Condition builds on a thief what class would feel best suited to have a condition build?

[Rico.6873]

When I think of thieves, I think of Assassins, backstabbers, when you take a drink from these guys your hoping its not your final drink

So what would be the best way to give thief a strong condition option?Should a new class/profession be released that offers more conditions on the weapon and the abilities?Should certain abilities be reworked/buffed/changed?

Holosmith/Firebrand can be turned into burning machines of madnessWhy doesnt the Assassin in this game NOT have a strong condition build?Mesmers masters of illusions have the strongest condition builds...Where Scourge I can understand why scourge is a strong condition master but Mesmers? ...

[SehferViega.8725]

Sure Thieves have strong condition build.In PvE Power builds are strongers on Thief. But in order to play in WvW there are some good condi solutions that still work despite all nerfs.

Here you can find some builds:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/74822/condi-daredevil-no-synergetic-master-trait#latest

[Rico.6873]

I see a daredevil holding a two handed weapon (staff) and to me that doesnt give a real condition vibe...Thematically I can see Deadeye becoming a condition spec, because he shoots bullets (bullets bleed) where he can be focused on the bleeding and poisonCore Thief also is a strong contender thematically to be a condition overlord

But seeing as thief is focused on poison which is more a counter against healing... and not a real damage condition(where confusion and burning condition are the more damaging ones) I see no real way for thief to really get a powerful condition damaging role...

Only way for thief to get access to a strong condition role is with a new weapon/new thief classSo while Areanet is buy changing all professions I will wait and see until their done to see how it ends...

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

There are some decent condi options for thief, there's a few main issues with them tho;

1) cleanse on all classes has increased dramatically with the introduction of PoF in response to the then un-nerfed scourge, and then again with the rune rework, while condi thief has seen no increase to it's offensive capacity in that time to compensate.

2) time to kill on condi builds is dramatically slower than on power builds at the moment due to how strong power spike builds are right now. Condi builds should have a slower kill time, but currently a lot of condi builds don't have the sustain needed to survive long enough to get the kill, especially if outnumbered.

3) thief in particular has a lot of reapplication of damaging conditions, but not much in the way of cover condis. This makes it more suited to an attrition playstyle than a condi bomb playstyle, which currently is easier to sustain through cleanses or blocks than say a condi mirage, which only really needs to hit you once.

I have a condi build that was somewhat effective (I say was, I've not tried it since the daredevil rework); I used it when mounts first were introduced as the salt you get off of killing a firebrand with condis is amazing. That said, when my deadeye can hit for 17k DJ's with only a mark and one hit to immob, it's simply less effective in this meta to play condi than power right now.

[derd.6413]

when you say "new class/profession" are you talking about especs?

[babazhook.6805]

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:There are some decent condi options for thief, there's a few main issues with them tho;

1) cleanse on all classes has increased dramatically with the introduction of PoF in response to the then un-nerfed scourge, and then again with the rune rework, while condi thief has seen no increase to it's offensive capacity in that time to compensate.

2) time to kill on condi builds is dramatically slower than on power builds at the moment due to how strong power spike builds are right now. Condi builds should have a slower kill time, but currently a lot of condi builds don't have the sustain needed to survive long enough to get the kill, especially if outnumbered.

3) thief in particular has a lot of reapplication of damaging conditions, but not much in the way of cover condis. This makes it more suited to an attrition playstyle than a condi bomb playstyle, which currently is easier to sustain through cleanses or blocks than say a condi mirage, which only really needs to hit you once.

I have a condi build that was somewhat effective (I say was, I've not tried it since the daredevil rework); I used it when mounts first were introduced as the salt you get off of killing a firebrand with condis is amazing. That said, when my deadeye can hit for 17k DJ's with only a mark and one hit to immob, it's simply less effective in this meta to play condi than power right now.

I am really not sure what you mean by thief having a lack of cover conditions. In the P/d set inherent we have Immob/bleed/torment/cripple/vuln. Poison and weakness are also easily obtained through the set when speccing deadly Arts. We have at least as many if not more total conditions as a mesmer with with 4 plus I would consider as Covers for your damaging conditions.

