The 10 most common errors and misconceptions of Conquest PvP — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The 10 most common errors and misconceptions of Conquest PvP

Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭
edited April 30, 2019 in PVP

The 10 most common errors and misconceptions of Conquest PvP
When playing ranked as a high tier player, who also competes with and against top teams in ATs, often you will realize mistakes in ranked. Some of these are simply mechanical shortcomings, non-viable builds, or errors of judgment made in the heat of the moment. Others are simply due to a lack of practice and skill, while more issues have already been covered by several of guides written on these topics, so I will not treat them any further here. However, there is also the case where people (often, but not exclusively) from lower divisions significantly deviate from the playstyle you would see in optimized teams and do it out of full conviction. This goes back to several misconceptions and myths about ranked that proliferate in lower leagues and are often held as universal wisdoms there, while being seen as an error by almost every high level player. I will discuss these misconceptions here and give a short explanation why they are wrong.

**1)
“Don’t push far” **
Probably not as common as it used to be due to the proliferation of Twitch streaming from high level duelist players streaming their gameplay on Twitch, but still heard now and then. Now the issue with this statement is that it CAN be true, but isn’t universally. The point is that it strongly depends on your comp. Splitting 1 close and 4 mid for teamfight is probably the most common split in this meta, but in Ranked and Unranked Qs with non-optimized teamcomps your split heavily depends on your team composition and its suitability. The main teamfighting trio is FB/Scourge/Rev, now often with an additional Holo. If you have a comp close to this, investing into the teamfight in mid with 4 people is a good idea. If however your comp is heavy on bruisers and duelists like Warrior, Weaver, Chronomancer or Scrapper, it is probably a better idea to push for 3 nodes and try to create as many 1v1s as possible. Also roamers often can showcase their full strength and contribution when there is several different fights to plus. Pushing 3 nodes is also a good idea if the enemy team is heavy on very defensive bruisers (again Scrapper, Weaver, Chronomancer) and you fear you lack the damage potential in your team to kill these quick enough. If you expect a very slow, bunker heavy game it is probably wiser to not give a freecap on close to the enemy at start, because it might be the only cap generating points for quite a long period into the game.

2)
“Thief close”

One of my personal favourites. I am still at loss about where this originated, but I keep reading it. I suspect it might have to something with trollish thief builds like Staff DD or Dagger/Dagger Condi CD being common in lower tiers. However, most thief builds viable in high tier (almost exclusively SD core as of the last patch) are notoriously awful duelists and should not be sent into 1v1s. They can take a few matchups (Mes, Rev, Mirror Matchup), but are absolutely awful in others (Holo, Scrapper, Warriors and Rangers in all their forms). The strength of Thief is in rotations, resulting in either +1s for quick kills or decaps. Sending it to cap close and risking it to be drawn into a 1v1 sacrifices this strength. Either the thief will fight a bad 1v1 and possibly lose, or be smart enough to disengage and create a number advantage in mid. However, even in that case close will be instantly lost, and that is not a desirable outcome whatsoever.

3)
“Fight on Points”

Another favourite of mine because of its absolute counter-productiveness and possibly the most common one out of this list. Nodes generate the major point gain in Conquest, so obviously holding them is generally a good thing to do. However, this is frequently taken to extremes by lower ranked players, resulting in the outcome that “fight on point” becomes “die on point”. And that is simply an awful play, unless your team is already at 490+ points and holding the node with your downed body for a few more seconds will save the game. Otherwise, you are ALWAYS better off to kite and resustain instead to win the fight and THEN cap the node (and ideally even more of them) back for your team. Some skills put enormous pressure on a small node (for example the Scourge Elite Ghastly Breach), and diehard tanking on the node is safe way to get yourself and your team wiped immediately. Also pursuing enemies fleeing from a teamfight is obviously worth it if you get the kill in a reasonable amount of time and the same goes for picking up enemies between nodes who have moved out of position. Not fighting on node is even more relevant in outnumbered situations, most commonly in 1v2. Unless your attackers are either extremely bad or play extremely low dps specs, you will not survive a 1v2 when you just facetank on node. However, you still easily generate value while kiting, as soon as you keep two people busy, resulting in a 4v3 for your team on the rest of the map. If then one guy leaves, you can repush the 1v1 (once your cooldowns are back to sufficient extent).
4)
“Don’t plus me”

This is basically the polar opposite of our number one. Whereas “don’t push far” is usually uttered by those who are deeply skeptical of any solo effort to contribute to the game, it is usually the overconfident duelist heroes of this game that dish out this one. It stems mostly from overconfidence and disregard for the team, just assuming that you will have to carry the game alone anyway and your team will be of zero help. However, generalizing like this is bad. A good and cleanly executed plus one, either turning a losing 1v2 into a winning 2v2, or a stalled 1v1 into a quick kill 2v1 can be of immense value, and is actually the main occupation of every thief. “Don’t plus me when you don’t have impact” is the more accurate version. Obviously 2v1s that go on for too long and don’t result in a kill are terrible and will put your team at a significant disadvantage. But generally forbidding +1 is bad advice.
5)
“All defend Lord”

