WvW commanders/guilds kicking non-meta classes.

[BadMed.3846]

In a zerg, even a Skritt would be viable. Ranger can offer a lot more.

[Fremtid.3528]

Rangers roam, that's how they "contribute" to wvw, they cap, they defend (mostly small objectives), and they make sure your keeps are full (if you can be assed but that's what I do if my server isn't being jerks) if you wanna be with the zerg, cause, idk you need keep kappa or you feel the zerg needs hand on the borderland you're on defending a keep, then you need to be outside it, you literally serve no purpose in the main zerg. Like everyone says, you leech boons. You don't need certain boons. Some servers have formed ranged squads- I've heard rumor of a certain German server having a 5-6 soulbeast squad (running with the main zerg) and a healer druid and they all target the same foe, pew it down and its game over for them. But most servers haven't become that advanced in that way of thinking yet and seen the light as to how this could maybe be a brilliant tactic that these Germans have adapted, mostly because everyone hates rangers, they hate them, they hate playing with them, and they hate playing against them. Anything else is entitled, hand holding crap. Besides, if you become any good at what you do, sometimes you can get more experience as a roamer than the zerg (there's no denying zergs get more experience most of the time because of karma train and the amount of keeps they cap, depending on which boosters I have I get half a level for a keep, I probably could even get more) but sometimes the amount of denial of capping they get really hampers xp. In the end, I think it can even out. And roamers cap keeps too, I capped a keep with four last night.

[Seilies.1759]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:A good player can make just about anything work to an acceptable level, but meta classes and builds have the best output in relation to player skill.I'm saying that i'll take anyone, regardless of class, if they're performing acceptably.@ArchonWing said:I'd take a new player running a meta build poorly over a stubborn older player that dies on contact on some silly build. =pI'm quoting you together since your replies are two sides of a coin.

Sure, a more experienced player may generally do well on anything but also will - in a squad - perform better or have better output on a class fit for the squad, as Risen says. And new player may also do better on a build fit for a squad than an old player who randomly snowflakes (new-old is a better paradigm than in/experienced in that regard), as Archon said.

However, I'm not really talking about that. I'm more so referring to how, let's say players from a "good" GvG guild, if/when they play with a pickup squad. Some may enter into the group and help carry that group. Easily as common however is that they will be the people who may piece together something like a quad-DD/support party and go wreak absolute havoc on an opposing squad if you have two middle-ground tags hesitantly manoeuvering pirateships.

Adding parties like that to a meta base can be much stronger than an all-meta squad, it is just that they have much higher skill floors both in terms of classes/roles and organisation. Players who are inexperienced but show up on such classes will not be able to function in such parties for any foreseeable future whereas they can step into a meta squad on a meta class and learn the game mode from there while contributing fundamentally from the get-go.

That is also why meta is meta and not because experienced players would somehow do better on the meta classes. In fact, the argument is rather that some builds do not only have higher skill floors but also higher skill roofs. If you have some very good players they may actually contribute more to a squad comming on such non-meta builds than comming on five more meta builds, both because they can punch above the roof of the meta build but also because they can give their commander a tool that the other commander does not have - a tool more valuable than another five players on meta builds.

Ed.

Instead of trying to explain it, have a look at some examples of what I'm trying to show.

Let's take Lays as an example. They have been one of the best guilds in Europe for the past few years.

They have some good examples of DD gameplay. DD is not meta.

Then you may think, it is not scaling up to zerg/blob fights. Yet, look at their damage meter here.

Go back a few years and look at the 2016 tournament final. Do you see the Druid in the party?

Druids may have take some swings since then but what they do is still fundamentally the same. It is just the people in general have not seen how you can potentially adapt and scale it up to full squad scale. That doesn't mean that there isn't potential in it to use in various ways.

 

no offense dud but you are pretty dumb. lays plays gvg where staff dd has been meta for a pretty long time because it can spike damage and provide 0 cd smoke field for stealth blasting. If you want to stealth blast mapblobs then sure its meta, otherwise your example is just straight up nonsense. (also im on mobile so not entirely sure i tagged the correct guy, if not then my bad)

[Seilies.1759]

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:Ranger in a zerg is just wasting your time, u gonna be killed before others, and, being single target class u wont get much kill scores no matter how good the zerg are.

