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Should Arenanet go back to old dungeons to improve them for the new and old player experience?


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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:all they need is better rewards. anet nerfed them when fractals came out so people would play fractals. pretty horrible choice imo.

@"THE FORGE.7198" its GP/H (gold per hour) actually isnt bad, quit rant . The spreadsheet hasn't been updated since early 2018, but yeah it can be upwards of 30-50g per hour depending on available recipes and tour speed. Especially for people who don't have recipes, rising ecto and mat prices are good for dungeons. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/443563530860363788/451915847049543682/xn8m74f.png

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@Robban.1256 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:all they need is better rewards. anet nerfed them when fractals came out so people would play fractals. pretty horrible choice imo.

@"THE FORGE.7198" its GP/H (gold per hour) actually isnt bad, quit rant . The spreadsheet hasn't been updated since early 2018, but yeah it can be upwards of 30-50g per hour depending on available recipes and tour speed. Especially for people who don't have recipes, rising ecto and mat prices are good for dungeons.


huh, well if that's accurate I sit corrected.

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They are fine as is, as long as they are playable. The one thing that always annoys the hell out of me is condi immune essential objects. This isnt even about clear speed any more. It just renders a huge set of builds pretty much unusable in some dungeon paths.What I would rather like to see instead of a complete rework is new dungeons introduced with expansions. Give us one dungeon per expac release and one dungeon per LW season. This would already warm my PvE-corrupted heart.

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I would prefer if Story mode becomes soloable , rather increase the rewards and increase toxicity in dungeosn.

If that wont happened , then i would prefer :Complete 8 randoms dungeosn , and you ''complete'' a random daily fractal .If you have done 3/4 daily fractal , then the last one (hardest) will be surely to be unlocked .

a) The system doesnt alow you to type more than 5 words in LFG , to avoid message like:''Path 2 Bersekers , 80 lvl , 10k achivements only''

orIf a low lvl players joins the party , every1 else (exept the noobie) gets ''buff'' icon that explicit say ''dont kick him , or you wont unlocked the Fractal daily and there a random chance to unlocked 2 fractals''

Or c) If there are only 80 lvl players .... lets gie some instabilities to the bosses

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@kasoki.5180 said:Out of curiosity. Why are some people against challange mode. Something completely facultative.

Why are some people against something that has no impact on them but might make game enjoyable for others?Oh, but does it really have no impact on them? For one, challenge mode usualy means that any potential new cool stuff will end up there, not in the basic mode. It's like the case with PvE legendary armor - the main reason behind resistance to the idea of putting it in a content majority of pve players run is merely due to fact that raids exist. So, raids do have impact on the design of the rest of the game, and they have that impact just by existing.And that's even when ignoring the potential content lost because resources that could have been used for it were assigned to challenge mode.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"kasoki.5180" said:Out of curiosity. Why are some people against challange mode. Something completely facultative.

Why are some people against something that has no impact on them but might make game enjoyable for others?Oh, but does it really have no impact on them? For one, challenge mode usualy means that any potential new cool stuff will end up there, not in the basic mode. It's like the case with PvE legendary armor - the main reason behind resistance to the idea of putting it in a content majority of pve players run is merely due to fact that raids exist. So, raids do have impact on the design of the rest of the game, and they have that impact just by existing.And that's even when ignoring the potential content lost because resources that could have been used for it were assigned to challenge mode.

That is one big hypothetical situation you placed there. Nobody even mentioned rewards and reward system so it seems odd to imply these would be a problem for people who do not do the content anyway.

Also, nothing is added in the "basic mode" anyway so challenge mode getting new stuff is not having any impact for people who would do standard runs in the first place

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The only attractive aspect of the Dungeons is that it served to flush out some of the story around Destiny's Edge, parallel to your player's personal story.

Do I think that's cool? I sure do.

But say ANET decided to start adding new dungeons/fractals that contained story elements running parallel to the living world story, would that be cool? I think it would be.

And then you would see a flood of forums posts about players upset that they can't experience all the story content solo, and are forced to group....with other people....in a massively...multiplayer...online role playing game...

You can't make this stuff up.

So when you wonder about why we can't have nice things, peruse the forums for a bit, and you'll find your answer.

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@kasoki.5180 said:

@kasoki.5180 said:Out of curiosity. Why are some people against challange mode. Something completely facultative.