A map specific one for Legacy. When your base gets pushed, and your lord is under attack this often leads to panic plays, resulting in too many people being sent in to save the situation. However, this will often result in a complete loss of map control. Generally since the revamp of the map, the Lord and his NPCS are fairly durable and do a decent amount of extra pressure on the guy fighting there, which means sending equal numbers to the lord will almost always be enough to save it. So: 1 guy pushing it? Send one guy to defend. 3 guys going for it? 3 defenders it is. But never more, as the raven said.
6)
“All to Tranq”

Another map specific one, this time for Temple. Obviously the bottom buff, which fullcaps every node for your team can be a huge gamechanger and hence of enormous value. However, overcommitting it can be deadly. The channel time of this buff is very long, and there is sufficient room for kiting in the “cellar” of the temple. This makes it very easy for specs who combi sustain and mobility (Druid probably being the best example, but many others are capable) to contest this buff outnumbered. Even if you run into trouble, it is usually easy to send in another player for contest, which can make it extremely painful to have your whole team fight there in order to get it. I have seen plenty situations where the team downstairs was basically farming kill after kill, but still losing the game because 2 or 3 nodes were meanwhile ticking for the other team and they never managed to cap the buff. Sending all your ressources to Tranq is usually a desperation play when you need a quick turnaround at the end of your game, similar to lordrush.
7)
“I’ll go Treb”

Fortunately not very common anymore, but still seen once in a while in lower divisions. This is probably the easiest and least controversial one. Don’t. Treb. Ever. Even after the revamp the treb is still extremely, clunky, slow, terrible to aim and easy to dodge. Your team will simply fight 4v5.
8)
“All push”

Momentum after a wipe is generally a good thing, and is not intended to say that you should not push far in case of a won teamfight. However, there is fine line between pushing your momentum and overcommitting. Often, pushing into far will not be done in full force, since one guy is still capping, or even a second one still watching close. Overcommiting on far pushes are the best way to throw a game after a won teamfight. Often, it is entirely sufficient to have one roamer decap far and just keep the rest of the team defending close and mid. Pushing far with the full team can be valuable, but you should always consider a retreat before you fullwipe. If you lose one guy while the enemy is still in full force – just disengage, regroup, repush. Don’t fight until everyone is dead.
9)
“Move out of base immediately”

Arguably not voiced explicitly as often as the other errors, but very commonly acted on. The meta right now is extremely snowbally, meaning that fights get decided by fast paced teamfights, and the winners of those teamfights then swarming out and winning the whole map, wiping the remaining players off the map and establishing full map control. In this situation it is absolutely crucial to stay in your base after a fullwipe until your WHOLE team has respawned and is ready to move out TOGETHER. Running in one by one and getting slaughtered is a safe way towards loss, yet frequently seen even in high platinum games.
10)
“Always bleed out downed enemies”

This is a tough one. Also not often said explicitly and also not generally wrong, but I think it is worth mentioning. I do not intent to say that bleeding out enemies is generally wrong. Obviously it is a good way to prolong your enemies respawn time and hence create an advantage for your team. However, it comes with a very big BUT. Res traits and skills are very common in this meta. The main culprit here is the Firebrand’s Signet of Mercy, but also the Blood Magic traits from Necromancer, Gyro scrappers, Search and Rescue, or even the traited Geysir Rez from Tempest. So, bleeding CAN be a value play, but the value you get from 5-10 seconds more enemy downtime does not really stand in relation towards the problems you create if you miscalculate and allow an enemy rez. Too often I see careless bleeding attempts resulting in a rez, or even a selfrez, because people either don’t pay attention or underestimate the rezpower of some builds. So, limit bleeding to situations where you are absolutely sure the situation is under your full control, for example when the enemy team has completely fullwiped and no potential rezbot is still alive, or you know for sure that every potential resser is so far away from the downed body that he can not possibly reach it in time. In cases of doubt – stomp or cleave! A good way to ensure cleave while not wasting too much time and already moving on with the next rotation is also soft cleave, as in you drop the downed to ~20-30% and then leave while leaving a few conditions, pulsing AoE (such as guardian symbols) or AI (ranger pet, mesmer clones) on him.

"When you say it's gonna happen "now"
When exactly do you mean?
See I've already waited too long
And all my hope is gone"
The Smiths about mAT return and PvP content

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Comments

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Good list, but I'm going to be controversial about the one that you think is least controversial and say that treb is underutilized by most people in the game right now. It is extremely niche but if you are coming off of re-spawn and there is an intense team-fight going on taking a few seconds to lob some boulders can turn the tides of a rally war much more quickly than running all the way over to the fight. While this is situational it is almost never done so I say it is underutilized, can agree that camping treb for prolonged periods is bad.

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    Good list, but I'm going to be controversial about the one that you think is least controversial and say that treb is underutilized by most people in the game right now. It is extremely niche but if you are coming off of re-spawn and there is an intense team-fight going on taking a few seconds to lob some boulders can turn the tides of a rally war much more quickly than running all the way over to the fight. While this is situational it is almost never done so I say it is underutilized, can agree that camping treb for prolonged periods is bad.