Weird, as boonbeast I outsurvive everyone except Firebrands and Scrappers, and in fact I outsurvive them too because I can get away.

I'm not single target and get plenty of kills in the backline and because I got away I continue to scout the enemy zerg while all those meta pukes run back.

Statements that ranger can't bring what meta classes do to the blob are pretty accurate, but some of this nonsense....

come on, the cry about "snif commander dont invite-me" come almost from ppl that just wanna pew pew with longbow. if he were someone with superior skill of the class, he would not be in such a cry.

There is a viable slb zerg build, it's just very unintuitive. We have two that run with us regularly and out damage scourges

Is that in open field fights or on

dps golems

tower/keep lords?

(Seriously though, in open field fights if your group isn't coordinated then the scourge DPS will indeed be lower so it is difficult to take your anecdote as good evidence.)

As is the anecdote that by simply logging on a meta class someone automatically got more useful.

It doesn't require anecdotes to see that a dps scourge with shades up can hit 10 targets versus a ranger's skills doing damage to only 5. That's just understanding game mechanics (and why druids with their 10 target spirits are more useful in pve raids over support scourges).

And it doesn't take much imagination to see that someone that doesn't know how to use a dps scourge is worthless.

In other words, a player who would also be worthless on every other class because they don't take the time to learn and improve whatever class they are playing. No reason to let them into a squad on ranger either.

No, in other words "get on a meta class or else" just demonstrates the narrow, boring, repetitive view of the meta mentality.

As I've said, the meta undoubtedly serves its purpose and non meta undoubtedly are suboptimal in a one to one comparison. However, that comparison does not take a players gear or ability into account. Commanders should command however they like, no doubt. Likewise, players should play how they like.

It is my opinion that if a commander needs a full 50 meta classes to get a job done, well.... Further, if they can't make use of players who are proficient with non meta classes to perform non blob tasks and/or refuse them unused spots simply on the premise of not being a meta class then they're narrow, boring, and repetitive.

You totally got the point, you play however the hell you want, but the commander command however he wants. And apperently he want to command without rangers being in the squad. So if you decide to stay on ranger, you can also stay out of the squad.

[Faaris.8013]

I only play Thief, and I'm getting kicked from squads all the time. Here's my opinion:

I understand that in competitive environments, usefulness, gear and skill matter a lot. I wouldn't show up at any raid, fractal or group in WvW without proper gear and skill, and I expect others to do the same. I have kicked people from fractal parties before because of performance issues. If you aren't up to the task, don't waste other peoples' time. And I'm not even disgruntled when I get kicked from a squad in WvW for good reason. Thief is not a good class for zerging, fact. If you have a Firebrand waiting to join the team, it's better for the group and the whole battle.

However, I also see people kicking thieves and rangers in a squad that's not full. It's not even the commanders themselves but people they gave the right to kick others. It happens after a zerg clash with another server where things didn't go well. Squad might have 46 members, 7 thieves/rangers. The thieves and rangers are usually in group 1, the "mixed trash" maybe ^^ So some people look for a reason for failing and it's easy to blame the non-zerg-classes. So they kick the 7 players from the squad. Now they are 39 people in the squad, because there are simply not more players available. Are they better off than before?

What I can see happening then is the thieves and rangers staying in the rear. It's simple really, we have a hard time surviving without boons and heals in the middle of the zerg, like anybody else. The squad then fights the same enemy blob as before, but with less people. The kicking harmed the team because there were no better replacements. Those who don't look into the mirror for reasons why the battle was lost can still feel better now. Requesting to kick thieves and rangers apparently is some form of virtue signalling. It's unreasonable in many cases. I even told a commander in a full squad to just kick me if a spellbreaker of FB is ready to join. I understand the mechanics and don't want to be the reason for failure. However, if your squad is not full, you are hurting it by kicking any player that deals damage. And we do deal damage, and we have a decent kill/death ratio, much better then most zerg class players I see around.

