Why is it that despite all the nerfs, engis are still so immeasurably strong?

[bethekey.8314]

@toxic.3648 said:yet easely doable with ht+1 leap , toolbelt +1 leap and rest is comming from compunding chemicals and heat therapy 6.5k heal from going 99 heat to 0 once

Do you have the ability to record and post duels of yourself against plat 2+ players? I'd love to see it.

[mortrialus.3062]

@bethekey.8314 said:

@"toxic.3648" said:yet easely doable with ht+1 leap , toolbelt +1 leap and rest is comming from compunding chemicals and heat therapy 6.5k heal from going 99 heat to 0 once

Do you have the ability to record and post duels of yourself against plat 2+ players? I'd love to see it.

[Vagrant.7206]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

Even back in Pre-Hot Heal Turret has always been very clearly head and shoulders above all other fast popping, requirement free healing skills.

Not in my experience, but maybe we had different experiences. It was the best choice for engineer at the time, because Elixir H was pretty low on healing, didn't remove any condis, and H was on a longer cooldown. Med kit wasn't worth it, and AED was always too situational (when it was added later).

@mortrialus.3062 said:It really is like 20-40% stronger than most other similar heal skills. The average heal skill that doesn't have any kind of prerequirement for getting the most out of it's potential tend to have around 200-280 healing per second. Heal turret ends up being 370 hps.

Ok, so now you ARE complaining about the water field. Gotcha. Because based on the turret alone, it's weaker than mending, we heal as one, and a few others. It also technically has the longest casting time for comparable heals -> 0.75s + 0.75s (placement + overcharge).

Now if you want to include the water field in your complaints, please say so! Because then ele is definitely the better healer. :)

@mortrialus.3062 said:Even if you only take Detonate Heal Turret into account in regards to the field, which you always get and doesn't take skill to use,

Whoa whoa whoa. Let's unpack this statement as you quickly gloss over it for no apparent reason.

1. You don't always get the full heal from healing turret, or the detonate. If you are under enough pressure (IE Reaper spin2win, enemy team focusing you, etc), your healing turret will be destroyed before you even get the overcharge, let alone the detonation.
2. The detonate does take timing, and 2 button presses compared to most people's 1. :tongue: If you spam the heal turret detonate/place button, you will miss out on the overcharge and blast. It's not idiot proof as you would believe. And if you forget to detonate within the water field timeframe, you miss that blast. But you're assuming that engi always gets all those heals.

@mortrialus.3062 said:when you actually crunch the numbers the healing per second potential of heal turret is on better than heals like Troll Unguent (339 hps), False Oasis (324 hps) and Healing Signet (344 hps) which are balanced around higher healing per second than instantaneous heals at the expense of happening gradually over a longer period of time. It's a burst healing skill tuned to beyond heal over time levels.

Using your logic, Mending has 434.67 hps. Yet I don't see warriors running it all that often, or you complaining about it. Why is that? Could it be that the game boils down to more than sheer numbers?

@toxic.3648 said:-- snip --

also holo main since it got released

Wait... you're complaining they slapped HT onto holo?

:confused:

@toxic.3648 said:-snip

look at this ..1 healing turret. blast turret+ holo 5 + holo 2 then toolbelt+holo 2notice i havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy. all i did was wait the regen out and sure i got some off healing from compounding chemicals (37hp per boon) lets say i stacked 10 boons just for kitten and giggles. 370 hp... rest is all healing turret. im on demolisher amu sanctuary runes

and u guys tell me its not broken..

You spent about 5-6 seconds and all your offensive capability to heal that much. In fights, that's generally not realistic.

@Razor.6392 said:

@bethekey.8314 said:

@Razor.6392 said:Ahhhh vagrant 1 year later still defending his broken spec lol. Some things never change!

You sound like a child. He spent a lot of time addressing your hyperbolic points and this is all you have to say after?

I mean, read his explanation on holo's "downsides". That is not a post to be taken seriously. Also I've dealt with him in the past... even on release holo, he would still defend it and say it was balanced lol.

Talk about me in the third person, it feeds my souuuuuul. /s

Joking aside, you said there were no downsides to holo. I pointed out the downsides.

I even said the downsides aren't painful for most people, but they are there.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@bethekey.8314 said:

@toxic.3648 said:yet easely doable with ht+1 leap , toolbelt +1 leap and rest is comming from compunding chemicals and heat therapy 6.5k heal from going 99 heat to 0 once

Do you have the ability to record and post duels of yourself against plat 2+ players? I'd love to see it.

Are you the guy screaming about how mesmer skills are packed so densely? Because a picture of a skill's tooltip without context is a great way to continue the meme.

[Quadox.7834]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

Even back in Pre-Hot Heal Turret has always been very clearly head and shoulders above all other fast popping, requirement free healing skills.

Not in my experience, but maybe we had different experiences. It was the best choice for engineer at the time, because Elixir H was pretty low on healing, didn't remove any condis, and H was on a longer cooldown. Med kit wasn't worth it, and AED was always too situational (when it was added later).