    It can work through the sheer element of surprise, but once people are aware even in teamfights they will either dodge or move out of the circle. So I'd say in 99% of all imaginable situations it's a terrible idea.

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
    The Smiths about mAT return and PvP content

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I think treb is fine to hop on for a few secs to waste some dodges/ cds. a few seconds doing this is likely to be more valuable then a getting somewhere a few seconds faster, depending on the situation ofc.

    Especially if it’s a mobile character like a thief, ranger or mes doing so, you can lob some boulders and then be at the team fight quickly to help.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    this should be stickied tho. great list.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

    stickied to my list of usefull things to know! :)

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    What about calling a target to allow a plus 1 teammate, like a rev or thief, to key 'assist target' and get the LoS teleport burst off. I feel like this never gets brought up in any pvp guides.

  • I'll be careful about categorizing "Fight on points" and "Don't plus me" as misconceptions only.
    While these principles should not be followed blindly in all situations, I see them being reminded more often in situations when they make sense rather than when they don't.
    Myself, I will use the "Fight on points" when the team is being trolled by the enemy team into a team fight in the middle of nowhere when they have 2 or 3 points capped, it happens maybe not in Plat but i see it regularly in gold division.
    I use "Don't plus me" when I am pushing far to decap, get into a 1v1 eventually and remove some pressure on the other nodes.

  • dronte.3416dronte.3416 Member ✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I would add:

    "I died 1vX, therefore I am doing my job, and my team sucks for not taking rest of map"

    What this demonstrates is a complete failure to understand the concept of a "snowball". The reason you are outnumbered is probably because your team just got beaten somewhere else on the map, and then the enemy team had free players to send over and plus you. Your team didn't lose with a numbers advantage, they probably lost with even numbers, or even a numbers dis-advantage, and then that is being carried over on to you. You weren't fighting 1vX for the entire time, just the 10 seconds before you died. Your team aren't afk on mid while you fight valiantly 1v3, they're all dead respawning.

    Its on you to recognise that your team just got beaten elsewhere, and that therefore you will probably become outnumbered, and therefore need to back off and regroup. 99% of the time, if you die, there's something you could have done to not die, you just didn't recognise it quickly enough.

    Obviously if you've been fighting 1v2 for 5+ minutes, your team really should be able to take advantage of that. But 99% of the time I see this being said, the person saying it was only fighting outnumbered for maybe 20-30 seconds, which is nowhere near time for your team to take advantage of, especially if they're coming off respawns.

    This is also very true. Some people can't really differentiate between being farmed the whole game by 2 people and actually holding up 2 or 3 enemy players.

    I see players pushing far or mid just to die alone against 2 or 3 after like 20-30 seconds then spamming the teamchat about how the team is useless.

    At the same time it's very situational how long of keeping 2 people busy is "useful". You really don't need to 1v2 for 5+ minutes to make it useful.

  • BlackTruth.6813BlackTruth.6813 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 30, 2019

    There's also "1v1s" don't matter.

    Like okay, if you're always calling your team mate for help, your other team mates are going to be outnumbered. if you don't kill the guy in time.

    That's why 1v1 builds that have sustain are ACTUALLY impactful in conquest (soulbeast, spellbreaker, etc) because matching numbers matter. And then you get morons who say "it's a team game" everytime they fail horribly or just don't know what conquest common sense is because they need someone to hold their hand because bad players.

    Or they're like plussing and can't kill within a couple of seconds and ends up making the other 3 people outnumbered. Pretty annoying, can't ever get rid of those people no matter what you do.

  • DoomNexus.5324DoomNexus.5324 Member ✭✭✭

    @Falan.1839 said:
    When playing ranked as a high tier player, who also competes with and against top teams in ATs, often you will realize mistakes in ranked. Some of these are simply mechanical shortcomings, non-viable builds (...)

    I want to add two points I have experienced with this.
    First of all: Solo Q isn't an AT. In tournaments you have premade teams and especially the teams in the finals often know each other and can synergize much much better than any random team in Solo Q. This enables some very different approaches and decision making which wouldn't be a good idea for solo-Q.

    Second (because it affected me a lot in the past and sometimes still is): Don't automatically assume a player is bad or the match is unwinnable because someone plays a non-meta build. I've been playing non-meta builds for quite a while and actually solo-Q'd my way up from silver 1 to plat 2 with a build everybody said was not viable. And there are quite a few ppl in the leaderboard even who don't play builds that are considered meta.
    Game and map knowledge such as terrain abuse, LoS-ing, knowing your opponents rotations and tool kit, rotations and decision making in general are huge factors. Also actually being able to play your build is more important than the build itself imo as long as it's not countered by the enemy comp or something like that.
    My most extreme experience with this was on Foefire where we had a lead of about 350:200 without any sign of the enemy turning it. All of a sudden someone then notices my off-meta build, just afk camps at the base, flames me for my build and claims that we can't win with me in the team. Well guess what? We indeed lost after that.