If you are a good player with proper gear and play thief/ranger, you get kicked from a squad. If you switched to FB with bad gear and no idea how to play, you are welcome in the very same squad. There's a lot of bad judgement going on, because it's much easier to just blame others than finding the real issue. In raids and fractals, you always get a full party, that is different. Most of the time, squads in WvW are not filled, and having 7 thieves/rangers in a squad of 46 people is better than having 39 people with zerg classes.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Faaris.8013" said:I only play Thief, and I'm getting kicked from squads all the time. Here's my opinion:

I understand that in competitive environments, usefulness, gear and skill matter a lot. I wouldn't show up at any raid, fractal or group in WvW without proper gear and skill, and I expect others to do the same. I have kicked people from fractal parties before because of performance issues. If you aren't up to the task, don't waste other peoples' time. And I'm not even disgruntled when I get kicked from a squad in WvW for good reason. Thief is not a good class for zerging, fact. If you have a Firebrand waiting to join the team, it's better for the group and the whole battle.

However, I also see people kicking thieves and rangers in a squad that's not full. It's not even the commanders themselves but people they gave the right to kick others. It happens after a zerg clash with another server where things didn't go well. Squad might have 46 members, 7 thieves/rangers. The thieves and rangers are usually in group 1, the "mixed trash" maybe ^^ So some people look for a reason for failing and it's easy to blame the non-zerg-classes. So they kick the 7 players from the squad. Now they are 39 people in the squad, because there are simply not more players available. Are they better off than before?

What I can see happening then is the thieves and rangers staying in the rear. It's simple really, we have a hard time surviving without boons and heals in the middle of the zerg, like anybody else. The squad then fights the same enemy blob as before, but with less people. The kicking harmed the team because there were no better replacements. Those who don't look into the mirror for reasons why the battle was lost can still feel better now. Requesting to kick thieves and rangers apparently is some form of virtue signalling. It's unreasonable in many cases. I even told a commander in a full squad to just kick me if a spellbreaker of FB is ready to join. I understand the mechanics and don't want to be the reason for failure. However, if your squad is not full, you are hurting it by kicking any player that deals damage. And we do deal damage, and we have a decent kill/death ratio, much better then most zerg class players I see around.

If you are a good player with proper gear and play thief/ranger, you get kicked from a squad. If you switched to FB with bad gear and no idea how to play, you are welcome in the very same squad. There's a lot of bad judgement going on, because it's much easier to just blame others than finding the real issue. In raids and fractals, you always get a full party, that is different. Most of the time, squads in WvW are not filled, and having 7 thieves/rangers in a squad of 46 people is better than having 39 people with zerg classes.Look, I'm a roamer, I rarely join random zergs (or get kicked if I do) but your argument is... flawed. Kind of. The 7 members in this case wouldnt fill up the squad no, but they would still get possible boons and heals that the meta parties otherwise would have recieved. In essence they would leech by their mere presence because they are in the squad. Outside the squad, they would get leftovers that the squad cant recieve.

Besides, if those 7 would tag up and form their own squad, they would be a considerable threat to any zerg backline and allow the main commander to use them as leverage when manouvering on a monolithic enemy zerg, or perform specific tasks such as intercept reinforcements/delay enemies. Would also allow them to more easily see where their peeps are heading unlike when being in just a main zerg party.

It should be preferable to not being in a squad at all when that commander wont have you, but I guess the simple truth is that all roamer classes hate each other so they are unlikely to get along.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Lol, it was a joke, but hey it happened!

I even switched from Guardian to Ranger, since unlike some people I bring what the squad asks for.!

Seriously, that's what always confused me about things. Same thing with pve or here. Why not make your own parties and say "Non meta only!"