Why are some people against something that has no impact on them but might make game enjoyable for others?Oh, but does it really have no impact on them? For one, challenge mode usualy means that any potential new cool stuff will end up there, not in the basic mode. It's like the case with PvE legendary armor - the main reason behind resistance to the idea of putting it in a content majority of pve players run is merely due to fact that raids exist. So, raids do have impact on the design of the rest of the game, and they have that impact just by existing.And that's even when ignoring the potential content lost because resources that could have been used for it were assigned to challenge mode.

That is one big hypothetical situation you placed there. Nobody even mentioned rewards and reward systemOh, so you intend to introduce challenge mode whose rewards are the same as normal mode? Good luck then.

so it seems odd to imply these would be a problem for people who do not do the content anyway.If you haven't noticed, Envoy armor is a problem
primarily
for the people that do not raid. Those that do raid generally see no problem with it (for obvious reasons - it's not a problem to them).

Also, nothing is added in the "basic mode" anyway so challenge mode getting new stuff is not having any impact for people who would do standard runs in the first placeThe whole basis of this talk is revitalization of dugneons. I'd assume it would require adding stuff to basic mode as well. Also, see above.

BTW: In general, i'm all for "revitalizing" dungeons and making them more alive. Personally, i always vastly preferred them to fractals. I just don't think that introducing more challenge to them is a good idea - for people that would like that, we already have raids.

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@Robban.1256 said:

@"Woof.8246" said:I would prefer if Story mode becomes soloable , rather increase the rewards and increase toxicity in dungeosn.

you can solo them- (heres from TA story 2 years ago )
Arah solo P2 (2018) =

They likely mean soloable like living story instances. Most dungeons paths can be solo’d unless there’s some mechanic that forces you to have another player such as with CoE. It just requires a greater skill level and/or time.

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Why is there no option for "just leave dungeons be, they are shite"?In order to fix them, you'd need to redesign them from the ground up. That's not worth it, instead just give some more interesting fractals & raids, or maybe incorporate some dungeon ideas into a fractal.

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@coso.9173 said:I would settle for actual new dungeons. or at least many more fractals, we have 20 now, I wish we had like 50 or so.

Based on the recent releases, a new fractal was introduced every 6 months:Twilight Oasis - Nov 2017Deepstone: June 2018Siren's Reef: January 2019

Given all we know/suspect about ANET and the amount of resources they have to devote to producing content, acknowledging also that ANET needs to introduce new RAID wings as well as fractals, I personally feel 6 months between new fractals is reasonable.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@kasoki.5180 said:Out of curiosity. Why are some people against challange mode. Something completely facultative.

Why are some people against something that has no impact on them but might make game enjoyable for others?Oh, but does it really have no impact on them? For one, challenge mode usualy means that any potential new cool stuff will end up there, not in the basic mode. It's like the case with PvE legendary armor - the main reason behind resistance to the idea of putting it in a content majority of pve players run is merely due to fact that raids exist. So, raids do have impact on the design of the rest of the game, and they have that impact just by existing.And that's even when ignoring the potential content lost because resources that could have been used for it were assigned to challenge mode.

That is one big hypothetical situation you placed there. Nobody even mentioned rewards and reward systemOh, so you intend to introduce challenge mode whose rewards are the same as normal mode? Good luck then.

so it seems odd to imply these would be a problem for people who do not do the content anyway.If you haven't noticed, Envoy armor is a problem
primarily
for the people that do not raid. Those that do raid generally see no problem with it (for obvious reasons - it's not a problem to them).

Also, nothing is added in the "basic mode" anyway so challenge mode getting new stuff is not having any impact for people who would do standard runs in the first placeThe whole basis of this talk is revitalization of dugneons. I'd assume it would require adding stuff to basic mode as well. Also, see above.

BTW: In general, i'm all for "revitalizing" dungeons and making them more alive. Personally, i always vastly preferred them to fractals. I just don't think that introducing more challenge to them is a good idea - for people that would like that, we already have raids.

So its better to have system that gives nothing to nobody than a system that gives something to someone? Dont really understand why should design philosophy revolve around those who do not do the content, especially since it doesn't change anything for them. There will always be people complaining about something but not all complains are legitimate and not all complains are valid. There is no reason why Anet should pander to people that hold the game back because they dont want to do content.

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@"kasoki.5180" said:So its better to have system that gives nothing to nobody than a system that gives something to someone?Irrelevant question, as this is not the choice before us. The choice isn't "do nothing, or do CMs for dungeons". It's "where should we spend X amount of developer resources". That X here remains constant regardless of decision made - spending some of it on dungeon CMs means not spending it on something else. Personally, i'd rather see them spent on normal mode of dungeons than on CMs (if those were the only choices).

