Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Could War Eternal be about Menzies as well?


Slowpokeking.8720

Recommended Posts

I think strength (or difficulty to kill) has little to do with how powerfull a being is. Abadon is a lot easier to kill then Mallyx, but according to lore, Abadon was more powerfull. The reason has to do with the content something has been written for. Abadon is part of the main story while Mallyx is the end boss of an elite mission. So arguing from healthpools and dps is not a very strong argument.

You have to understand the role someone plays in a story. Balthasar is the God of war. He needs an adversary in his realm, otherwise there would be no war. This means that his faith is tied to that of his brother. No war exist without the other. The are both very much aware of this and know that when they stop eachother, the war is over and the purpose of the godly powers is over as well.They are in this way, more like Lyssa. Twins, that both form the war that makes it the god of war and they are in a way the same entity as they embody war and conflict. This is different then e.g. the difference between dhuum and grenth, which is a more philosophical difference about how afterlife should be. They are both part of the war and have no real difference.

for the rest, lets focus on what we know about them.They are called brothers.Their origin is unknown.Balthazar seems to be responsable for the death of their father, as het was carrying his father's head when he arrived in Tyria.

If we would see an introduction of Menzies, we should see more about both of their background. Is there a true conflict, or are they just part of the war? So far we have none and Menzies is unknown to most players.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 59
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Menzies is likely dead, killed by Balthazar before he got depowered by the other Gods. We can assume this safely because Balthazar and Menzies were at war, and it was stated that Balthazar had no war to fight which is why he was itching to fight the Dragons, in that case, he must have had already overcome Menzies immediately after the GW1 characters intervene in the Fissure of Woe and help speed along his Eternal's victory.

Menzies was never 'depowered', he and Balthazaar is likely equal in terms of power, hence why the shadow army he had created is able to fight Balthazaar's Eternals for eternity

now that Balthazaar is truly gone, Menzies forces can now finally overrun FoW, which hopefully be the next raid, we need to go into FoW to help out clean up the mess

 

 

or Menzies vent his personal grudge against us and Kalk (for taking Balthzaar's power), because he believes it is him and only him alone have the right to kill Balthazaar and drain his magic

Umh. I wasn’t referring to Menzies with that, give it another read.

Also Menzies wouldn’t have been on Balthazar’s level, Balthazar was a god at the time, Menzies was not.

Menzies has already been defeated and likely killed. That is why Balthazar was bored and wanted to fight the dragons.

sorry, my bad :lol:

Menzies wasnt a 'god' because of the other human gods did not back him, there was nothing in lore that said he's weaker than Balthazaar

gotta remember, a god is really just a title called to the mist beings' followers, the humans, that's why they are referred to the human gods, majority of other races dont recognise them as gods; even for Quaggans, they only recognised Melandru, well, assumed Mellaggan to be Melandru

i think anyone with an altered ego like Balthazaar sees something that can challenge his power would do the same thing, regardless Menzies is dead or notand from what we seen so far, mist beings cannot be simply killed and that's it, someone have to take their place or the magic released from their death will blow up the plane they are in, that's why they imprison them instead of outright kill them

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Menzies is likely dead, killed by Balthazar before he got depowered by the other Gods. We can assume this safely because Balthazar and Menzies were at war, and it was stated that Balthazar had no war to fight which is why he was itching to fight the Dragons, in that case, he must have had already overcome Menzies immediately after the GW1 characters intervene in the Fissure of Woe and help speed along his Eternal's victory.

Menzies was never 'depowered', he and Balthazaar is likely equal in terms of power, hence why the shadow army he had created is able to fight Balthazaar's Eternals for eternity

now that Balthazaar is truly gone, Menzies forces can now finally overrun FoW, which hopefully be the next raid, we need to go into FoW to help out clean up the mess

or Menzies vent his personal grudge against us and Kalk (for taking Balthzaar's power), because he believes it is him and only him alone have the right to kill Balthazaar and drain his magic

Nothing says Menzies created the Shadow Army, unless you mean "created" in the sense of creating the organization by recruiting people.