@mortrialus.3062 said:It really is like 20-40% stronger than most other similar heal skills. The average heal skill that doesn't have any kind of prerequirement for getting the most out of it's potential tend to have around 200-280 healing per second. Heal turret ends up being 370 hps.

Ok, so now you ARE complaining about the water field. Gotcha. Because based on the turret alone, it's weaker than mending, we heal as one, and a few others. It also technically has the longest casting time for comparable heals -> 0.75s + 0.75s (placement + overcharge).

Now if you want to include the water field in your complaints, please say so! Because then ele is definitely the better healer. :)

@mortrialus.3062 said:Even if you only take Detonate Heal Turret into account in regards to the field, which you always get and doesn't take skill to use,

Whoa whoa whoa. Let's unpack this statement as you quickly gloss over it for no apparent reason.

1. You don't always get the full heal from healing turret, or the detonate. If you are under enough pressure (IE Reaper spin2win, enemy team focusing you, etc), your healing turret will be destroyed before you even get the overcharge, let alone the detonation.
2. The detonate does take timing, and 2 button presses compared to most people's 1. :tongue: If you spam the heal turret detonate/place button, you will miss out on the overcharge and blast. It's not idiot proof as you would believe. And if you forget to detonate within the water field timeframe, you miss that blast. But you're assuming that engi always gets all those heals.

@mortrialus.3062 said:when you actually crunch the numbers the healing per second potential of heal turret is on better than heals like Troll Unguent (339 hps), False Oasis (324 hps) and Healing Signet (344 hps) which are balanced around higher healing per second than instantaneous heals at the expense of happening gradually over a longer period of time. It's a burst healing skill tuned to beyond heal over time levels.

Using your logic, Mending has 434.67 hps. Yet I don't see warriors running it all that often, or you complaining about it. Why is that? Could it be that the game boils down to more than sheer numbers?

@toxic.3648 said:-- snip --

also holo main since it got released

Wait... you're complaining they slapped HT onto holo?

:confused:

@toxic.3648 said:-snip

look at this ..1 healing turret. blast turret+ holo 5 + holo 2 then toolbelt+holo 2notice i havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy. all i did was wait the regen out and sure i got some off healing from compounding chemicals (37hp per boon) lets say i stacked 10 boons just for kitten and giggles. 370 hp... rest is all healing turret. im on demolisher amu sanctuary runes

and u guys tell me its not broken..

You spent about 5-6 seconds and all your offensive capability to heal that much. In fights, that's generally not realistic.

@Razor.6392 said:

@bethekey.8314 said:

@Razor.6392 said:Ahhhh vagrant 1 year later still defending his broken spec lol. Some things never change!

You sound like a child. He spent a lot of time addressing your hyperbolic points and this is all you have to say after?

I mean, read his explanation on holo's "downsides". That is not a post to be taken seriously. Also I've dealt with him in the past... even on release holo, he would still defend it and say it was balanced lol.

Talk about me in the third person, it feeds my souuuuuul. /s

Joking aside, you said there were no downsides to holo. I pointed out the downsides.

I even said the downsides aren't painful for most people, but they are there.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@bethekey.8314 said:

@toxic.3648 said:yet easely doable with ht+1 leap , toolbelt +1 leap and rest is comming from compunding chemicals and heat therapy 6.5k heal from going 99 heat to 0 once

Do you have the ability to record and post duels of yourself against plat 2+ players? I'd love to see it.

Are you the guy screaming about how mesmer skills are packed so densely? Because a picture of a skill's tooltip without context is a great way to continue the meme.

Nothing to do with densely packed, it has to do with providing better access to area stealth than both thief and mesmer utilities/elites (taking the cooldown into account).

[Quadox.7834]

@bethekey.8314 said:

@"toxic.3648" said:well im sry i cant give u that. all i can say is that imo after playing holo for so long it feels that the sheer healing from holo is what breaks it, be it from heat therapy+perma vigor synergy or healing turret. in terms of dmg it can dish out alot but ive also seen way worse from other builds atm. this is my opinion. i dont feel like i have to provide detailed comprehensive analysis across all meta specs to say healing for 15k+ every 20 sec interval is a wee bit too much when u look at all the other stuff holo can do atm

no idea why i tried it the first place either tbh xD way too tired for this

Well, you gave up before doing it even once, which makes me doubt you ever took anything but your feelings into account. You aren't obliged to do analysis of course, but I think it might help support any arguments you make.He did more than 99% of players. Did you do much else than say "not realistic and doesn't take all situations into account" while requesting further invedtment on his part through further analysis, comparisions between each class, posting duel videos, and so on? Also, as we seemed to agree on before, feelings/opinions are always necessary when discussing balance. Toxic is now telling you his opinion, based on X reason. Maybe you should refer him to your analysis as to why holo isn't overpowered so he has something to work with.

Also, I may be wrong but from what I've seen Toxic seems to discuss with a pleasant and respectful tone while you seem to often seem to do the opposite, not sure why.

And as I said before, healing for 15k every 20 seconds requires timing all your blast finishers with your heal. This is unrealistic, bad, and predictable.