    @Falan.1839 said:
    1) “Don’t push far” **
    **2) “Thief close”

    This quote brings me to another point regarding thief: It annoys me how many ppl constantly roam to far with a thief in the team and then blaming the thief for his rotations. Most people somehow don't realize that by roaming to far they pull enemies to the node which actively prevents the thief from decapping. Most of the time them roaming off results in a loss in mid because they leave the team outnumbered and they can then start an uneven fight on far as well (like 2 ppl engaging into the off-roamed guy). Because of point 9 in the list the match usually then continues with just losing outnumbered fights since the enemy team snowballs which renders the thief completely useless in this situation since he can't decap with at least one guy camping on a node while also not being able to +1 any fight because they aren't even to begin with.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Falan.1839 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    Good list, but I'm going to be controversial about the one that you think is least controversial and say that treb is underutilized by most people in the game right now. It is extremely niche but if you are coming off of re-spawn and there is an intense team-fight going on taking a few seconds to lob some boulders can turn the tides of a rally war much more quickly than running all the way over to the fight. While this is situational it is almost never done so I say it is underutilized, can agree that camping treb for prolonged periods is bad.

    It can work through the sheer element of surprise, but once people are aware even in teamfights they will either dodge or move out of the circle. So I'd say in 99% of all imaginable situations it's a terrible idea.

    A good answer. Downed bodies are notorious for their dodging ability.

  • FyzE.3472FyzE.3472 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    What about calling a target to allow a plus 1 teammate, like a rev or thief, to key 'assist target' and get the LoS teleport burst off. I feel like this never gets brought up in any pvp guides.

    I think calling targets is always a right thing to do. But usually it's a flip of a coin whether your team uses the target (or even focuses it) or not. May be some people stopped doing that because the targets were ignored too many times.

  • we need beasts !

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Falan.1839 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    Good list, but I'm going to be controversial about the one that you think is least controversial and say that treb is underutilized by most people in the game right now. It is extremely niche but if you are coming off of re-spawn and there is an intense team-fight going on taking a few seconds to lob some boulders can turn the tides of a rally war much more quickly than running all the way over to the fight. While this is situational it is almost never done so I say it is underutilized, can agree that camping treb for prolonged periods is bad.

    It can work through the sheer element of surprise, but once people are aware even in teamfights they will either dodge or move out of the circle. So I'd say in 99% of all imaginable situations it's a terrible idea.

    A good answer. Downed bodies are notorious for their dodging ability.

    Yeah and obviously there is a burning need to treb them instead of stomping/cleaving which is actually faster and allows you to still participate in the fight afterwards. I'm slightly amazed that the point with treb is the most contentious here. I have over 10.000 games played and the ranked ones were at a level which is today ~1650-1840 Rating (EU) and I don't think I can recall a single game where treb actually contributed something useful to a fight.

    Also I am aware that there MIGHT be very special situations where some of these ideas are actually a good idea (as for example dying on node when you only need to bunker 5 more points), however in ~90%+ of the situations the advice is bad and it is mostly these situations that I keep reading those words of wisodm in, and that's why I have included them. Obviously for example if 5 people are pushing your lord while you own all 3 nodes "All def Lord" is actually a very good idea, but it just rarely ever happens that way in Qs. This goes for several points.

    So I am not going to answer comments saying there MIGHT be very few hypothethical situations where the listed orders actually make sense.

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
    The Smiths about mAT return and PvP content

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭

    @alwswannafly.3428 said:
    we need beasts !

    I was thinking about that one, but since the meta has become so fastpaced (in teamfights) and snowbally that picking the beasts after wiping the enemy in teamfight is actually fairly common and done by high level players I chose not to include it. Obviously timing is everything and prioritizing beasts over the actual fights is still awful, but it felt hard to generalize it, so I left it out.

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
    The Smiths about mAT return and PvP content

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    sad to see that even though pointed out by high ranked player, the least controversial one: the treb, people reply with it being useful

    as for 2) in gold games opening splits are pretty much exclusively 1-4 so if a thief goes close im totally fine with that.
    mid fights is over before any rotation has taken place, and i'd rather not have a thief “Fight on Points” at the opening fight in mid.

    10) happens quite often in plat+ games, i've selfrezzed numerous times and also failed to secure kills. Bleeding out is always good but a requirement is map awareness. The other day i was dueling top player, very focused on it and killed him off node. Me being all smart and stuff capping the node while letting him bleed out only to get him rezzed by a random mesmer (so don't just focus on signet, blood rez, gyro, etc either). In the end i didn't cap the node at all and has to give up completely.

    the one that bugs me the most is the "1vx and dies" usually within 10 seconds and goes berserk in team chat

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Falan.1839 said:

    Yeah and obviously there is a burning need to treb them instead of stomping/cleaving which is actually faster and allows you to still participate in the fight afterwards. I'm slightly amazed that the point with treb is the most contentious here. I have over 10.000 games played and the ranked ones were at a level which is today ~1650-1840 Rating (EU) and I don't think I can recall a single game where treb actually contributed something useful to a fight.