[steki.1478]

@"Faaris.8013" said:I only play Thief, and I'm getting kicked from squads all the time. Here's my opinion:

I understand that in competitive environments, usefulness, gear and skill matter a lot. I wouldn't show up at any raid, fractal or group in WvW without proper gear and skill, and I expect others to do the same. I have kicked people from fractal parties before because of performance issues. If you aren't up to the task, don't waste other peoples' time. And I'm not even disgruntled when I get kicked from a squad in WvW for good reason. Thief is not a good class for zerging, fact. If you have a Firebrand waiting to join the team, it's better for the group and the whole battle.

However, I also see people kicking thieves and rangers in a squad that's not full. It's not even the commanders themselves but people they gave the right to kick others. It happens after a zerg clash with another server where things didn't go well. Squad might have 46 members, 7 thieves/rangers. The thieves and rangers are usually in group 1, the "mixed trash" maybe ^^ So some people look for a reason for failing and it's easy to blame the non-zerg-classes. So they kick the 7 players from the squad. Now they are 39 people in the squad, because there are simply not more players available. Are they better off than before?

What I can see happening then is the thieves and rangers staying in the rear. It's simple really, we have a hard time surviving without boons and heals in the middle of the zerg, like anybody else. The squad then fights the same enemy blob as before, but with less people. The kicking harmed the team because there were no better replacements. Those who don't look into the mirror for reasons why the battle was lost can still feel better now. Requesting to kick thieves and rangers apparently is some form of virtue signalling. It's unreasonable in many cases. I even told a commander in a full squad to just kick me if a spellbreaker of FB is ready to join. I understand the mechanics and don't want to be the reason for failure. However, if your squad is not full, you are hurting it by kicking any player that deals damage. And we do deal damage, and we have a decent kill/death ratio, much better then most zerg class players I see around.

If you are a good player with proper gear and play thief/ranger, you get kicked from a squad. If you switched to FB with bad gear and no idea how to play, you are welcome in the very same squad. There's a lot of bad judgement going on, because it's much easier to just blame others than finding the real issue. In raids and fractals, you always get a full party, that is different. Most of the time, squads in WvW are not filled, and having 7 thieves/rangers in a squad of 46 people is better than having 39 people with zerg classes.

If you're really good, commander or someone in the squad would notice your damage output. I'm always vocal when I see a bad necro getting priority over a good DD. If you're really good you wouldn't need a squad spot even on meta build (questionable for scourge).

As dawdler said, heals and boons have group priority. If bad classes arent in squad they get less heals and less boons meaning that they are even less useful around the zerg and generally squishier. When people die more often, they ragequit easier, which gives the zerg a chance to get a more useful class that's waiting in queue, especially if they are already in voice chat.

[Faaris.8013]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Look, I'm a roamer, I rarely join random zergs (or get kicked if I do) but your argument is... flawed. Kind of. The 7 members in this case wouldnt fill up the squad no, but they would still get possible boons and heals that the meta parties otherwise would have recieved. In essence they would leech by their mere presence because they are in the squad. Outside the squad, they would get leftovers that the squad cant recieve.

In almost all instances, the "crap" goes into subgroup 1, the other members get their own subgroup, and boons and heals first go to your subgroup. I don't see how we steal boons or heals the way the mechanics work. I also wouldn't call it leeching at all because we are not slacking, we kill people, provide supply, pull enemies from walls, shoot them before they can disable siege, dismount them etc. Leeching is undeserved benefit, like standing at the rear, letting others do the work and then join for the capping. After getting kicked, that's often what happens. In my experience, the roamers are more active in game play and in a squad, when it comes to building siege, the supply listed in the squad window of subgroup 1 drops faster than in other groups.

I see no harm in keeping thieves and rangers as long as there are no zerg class replacements waiting. I'll update my arcdps to see some numbers in the next days, but I'm sure we are not the worst damage dealers in reality. In fractals, theoretically, a weaver deals more dps than a thief. In real game play, that's only true in maybe 1 of 5 cases.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Look, I'm a roamer, I rarely join random zergs (or get kicked if I do) but your argument is... flawed. Kind of. The 7 members in this case wouldnt fill up the squad no,

but

they would still get possible boons and heals that the meta parties otherwise would have recieved. In essence they would leech by their mere presence because they are in the squad. Outside the squad, they would get leftovers that the squad cant recieve.