Dont really understand why should design philosophy revolve around those who do not do the content, especially since it doesn't change anything for them.Because it does change something - it derives the content they do play of developer resources. Of which, i have to remind you, there is a finite amount.

There will always be people complaining about something but not all complains are legitimate and not all complains are valid.True. Why do you think that your complains are more legitimate and valid than complains of others, though?

There is no reason why Anet should pander to people that hold the game back because they dont want to do content.Ah, but they do want to do content. Different content than you, that is.

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I would absolutely love for them to go through an completely overhauled dungeons, however I’m not expecting this to happen.

Ideally I’d like to see dungeons be changed to be solo content that can scale up to 5 players, so they have their own niche in the whole end game thing, but I’m honestly not expecting them to even acknowledge dungeons are still content.

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How the original dungeons were made and how the fractal instances are made are completely different. Dunegons are very much legacy content.

Updating dungeons as they are would be a monumental task and it would just as likely be easier for them to completely rebuild them from the ground up. Which as you can imagine would take a considerable amount of time and resources. Also not much would change.

They could add mechanics or make the bosses less cheesable, but they'd essentially be what they are now. The same content you've already played since launch. You'd get bored of it after the second time and probably complain it's too hard now and it's been ruined because they fixed a skip or something.

Let sleeping dogs lay. It's pretty good for what it is.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"Woof.8246" said:I would prefer if Story mode becomes soloable , rather increase the rewards and increase toxicity in dungeosn.

you can solo them- (heres from TA story 2 years ago )
Arah solo P2 (2018) =

They likely mean soloable like living story instances. Most dungeons paths can be solo’d unless there’s some mechanic that forces you to have another player such as with CoE. It just requires a greater skill level and/or time.

Well ppl want more difficult content then story, but they dont try or put the efford to either try raids (cms) /fractal CM's or solo/duo dungeons.

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

  • remake of old dungeons, ...introducing challenge mode along with new rewards.
  • remake of old dungeons, adding updated mechanics to the bosses,
  • keep the old dungeons ... [with] challenge mode for extra rewards.
  • fix.. the bugs, dungeons are fine as they are.

My vote: option 5: none of above. Invest the time into fractals or anything else that gains greater benefit from the same effort. Don't worry about bugs unless they prevent most people from completing the dungeon or can be exploited.

I was also looking for option 5, wholeheartedly gets my vote. I like dungeons exactly the way they are: still in the game, but absolutely untouched by the dev team. Take your fractals and be satisfied.

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@"kasoki.5180" said:But updated/new dungeon is that "what they could've done". Dungeones are the backbone of PvE in any MMO game. Saying that they should be doing something else instead of them makes no sense if they are broken/abandoned. Other games have no problems doing both dungeons and these hypothetical other things. This game is the odd one out.

Dungeons are the content they could've been doing and the game would be better off in the long run.

Also, these teams were doing on other non-GW2 projects. Those two teams could've contributed to anything GW2 related, and that also includes dungeons

Why, why is it so hard to understand that it's not about "dungeons" or "insert content name here" being central to what most of us consider to a proper MMO experience. The devs (and others in this thread) have pointed out that dungeons are an artifact of old code/tools, that it's a manpower allocation issue. The amount of work it would take to rework dungeons apparently takes away too much from the rest of the game, and I'm inclined to believe that as well. Yes, there might be some people returning to GW2 after being pulled from other projects. That still probably doesn't make dungeons worth the effort of renovating, there are myriad other issues to deal with instead of resurrecting old content they've already replaced.

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@voltaicbore.8012 said:

@"kasoki.5180" said:But updated/new dungeon is that "what they could've done". Dungeones are the backbone of PvE in any MMO game. Saying that they should be doing something else instead of them makes no sense if they are broken/abandoned. Other games have no problems doing both dungeons and these hypothetical other things. This game is the odd one out.

Dungeons are the content they could've been doing and the game would be better off in the long run.

Also, these teams were doing on other non-GW2 projects. Those two teams could've contributed to anything GW2 related, and that also includes dungeons

Why, why is it so hard to understand that it's not about "dungeons" or "insert content name here" being central to what most of us consider to a proper MMO experience. The devs (and others in this thread) have pointed out that dungeons are an artifact of old code/tools, that it's a manpower allocation issue. The amount of work it would take to rework dungeons apparently takes away too much from the rest of the game, and I'm inclined to believe that as well. Yes, there might be some people returning to GW2 after being pulled from other projects. That still probably doesn't make dungeons worth the effort of renovating, there are myriad other issues to deal with instead of resurrecting old content they've already replaced.