    Also I am aware that there MIGHT be very special situations where some of these ideas are actually a good idea (as for example dying on node when you only need to bunker 5 more points), however in ~90%+ of the situations the advice is bad and it is mostly these situations that I keep reading those words of wisodm in, and that's why I have included them. Obviously for example if 5 people are pushing your lord while you own all 3 nodes "All def Lord" is actually a very good idea, but it just rarely ever happens that way in Qs. This goes for several points.

    So I am not going to answer comments saying there MIGHT be very few hypothethical situations where the listed orders actually make sense.

    Don't be so serious. You did not need to respond in the first place, I was just poking fun at you.

    Anyway, the comment I was responding to completely ignored @ArthurDent.9538 's point, which was about a niche situation where you are coming out of respawn, and there's a downstate race on the mid node. As you can't get there on time for cleave or stomping, your only option to participate in that downrace AT ALL is to treb it once or twice. Like said, it's very rare.

    Rule 11. There are niche exceptions to almost every one of these rules.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A good list. Obviously a big issue with teams in general is the inability to communicate. People don’t trust one another and when things go poorly they rarely want to admit the other team may be better than them/their team.

    I’ll comment on the 1vX. If you are 1vX voluntarily then you shouldn’t die or rarely do so. You need to be oriented around a specific objective besides holding off multiples. Don’t assume their team is 2v1ing you because they are bad. If they can afford to fight you 2v1 your team is likely getting snowballed elsewhere.

    Once, I took a 1v2 (carefully) to hold them at far just long enough for my team to respawn/take mid. I wasn’t going to decap or to die bravely. As soon as I could I left the 1vX to help my team at mid kill a few more then I dropped back to far to decap.

    Often, I’ve kept an eye on far and watched them take it. As soon as they are heading back to mid fight I stealth up and use my mobility to reach far. They hold the node for a few seconds.

    The biggest problems people have are giving up important nodes without a fight and not knowing when to give up on a node.

    That and not playing a bunker and yet doing no damage.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Balsa.3951Balsa.3951 Member ✭✭✭

    I think the truth is having a class with great mobility and be able to burst enemies down and be able to disengage is the key most of the time. That allows u to help out where ever the action is.

    Sadly not all classes can do that.

  • Balsa.3951Balsa.3951 Member ✭✭✭

    Can u do a class or role specific guide ?

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭

    Not calling targets. 90% of the population don't call targets. And I think most of them might not even understand how/who/what to target.

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭

    @Falan.1839 said:
    2)
    “Thief close”

    One of my personal favourites. I am still at loss about where this originated, but I keep reading it. I suspect it might have to something with trollish thief builds like Staff DD or Dagger/Dagger Condi CD being common in lower tiers. However, most thief builds viable in high tier (almost exclusively SD core as of the last patch) are notoriously awful duelists and should not be sent into 1v1s. They can take a few matchups (Mes, Rev, Mirror Matchup), but are absolutely awful in others (Holo, Scrapper, Warriors and Rangers in all their forms). The strength of Thief is in rotations, resulting in either +1s for quick kills or decaps. Sending it to cap close and risking it to be drawn into a 1v1 sacrifices this strength. Either the thief will fight a bad 1v1 and possibly lose, or be smart enough to disengage and create a number advantage in mid. However, even in that case close will be instantly lost, and that is not a desirable outcome whatsoever.

    This is likely from DrD D/P thieves that can reach close and cap it far faster than any other class (although S/D isn't that far behind). If the other team doesn't push close, then this is a decent advantage on your team since the thief can cap home before the other team and rotate to either +1 a small fight around mid or sneak behind and decap far.

    Of course...if the other team pushes close, the thief might as well just give it to them. This, along with DrD D/P now being dead is likely why you don't want to use this strat.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019

    I think there are a couple ways to interpret fight on point. one is the scenario you described. another is when people team fight off point for no reason. obviously winning that fight would be good, but not being in that fight in the first place would be better. especially when they have 2 caps. lastly, is when people get pressured, try to kite, and end up dying off point with no one supporting them. its great if when you're kiting people actually support you, but that's rare in lower divisions.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • tacoclaw.8251tacoclaw.8251 Member ✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019

    10,000 games, wow. At 8 minutes a game that comes to almost 60 full days of gw2 pvp. I think you are not alone with this time commitment, but I sure do understand now why it is so hard for a new player when mixed in a game with players like you. I've been studying this pvp game on my down time trying to get competent, but posts like that depress me. I don't care about the bad players I am teamed with, it's being teamed against players like you that have pushed me away.

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019

    Most common Error in conquest pvp.
    **No problem ....Instead of fighting... I'll REZ YOU WHILE 4 v 1 KEEP'S BASHING on ME. **

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    *Necro rushed onto point, instantly gets focused and dies

    "FiGhT OnE PoInTs GuYs"

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Serenity.6304Serenity.6304 Member ✭✭

    @Eurantien.4632 said:
    Not calling targets. 90% of the population don't call targets. And I think most of them might not even understand how/who/what to target

    Could you pls share your preference in targetting? Although I am quite experienced with 6k games and all seasons in p1 and p2, I am feeling quite unsure about the „right“ targets...

