downside after years of power shiro

[Arkantos.7460]

" If I dont have the power like in this build I dont play it"so the eternal struggle for more sustain goes furher and the hope for no more nerfs on this build never endsAnet will not buff powershiro in any ways and ppl are dissapointed after every patch because they cant handle or change their playstyle for any other roles of this classI think we need to learn other ways of playstyle for this class

[LucianDK.8615]

Well Ancient Echo is kinda new. I always hear about how Herald is considered useless because others can contribute all the boons. And its rarely you can truly make use of all your utilities without tanking your damage due to lack of energy. But yeah, the cd is probably too high on Ancient Echo to truly matter.

[DonArkanio.6419]

This is very true. People seem to be closed just for the Shiro. But Shiro isn't the Revenant. Just learn other builds to play - and trust me, they work too.

[Justine.6351]

People that play power revenant are playing a power build, not a revenant. They are not going to just switch from shiro to memeing a ventari healer if power revenant sours.

[Shao.7236]

And that couldn't be anymore true. People that play Shiro Glint is the least Revenant way to enjoy the profession, even they do not recommend to play around upkeep with Glint in use guides of the build, which is one of the strong aspects of the elite in the first place.

[otto.5684]

@DonArkanio.6419 said:This is very true. People seem to be closed just for the Shiro. But Shiro isn't the Revenant. Just learn other builds to play - and trust me, they work too.

It is not, but extra dodge, unblockable, quickness, leap and superspeed will be dropped for.. Jailis? Or Venturi?! I do not think I need to go into in-depth analysis why this would not work.

@Shao.7236 said:And that couldn't be anymore true. People that play Shiro Glint is the least Revenant way to enjoy the profession, even they do not recommend to play around upkeep with Glint in use guides of the build, which is one of the strong aspects of the elite in the first place.

Enjoyment is relative. However; people gravitate towards effectiveness. I like condi rev much more than power, but it does not work in PvP, and thus I do not play it.

In PvP, Ventari is under examination with the most recent changes. But if you are not using power shiro/herald s/s and staff (hammer wvw) what you are playing is not only not competitive, it is also not viable. No one is stopping anyone from playing what they like, but that does not make it functional.

[narcx.3570]

@DonArkanio.6419 said:This is very true. People seem to be closed just for the Shiro. But Shiro isn't the Revenant. Just learn other builds to play - and trust me, they work too.

Mobility is probably the most important thing to have in the current state of this game (spvp/wvw roaming)...

Shiro represents basically all of a revenant's real/usable/reliable mobility (aside from death strike and wasting sotm on gap closing/escape)...Shiro will always be meta unless mobility suddenly stops mattering or other legends come with greater mobility to replace it.

Even if I was going to meme around with something like Condi Rev, I would probably still play shiro--in fact, that (shiro/mallyx) used to be a somewhat meta sPvP build way back in the day before everything was power crept into insanity.

[vilesoldier.9826]

(PvP and WvW perspective since that's all I play, I'm sure the jack-of-all-trades gimmick doesn't do Rev any favors in PvE)I mean honestly you can play whatever you like, and with enough practice, you can get some good results with a lot of tools Revenants have. But it really comes down to, like Otto pointed out, efficacy. Of all the ways you can play Revenant (bunker, healer, dps, condi, hybrid, etc), a power shiro herald is objectively what will reliably get you the best results in PvP and WvW. And that's why it's been THE meta build for Rev forever.

But on the other hand, that doesn't completely discredit the other things Rev can bring to the table. Which is why I disagree with this statement,

@otto.5684 said:In PvP, Ventari is under examination with the most recent changes. But if you are not using power shiro/herald s/s and staff (hammer wvw) what you are playing is not only not competitive, it is also not viable. No one is stopping anyone from playing what they like, but that does not make it functional.Ofcourse we all know powercreep and far lower viability in other legends is what's been pidgeon-holing Rev into a strictly power build meta, but if you put in serious effort to practice with some other builds, they can be very much competitive. A condi Herald, for example, traited to sustain like crazy (seriously I can't believe we can get perma +500 regen) and bounce condis back can win more matchups than most give it credit for. But again, that comes with serious practice, off-meta forces you to play to your strengths perfectly just to keep up with other meta builds that have it easier. And more people are becoming ok with that tradeoff.

