Stand The Wall.6987 Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 @viquing.8254 said:No it wasnt' easy, average full channel pre-pacth did around 8k. and I play burst spec since 3 seasons now.well then you were doing it wrong lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 Well in plat2 you never fight people in underpants you know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartpains.7312 Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:its relatively easy to get 20k+ in pvp with no might or vuln. maybe with 12 stacks from mantra I cant remember.anyway I think a cast time decrease would do wonders for scepter # 3.Are we talking about scepter 3 before the nerf? because no getting that number is not easy at all, I mean the things for it to deal damage to gain might etc is not really hard in some cases "greatsword ambush while multi targets are there", but the damage as far as i played i didn't see those 20k on players, not saying that they don't happen, but mostly those that you can hit for that much, would probably die from gs ambush or something like that, and i still say in my case, i haven't seen 20k damage.As for the cast time decrease, they should have done that already without the need for someone to point at it, they didn't study their patches well. But i still think this won't fix the issue with the weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 @Heartpains.7312 said:Are we talking about scepter 3 before the nerf?pre patch scepter chrono in pvp. ive one shot a ton of ppl with it. berserker, marauder, no might or 12 stacks, fury req. ezpz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 Ok then, because it start making be little bored.With zerker amulet and scholar runes, you have :2375 power, 47.86 base critical chance, 225% base critical damage.Scepter base damage of 1,953 with a 5.32 coefficient.Basic damage formula is : (weapon strength power coef) / target armor.Medium armor is 2029 with no defensive gear. Let's take this for reference.Take 1000 as weapon strength.That mean with no crit : 1000 2375 5.32 / 2029 = 6227.With the hypothesis of 100% crit : 6227 2.25 = 14k.With full superiority complex and 100% crit : 6227 2.5 = 15 562.5.With full superiority complex and 100% crit and 5% scholar runes and 5% egotism and 10% danger time : (6227 2.6)1.1 = 17809.22.Then with power stacks and vulnerability stacks, you can reach 20k +.So can you explain me how you easily put 22k pre-update please.And I'm not even talking about opponent damage reduction (like protection or traits.), neither about the weakness uptime many opponent will put on you.In my case, with superiority complex and less than 100% crit, I'm finding the 8k average I talk about.So the ideal case of scepter op who one shot everyone look pretty but was far to be a reality as long as we aren't fighting mousecliquer full zerk guys in WvW.Not even saying that telegraphied laser is one of the most visible burst in this game.And post-update with the 50% nerf, the output is ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 @Stand The Wall.6987 said:@viquing.8254 said:20k in WvW with food on a target with 25 vuln with a mesmer with 25 power, 75 % crit chance, 215% crit damage ?its relatively easy to get 20k+ in pvp with no might or vuln. maybe with 12 stacks from mantra I cant remember.anyway I think a cast time decrease would do wonders for scepter # 3.That's literally mathematically impossible now. No one is getting 20k in SPvP unless they have 25 might and the enemy has 25 vuln. And even then I'm not sure. The most I got on a light training golem with 12 stacks of might from channeling Mantra of Pain, fury, Power Lock to apply Slow, Chronomancer with the power crit traits, and all the crit damage traits in Domination and Dueling trees and a Berserker's amulet was 7.7k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartpains.7312 Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 To be honest, I use full berserk/Marauder most of the time and i never saw 20k, i play mirage so having 25 stack of might is not an issue and i do apply vulnerability, 20k I think i saw on guards, but on players I guess it just didn't happen.Anyway they could just have reverted their changes and reduced its damage by the amount that they increased when they increased the cast time as well, they didn't need to go to the 50% and then even keep the cast time same as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 @Heartpains.7312 said:To be honest, I use full berserk/Marauder most of the time and i never saw 20k, i play mirage so having 25 stack of might is not an issue and i do apply vulnerability, 20k I think i saw on guards, but on players I guess it just didn't happen.Anyway they could just have reverted their changes and reduced its damage by the amount that they increased when they increased the cast time as well, they didn't need to go to the 