    I would always target fb first, then scourge ofc, but what then? What would you guys recommend?

    ~ Miyu Chan / Fyora ♥

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭

    in the silver tier we also have the top stats seekers, they play in a way to get top stats, even if this means playing almost the worst as possible teamwise, like pushing far non stop. And when the game is lost they are sure that they've done their jobs and you're just a silly noob without a top stats.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 3, 2019

    @Serenity.6304 said:

    @Eurantien.4632 said:
    Not calling targets. 90% of the population don't call targets. And I think most of them might not even understand how/who/what to target

    Could you pls share your preference in targetting? Although I am quite experienced with 6k games and all seasons in p1 and p2, I am feeling quite unsure about the „right“ targets...

    I would always target fb first, then scourge ofc, but what then? What would you guys recommend?

    I know you didn't ask me, but I do feel like the biggest reason my teams fail is bad priority targeting. My personal order goes

    Berserkers post rework > Fresh Air Eles > Necromancers of any variety > Glint+Shiro Rev > Power GS Mesmer > Support Classes like Firebrand > Everything else.

    It's kind of a cumulative decision that takes into account: How threatening are they? How easy are they to kill? For example a Holosmith isn't a bad priority target and can rip your team to shreds in a team fight, but you also have to account for the fact that as soon as they're in danger they will Elixir S for invulnerability and Toss Elixir S for 6 seconds of stealth. A necromancer of any variety is more vulnerable to getting focused.

    I'd target the scourge over the firebrand 90% of the time. Like maybe if I know the Firebrand is hot garbage and will instantly melt I'll focus them over the necro, but usually the necromancer comes first. Yeah if you target the scourge that leaves the Firebrand more open to heal the Scourge, but that's a preferable situation to leaving the scourge open to free cast on the team which is a far worse situation.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019

    I agree with the poster over me, that is about the right order, possibly with Power Mes over Rev. Deadeye has a place in the upper echelons aswell, especially now that its stealth is nerfed. The same goes for Zerk Sic Em Soulbeasts. Generally anything squishy with high dps. Obviously you need some flexibility depending on which builds you face and how the players position themselves, so this is a rough order but nothing you should stick to religiously. Even a Holo or a Spb can be a good first target when he's out of position and split from his team. Focusing FB can work, but usually it's smarter to go for the Necro first, since not only it's less tanky but you also negate its damage/denial potential by that if he gets hardpressured/CCd. The only problem with not focussing FB is the Signet of Mercy, preferably try to counter it via either interruppting (if no stab or you can either corrupt/rip or have a thief steal it) or by launching the downed corpse out of its radius (Shiro Elite, Overcharged Shot, Banish, Prime Light Beam etc.).

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
    The Smiths about mAT return and PvP content

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In general, targeting priority is a huge decider in games.

    Basically my order:
    1. Target any player who gives sustain to otherwise glass players who are using that sustain to avoid dying when focused. FB comes to mind. Depending it may make sense to target them second if you can CC them long enough to kill a target under #2.
    2. Target any player who is squishy and a threat for their damage to the team. DPS Thieves, Revs, Rangers, Ele, etc.
    3. Any brawler who would sustain in 1v1 and does moderate damage but dies in team fights easily enough.
    4. Any bunker who isn’t also granting team mates sustain.
    5. Any player who is somehow not doing damage or sustaining anyone and seems to die without being focused, assuming they are still alive at this point.

    Alternative target:

    • After a target is downed the player most likely or able to revive the downed, unless a DPS class presents a larger threat than a revive.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • GlockBoy.2134GlockBoy.2134 Member ✭✭

    @tacoclaw.8251 said:
    10,000 games, wow. At 8 minutes a game that comes to almost 60 full days of gw2 pvp. I think you are not alone with this time commitment, but I sure do understand now why it is so hard for a new player when mixed in a game with players like you. I've been studying this pvp game on my down time trying to get competent, but posts like that depress me. I don't care about the bad players I am teamed with, it's being teamed against players like you that have pushed me away.

    Well this seems like a weak excuse for an argument. You are pushed away because someone played more hours than you? How will you ever be new to any type of content then? Someone will have always played an enormous amount more than you...

    Learn the strategies.

    I'm not PC bro

  • Serenity.6304Serenity.6304 Member ✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019

    Thank you all for the targeting recommendations, there is really always sth. more to learn in PvP :)

    ~ Miyu Chan / Fyora ♥

  • Serenity.6304Serenity.6304 Member ✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019

    I have another point for the list similar to "All to Tranq": All to Skyhammer. I won so many games by fighting over skyhammer while we had 2 or 3 points capped. There was always one of our team at skyhammer so that the enemy team couldn't finish getting it, and whilst the fight was going on for minutes,the points were ticking in our favor.
    It is the same problem with the bell, but since the bell gives more points every time you ring it, it might be important to fight over it, it depends.