It's clear that more and more Revs are getting tired of the same Rev meta and trying to cobble together builds that targets different niches other than nuking single targets. I'm in no way saying that any are rivaling the meta Rev, but they freshen up the class and some are fairly competitive as well.

TL;DR Off-meta Rev is hard, still competitive, but it's not meta.

[Buran.3796]

@"Arkantos.7460" said:" If I dont have the power like in this build I dont play it"so the eternal struggle for more sustain goes furher and the hope for no more nerfs on this build never endsAnet will not buff powershiro in any ways and ppl are dissapointed after every patch because they cant handle or change their playstyle for any other roles of this classI think we need to learn other ways of playstyle for this class

I've tried several builds in the past year and half but at the end every comes back to Glint/Shiro with swords, staff and occasionally the hammer. Condition builds lacks sustain and/or mobility, and bunker builds barely do damage on top of being very mediocre at tanking (compared to what Warriors/Eles/Engineers/Guardians bring to the table when specced to be bruisers). Doesn't help that the rest of our weapons are garbage outside PvE.

Guardians can afford to change playstyle, they are versatile and have a large array of viable weapons with customizable utility slots; even with subpar builds (burn core, burst trapper, symbolic )... they can get fun. Meanwhile the only changes in Revenant in the last 18 months were nerfs in vulnerability proccing, removing quickness from Impossible Odds and random stuff in traits, traitlines and skills that no one uses (the same as ANet keeps pushing Spirit Weapons while Guardian players can't stop laughing hysterically at it). Sorry but is not a "ppl are dissapointed after every patch because they cant handle or change their playstyle for any other roles of this class", I didn't changed my main to Rev to play a support healer, nor a subpar tank, much less to wield weapons wich are useless in player vs player, or to invoke pets.

Finally, I would like to adress another (minor) problem: people keep saying that you can use any build in PvE, and have fun at it, but I disagree: I see a lot of videos of players as Lord Hizen soloing champions, bounties and hard/dangerous foes in PvE, but most of the times they use classes as Guardians, Warriors, Mesmers, Eles... Almost never a Rev. Known why? Because power Rev PvE damage/sustain ratio is weak and condition Rev only works while carried in a group, to prevent their demise.

[Catchyfx.5768]

@narcx.3570 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:This is very true. People seem to be closed just for the Shiro. But Shiro isn't the Revenant. Just learn other builds to play - and trust me, they work too.

Mobility is probably the most important thing to have in the current state of this game (spvp/wvw roaming)...

Shiro represents basically all of a revenant's real/usable/reliable mobility (aside from death strike and wasting sotm on gap closing/escape)...Shiro will always be meta unless mobility suddenly stops mattering or other legends come with greater mobility to replace it.

Thisi would love to play jalis in pvp/wvw roamin. But you need to invest heavily in to toughness and stack defences in traits because I became very static.

Another thing is some skills in jalis(for example) are heavy coast/CD but actualy aren't that strong. Heal is great, taunt is kinda okeyish, jalis road is cost heavy for what it does, ult is really outdated. Hammers are ok.And the cast times, who in the hell have casttimes these days outside of rev and necro..?Third thing is. Thanks to stacked traits,runes,armor for surviving avarage stuff out there, you dont do any dmg. Only if you get 25might than maybe. But still nothing special.Revenant just isn't created for warrior style like combat. Thats why shiro is best. Dont need defences thanks to evades and blinks. And every spell cost is worth it. Whole kit is usable. And you can do dmg. Not tickle while be static.

Lot of classes are static but they made out for it, invis, blocks, usable ranged attacks.But that is nothing for rev with what we have right now. Sure some rev gods can make those builds work against us noobs or avarages Joes. But for us mortals is shiro still the only way(for power revs).

[HeyHeyHey.9453]

@Buran.3796 said:condition Rev only works while carried in a group, to prevent their demise.

If you think condi rev is only good in a group then you’re either bad at condi rev solo or don’t know it’s full potential. Just because some people don’t post solos with it doesn’t mean it can’t do it (or hasn’t done it). Perhaps the reason people don’t post solo videos of “hard encounters” of rev very often is that not many people play the class? And those who do (and can perform at a high level with it) don’t necessarily post their stuff. Like I rarely have an issue soloing most things with condi ren.