And Kralkatorrik didn't take Balthazar's power, not the power Menzies was after. The power Kralk and Aurene took was what Balthazar gained from absorbing the magic from Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

@crepuscular.9047 said:sorry, my bad :lol:

Menzies wasnt a 'god' because of the other human gods did not back him, there was nothing in lore that said he's weaker than Balthazaar

gotta remember, a god is really just a title called to the mist beings' followers, the humans, that's why they are referred to the human gods, majority of other races dont recognise them as gods; even for Quaggans, they only recognised Melandru, well, assumed Mellaggan to be Melandru

i think anyone with an altered ego like Balthazaar sees something that can challenge his power would do the same thing, regardless Menzies is dead or notand from what we seen so far, mist beings cannot be simply killed and that's it, someone have to take their place or the magic released from their death will blow up the plane they are in, that's why they imprison them instead of outright kill them

Godhood in GW is more than just a mere title. It is an actual power that can be transferred among individuals. At least for the Six. We've met other "mists beings" and they are nothing compared to the Six. Saying "the Six are just mere mists beings" would be like saying "the Elder Dragons are just mere dragons".

Being worshiped and considered a god does not make one an actual god. Otherwise the mursaat would have been an entire race where each individual was as powerful as the Six. Or the Sacred Griffon of Amnoon or Moa'vu'Kaal such a being. But they're not, they're just powerful individuals of a mortal (not divine) species.

We have no clue whether Koda, Melaggan, Zintl, or Amiyali are actually gods, beings like the Spirits of the Wild, or something else.

And nothing suggests that Menzies is a god like the Six. At best, he would be a demigod like Grenth pre-ascension, or Dhuum and Balthazar post-descension. Most likely more akin to Mad King Thorn. Or perhaps akin to the Spirits of the Wild.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And Kralkatorrik didn't take Balthazar's power, not the power Menzies was after. The power Kralk and Aurene took was what Balthazar gained from absorbing the magic from Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

don't forget the magic that sustained Balthazaar as a being while been chained up in the mist

Godhood in GW is more than just a mere title. It is an actual power that can be transferred among individuals. At least for the Six. We've met other "mists beings" and they are nothing compared to the Six. Saying "the Six are just mere mists beings" would be like saying "the Elder Dragons are just mere dragons".

they essentially are, Elder Dragons are dragons, just races on Tyria call them elder dragons; Glint, Vlast and Aurene all have the potential of replacing themjust like Eastern and Western views of dragons and how they are portraited

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Menzies could of also become balth's replacement; Which is why we haven't heard anything from him. Is because the six basically chose menzies to replace balth, they never say balth beat menzies just that he got bored and was spooling for a "Refreshing fight". He could of grown tired of fighting his brother; And then turned his sights on the dragons so who knows.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As much as Menzies being the main threat for a season and/or expansion would be super cool, this episode should be firmly dedicated to Kralkatorrik. Whether this is the conclusion to his arc and we kill him or not, to shift now would feel very odd.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only way Menzies would be involved is if they back the story as to what occurred in the Fissure of Woe before the events of GW2 alongside why Balthazar and Menzies fought. There's too much backstory and plotholes that would need to be filled to justify as to why Menzies would be involved.

I definitely think there's a God of War twist in what has occurred in LWS4 but what they go with in terms of story we'll find out this May

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@crepuscular.9047 said:they essentially are, Elder Dragons are dragons, just races on Tyria call them elder dragons; Glint, Vlast and Aurene all have the potential of replacing themjust like Eastern and Western views of dragons and how they are portraited

The Elder Dragons are more than mere dragons. They're intricately connected to The All. yes, they can be replaced, but there could only be a maximum of six Elder Dragons (maybe 12 since they have two domains each? Hard to say there). Glint, Vlast, and Aurene cannot replace an Elder Dragon without first dethroning an Elder Dragon. Similarly, one cannot become a god without dethroning a god.

This is very different from eastern views of dragons where they can ascend to divinity by becoming more powerful without replacing another divine being.

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Menzies could of also become balth's replacement; Which is why we haven't heard anything from him. Is because the six basically chose menzies to replace balth, they never say balth beat menzies just that he got bored and was spooling for a "Refreshing fight". He could of grown tired of fighting his brother; And then turned his sights on the dragons so who knows.

While possible, it's very, very unlikely. Menzies has a strong reputation as being evil, treachrous, and conniving. He also aided the Six Gods' greatest known (to players) enemies: Abaddon and Dhuum.

And what was said is that Balthazar was idle and grew bored of being idle. Which means he wasn't fighting anyone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:And Kralkatorrik didn't take Balthazar's power, not the power Menzies was after. The power Kralk and Aurene took was what Balthazar gained from absorbing the magic from Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

That's a fan theory which has been pretty explicitly contradicted both in the Requiem writing (that Aurene contained the pure divine War magic that transcended the corruption of Balthazar himself), that Balthazar's sword, an actual god relic, could sense his divine signature, and in that each dragon got new abilities from Balthazar like they did from the other Elder Dragons, rather than just getting raw energy.