    Another point is "Hold the node at all costs", a "strategy" I often see. One player running or not disengaging into 2 or 3 of the enemy team coming to our node. Maybe 5 seconds and he's dead (so obviously not a scrapper :D). The reason is always the same: We had the node and that players wanted to keep it a few seconds longer. What is in no proportion to the 5 points for the enemy team, the 15 sec respawn time and meanwhile being one player less; allowing snowbally matches.

    ~ Miyu Chan / Fyora ♥

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭

    Targeting also depends on positioning and time to kill. If the high dps is out of position or in a vulnerable spot but maybe it's not super high on the priority list normally? Well it is now.

    In that light, some things are super hard to kill if they know they're targeted which makes rev a bad initial target. Although it is sometimes really easy to kill if it swaps to Shiro and is out of position.

    Personally, due to time to kill in solo queue games I prefer this kill order:
    Necro if it's alone or outnumbered because no escape.
    Fresh air ele
    DPS ranger, low time to kill, bad at counterpressure.
    Deadeye
    Rev, away from node/out of position.
    This is because you can easily kill these things away from their teammates who are gonna be hanging out around node and can't keep up (like fb and scourge) this is also why it's important to fight off node and save your mates/get kills first.
    Necro. Necro can have a high time to kill when supported or blood. But if you get a kill this jumps to spot number 1 as it's outnumbered and can't escape.
    Power mesmer. Out of cds in a long fight. If out of position or chrono but still glass move it above necro depending on situation and necro can be kited.
    Berserker war. They're here because easy to kill but also easy to kite and ignore. So kill others first and kite.
    Dps guard
    Firebrand: gotta kill him eventually
    Rev/Holo you're snowballing now
    Power mes
    Spellbreaker depending on CDs
    Scrapper depending on CDs
    Mesmer - if not one shot/power
    Soulbeast
    Weaver

    These are all very fluid and if something has low cds and your recognize it sometimes its worth to hard swap and kitten the list. This can be true after a Firebrand gets rez and takes some cleave for example. Or sometimes you know you can kill something or someone really easy with your build. That could be a huge impact. Go ahead and do that.

    This is for queue...

    For team play, positioning and cds factor in, but coordinating dmg is more important and the list becomes more rigid and also more fluid in response to this. And that's a whole other story.

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019

    Targeting is also everyone's responsibility. If I'm a dps I'm going to target a dps at the start to kill them/not get killed by them. If I'm dps and I'm +ing into a 4v4 or something I'm gonna target on my kill order if there is no target. If you're in that fight and know someone has low cds or something target that person so I know who to kill. There should be a target up in every fight to communicate these things.

    That being said, don't just go ham on a target. Remember you can peel for teammates and you can use soft or hard cc on things that aren't your target. For power Ranger for example it's often best to pew pew someone but then knock back someone else. It creates a moment of + for your team, their teammate can't help, and you don't knock them out of dmg

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭

    @tacoclaw.8251 said:
    10,000 games, wow. At 8 minutes a game that comes to almost 60 full days of gw2 pvp. I think you are not alone with this time commitment, but I sure do understand now why it is so hard for a new player when mixed in a game with players like you. I've been studying this pvp game on my down time trying to get competent, but posts like that depress me. I don't care about the bad players I am teamed with, it's being teamed against players like you that have pushed me away.

    I've checked, it's actually over 12.000. To put things in perspective, I play this game since 2012 and haven't played much else since, perhaps a handful of games with ~50-100 hours playitme, but nothings that lasted longer than a few weeks.

    However, the meta changes quite frequently and my games from 5 years back are very unlikely to help me nowadays, unless it's Jebro's core tournament. I'd say it's possible to catch up with the veterans on 98% of the relevant aspects of this game (possibly excluding a few heritage builds that are extremely niche today) in a few months of dedicated playtime and actually many people have done so.

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
    The Smiths about mAT return and PvP content

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭

    @Falan.1839 said:

    @tacoclaw.8251 said:
    10,000 games, wow. At 8 minutes a game that comes to almost 60 full days of gw2 pvp. I think you are not alone with this time commitment, but I sure do understand now why it is so hard for a new player when mixed in a game with players like you. I've been studying this pvp game on my down time trying to get competent, but posts like that depress me. I don't care about the bad players I am teamed with, it's being teamed against players like you that have pushed me away.

    I've checked, it's actually over 12.000. To put things in perspective, I play this game since 2012 and haven't played much else since, perhaps a handful of games with ~50-100 hours playitme, but nothings that lasted longer than a few weeks.

    However, the meta changes quite frequently and my games from 5 years back are very unlikely to help me nowadays, unless it's Jebro's core tournament. I'd say it's possible to catch up with the veterans on 98% of the relevant aspects of this game (possibly excluding a few heritage builds that are extremely niche today) in a few months of dedicated playtime and actually many people have done so.

    Second this. I won't say I am quite as good as a "veteran" just made it to plat 1 last season and have been consistently staying there. I am not dying to "veterans" in seconds n can actually win some of my 1v1s.