In almost all instances, the "kitten" goes into subgroup 1, the other members get their own subgroup, and boons and heals first go to your subgroup. I don't see how we steal boons or heals the way the mechanics work.First yes. You missed the second part.

Lets pose a simple scenario. There are 3 groups in a squad - a 7 man thief party and two 5 man meta parties. We assume all of them are tightly stacked.

Now, one of the meta guards or whatever pop a 10 man AoE boon skill. The priority is indeed group first - so his 5 man group gets it just fine. But then? Random. Whatever boon is randomly given to those 7 thieves wont be given to any of the other 5 in the second group.

If the squad was only two 5 man parties with 7 thieves stacked on them outside the squad, all the boons would go to the two 5 man parties first and then the 7, if anyone in the squad is not in range (ie the "leftovers").

As such... yes you leech boons and heals/cleanse. You really do.

Whether this truly affects the combat performance of the zerg to the degree they want to actively kick people I will leave up to commanders to decide. Because it's their squad. I dont care what they do.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Look, I'm a roamer, I rarely join random zergs (or get kicked if I do) but your argument is... flawed. Kind of. The 7 members in this case wouldnt fill up the squad no,

but

they would still get possible boons and heals that the meta parties otherwise would have recieved. In essence they would leech by their mere presence because they are in the squad. Outside the squad, they would get leftovers that the squad cant recieve.

In almost all instances, the "kitten" goes into subgroup 1, the other members get their own subgroup, and boons and heals first go to your subgroup. I don't see how we steal boons or heals the way the mechanics work.

Well, that's the point. If you don't get boon/heal priority, being or not being in the squad makes no difference.

It also comes the awkward moment if the squad actually gets full and then they have to pick who to kick and that's never good either. It's just better to tell people to not join instead of "You're only welcome until we can fill this squad"

[Hoxworth.7318]

And people wonder why the wvw community is so toxic when so many ppl bring w/e the fuck they want even though a meta in PvE exists, a meta in PvP exists but in WvW magically there's no meta anymore. Imagine going into fractal with a heal berserker or a longbow spamming 2.. Just so happens WvW squads require teamwork but no, you keep playing ur selfish Soulbeasts :)

[Dawdler.8521]

@"YouWillHide.9847" said:And people wonder why the wvw community is so toxic when so many ppl bring w/e the kitten they want even though a meta in PvE exists, a meta in PvP exists but in WvW magically there's no meta anymore. Imagine going into fractal with a heal berserker or a longbow spamming 2.. Just so happens WvW squads require teamwork but no, you keep playing ur selfish Soulbeasts :)... Except that soulbeast is meta in WvW. In fact its 3 out of 4 of the meta builds on metabattle for WvW.

Just because its something you dont like to do in a role for WvW doesnt mean its not meta.

[Malavian.4695]

You're playing a skirmisher class, not a zerg class. You're going to have to roam with smaller squads or be content with finishing downs the zerg left alive. Go down to a less populated server if you want less judgment, just dont expect as many loot bags. That's all the zerg really wants...body count aoe.

[Hoxworth.7318]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"YouWillHide.9847" said:And people wonder why the wvw community is so toxic when so many ppl bring w/e the kitten they want even though a meta in PvE exists, a meta in PvP exists but in WvW magically there's no meta anymore. Imagine going into fractal with a heal berserker or a longbow spamming 2.. Just so happens WvW squads require teamwork but no, you keep playing ur selfish Soulbeasts :)... Except that soulbeast is meta in WvW. In fact its 3 out of 4 of the meta builds on metabattle for WvW.

Just because its something you dont like to do in a role for WvW doesnt mean its not meta.

http://prntscr.com/nid4g9 ?