A Condition bomb from a thief can apply significant condition stakcs the difference being our bombs less frequent and require a wee bit more work. Our in between adds can maintain that steady pressure without a lot of work. The mesmers real advantage lies in it having more ways to avoid damage over p/d thief.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAqY4YlsMh2mYRTw0JQ/EHwEl+PDgCg3DxwM4/i4YEB-jlgPABSr+DA7PAA-w

Lots of Covers.

[saerni.2584]

As far as this meta is concerned I would build hybrid. There are too many cleanses. You need (1) persistent application and (2) enough damage otherwise that they are forced to burn extra defenses. The more defenses they burn through the more condi and regular damage can land.

The ideal of hybrid is to apply damage that can’t be fully countered. Direct damage immunity and Condi Damage immunity are possible in certain contexts. It takes much more effort to counter both.

Does a hybrid thief achieve this? No, but you will get farther in a hybrid build than a condi build these days.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@Rico.6873 said:I see a daredevil holding a two handed weapon (staff) and to me that doesnt give a real condition vibe...Thematically I can see Deadeye becoming a condition spec, because he shoots bullets (bullets bleed) where he can be focused on the bleeding and poisonCore Thief also is a strong contender thematically to be a condition overlord

But seeing as thief is focused on poison which is more a counter against healing... and not a real damage condition(where confusion and burning condition are the more damaging ones) I see no real way for thief to really get a powerful condition damaging role...

Only way for thief to get access to a strong condition role is with a new weapon/new thief classSo while Areanet is buy changing all professions I will wait and see until their done to see how it ends...

Thieves actually were very strong at condi in the past before HoT.

Dual daggers was the weapon choice with a majority of the damage coming from how quickly bleed wrecked you. It did not need Vipers and was perfectly fine with rolling with carrion.

The poisons gave them some means of shutting down classes via soft CC and heal prevention.

Don't know anymore though

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@"babazhook.6805" said:I am really not sure what you mean by thief having a lack of cover conditions.I mean a lack of conver condis compared with the magnitude of cleanse available, it's a relative thing. We also have to consider that getting decent amounts of immob or vuln on an enemy will detract from your damaging condis in some way because of ini limitations, mesmers don't have that issue.A Condition bomb from a thief can apply significant condition stakcs the difference being our bombs less frequent and require a wee bit more work. Our in between adds can maintain that steady pressure without a lot of work. The mesmers real advantage lies in it having more ways to avoid damage over p/d thief.^ You pretty much said what I meant to say, sorry if I worded it confusingly. Condi bombs work a lot better than damage over time in this sort of meta, as you need to time them for when you know the opponent has burnt cleanses. Mesmer simply does that better at the moment. I don't mean to say that condi thief is unusable tho, simply not as good as mesmer for pure condi imo.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZUQNAqYVl0Mh2mYpTwvJQ/ELwEm2fKAUA8+CLqR0cIsE2CB-jFSHQBWUJ4z2fIAPAgxpPQeHBg5dIA1fAwJAYgK/CAgAMzysMnZgZOzZOzZOzKzZOzZOzZOzZOzZWKgqEtB-w^ this is what I was running on condi prior to the last patch. Idea is to immob stuff in poison fields, with steal>weaponswap to P/D doing a nice little bomb. It's a niche build but it works for me for the most part.

[babazhook.6805]

Just a by the way. I remembered I had a full set of Runes of the Aristocracy in my locker. These provide 5 stacks might for six seconds on a 1 second cooldown when weakness applied to an enemy. It still early in testing but early indications are against a single enemy you get around ~15 stacks might without too much trouble which is 450 added condition damage. I have pushed it higher and it sometimes lower and I test iterations of it (such as DA with the dagger training for more ongoing weakness sources). If it works out as Hoped I might consider trying to hybrid with these. They also work quite well with shortbow traiting daredevil for the weakening strikes trait.

[Warkind.6745]

A weapon set made for and balanced entirely around conditions needs to be implemented, otherwise you end up with spam builds like DB, infiltrator's strike, and maybe cluster bomb if you're in WvW.

The condition potential of current weapon sets really only hinges around one or maybe two skills which just encourages stale gameplay whether you're playing or facing it.

