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Looking at thieves..I realize the scope of nerf threads...


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Basically the nerf threads about a specific profession will stop when it will be no more deemed a threat by the average playerbase ( average skill level) of every other class , to mention that at this stage even being considered an annoyance is enough to warrant a long list of nerf threads.

Prior to GW2 launch during August 2012 , all the GW fanbase could be found on the fan site GW Guru if I am not wrong, it was quite good, one feature that I particulary enjoyed was the insta temporary ban of whoever started a nerf thread just for the sake of complaining, something the GW2 forum desperately needs given the current climate as the GW2 forum has devolved in just another typical MMO forum.

Dear GW2 players...I have a simple question : if you ask to nerf that aspect of that profession, the very aspect that makes that profession a threat to the one you're playing...how exactly the nerfed profession will be able to compete against your profession afterward?

Few examples here :-People ask to nerf pet damage , longbow damage , reduce multipliers , reduce boon application...then what the ranger supposed to do? how it can survive and kill your class?-People ask to nerf sword evades of weaver...now we have a low HP class at melee range with no other form of protection against aoe/range pressure other than some 2-3k healing-People ask to nerf blocks on guardian...how is the class supposed to survive pressure given its low HP?-People ask to nerf warrior sustain...how the class supposed to be played at melee range when its sustain is already mediocre in mediocre hands?

Looking at thieves..I realize the scope of nerf threads......there is no scope other than knocking a profession out of viability

Pettiness.....Hypocrisy.....Short sighted are the only words that come to mind whenever I read the GW2 pvp forum, it's truly a shame that the majority of players can't see anything outside the boundaries of their own ego

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Congratulations, you've uncovered the true nature of the forums usual userbase.There are some suggestions in the profession specific forums at least about how things can be changed while shaving some of the more ridiculous aspects of a given profession, but you probably cannot expect that sort of measured approach here regularly. Its far easier to cry that something is overperforming and hope/suggest harsh nerfs without compromise or consideration till that thing is non-functional or the class/spec drops from the meta entirely more than anything else. It does give me some mild relief sometimes that the Devs probably take a lot of the posts here with a Vial of Salt when it comes to their balancing..

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@Euthymias.7984 said:Congratulations, you've uncovered the true nature of the forums usual userbase.There are some suggestions in the profession specific forums at least about how things can be changed while shaving some of the more ridiculous aspects of a given profession, but you probably cannot expect that sort of measured approach here regularly. Its far easier to cry that something is overperforming and hope/suggest harsh nerfs without compromise or consideration till that thing is non-functional or the class/spec drops from the meta entirely more than anything else. It does give me some mild relief sometimes that the Devs probably take a lot of the posts here with a Vial of Salt when it comes to their balancing..

They did make an Item called Vial Of Salt and I believe it took a lot of tears to make it...

Theres also a llama section in the lobby talking about PvP players aggression and hyperboles.

Id like Anet to make more items or nick nacks that take the piss out of us or make a mockery of us, its a nice chuckle... Until they do it using balance and bugs, im 90%% sure they broke DD Tempest last patch on purpose to annoy me ?(If Earth overload is nerfed next patch ill know it to be true)

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The threads about professions will stop until healthy competitiveness fun designs and mechanics are implemented for all player base including all skill levels players.

Here is a video of Thief being freely rewarded for taking risks and being reward at the same time and even repeating it over and over again (resetting fights without having any consequences whatsoever)Important (Thief player in the video is not to be blamed for being given a toxic design profession)

Let me ask you; why is rewarding toxicity instead of nerfing it-minimizing it, is not a threat?

Why Reward and Risk at the same time? and not Risk than Reward?

Why reward toxicity instead of minimize it? why no consequences for toxicity?

Arheundel, i'm sure you and i including many that nerfing is in actions, not in writing.

'Actions speaks louder than words'

Until thanHave a good day

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Except e.g. in the case of Soulbeasts - playing one myself - I realise how out of proportions that class is. What it can do requires no special mastery other than: press elite (even that is not necessary in most cases), activate Sic'Em and press 2 = target is dead, whatever that is, in most instances, unless it procs some auto-invul or Signet of Stone. Auto attacks hit for an average of 5 - 7k against most classes, which equals to an average of 3 - 4 hits before someone dies at very long range. Classes like Necros don't stand even the slightest of chances. Only very high mobility classes may outplay me, and even that only if I choose to engage in closer combat, as due to super high range I pick my fights. I could play it safe all day by only engaging from walls, cliffs, or any other ground that keeps me away from harm. It's like being on a picnic.