50% and then even keep the cast time same as it is.Chrono with the crit damage traits hits considerable harder than Mirage on power. Scepter beam should just apply 2 or 3 stacks of confusion per damage pulse and do very very little for flat damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 @mortrialus.3062 said:That's literally mathematically impossible now. No one is getting 20k in SPvP unless they have 25 might and the enemy has 25 vuln. And even then I'm not sure. The most I got on a light training golem with 12 stacks of might from channeling Mantra of Pain, fury, Power Lock to apply Slow, Chronomancer with the power crit traits, and all the crit damage traits in Domination and Dueling trees and a Berserker's amulet was 7.7k. it is literally mathematically impossible now. the convo was in the context of pre nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flog.3485 Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 @"viquing.8254" said:So we end up with a 12 sec CD, 2,25 sec channelling skill who does 3-4k average with zerker gear on a burst build.While Ghastly claws do 2 times more in 1,75 sec on 8 sec CD.And I didn't even mention other burst class with same gear instant output like rev who can instant 6-8k aoe with way more skills.But it's ok we are mesmer and shouldn't output something with our weapon because it's "normal" we have strong illusions to confuse the poor casual who face us ...kitten teamfight class whiners ...Just wondering though: do these values include easy access to might and quickness through the illusion traitline ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartpains.7312 Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 @mortrialus.3062 said:Chrono with the crit damage traits hits considerable harder than Mirage on power. Scepter beam should just apply 2 or 3 stacks of confusion per damage pulse and do very very little for flat damage. Aware of the chrono part, as for scepter 3 part, I think it is not so bad to have that idea, but to be honest other mesmer's weapons needs to have some changes to them, swords and so on, if we are gonna make scepter really aimed for conditions only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 @flog.3485 said:@"viquing.8254" said:So we end up with a 12 sec CD, 2,25 sec channelling skill who does 3-4k average with zerker gear on a burst build.While Ghastly claws do 2 times more in 1,75 sec on 8 sec CD.And I didn't even mention other burst class with same gear instant output like rev who can instant 6-8k aoe with way more skills.But it's ok we are mesmer and shouldn't output something with our weapon because it's "normal" we have strong illusions to confuse the poor casual who face us ...kitten teamfight class whiners ...Just wondering though: do these values include easy access to might and quickness through the illusion traitline ?Nop netheir condi clear to counter weakness or boon rip to clear protection.Moreover if you take quickness and might with illusion : might ins't worth it with no chronophantasma on a power build. With chronophantasma, you have to drop a sustain trait line (basically no condi clear.) or duel/domi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skcamow.3527 Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 @"Heartpains.7312" said:Anyway they could just have reverted their changes and reduced its damage by the amount that they increased when they increased the cast time as well, they didn't need to go to the 50% and then even keep the cast time same as it is.This is the biggest problem with what happened. Before the buff they needed to make the skill less clunky to use as I brought up in my facetious thread https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/53163/scepter-nerf. There was no "nerf", just felt that way with the increased cast time. Was clunky enough before that.It's the run of the mill balance approach we've seen so many times on so many other skills/traits.buff dmg > nerf another aspect of the skill > determine dmg is too high > revert dmg buff > leave other nerf intact :confounded: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praqtos.9035 Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 @skcamow.3527 said:@"Heartpains.7312" said:Anyway they could just have reverted their changes and reduced its damage by the amount that they increased when they increased the cast time as well, they didn't need to go to the 50% and then even keep the cast time same as it is.This is the biggest problem with what happened. Before the buff they needed to make the skill less clunky to use as I brought up in my facetious thread https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/53163/scepter-nerf. There was no "nerf", just felt that way with the increased cast time. Was clunky enough before that.It's the run of the mill balance approach we've seen so many times on so many other skills/traits.buff dmg > nerf another aspect of the skill > determine dmg is too high > revert dmg buff > leave other nerf intact :confounded:Anet buffed it to nerf it and make it even worse than it was. Great job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroatheist.9031 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 @"viquing.8254" said:Ok then, because it start making be little bored.With zerker amulet and scholar runes, you have :2375 power, 47.86 base critical chance, 225% base critical damage.Scepter base damage of 1,953 with a 5.32 coefficient.Basic damage formula is : (weapon strength power coef) / target armor.Medium armor is 2029 with no defensive gear. Let's take this for reference.Take 1000 as weapon strength.That mean with no crit : 1000 2375 5.32 / 2029 = 6227.With the hypothesis of 100% crit : 6227 2.25 = 14k.With full superiority complex and 100% crit : 6227 2.5 = 15 562.5.With full superiority complex and 100% crit and 5% scholar runes and 5% egotism and 10% danger time : (6227 2.6)1.1 = 17809.22.Then with power stacks and vulnerability stacks, you can reach 20k +.So can you explain me how you easily put 22k pre-update please.And I'm not even talking about opponent damage reduction (like protection or traits.), neither about the weakness uptime many opponent will put on you.In my case, with superiority complex and less than 100% crit, I'm finding the 8k average I talk about.So the ideal case of scepter op who one shot everyone look pretty but was far to be a reality as long as we aren't fighting mousecliquer full zerk guys in WvW.Not even saying that telegraphied laser is one of the most visible burst in this game.And post-update with the 50% nerf, the output is ludicrous.While I agree that "easy 20k+" is an exaggeration, you've done your calculations wrong.Superiority complex is multiplicative to crit modifier, so that should be:14k * 1.25 = 17.5kAll damage modifiers are multiplicative, and danger time acts just like superiority complex, so adding danger time, scholar runes, and and egotism looks like:16.1k 1.05 1.05 * 1.1 = 21.2kThen add a wee bit of might/vuln and you crack 22k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 @Pyroatheist.9031 said:@"viquing.8254" said:Ok then, because it start making be little bored.With zerker amulet and scholar runes, you have :2375 power, 47.86 base critical chance, 225% base critical damage.Scepter base damage of 1,953 with a 5.32 coefficient.Basic damage formula is : (weapon strength power coef) / target armor.Medium armor is 2029 with no defensive gear. Let's take this for reference.Take 1000 as weapon strength.That mean with no crit : 1000 2375 5.32 / 2029 = 6227.With the hypothesis of 100% crit : 6227 2.25 = 14k.With full superiority complex and 100% crit : 6227 2.5 = 15 562.5.With full superiority complex and 100% crit and 5% scholar runes and 5% egotism and 10% danger time : (6227 2.6)1.1 = 17809.22.Then with power stacks and vulnerability stacks, you can reach 20k +.So can you explain me how you easily put 22k pre-update please.And I'm not even talking about opponent damage reduction (like protection or traits.), neither about the weakness uptime many opponent will put on you.In my case, with superiority complex and less than 100% crit, I'm finding the 8k average I talk about.So the ideal case of scepter op who one shot everyone look pretty but was far to be a reality as long as we aren't fighting mousecliquer full zerk guys in WvW.Not even saying that telegraphied laser is one of the most visible burst in this game.And post-update with the 50% nerf, the output is ludicrous.While I agree that "easy 20k+" is an exaggeration, you've done your calculations wrong.Superiority complex is multiplicative to crit modifier, so that should be:14k * 1.25 = 17.5kAll damage modifiers are multiplicative, and danger time acts just like superiority complex, so adding danger time, scholar runes, and and egotism looks like:16.1k 1.05 1.05 * 1.1 = 21.2kThen add a wee bit of might/vuln and you crack 22k. thanks for these precisions, first time I do this kind of calculations because I was far to reach thoses value in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holly lyn.2173 Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 the numbers may be one thing but I have NEVER one shot ANYONE before with scepter3, but I GET ONE SHOT EVERY night in WVW from rapid fire soulbeasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 @holly lyn.2173 said:the numbers may be one thing but I have NEVER one shot ANYONE before with scepter3, but I GET ONE SHOT EVERY night in WVW from rapid fire soulbeasts.All this t alk about SB's are making me itch to change my druid into SB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 In general I would say scepter is still and always has been a clinky awkward weapon on Mesmer. It's not easy to use effectively but after other nerfs and changes for many it has become