It remains to be seen how the writers will reconcile this to the idea that Balthazar is fallen and depowered and somehow different from the remaining of the Six, and to the plot of Nightfall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@perilisk.1874 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And Kralkatorrik didn't take Balthazar's power, not the power Menzies was after. The power Kralk and Aurene took was what Balthazar gained from absorbing the magic from Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

That's a fan theory which has been pretty explicitly contradicted both in the Requiem writing (that Aurene contained the pure divine War magic that transcended the corruption of Balthazar himself), that Balthazar's sword, an actual god relic, could sense his divine signature, and in that each dragon got new abilities from Balthazar like they did from the other Elder Dragons, rather than just getting raw energy.

It remains to be seen how the writers will reconcile this to the idea that Balthazar is fallen and depowered and somehow different from the remaining of the Six, and to the plot of Nightfall.

It's not a fan theory. It was not only explicitly stated by Kormir and Balthazar in the game, but by developers as well. Balthazar had his power stripped from him.

Balthazar: They abated me, dimmed my light... But they will see me now.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Volcano_(story)

Rytlock Brimstone: Or the five. Balthazar is one of the Six.Kormir: No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six.

Kormir: We stripped him of his power, and chained him in the Mists. There he would remain, forever—powerless to carry out his plans.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth

I think you might have answered your own question, bc Sohothin and Aurene are definitely key factors ;) However, it's important to remember that Balthazar's power level is not at the same level when the other gods stripped him of his power and chained him in the Mists. The power he wields in PoF is what he's regained since absorbing a bloodstone and Taimi's machine. He's still mega-powerful, but the Commander is also pretty freakin' powerful and using a god's own sword against him and having your own pet dragon seem to go a long way.https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0hz8w/?st=j9nk3g6t&sh=4eadf480

There's no theory. It's 100% confirmed.

But it's also shown and confirmed that Balthazar "converted" the magic he absorbed into his own form of magic. This is why he doesn't use ice magic. The Elder Dragons no doubt do this too, thus why we only ever see Zhaitan using death and shadow magic, or Primordus using fire magic (prior to S3), despite them absorbing a shit ton of Orrian and Asuran magic respectively. Similarly, Dhuum only ever uses his death magic despite consuming countless souls that would no doubt have had other forms of magic.

That "converted" magic is what the Zafirah requiem talks about, it's what Balthazar's sword is drawn to. It's not about Balthazar's divinity, but that divinity's "flavor of magic" that Balthazar was still connected to somehow (just as Dhuum is to his own old divinity of death domain). But it also mentions that Zafirah sensed a difference in Balthazar's magic when she met him in person compared to the power she felt the time before. There was similarities, but also a notable difference.

What this all shows is that a fallen god still retains some connection to that "domain" that they once held sway over, as it is shown not just with Balthazar but Dhuum. Balthazar was 100% no longer a god, no longer had that divinity, but was still connected to it and converted magic into its domain until his death.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@perilisk.1874 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:And Kralkatorrik didn't take Balthazar's power, not the power Menzies was after. The power Kralk and Aurene took was what Balthazar gained from absorbing the magic from Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

That's a fan theory which has been pretty explicitly contradicted both in the Requiem writing (that Aurene contained the pure divine War magic that transcended the corruption of Balthazar himself), that Balthazar's sword, an actual god relic, could sense his divine signature, and in that each dragon got new abilities from Balthazar like they did from the other Elder Dragons, rather than just getting raw energy.

It remains to be seen how the writers will reconcile this to the idea that Balthazar is fallen and depowered and somehow different from the remaining of the Six, and to the plot of Nightfall.

It's not a fan theory. It is quite literally said that Balthazar is no longer a god, thus he does not have the divine magic.

What he DID still have was his own inherent magic as a powerful being regardless of whether or not he had the divine magic. Dhuum is still monstrously powerful, so was presumably Menzies, and Grenth before he took Dhuum's divine magic.

The sword belonged to him and was likely made by him whilst he was still a god (Hence why it still had divine magic in it), therefore whether he is a God or not is irrelevant to his sword being able to tell his essence was absorbed by Aurene. Dhuum's scythe didn't suddenly recognise Grenth as it's wielder just because Grenth took Dhuum's divine power.

The two things are different: Balthazar's inherent magic and the divine magic of the God of War. He had the former still, but he did not have the latter.

Nowhere in Requiem does it say Aurene had divine magic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:But it also mentions that Zafirah sensed a difference in Balthazar's magic when she met him in person compared to the power she felt the time before. There was similarities, but also a notable difference.

