veteran Mordrem Vinetooth without noticeable extra effort, so I guess I will wait for a tough story boss before I panic any more. My axes weren't nerfed, happily.

It’s not that troublesome after all is said and done, since I enjoy this game so much. ? I’ll have to try it out like you did and see if I notice a difference.

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This was very nice balance patch.Ofc will be more logic decrase pet atrrib 90% on avatar mode, and leave as is in non avatar mode. But it is ok too.f2 on revenant looks strange .. strange, but not bad, or good.

@Urud.4925 said:Why should I play core elementalist if I bought HoT?You should not. This is like if I will ask why should I play chrno sup mesmer if I bought POF ?

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@"Urud.4925" said:Eh, don't be so exaggerated! Deadeyes are still strong. Anyway, I indeed met more core thieves in sPvP in the last 2 days, and only few DD (who mainly spammed Vault on no one, so probably first timers on the spec). So the purpose of this patch seems partially reached, for now.

"Few DD (who mainly spammed Vault on no one)" "Deadeyes are still strong.".. man, what's your PvP rank? we can talk about a class if you reason about people that know how to use it/counter it.Deadeye in WvW is basically dead (with mounts, sentinel marks and stealth nerf).

I can cope with the nerf, considering the ambitious aim that Irenio had at the opening of this thread: to make the core specs more appealing. It's fair. And if you look closer at the skill tree, you won't find sooo many nerfs (in addition to the AA). For example the new +240 pow of Staff Master is very similar to the old +10%, for decently geared ppl. A small nerf if you went full berserk. It might be even a boost for undergeared thieves. The +7% of Havoc Mastery on the other hand (that was a boost for playing in melee range, that in theory had more sense with the current spec, since we became more tanky now) must be compensated by constantly keeping the enemy weak. Which basically means that our rotation became even duller and more boring: 22222111222. Just spamming Staff #2. Joy. Until they nerf also this one.

"Make the core specs more appealing".. talking about thief, core S/D is by far the best build, so basically they did't need to nerf daredevil.You consider daredevil only thinking about staff build, but there are also D/D (power and condi), D/P, S/D..

But it's fine, I guess: DD lose some steal, stealth and shadowstep to gain a bit higher and steady damage (if you can keep weakness). We became mini-warriors, rather than thieves. So ppl can decide if it's worth.

Become mini warrior? They did't give us +600 toughness, +5k life, endure pain and stability.

Daredevil loses damage (specially in PvE) and 600 range on Steal.

Daredevil gains a little damage reduction or a good condi clean, but with 600 range steal you must stay in short range, so basically Daredevil loses survability.Nothing has changed in stealth mechanics.

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@SehferViega.8725 said:

@"Urud.4925" said:Eh, don't be so exaggerated! Deadeyes are still strong. Anyway, I indeed met more core thieves in sPvP in the last 2 days, and only few DD (who mainly spammed Vault on no one, so probably first timers on the spec). So the purpose of this patch seems partially reached, for now.

"Few DD (who mainly spammed Vault on no one)" "Deadeyes are still strong.".. man, what's your PvP rank? we can talk about a class if you reason about people that know how to use it/counter it.Deadeye in WvW is basically dead (with mounts, sentinel marks and stealth nerf).

I can cope with the nerf, considering the ambitious aim that Irenio had at the opening of this thread: to make the core specs more appealing. It's fair. And if you look closer at the skill tree, you won't find sooo many nerfs (in addition to the AA). For example the new +240 pow of Staff Master is very similar to the old +10%, for decently geared ppl. A small nerf if you went full berserk. It might be even a boost for undergeared thieves. The +7% of Havoc Mastery on the other hand (that was a boost for playing in melee range, that in theory had more sense with the current spec, since we became more tanky now) must be compensated by constantly keeping the enemy weak. Which basically means that our rotation became even duller and more boring: 22222111222. Just spamming Staff #2. Joy. Until they nerf also this one.

"Make the core specs more appealing".. talking about thief, core S/D is by far the best build, so basically they did't need to nerf daredevil.You consider daredevil only thinking about staff build, but there are also D/D (power and condi), D/P, S/D..

But it's fine, I guess:
DD
lose some steal, stealth and shadowstep to gain a bit higher and steady damage (if you can keep weakness). We became mini-warriors, rather than thieves. So ppl can decide if it's worth.

Become mini warrior? They did't give us +600 toughness, +5k life, endure pain and stability.

Daredevil loses damage (specially in PvE) and 600 range on Steal.

Daredevil gains a little damage reduction
or
a good condi clean, but with 600 range steal you must stay in short range, so basically Daredevil loses survability.Nothing has changed in stealth mechanics.

Well. That's exactly what anet wanted to do. Add trade-offs.As daredevil you gain an extra endurance bar, but loose 600 range on steal.The only thing where this steal nerf really matters is PvP (where daredevil wasn't the best choice from what I read)In pve and wvw that doesn't really matter that much.But in PvP steal lets you teleport over half the map... So I guess that's justified.

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I played my Druid for the first time since the nerf and it was sad. :( There is hardly a point in even having a pet as only the toughest aren’t just immediately squished in T4 fractals. Between that and being without glyph of empowerment, I am really just a spirit shepherd now. :/ I’m not sure about the new glyph; it requires a long channel time and I would have to look at the details again to figure out when and if it is useful.