But I agree with you that most of the time people just come to vent after playing miserably against XYZ and their posts blatantly lack a grain of insight.

Above all, there needs to be a PTS and extensive testing done before acceptable values are discovered. Atm. there's so much power creep it's a mess. Before you blame the community, look to the company, who took a stance to ignore real issues and focus on generating revenue by adding, not correctly adjusting content. Again we'll have a new mount.......... like, what for? Soon we'll have more mounts that there are available key binds on a gaming mouse. And with new skills more passives, more interactions the servers won't be able to handle, and it will be a cluster fok that will introduce more skill lag in WvW and so on.

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@Inoki.6048 said:Except e.g. in the case of Soulbeasts - playing one myself - I realise how out of proportions that class is. What it can do requires no special mastery other than: press elite (even that is not necessary in most cases), activate Sic'Em and press 2 = target is dead, whatever that is, in most instances, unless it procs some auto-invul or Signet of Stone. Auto attacks hit for an average of 5 - 7k against most classes, which equals to an average of 3 - 4 hits before someone dies at very long range. Classes like Necros don't stand even the slightest of chances. Only very high mobility classes may outplay me, and even that only if I choose to engage in closer combat, as due to super high range I pick my fights. I could play it safe all day by only engaging from walls, cliffs, or any other ground that keeps me away from harm. It's like being on a picnic.

But I agree with you that most of the time people just come to vent after playing miserably against XYZ and their posts blatantly lack a grain of insight.

Above all, there needs to be a PTS and extensive testing done before acceptable values are discovered. Atm. there's so much power creep it's a mess. Before you blame the community, look to the company, who took a stance to ignore real issues and focus on generating revenue by adding, not correctly adjusting content. Again we'll have a new mount.......... like, what for? Soon we'll have more mounts that there are available key binds on a gaming mouse. And with new skills more passives, more interactions the servers won't be able to handle, and it will be a cluster fok that will introduce more skill lag in WvW and so on.

I am not against nerfs..those are necessary to keep the game alive, I am against nerfs that remove a playstyle/spec from viability. In the end of the days we're still talking a ranger: a class supposed to be a ranged threat and we cannot remove that otherwise the class becomes useless

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Inoki.6048 said:Except e.g. in the case of Soulbeasts - playing one myself - I realise how out of proportions that class is. What it can do requires no special mastery other than: press elite (even that is not necessary in most cases), activate Sic'Em and press 2 = target is dead, whatever that is, in most instances, unless it procs some auto-invul or Signet of Stone. Auto attacks hit for an average of 5 - 7k against most classes, which equals to an average of 3 - 4 hits before someone dies at very long range. Classes like Necros don't stand even the slightest of chances. Only very high mobility classes may outplay me, and even that only if I choose to engage in closer combat, as due to super high range I pick my fights. I could play it safe all day by only engaging from walls, cliffs, or any other ground that keeps me away from harm. It's like being on a picnic.

But I agree with you that most of the time people just come to vent after playing miserably against XYZ and their posts blatantly lack a grain of insight.

Above all, there needs to be a PTS and extensive testing done before acceptable values are discovered. Atm. there's so much power creep it's a mess. Before you blame the community, look to the company, who took a stance to ignore real issues and focus on generating revenue by adding, not correctly adjusting content. Again we'll have a new mount.......... like, what for? Soon we'll have more mounts that there are available key binds on a gaming mouse. And with new skills more passives, more interactions the servers won't be able to handle, and it will be a cluster fok that will introduce more skill lag in WvW and so on.

I am not against nerfs..those are necessary to keep the game alive, I am against nerfs that remove a playstyle/spec from viability. In the end of the days we're still talking a ranger: a class supposed to be a ranged threat and we cannot remove that otherwise the class becomes useless

I completely agree with you, but even that within somewhat reasonable proportions so it's also fun for me, as a Ranger, which it currently is not. After a few kills I often swap toons to play something where I actually have to do something to win.

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@"Burnfall.9573" said:The threads about professions will stop until healthy competitiveness fun designs and mechanics are implemented for all player base including all skill levels players.

Here is a video of Thief being freely rewarded for taking risks and being reward at the same time and even repeating it over and over again (resetting fights without having any consequences whatsoever)Important (Thief player in the video is not to be blamed for being given a toxic design profession)

Let me ask you; why is rewarding toxicity instead of nerfing it-minimizing it, is not a threat?

Why Reward and Risk at the same time? and not Risk than Reward?