But she felt the old feeling in Aurene, which can only have come from the magic Aurene consumed from Balthazar. So, he must have still had some true divine magic -- not just Balthazar magic or corrupted divinity, but the sort of divine magic that would be transferred to a new god. I don't deny that Kormir claimed that he was stripped of title, and we directly saw that he was depowered somehow and fundamentally changed to lose his holy aura.

But just as obviously, it wasn't a complete transformation, or there would be nothing divine for Zafirah to sense in Aurene, only (at best) Balthazar magic. And it's implied from the way she described it that the presence she felt was the real thing, the pure essence of the divine domain as distinct from and transcending the vessel. It seems like an inconsistency, so I'm curious how they will resolve it (if they bother) -- did the Six figure out that, so long as they left some of his power intact, they didn't need to replace him? Or did they leave it inside him, and simply sealed it away so he couldn't access and abuse it (worked so well with Abaddon, why not try it again)? Was it just that the excision of divinity was only 99% successful, and some traces of divinity were left over?

I have a suspicion that this is all to create some justification for having Aurene be reborn as a new war god (the war god is dead, long live the war god!) -- if so, I imagine that the issue of "what happened to Balthazar's power, then?" will be handwaved away or we'll get an unsatisfying answer. Though, I guess I could see where she is just a delivery mechanism to provide the last missing bit of divinity to a new vessel. Either way, I put the odds of ending Season 4 without a new war god of some sort to be pretty slim.

I guess the most outlandish possible option is that the Pact Commander becomes the new vessel for War, minus the cosmic power. They could justify it by saying that the same bond that lets the PC help Aurene safely absorb magic (per the most recent episode) also works in reverse -- thus, they don't have to transform like Kormir so long as Aurene is alive and bonded with them. Well, they'd have to bring her back for that, but after killing and resurrecting the actual PC, we're starting to operate with Supernatural-level character death stakes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@perilisk.1874 said:But she felt the old feeling in Aurene, which can only have come from the magic Aurene consumed from Balthazar. So, he must have still had some true divine magic -- not just Balthazar magic or corrupted divinity, but the sort of divine magic that would be transferred to a new god. I don't deny that Kormir claimed that he was stripped of title, and we directly saw that he was depowered somehow and fundamentally changed to lose his holy aura.

I don't see why it must be Balthazar's divinity.

Firstly, from Zafirah's Requiem is this line:

But something was wrong. He stood before me, tall and imposing, power radiating from his physical form...but this power was different from what I had felt all those years before. His voice dissonant from the one I heard within me.

This outright states that Balthazar's fallen state is, while very similar, ultimately different from the blessings from "Balthazar" she had known over the years (I use quotes because ultimately we don't know if it was from Balthazar, or some replacement, or some remnant from pre-fall Balthazar).

About Aurene, what she says during Requiem is this:

My faith is not in the god himself. His flesh, such as it was. My faith is in what he made me feel—his power, his potential. A potential that lived on in Aurene.

When Balthazar's sword seeks Aurene out, this is what's said:

Zafirah: It seeks Balthazar. Senses his magic. I don't understand... Balthazar was never here...Commander: But Aurene was.Zafirah: The sword perceives him... through her? Just who is this dragon of yours?

And when Zafirah first meets Aurene what's said is:

Zafirah: What... Balthazar? I can feel him...Commander: Ah, right. You haven't met Aurene in person.Zafirah: I...never expected to feel his presence again. And in a dragon...

There is nothing about Balthazar's divinity. It is all about the feel of his magic. Which Balthazar retained throughout Path of Fire, even when he took in other forms of magic in, he used his own magic; just as Dhuum retained the type, feel, flavor, etc. of his magic despite being dethroned and no longer a god.

None of that implies or requires Balthazar to have retained his divinity.

@perilisk.1874 said:But just as obviously, it wasn't a complete transformation, or there would be nothing divine for Zafirah to sense in Aurene, only (at best) Balthazar magic.

Which is exactly what Zafirah felt. Not his divinity. His magic.

Which is exactly what Blish wanted the sword for: Balthazar's magic, not divinity:

Blish: Leave the device to me. But we'll need a lure: magic tasty enough to tempt a dragon.Blish: Something like... Ah—Balthazar's sword!

@perilisk.1874 said:And it's implied from the way she described it that the presence she felt was the real thing, the pure essence of the divine domain as distinct from and transcending the vessel.

Again, no. She felt Balthazar's magic, and she saw how Aurene used that magic matched the code of honor that she had learned and felt from the presence she knew before meeting Balthazar - the presence she presumed (correctly or incorrectly) to be Balthazar.