[Buran.3796]

@"HeyHeyHey.9453" said:

If you think condi rev is only good in a group then you’re either bad at condi rev solo or don’t know it’s full potential. Just because some people don’t post solos with it doesn’t mean it can’t do it (or hasn’t done it). Perhaps the reason people don’t post solo videos of “hard encounters” of rev very often is that not many people play the class? And those who do (and can perform at a high level with it) don’t necessarily post their stuff. Like I rarely have an issue soloing most things with condi ren.

Single star so I'll asume that perhaps you're relatively new to the forums or maybe not very vocal. I'll summarize you the track/pattern of the class since HoT: 1) most of the best players with Rev were mostly PvP/WvW ones; 2) a lot of them no longer play the game; 3) aside from some Rev soloing some high fractal from time to time I never saw this class performing solo PvE task even remotely close to this:

...And that is a Weaver but saw Hizen doing pretty much the same with two different Spellbreaker builds, one Firebrand, one Mirage, one Scourge... I can find tons of good PvP/WvW Revenant (mostly Herald) videos, but when you search for open world PvE solos or dungeon speedruns you hardly see examples portrayed with this class. Which isn't a suprise: Herald has low damage over time and the condition builds has no defenses and low mobility (you can equip a staff, but that drops your damage close to 0).

...So maybe you're right and the low player pool for this class explains the lack of media; or maybe people avoid it due isn't particulary gifted for the most played portion of the game (PvE). But my point is not about "can't be played", but about "the same can be done better with other, less clunky, classes".

[HeyHeyHey.9453]

@Buran.3796 said:

@"HeyHeyHey.9453" said:

If you think condi rev is only good in a group then you’re either bad at condi rev solo or don’t know it’s full potential. Just because some people don’t post solos with it doesn’t mean it can’t do it (or hasn’t done it). Perhaps the reason people don’t post solo videos of “hard encounters” of rev very often is that not many people play the class? And those who do (and can perform at a high level with it) don’t necessarily post their stuff. Like I rarely have an issue soloing most things with condi ren.

Single star so I'll asume that perhaps you're relatively new to the forums or maybe not very vocal. I'll summarize you the track/pattern of the class since HoT: 1) most of the best players with Rev were mostly PvP/WvW ones; 2) a lot of them no longer play the game; 3) aside from some Rev soloing some high fractal from time to time I never saw this class performing solo PvE task even remotely close to this:

...And that is a Weaver but saw Hizen doing pretty much the same with two different Spellbreaker builds, one Firebrand, one Mirage, one Scourge... I can find tons of good PvP/WvW Revenant (mostly Herald) videos, but when you search for open world PvE solos or dungeon speedruns you hardly see examples portrayed with this class. Which isn't a suprise: Herald has low damage over time and the condition builds has no defenses and low mobility (you can equip a staff, but that drops your damage close to 0).

...So maybe you're right and the low player pool for this class explains the lack of media; or maybe people avoid it due isn't particulary gifted for the most played portion of the game (PvE). But my point is not about "can't be played", but about "the same can be done better with other, less clunky, classes".

Your initial point claimed the idea that “any build can be played in pve and have fun with it” was false for Revenant. You also claimed that “condi ren lacks the ability to do well solo outside of being supported by a group.” Both are just false based on my own experience. Fun is obviously subjective and condi ren, while maybe not the best choice for soloing content if you’re speedrunning, certainly doesn’t need a group to support it to do well or solo a vast majority of pve. If your point is truly “it can be played solo, but isn’t optimal” that’s fairly counter to what you said earlier. Perhaps your own words are the reason I got the wrong impression? ?

[Shao.7236]

@otto.5684 said:Enjoyment is relative. However; people gravitate towards effectiveness. I like condi rev much more than power, but it does not work in PvP, and thus I do not play it.

In PvP, Ventari is under examination with the most recent changes. But if you are not using power shiro/herald s/s and staff (hammer wvw) what you are playing is not only not competitive, it is also not viable. No one is stopping anyone from playing what they like, but that does not make it functional.

You'd be surprised by either of these alternatives especially Mallyx depending on the teams you face, however yes Ventari does need a stunbreak from Purifying Essences with about 5 conditions to be removed rather than 3 to be even with the rest. One of the greatest favors Anet could do to Ventari is giving players the ability to attach the tablet and follow them via trait or when it is first summoned, once commanded it no longer follows and needs to be broke or out of range because that's the greatest issue with it. Not that I don't believe in people ability to use the tablet but usually nobody cares enough to get healed from while it's actually extremely potent.