Why reward toxicity instead of minimize it? why no consequences for toxicity?

Arheundel, i'm sure you and i including many that nerfing is in actions, not in writing.

'Actions speaks louder than words'

Until thanHave a good day

The nerf must be done right so that the class can maintain its identity and the role given from that specific playstyle/elite, when people ask to remove specific aspects of a class without compensation they A) make it clear they don't play that class and B)they have no intention of seeing that class being a viable pick at all.

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I"m all for preserving professions identity but there must be strict rules put in place when they become toxic for the health of the game.

Yes, which includes keeping healthy balances interactions between each professions.

Not to give a profession/s unlimited tools-skills, mechanics with having free access and taking risks at the same time.

One skill mechanic should not give many access to everything and to many things.

Lastly, for once, I truly believe that Anet should redo the entire professions designs because at the mimenr: every professions are everyone's identity and more at the same time.

So yes again, I'm completely with you on professions identity

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@"Burnfall.9573" said:I"m all for preserving professions identity but there must be strict rules put in place when they become toxic for the health of the game.

Yes, which includes keeping healthy balances interactions between each professions.

Not to give a profession/s unlimited tools-skills, mechanics with having free access and taking risks at the same time.

One skill mechanic should not give many access to everything and to many things.

Lastly, for once, I truly believe that Anet should redo the entire professions designs because at the mimenr: every professions are everyone's identity and more at the same time.

So yes again, I'm completely with you on professions identity

The strict rules you're looking for are unfortunately out of reach for GW2 and this is an intended design, if you're talking about something similar to GW1 than GW2 was never meant to be that complex. Looking at the pve scene you notice how everything must be its own "one man army" to guarantee a certain level of fun , that design ideology influence the PvP and WvW scene.

"Doing loads of dmg in the thick of battle while being hard to kill" seems to be the general direction of the game right now...so we either have all professions on that same level ( while following their own specific class design) or none of them.

We either make all professions self-sufficient or none of them should be, there cannot be any gray line else everybody will flock in that direction

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@Markri.9475 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:Looking at thieves..I realize the scope of nerf threads......
there is no scope other than knocking a profession out of viability

What do you mean ? Are thieves creating too many nerf threads?

They created enough nerf threads to warrant their current state which I believe was not intended, the nerfs went a tad too far...the threat level of thieves has been lowered too much. I take thieves as an example to explain the current climate of which even elementalist is a victim too; in GW1 every class remains a serious threat, it has been so from launch to now...and we're talking about 9 professions with several builds, each representing a different level of threat and each seeing various levels of gameplay.

It's sad to see the current state of GW2, nerfs these days are asked more out of spite than objectivity .

I see nerf requests about sword evades and while these requests are logical...I still don't see any follow up idea on how to balance a 10k HP light armor class at melee range, yes I can see how sword evades may be considered hard to cope with but...how else is a class like elementalist supposed to be played at melee range given the current levels of dmg and pressure coming from all ranges?

I take ele as an example as I am more familiar with it but I play also warrior-guardian and ranger and I can make a similar case with each one of them

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Everyone screams OP at everything, but never seem to notice that the game is clearly designed around a rock/paper/scissor effect.

Stop it.

Necros are supposed to die RangersRangers are supposed to die to WarriorsWarriors get shit on by RevenantsAnd Revenants get chewed by Necrosect ect ect

We know when something is truly over powered, when it counters too many things and doesn't have enough counters against it. If that isn't happening but players are still complaining, it almost certainly means that the complaints are coming from a place of biased whining and lack of ability to identify & accept the rock/paper/scissors effect.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Everyone screams OP at everything, but never seem to notice that the game is clearly designed around a rock/paper/scissor effect.

Stop it.

Necros are supposed to die RangersRangers are supposed to die to WarriorsWarriors get kitten on by RevenantsAnd Revenants get chewed by Necrosect ect ect

We know when something is truly over powered, when it counters too many things and doesn't have enough counters against it. If that isn't happening but players are still complaining, it almost certainly means that the complaints are coming from a place of biased whining and lack of ability to identify & accept the rock/paper/scissors effect.

Rock/paper/scissors is fineThe ridiculously inflated numbers some classes can pull, are not.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:Pettiness.....Hypocrisy.....Short sighted are the only words that come to mind whenever I read the GW2 pvp forum, it's truly a shame that the majority of players can't see anything outside the boundaries of their own ego.