Bottom line, I didn’t enjoy playing Druid for the first time since I started playing this spec about two years ago. I confess it makes me sad as the character has been one of my mains and part of my GW2 identity. :'( I will be taking a break from Druid and have redistributed AR, accessories, etc., to other characters for now.

I don’t want to be all negative and I am really enjoying Necro! Power Reaper is my go to DPS and I am enjoying playing support Scourge. :)

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@"Blaeys.3102" said:I like the idea of making the different elite specializations feel different through trade offs. I don't like the idea of pushing any specialization too heavily toward a hard trinity role (tank, heals, dps), which I feel they are hinting at with the druid changes. This isn't a raiding game and no single game mode should dictate how professions are designed.

The driving force should always be - "is it fun to play." Yes, make things feel different, but make them feel different based on their archetype, not on some pre-assigned slot required for a single game mode. While that may make it easier to design raid bosses, it makes things less fun for those in the rest of the game.

I know a small group of people will have issue with this thought, but I firmly believe the path they are taking with some of these changes crosses the line - pushing the game closer to being a WoW clone - and that is something we should avoid at all costs.

Agreed, druid is a disaster of a class and too many specs are being "balanced" around raids now. Make raids their own game mode for balancing like pvp and wvw please.

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I have played a lot with berserker since it was modified and partly I liked the changes made to the profession, the new mode is strong, but it is not very practical, having 15 seconds of CD and not being able to use burst abilities, you hear a little limited.I would prefer a version of berserker more like spellbreaker, with two adrenaline bars allowing it to use burst abilities and berserker mode with an activation cd of 8-10 seconds, reducing the duration and damage of berserker mode, in this way, it will be able to using the mechanic without waiting 15 seconds each time, but it would not be OP because it would not have absurd damages like now, in this way berserker and spellbreaker would be two opposite specializations and the warrior would not lose his identity remaining halfway between the two

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@"Nimon.7840" said:

Well. That's exactly what anet wanted to do. Add trade-offs.As daredevil you gain an extra endurance bar, but loose 600 range on steal.The only thing where this steal nerf really matters is PvP (where daredevil wasn't the best choice from what I read)In pve and wvw that doesn't really matter that much.But in PvP steal lets you teleport over half the map... So I guess that's justified.

Have you ever played a Thief in WvW and PvP to talk about trade-off, justified, "in wvw that doesn't really matter that much" ?

  1. "As daredevil you gain an extra endurance bar, but loose 600 range on steal." We just have an extra endurance bar, now, 3y later, we only lose 600 range on Steal.
  2. Have you ever tried to close the distance gap against a Soulbeast with a daredevil? And what if the Soulbeast are two? Try to do it in WvW with Steal, then change to Daredevil and try it with Swipe. Also try to fight against Rifle Holosmith and again tell me if daredevil is better then core.
  3. PvE is the only game mode where Swipe change is insignificant, but with new traits layout we have lost DPS.. so new patch ruins daredevil basically in everything.
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@SehferViega.8725 said:

@"Nimon.7840" said:

Well. That's exactly what anet wanted to do. Add trade-offs.As daredevil you gain an extra endurance bar, but loose 600 range on steal.The only thing where this steal nerf really matters is PvP (where daredevil wasn't the best choice from what I read)In pve and wvw that doesn't really matter that much.But in PvP steal lets you teleport over half the map... So I guess that's justified.

Have you ever played a Thief in WvW and PvP to talk about trade-off, justified, "in wvw that doesn't really matter that much" ?
  1. "As daredevil you gain an extra endurance bar, but loose 600 range on steal." We just have an extra endurance bar, now, 3y later, we only lose 600 range on Steal.
  2. Have you ever tried to close the distance gap against a Soulbeast with a daredevil? And what if the Soulbeast are two? Try to do it in WvW with Steal, then change to Daredevil and try it with Swipe. Also try to fight against Rifle Holosmith and again tell me if daredevil is better then core.

Wanna talk about necro? At least you do have mobility to run away and you can choose your fights. Yes soulbeast is super op right now. Well maybe berserker is fighting that position.

  1. PvE is the only game mode where Swipe change is insignificant, but with new traits layout we have lost DPS.. so new patch ruins daredevil basically in everything.

Yes. I played thief. But not so much.But I know a daredevil player, that trolls large groups, almost never dies and manages to kill others even if it's a 5v1.And he's still able to do that after the change

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@Nimon.7840 said:

Yes. I played thief. But not so much.But I know a daredevil player, that trolls large groups, almost never dies and manages to kill others even if it's a 5v1.And he's still able to do that after the change

Nobody kills others in 5vs1 if the 5 players are at least decent players.You are talking about staff daredevil, I suppose.If you look at Vault skill, you'll see that animation time is 3/4 second and evade time is 1/2 second. Before Vault hits you can hit thief, stun him and interrupt the skill.Dagger storm also can be counteracted by some classes (anyway Dagger Storm alone kills no one).

The problem remains the perma stealth mechanic that allows to hit with 17-19k Vault from stealth. Here we have low risk and high gain and it's something that, as main thief, I have always hated. This patch does not solve the problem, only nerf Daredevil IN THE WRONG WAY (cause encourages perma stealth oneshot builds and kills the builds that require skills).

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