[Jack Redline.5379]

CONDI DAREDEVIL TRAPPER!!!CHEESY CONDI STILL WORKS SINCE HOT

[bq pd.2148]

IMO condition builds in this game always were an issue as they are either too weak or too oppressive in any given encounter against players.the base difference between the damage types is that conditions should be dealing more damage over time and direct damage should be dealing more damage in a short time frame.i think that fun combat needs burst, wich doesnt have to be burst damage as such but it can also be burst application of conditions or heal.but because we have cleanses and resistance affecting damaging conditions, the condition applications either burst soo much that they are no longer damage over time or they are applied not in a burst but very spammy to overcome the cleanses and be pretty unfun to fight against. so changing with each balance patch condition builds either are useless in a majority of their encounters or too strong in many encounters.i think we need some changes in the longer run for how conditions work in this game:

• splitting non damaging and damaging conditions
• make +condi duration only affect damaging conditions
• make cleanses/resistance only affect non damaging conditions
• balance condi application from there: longer durations and fewer stacks as they are more reliable. some are just too cheesy then without cleanses like the condi damage on steal or death blossom, while AAs mostly have too low condi damage. more skills can have damaging conditions on them if the base values of power and condition damage is reduced to a minimum and made more stat depending.
• a 3rd stat affecting condition damage. for example precision. if a condition application 'crits' the duration is extended. while reducing base damage. dire should be more on a level of soldier equipment in regards to tankiness and damage. condition sets do not need more sustain if they deal reliably their damage, however if they can drag the fight longer they will win with reliable condition damage.
• health bar showing greyed out for how much the current applied conditions will approx tick over their duration, similar to barrier would be nice too.

if changes like the ones above are introduced, then i would welcome a condition elite spec for thief. my bet for a longer time now is on torch for our next elite spec offhand or dual wield. there are some dual wield or mainhand torches as envoiremental weapons already in the game, tho the mainhand weapons use sword animations.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@babazhook.6805 said:Just a by the way. I remembered I had a full set of Runes of the Aristocracy in my locker. These provide 5 stacks might for six seconds on a 1 second cooldown when weakness applied to an enemy. It still early in testing but early indications are against a single enemy you get around ~15 stacks might without too much trouble which is 450 added condition damage. I have pushed it higher and it sometimes lower and I test iterations of it (such as DA with the dagger training for more ongoing weakness sources). If it works out as Hoped I might consider trying to hybrid with these. They also work quite well with shortbow traiting daredevil for the weakening strikes trait.

I was messing with this a little while ago for hybrid, since sword auto applies weakness and as far as I'm aware the might proc has no ICD. I didn't have much joy with it, but I reckon there's a hybrid s/d build in there somewhere.

[babazhook.6805]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Just a by the way. I remembered I had a full set of Runes of the Aristocracy in my locker. These provide 5 stacks might for six seconds on a 1 second cooldown when weakness applied to an enemy. It still early in testing but early indications are against a single enemy you get around ~15 stacks might without too much trouble which is 450 added condition damage. I have pushed it higher and it sometimes lower and I test iterations of it (such as DA with the dagger training for more ongoing weakness sources). If it works out as Hoped I might consider trying to hybrid with these. They also work quite well with shortbow traiting daredevil for the weakening strikes trait.

I was messing with this a little while ago for hybrid, since sword auto applies weakness and as far as I'm aware the might proc has no ICD. I didn't have much joy with it, but I reckon there's a hybrid s/d build in there somewhere.

I am testing on a d/d deathblossom build that uses shamans/spothecary mix for ongoing heals. The heals on the build are at around 1200 but while this gave huge sustain , damage out was low. The build used to use anti-toxin. With the tweaks added to the build and the Aristocracy my conditions out now push 2000 with no real hit to healing. I am not noticing any real impact on cleanses as even while lower with the anti-toxin drop the combination of heals with existing cleanses can keep up. What is nice is that the other attacks in the d/d set (Including the DB itself) can now pump out more raw damage which is like having more overall stacks on.

s/d hybrid might work but I only have one full set of the Aristocracy and they expensive to pull off the existing build. I will have to think out a few possibilities using carrion or maybe grievers . or vipers. s/d would certainly be more fun to play as d/d condition gets redundant after a while. One other thought is s/p using pressure strike in a hybrid. (DA/DD/TR)