True enough. Admittedly I have a penchant for being petty at times here as well. Somewhere down the line though, I realized I needed to at least touch the other classes I was having issues with to make sure that if I had a problem I didn't end up advocating what was essentially the deletion of the class, but obviously there will be people that don't realize that and just don't want to learn the matchup.

Ofcourse, as @Zenix.6198 said there are -still- overperformers. The majority of forum goers are drama llamas but that doesn't mean that the game itself is completely balanced.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:Looking at thieves..I realize the scope of nerf threads......
there is no scope other than knocking a profession out of viability

What do you mean ? Are thieves creating too many nerf threads?

They created enough nerf threads to warrant their current state which I believe was not intended, the nerfs went a tad too far...the threat level of thieves has been lowered too much. I take thieves as an example to explain the current climate of which even elementalist is a victim too; in GW1 every class remains a serious threat, it has been so from launch to now...and we're talking about 9 professions with several builds, each representing a different level of threat and each seeing various levels of gameplay.

It's sad to see the current state of GW2, nerfs these days are asked more out of spite than objectivity .

I see nerf requests about sword evades and while these requests are logical...I still don't see any follow up idea on how to balance a 10k HP light armor class at melee range, yes I can see how sword evades may be considered hard to cope with but...how else is a class like elementalist supposed to be played at melee range given the current levels of dmg and pressure coming from all ranges?

I take ele as an example as I am more familiar with it but I play also warrior-guardian and ranger and I can make a similar case with each one of them

I am also a bit confused, I understand your post as a whole and kind of agree, but I don't see the nerf threads the Thieves created except one. Or did you mean the threads about Swipe change being too much?

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@Zenix.6198 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Everyone screams OP at everything, but never seem to notice that the game is clearly designed around a rock/paper/scissor effect.

Stop it.

Necros are supposed to die RangersRangers are supposed to die to WarriorsWarriors get kitten on by RevenantsAnd Revenants get chewed by Necrosect ect ect

We know when something is truly over powered, when it counters too many things and doesn't have enough counters against it. If that isn't happening but players are still complaining, it almost certainly means that the complaints are coming from a place of biased whining and lack of ability to identify & accept the rock/paper/scissors effect.

Rock/paper/scissors is fineThe ridiculously inflated numbers some classes can pull, are not.

So much this. A lot of the time its for this reason alone. Mesmer/ Warriors/ Soulbeast(At times) Mostly having to do with powercrept classes that are way out of hand.

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@"Burnfall.9573" said:The threads about professions will stop until healthy competitiveness fun designs and mechanics are implemented for all player base including all skill levels players.

Here is a video of Thief being freely rewarded for taking risks and being reward at the same time and even repeating it over and over again (resetting fights without having any consequences whatsoever)Important (Thief player in the video is not to be blamed for being given a toxic design profession)

Let me ask you; why is rewarding toxicity instead of nerfing it-minimizing it, is not a threat?

Why Reward and Risk at the same time? and not Risk than Reward?

Why reward toxicity instead of minimize it? why no consequences for toxicity?

Arheundel, i'm sure you and i including many that nerfing is in actions, not in writing.

'Actions speaks louder than words'

Until thanHave a good day

Dude, I don't think you see what you are looking at in this vid. This thief is playing well (mostly by using range to stay somewhat defensive), but is also playing against opponents who are NOT playing all that well. If the thief misses even one of those evades (and believe me, it's not as easy as you think), he is pretty much toast. Try running that build and seeing how "OP" you think it is.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:Basically the nerf threads about a specific profession will stop when it will be no more deemed a threat by the average playerbase ( average skill level) of every other class , to mention that at this stage even being considered an annoyance is enough to warrant a long list of nerf threads.

Prior to GW2 launch during August 2012 , all the GW fanbase could be found on the fan site GW Guru if I am not wrong, it was quite good, one feature that I particulary enjoyed was the insta temporary ban of whoever started a nerf thread just for the sake of complaining, something the GW2 forum desperately needs given the current climate as the GW2 forum has devolved in just another typical MMO forum.

Dear GW2 players...I have a simple question : if you ask to nerf that aspect of that profession, the very aspect that makes that profession a threat to the one you're playing...how exactly the nerfed profession will be able to compete against your profession afterward?

Few examples here :-People ask to nerf pet damage , longbow damage , reduce multipliers , reduce boon application...then what the ranger supposed to do? how it can survive and kill your class?-People ask to nerf sword evades of weaver...now we have a low HP class at melee range with no other form of protection against aoe/range pressure other than some 2-3k healing-People ask to nerf blocks on guardian...how is the class supposed to survive pressure given its low HP?-People ask to nerf warrior sustain...how the class supposed to be played at melee range when its sustain is already mediocre in mediocre hands?