[Dawdler.8521]

@"YouWillHide.9847" said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"YouWillHide.9847" said:And people wonder why the wvw community is so toxic when so many ppl bring w/e the kitten they want even though a meta in PvE exists, a meta in PvP exists but in WvW magically there's no meta anymore. Imagine going into fractal with a heal berserker or a longbow spamming 2.. Just so happens WvW squads require teamwork but no, you keep playing ur selfish Soulbeasts :)... Except that soulbeast is meta in WvW. In fact its 3 out of 4 of the meta builds on metabattle for WvW.

Just because its something you dont like to do in a role for WvW doesnt mean its not meta.

http://prntscr.com/nid4g9

?Still meta WvW builds for the ranger.

[Hoxworth.7318]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"YouWillHide.9847" said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"YouWillHide.9847" said:And people wonder why the wvw community is so toxic when so many ppl bring w/e the kitten they want even though a meta in PvE exists, a meta in PvP exists but in WvW magically there's no meta anymore. Imagine going into fractal with a heal berserker or a longbow spamming 2.. Just so happens WvW squads require teamwork but no, you keep playing ur selfish Soulbeasts :)... Except that soulbeast is meta in WvW. In fact its 3 out of 4 of the meta builds on metabattle for WvW.

Just because its something you dont like to do in a role for WvW doesnt mean its not meta.

http://prntscr.com/nid4g9

?Still meta WvW builds for the ranger.

in the skirmish section sure, But we're talking about zergs are we not?

[Knighthonor.4061]

@joneirikb.7506 said:

@"Princ.3598" said:(Posted this on reddit but will here aswell to maybe hear more opinions)

Hi,

First off I would like to say I'm a fairly new player to WvW, but not the game or PvP (plat there). I have played WvW before but just to get my legendary weapon. Since the mount came out I tried WvW again and found that It's enjoyable if done correctly, especially with coordinated teams in discord.

​

The thing is..I'm a soulbeast. And the commanders don't want me in their teams. In our server, there is one prevalent guild that runs WvW and tags and I got told to basically switch to meta wvw classes or else I'm just not welcome in the raid. So after waiting in a 50-100man queue, all I can do is try to follow the commander as some outcasted class that shouldnt be there in the first place.

​

It definitely shifted my perspective on WvW a bit. While I understand where they are coming from since the goal is to..win. Just doesnt feel good.

EDIT: I would just like to add that I'm talking about the scenario of a squad not being full. So 35/50, otherwise I would gladly leave a spot for a meta class honestly.

Is this a common occurence on your servers aswell?

Thoughts?

Just to point out that SoulBeast (and a few others), generally works best outside of the main zergball anyways. So the optimal way to play them, is exactly as you did, make a own group and run around the sides and kill stuff that gets out of formation. And you don't need a spot in the Squad for that.

One of the main uses for the squad, is to share buffs, as the game will prioritize buffs internally in the squad first, before sharing with other nearby players outside of the squad. Thus they keep the classes that most needs the buffs (most of the meta zerg classes) in the squad, and kicks out other classes that doesn't need/rely on those boons, like Soulbeast.

Unfortunately since most gamers doesn't have the best social skills at times, and get easily impatient, they often skip explaining this and just kick people and tell them to get back on meta! Certainly not the most constructive way of explaining things, but at the same time, if this happens 10+ times in an evening, you do get tired of typing it out.

If there are no other commanders that group up, your choices are either to play something zerg meta, or keep roaming/havoc. It really depend upon the commander/guild group that runs. Some groups will still take you into squad but put you in a "gank squad" a own sub group with classes that doesn't give/need group boons for example.

Sorry if you had a bad experience with WvW, hope you'll still try it, and look around for a wvw guild you can run with, that tends to make things a lot more fun.

I disagree. Wvw is a numbers game. Lots of non meta builds work because of the numbers game and provide benefits that can counter situations of enemy zergs

[joneirikb.7506]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@joneirikb.7506 said:

@"Princ.3598" said:(Posted this on reddit but will here aswell to maybe hear more opinions)

Hi,

First off I would like to say I'm a fairly new player to WvW, but not the game or PvP (plat there). I have played WvW before but just to get my legendary weapon. Since the mount came out I tried WvW again and found that It's enjoyable if done correctly, especially with coordinated teams in discord.