the best choice for many situations. It some times felt like the last "good" option on mirage. Granted the 5 target skill aspect of confusing images typically hits 1 target without allot of maneuvering around to line up opponents between you and your target.The reason I say I still prefer it is: Axe has always forced the player to get into mele and become exposed fighting and has been nerfed a few times. It also leaves you in the dust of your opponents when they run away because it lacks mobility like sword. Sword is a power weapon and not the best option for condi all it offers is the leap and a clunky evade that forces you stand in one place and has an animation that outlasts the evade. Staff can work on mirage, but most scepter mirages will defeat that staff mirage so IMO its not the best choice for a roamer in wvw. GS is power and wouldnt make sense to consider for condi mirage. If you want to run power you may as well run Chrono and benefit from the crits and phants they get.@holly lyn.2173 said:the numbers may be one thing but I have NEVER one shot ANYONE before with scepter3, but I GET ONE SHOT EVERY night in WVW from rapid fire soulbeasts.This sounds like honesty to me. This sounds familiar to me.I think the nerf to scepter 3 after all the other nerfs and along with the evasive mirror nerf was a poor choice. I think if Anet actually wants to balance Mesmer they need to address elite spec traits. The easiest path I see to trying to balance things is to reduce chrono's ability to generate phants and to crit to make it on par with core and mirage. Then tune the core trait lines and weapons in ways that give each elite spec options that have trade offs that don't directly weaken core Mesmer usefulness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Nerf was needed...as was the DPS nerf to axe (not condi but the raw damage) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nox.6785 Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:@holly lyn.2173 said:the numbers may be one thing but I have NEVER one shot ANYONE before with scepter3, but I GET ONE SHOT EVERY night in WVW from rapid fire soulbeasts.All this t alk about SB's are making me itch to change my druid into SBEh just until no downed state is gone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 The cooldown change to me just highlights the "going in circles" balance in this situation - was a gradual power creep of reducing it to silly low cooldown and now bumped it back up to 8s...I hope future patches begin to offer more meaningful changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Nerf was needed...as was the DPS nerf to axe (not condi but the raw damage)No it wasn't needed, not in a world where other class with same gear output 3k to 8k instant or with half channel time than scepter 3 on more skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackmonster.2790 Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 I am so sad what happened to axe. I don't even consider it worth using in non-pve anymore, maybe i could get it to half decent if i tryharded.Also, every now and then you hear people saying staff is overpowered but if you actually play staff you will learn quite fast it's unreliable and you simply cannot output good dps on it. To use staff for any time of decent dps you really need to be able to spawn TONS of clones it requires so many traits and abilties to even function okay, and it's way too shlow it can't hit anyone if they move away. It was almost reliant on illusionary ambush to break into good for that few seconds, but with the insane nerf to cooldown it's not a good ability anymore.Scepter it's kind of okay, keep giving it nerfs.What i dislike maybe the most is that they split weapons so it's pretty much not worth it in non-pve while being good for pve, etc, and come on i love axe mirage but they just see fit to gut it because they can?? And now what it's, arrrghh.It's the typical case of hard to play against mechanics(for nubs) and continued crying from people who don't know what they are crying about just targeting mesmer overall and devs just nerf every aspects because they don't know either. FFS.I've been playing staff - Scepter/Torch for awhile but i find myself most just not swapping into staff at all because the dps.. yea... So i think today i will start looking into axe/torch - Scepter/Focus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted May 6, 2019 Share Posted May 6, 2019 @viquing.8254 said:@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Nerf was needed...as was the DPS nerf to axe (not condi but the raw damage)No it wasn't needed, not in a world where other class with same gear output 3k to 8k instant or with half channel time than scepter 3 on more skills.This actually meant to say it was NOT needed lol. My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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