I assume most ppl in this thread know that developers arent working on dungeons due to different developer tool system that was used for dungeons. Just because i know why they aren't working on them doesn't mean that I can't have an opinion or preference that goes against it. Knowing why something isn't happening doesn't mean I have to personally agree with the status of the thing in question. You do know it is possible to have an opinion on something even though you are aware that due to technical difficulties it will most likely never happen?

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"kasoki.5180" said:So its better to have system that gives nothing to nobody than a system that gives something to someone?Irrelevant question, as this is not the choice before us. The choice isn't "do nothing, or do CMs for dungeons". It's "where should we spend X amount of developer resources". That X here remains constant regardless of decision made - spending some of it on dungeon CMs means not spending it on something else. Personally, i'd rather see them spent on normal mode of dungeons than on CMs (if those were the only choices).

Not really what I was talking about. I was talking about game modes and rewards available to players. In that regard it is "give nothing or give something" Also, you are taking issue of company resources to extremes just to prove a point. It is possible that multiple questions and choices are present in the same situation. Not sure how did you reach a conclusion that choice of allocations of resource must excludes choice of development of content. The two can go hand in hand perfectly

@Astralporing.1957 said:Because it does change something - it derives the content they do play of developer resources. Of which, i have to remind you, there is a finite amount.

As does every other thing in the game. Everything they do takes resources away from a possible alternative they could be doing. Every piece of content that they do means that a certain other hypothetical content won't be done. So what? That's normal.It's okay to say "I would rather have them use their resources for something else" but that in itself is not an argument for or against certain type of content. It's a statement of preference.

@Astralporing.1957 said:True. Why do you think that your complains are more legitimate and valid than complains of others, though?

You should re-read what I wrote. I never raised a complaint against any development idea or any possible alternative. Just because my opinions differ from yours doesn't mean I am presenting a complain. (You gave an example of people complaining about gear, which I said isn't necessarily a legitimate complain)

@Astralporing.1957 said:Ah, but they do want to do content. Different content than you, that is.There is bunch of different content in this game and its impossible that its all developed equally at the same time. Just because a person doesn't do content X doesn't mean that content X shouldn't be developed. Should maybe PvErs determine content creation of PvP and vice-versa? Should people that are into fashion wars give their two cents if creation of future fractals maybe takes away from the content that they do? Clearly no.

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Id rather them just go in and expand on them; Maybe something happens during the living world and causes some commotion in one. For example "A leyline has broken into The citadel of fire and awoken a titan!" And now we have a reason to go in there; And fight it for a in world instance. This would also come with a comprehensive zone rework as they have said that going forward; They might revisit old maps and breath new life into them rather than just adding new ones as they have been.

A return to arah, perhaps with the idea of purifying one of the dragon minions we bring down would be sick as hell considering its a plot thread from 2012 that we have never revisited. The ritual worked; And heck we got a friendly risen chicken out of it too, I feel like it would be a cool throw back for us to go in there maybe with a destroyer and help it be purified to see if it can work. That way we can make more like aueren whom are on our side to take the place of their corrupted kin; This would make for a great dungeon as fractals are used to tell of things in the past. This could be a part of the story and could even be something that has some paths for us to further explore; Maybe going deeper into arah and heck even seeing Zaithans body.

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I just picked the last option but I don't care about old bugs being fixed.I'm a veteran player as well, but Dungeons are and will always be an old and discarded content. From my part, I don't want any single resource (as little as it may be) spent on them, even to fix old bugs. I prefer them to be spent entirely on new contents: fractals, LSs, raids and open world maps.

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In all honesty I don’t think dungeons need to be reworked. I think they need to make new dungeons. Since fractals are the so called “new dungeons”. Then they need to make much more fractals. And more paths on fractals. That’s truly my only thing that I have against. Idc about instabilities but I just want more. What happens when there is actually 25 fractals? Do we stop there? Are we getting another tier? Can we get 10 man fractals?

Sorry for getting off topic. But let’s say Anet if actually is going to put some time into developing dungeons like they use to. I would want new. So each new episode of living world would add a dungeon into that map. And a few paths. That would truly be more acceptable to me.

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