​

The thing is..I'm a soulbeast. And the commanders don't want me in their teams. In our server, there is one prevalent guild that runs WvW and tags and I got told to basically switch to meta wvw classes or else I'm just not welcome in the raid. So after waiting in a 50-100man queue, all I can do is try to follow the commander as some outcasted class that shouldnt be there in the first place.

​

It definitely shifted my perspective on WvW a bit. While I understand where they are coming from since the goal is to..win. Just doesnt feel good.

EDIT: I would just like to add that I'm talking about the scenario of a squad not being full. So 35/50, otherwise I would gladly leave a spot for a meta class honestly.

Is this a common occurence on your servers aswell?

Thoughts?

Just to point out that SoulBeast (and a few others), generally works best outside of the main zergball anyways. So the optimal way to play them, is exactly as you did, make a own group and run around the sides and kill stuff that gets out of formation. And you don't need a spot in the Squad for that.

One of the main uses for the squad, is to share buffs, as the game will prioritize buffs internally in the squad first, before sharing with other nearby players outside of the squad. Thus they keep the classes that most needs the buffs (most of the meta zerg classes) in the squad, and kicks out other classes that doesn't need/rely on those boons, like Soulbeast.

Unfortunately since most gamers doesn't have the best social skills at times, and get easily impatient, they often skip explaining this and just kick people and tell them to get back on meta! Certainly not the most constructive way of explaining things, but at the same time, if this happens 10+ times in an evening, you do get tired of typing it out.

If there are no other commanders that group up, your choices are either to play something zerg meta, or keep roaming/havoc. It really depend upon the commander/guild group that runs. Some groups will still take you into squad but put you in a "gank squad" a own sub group with classes that doesn't give/need group boons for example.

Sorry if you had a bad experience with WvW, hope you'll still try it, and look around for a wvw guild you can run with, that tends to make things a lot more fun.

I disagree. Wvw is a numbers game. Lots of non meta builds work because of the numbers game and provide benefits that can counter situations of enemy zergs

I don't understand why you quoted me with this ?

If you're saying that playing with (for ex) double numbers is better than group composition/meta, well that still doesn't change that the ones you have on your team that runs meta benefits greatly from having their boons shared among other meta classes, while all the non meta doesn't really benefit that greatly from them anyways, so still doesn't need to be in the squad and still benefit by out numbering.

And a well organized group running a good comp can still beat groups about double their size, by running meta and thus by organizing players on the most efficient classes into efficient teams to benefit the most from the boon share.

[Faaris.8013]

@"YouWillHide.9847" said:And people wonder why the wvw community is so toxic

To be honest, I found much more toxicity in Fractals and Raids than in WvW. And if you get kicked in WvW, you can still play along, it's almost like getting kicked from a squad at the Octovine event in Auric Basin. Yes, I have been kicked from a squad there ^^

It has become a meme in this game to kick thieves. Thief players certainly share a good deal of the blame for that. I have a great distaste for stealth gankers and "know better and jump ahead" people. You could say thieves are my arch enemies, when I get downed in one shot, it's usually backstab and that is really a nasty, not-fun-way of playing the game (tells something about the person who finds joy in that really). But there are people in this world who like team work and still prefer thief/assassin classes in games. I just can't help it, and it's not like Anet wants thieves to be useful.

I also have all other classes, but I'm not as good with them and enjoy them less. However, in Fractals and Raids I started playing guard and warrior at some point. I reinstalled arcdps yesterday and got some insight into my damage with DD and how other classes do. It's OK. It's not what spellbreakers or scourges or heralds can do (hell that Coalescence of Ruin is a devastating). I will check out the scourge build for squads and see how I can manage.

It's weird I know, I love thief/assassin but not solo camp taking. The staff build with Dagger Storm and stomping works in groups if you can survive though. I have no good chances against thieves set up for roaming or duelling because mine is set up for group fights as much as possible. What's really useless in groups is rifle thief imo. They suck in groups, in small scale fights and duels, probably the worst elite Anet ever produced.