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 3, 2019

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    in the silver tier we also have the top stats seekers, they play in a way to get top stats, even if this means playing almost the worst as possible teamwise, like pushing far non stop. And when the game is lost they are sure that they've done their jobs and you're just a silly noob without a top stats.

    If they have top stat it's like they contributed something you did not. Think about it. If the game is based on capping nodes, offense and defense means they contributed to those points. The game is also based on kills. So doing dmg and kills and they have top stats it means they added to this points. So yes stats absolutely mean they have done their job whether you like it or not.

    There is nothing wrong with pushing far non stop if you are a duelist. That's your job.

    I went from silver 2 to plat1. And i can honestly say. When I ve done things correctly I had top stats. These numbers totally break down how you contribute. And to go up you need to think of how to improve those.

  • tacoclaw.8251tacoclaw.8251 Member ✭✭

    Any tips on how a player with 275 games can compete against a premade of 12,000+ game experienced players would be much appreciated. Because right now it feels like I'm either along for the ride, or the mark.

  • torben.1532torben.1532 Member ✭✭

    @tacoclaw.8251
    All I can say is spam games, duel friends and get better at your class + rotational understanding (means know when to move where)
    It‘s time consuming but it’s the only way to learn a game mode as complex as conquest

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    in the silver tier we also have the top stats seekers, they play in a way to get top stats, even if this means playing almost the worst as possible teamwise, like pushing far non stop. And when the game is lost they are sure that they've done their jobs and you're just a silly noob without a top stats.

    If they have top stat it's like they contributed something you did not. Think about it. If the game is based on capping nodes, offense and defense means they contributed to those points. The game is also based on kills. So doing dmg and kills and they have top stats it means they added to this points. So yes stats absolutely mean they have done their job whether you like it or not.

    There is nothing wrong with pushing far non stop if you are a duelist. That's your job.

    I went from silver 2 to plat1. And i can honestly say. When I ve done things correctly I had top stats. These numbers totally break down how you contribute. And to go up you need to think of how to improve those.

    You can consistently get top stats while making the worst decicion possible, i wosh i had my old replays to showcase how bad it can be. Running far with my ele losing duels while I dont even manage to fully cap the node still getting top stats offense and healing everygame while the real impact in the game was 0. I also see deadeyes ignoring the sides captured and going mid to farm kills, ans still getting top stats. That's why I say top stats are misleading. I think it would be better if there're no top stats in the scoreboard.

  • McPero.3287McPero.3287 Member ✭✭✭

    I think idea behind thief close is that since he has such high mobility he can cap close and join a fight mid, problem is if he gets contested by a duelist he will lose the point.
    I also believe that no matter the team composition you have to play whole map (3 nodes) just you need to know when to go where. Even when you play 'side nodes' you should be paying attention to mid.

    Don't use treb please, thank you.

  • Miles Smiles.8951Miles Smiles.8951 Member ✭✭✭

    the 3rd one (fight on points) wins them all in my book. legit most triggering when a team mate watches you die 2 meters away from node cuz he's "holding the cap" and thinks he's smart and you're dumb.

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2019

    @Khalisto.5780 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    in the silver tier we also have the top stats seekers, they play in a way to get top stats, even if this means playing almost the worst as possible teamwise, like pushing far non stop. And when the game is lost they are sure that they've done their jobs and you're just a silly noob without a top stats.

    If they have top stat it's like they contributed something you did not. Think about it. If the game is based on capping nodes, offense and defense means they contributed to those points. The game is also based on kills. So doing dmg and kills and they have top stats it means they added to this points. So yes stats absolutely mean they have done their job whether you like it or not.

    There is nothing wrong with pushing far non stop if you are a duelist. That's your job.

    I went from silver 2 to plat1. And i can honestly say. When I ve done things correctly I had top stats. These numbers totally break down how you contribute. And to go up you need to think of how to improve those.

    You can consistently get top stats while making the worst decicion possible, i wosh i had my old replays to showcase how bad it can be. Running far with my ele losing duels while I dont even manage to fully cap the node still getting top stats offense and healing everygame while the real impact in the game was 0. I also see deadeyes ignoring the sides captured and going mid to farm kills, ans still getting top stats. That's why I say top stats are misleading. I think it would be better if there're no top stats in the scoreboard.

    One does not equal the other. Sure maybe u went far and lost. U didn't full cap it. But maybe your team is just as bad. N didn't contribute at all. If u had best offense and didn't full cap that means none of ur team was capping. I don't see why that's misleading.

    You only get offense from standing on and contesting it. Stand on a node some one already owns and not changing it to yours doesn't give you offense points.

  • Erzian.5218Erzian.5218 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2019
    1. if you win, it is because you alone have successfully carried your team to victory as you are the best player in every match or at least in your team. Everyone else just cannot compete with your incredible skill.
    2. if you lose, it is only because of your teammates are bad or win-trading. It is never because of the build you brought, team compositions or your own game play.
    3. when you are 1v2 and your team still loses, there is nothing you could have done differently and it’s completely unacceptable that the best player of the opposing team might be capable to beat or stall 2 of the weaker players in your team too.
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