Looking at thieves..I realize the scope of nerf threads......there is no scope other than knocking a profession out of viability

Pettiness.....Hypocrisy.....Short sighted are the only words that come to mind whenever I read the GW2 pvp forum, it's truly a shame that the majority of players can't see anything outside the boundaries of their own ego

The ONLY thing I want gone on thief, is being able to spike while invisible. Just like I want the engineers mini-form to be gone from their traits because having two rounds of that skill; Is ludicrous and I don't know why they are one of the only classes to have something like this? I think its bullshit, and alot of other class's can't get out like that when shit goes bad.

Make it so when a thief goes to spike they are visible, they can't teleport spike and they can't continuously knock you up into the air anymore. Mainly because I think it's kind of lame that they are able to run around with perma-invisibility. Either its a build or the ones doing it are hacking; Im not sure I don't play thief but nothing annoys me more than someone on my team getting downed, and a thief going invis and no matter how much I do to reveal them it seems like they wont pop out of stealth.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

I am not against nerfs..those are necessary to keep the game alive, I am against nerfs that remove a playstyle/spec from viability. In the end of the days we're still talking a ranger: a class supposed to be a ranged threat and we cannot remove that otherwise the class becomes useless

That's become the legacy of the Spvp forums.I realized this stupid trend a couple of years ago.I cant however put the blame entirely on the community though ( as much as I want to anyway) because at the end of the day Anet is the gatekeeper with the keys.They control how well the ship sails and they have done a very poor job at it.The philosophy they have of nerf to the ground now, buff later needs to go. They need a new team of people that would be willing to actually sit down and play the class they are thinking of adjusting. They need learn to admit mistakes, and they need to stop listening to the outrageous Spvp forums. Barely anything good comes from here.They have so much to fix now that could have been avoided had they simply sat down and thought about what they are adding or changing. Or played the changes.We have trait lines/traits that are unusable. Skills that classes can't live without. Builds and playstyle removed because Anet can't seem to think beyond the scope of a week. There is no vision for longevity for half the things they change. Then to top it all off to do these game altering changes takes them 3 to 4 months and they may or may not fix the issue at ALL. They could make it worse or they could further pigeon hole the class into a playstyle/build Not everyone enjoys.Take that as a rant if you want but Anet needs to do better. Nothing will get fixed until then.

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@Euthymias.7984 said:Congratulations, you've uncovered the true nature of the forums usual userbase.There are some suggestions in the profession specific forums at least about how things can be changed while shaving some of the more ridiculous aspects of a given profession, but you probably cannot expect that sort of measured approach here regularly. Its far easier to cry that something is overperforming and hope/suggest harsh nerfs without compromise or consideration till that thing is non-functional or the class/spec drops from the meta entirely more than anything else. It does give me some mild relief sometimes that the Devs probably take a lot of the posts here with a Vial of Salt when it comes to their balancing..

This is what happened to engi turrets. They're still mostly useless, except thumper turret and healing turret. And people want to nerf those too. :tongue:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Just like I want the engineers mini-form to be gone from their traits because having two rounds of that skill; Is ludicrous and I don't know why they are one of the only classes to have something like this? I think its kitten, and alot of other class's can't get out like that when kitten goes bad.

Brah, they removed auto elixir s from engineer traits a few patches ago. When did you last play? It's now Elixir E.

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@Solori.6025 said:-snip-They could make it worse or they could further pigeon hole the class into a playstyle/build Not everyone enjoys.

Agreed. There is a long way to go in terms of playstyles existing that suck the fun out of other players being balanced, and playstyles that= reward skillful play being created and made viable. That kind of balance takes more than metrics. It takes a team that is willing to both play with and against the build and evaluate why it was good, or why it was bad to either play or fight.

That's a tall order given the track record.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Just like I want the engineers mini-form to be gone from their traits because having two rounds of that skill; Is ludicrous and I don't know why they are one of the only classes to have something like this? I think its kitten, and alot of other class's can't get out like that when kitten goes bad.Brah, they removed auto elixir s from engineer traits a few patches ago. When did you last play? It's now
.

Case in point that we probably shouldn't be trusted to do it. TBH the forums are going to cry regardless, even if the problem no longer exists. I bet if the dev team did mock spvp matches with the builds that have high winrates, and ones that had low winrates or were unused regularly, there would probably be more targeted tweaking.

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