She felt the same magic in four forms:

  • The presence she found through the Zaishen
  • Balthazar
  • Balthazar's Sword
  • Aurene

But Balthazar's presence felt different than "the presence" or from Aurene. But she noted that Aurene's presence felt similar to "the presence".

There was never anything said about sensing Balthazar's divinity in all of Zafirah's Requiem or her dialogue in the story instances (as far as I could find).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@perilisk.1874 said:But she felt the old feeling in Aurene, which can only have come from the magic Aurene consumed from Balthazar. So, he must have still had some true divine magic -- not just Balthazar magic or corrupted divinity, but the sort of divine magic that would be transferred to a new god. I don't deny that Kormir claimed that he was stripped of title, and we directly saw that he was depowered somehow and fundamentally changed to lose his holy aura.

Balthazar retained some of his powers from before he was stripped of them but it was extremely weak to the point where he couldn't do much with it outside of reigniting Sohothin (from Rytlock's flashback). If he retained any of his divine powers, he would just as easily be able to escape his chains in The Mists but he couldn't, it took Rytlock physically breaking the chains that bound Balthazar for Balthazar to escape. The power that Zafirah would have sensed would have been Balthazar's flame which we know was very weak before he amplified it with the Bloodstone, which is why, as stated already above by @Konig Des Todes.2086 , Zafirah felt Balthazar's magic but it was drastically different.

She felt the magic of Balthazar's flame (which is attuned to Balthazar's sword and resides in Aurene) but it's not the same divine magic as what he originally had before he was stripped of his Godhood.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Then the title shouldn't have anything to do with him, since the titles of episodes are about the meat and critical points of the episodes, ever since S2 began. War Eternal will be about the plot of the episode, or a climactic moment in the episode. It's never been used to refer to an individual, object, or place (expansion titles, however, do) since S1.

Besides, with Balthazar gone, there's nothing "eternal" or "war" related to Menzies anymore. At best, a title relating to Menzies would be along the lines of "Shadow of War".

My guess would be that the title "The War Eternal" refers to how we're going to be reentering the Mists to fight Krak on that front, a place that anet constantly uses the idea of eternal conflict to describe in the form of both phrasing, battleground names, and in game events (such as fractals, the constantly repeating battle pouring out of the mists in Jahai Bluffs, etc.)

The Mists is a concept that anet uses a lot to add some sort of realistic explanation towards us farming the same content over and over again or killing the same people (and dying to them) over and over again in WvW/sPvP... And while it could be a coincidence that they used "Eternal War" to name the next episode, they could have named the chapter literally anything, so it would be strange if it was just a coincidence and the final chapter had nothing to do with the Mists, a place synonymous with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Considering a chunk of the Fissure of Woe is now on Tyria I am deeply interested in the potential consequences of that (as well as the other 2 realms) and hopefully the Devs will answer my question about it on the livestream tomorrow.(I'd like to know if these new islands are still connected to their associated God Realms as the appear to be in the game but it's not yet confirmed)

Taking into account that Abyssals and members of Menzies Shadow Army are active on the chunk of Fissure of Woe that landed in the ocean then I would say it's a solid bet that Menzies is very much still alive and well and may have even taken advantage of Balthazars absence and the lack of Heroes traveling to the Fissure of Woe to take it over at some point in the 250 years since Gw1.

If this chunk of the Fissure of Woe is still connected to Balthazars realm and if indeed Menzies is still alive and has taken over this realm then I would bet that the chunk of Fissure in the Unending Ocean could potentially act like an anchor point for Menzies to flood his Shadow Army into Tyria and start invading the mainland starting with the Scavengers Causeway.I'd very much like to play out that story arc in Gw2 at some point, maybe not part of the main story or living world but something more akin to the War in Kryta and Winds of Change stuff in Gw1, additional events that happen after the main story of Gw2 has ended and are potentially setting the stage for whatever comes after Gw2, be that another MMO or something else based in this world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@derd.6413 said:

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:Now we saw Fissure of Woe was overran by Menzies' Shadow Army. I bet if we are going to have a break on the dragons, we will have to deal with Balthazar's death and the new war god.

unlikely, menzies would be better suited as raid material then carry an entire LW season

There' s still one left this season, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Eeh if he shows up it will be in the same way as Dhuum. I doubt the very minor presence of a handful of his minions on a small chunk of land in the ocean will have much bearing on the plot either.

Dhuum was imprisoned, but Menzies is the most powerful non dragon villain for now. I can't see why should he be a raid boss instead of a main plot villain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...