[Quadox.7834]

@toxic.3648 said:

@bethekey.8314 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Here is the thing to both of you; balance discussions in a complex game such as guild wars 2 are always and

neccessarily

subjective. You cannot objectively prove how something should be balanced and making complex analsyses of sustain capabilities based on healing per second, evave, block and all these other infinite variables, then comparing these to other professions in an equally infinite number of possible realistic scenarios is largely going to be a waste of time.

It might sound stupid to say it like this, but the truth is that we must base our suggestions on

feelings

and

opinions

. Nobody proved objectively that Mirage was overpowered, yet there seemed to be consensus on it.

Exactly. Claiming you've taken into account all situations is a blatant lie. I'm arguing that completely ignoring the complexity and giving only ideal situations is bad for balance.

If we require objevtive standards for balance changed then what happens is that nothing changes. Some players are also very quick to desire analysis and proof when there is talk of nerfing their own class yet don't care for it particularly when another is on the chopping block.

I wouldn't say striving for objectivity leads to no changes. And people defending their class against misinformation is expected. Asking for basic evidence of thoughtful analysis is fair in my opinion. Requiring comprehensive analysis isn't.

@toxic.3648 said:an ideal situation that presents it self quite frequently in duels i might add. all u need is 1 more finisher off cd mid duel to pull this off. and u got 2 of them 18s/15s cd's . and holo leap is always availible for a combo finisher due to the low 2s cd. if u play right,kite or use one of the utilities to sustain urself (kinda like stealth up when u see rampage or use elixir s) its no problem getting a 2nd finisher off cd to use with heal. ofc u wont do this if both are 10+s and u need to heal now. then u pop ht with holo 2 leap for 1500 less heal.

i can draw comparison to core guard since i play that alot too atm.it got alot of heal and block + blind. kitten of dmg and ports + invul. yet all u need to do as holo is to kite their burst since they lack reliable hard cc and mobility to follow up. after RF is used and u are just managing on ur cd's u will see the holo healing back up to 80% since all their healing is on 1 healing skill instead of all ur healing which is on utilities + healing skill. sure u can try and reengage but i promise u that if the holo as sustained this far into the match it can most likely keep going unless u can get lucky with a dps spike.

same with rev. survive the burst and wait for them to switch from shiro. then relax while they get kitten healing and u got 100% in the meantime (ive literally done this)and im terrible at fighting revs too.

or the new beserkers. dodge,block(if possible),invul,kite the arc devider and u will have np with them since they lack sustain to keep up. spellbreakers tho are another story, tough fight for holo. hard to compete with such a duelist build when we are kinda good at everything but not truly great at something.

just to be clear i want all specs brought down in line. we still have some that are out of line in terms of dmg and sustainability other than holo.

You misinterpreted my request for ability comparisons as a request for duel advice. These two are very different.

well im sry i cant give u that. all i can say is that imo after playing holo for so long it feels that the sheer healing from holo is what breaks it, be it from heat therapy+perma vigor synergy or healing turret. in terms of dmg it can dish out alot but ive also seen way worse from other builds atm. this is my opinion. i dont feel like i have to provide detailed comprehensive analysis across all meta specs to say healing for 12k+ every 20 sec interval is a wee bit too much when u look at all the other stuff holo can do atm

no idea why i tried it the first place either tbh xD way too tired for this

I honestly feel a bit bad for you that you put in way more effort than most/all others in this discussion, if I were you I might just leave it, you can argue with them ad infinitum yet most will never be satisfied, the best-case scenario is "agree to disagree". Essentially, nothing will have been accomplished.

[Quadox.7834]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:engi core sustain being a problem lol. what a joke.

Core can be a problem without being meta. For instance, many think that the high protection uptime from chaos on mesmer is an issue, yet core mesmer is obviously trash. Same with evasive mirror and old confounding suggestions. And blurred inscriptions to some extent.

[FyzE.3472]

@Razor.6392 said:Ahhhh vagrant 1 year later still defending his broken spec lol. Some things never change!

Ahhhh Razor 1 year later still demands stuff he does not like instead of improving himself or even listening to a friendly advice lol. Some things never change!

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:engi core sustain being a problem lol. what a joke.

Core can be a problem without being meta. For instance, many think that the high protection uptime from chaos on mesmer is an issue, yet core mesmer is obviously trash. Same with evasive mirror and old confounding suggestions. And blurred inscriptions to some extent.

yeah... you're right. the instances are few and far in between and are usually only a problem when paired with especs tho. so why nerf core to nerf especs? doesn't make any sense. all that does is further force people to play especs. sure there is some stuff that is obviously op, but...

[Pengu.7481]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@toxic.3648 said:-snip

look at this ..1 healing turret. blast turret+ holo 5 + holo 2 then toolbelt+holo 2notice i havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy. all i did was wait the regen out and sure i got some off healing from compounding chemicals (37hp per boon) lets say i stacked 10 boons just for kitten and giggles. 370 hp... rest is all healing turret. im on demolisher amu sanctuary runes

and u guys tell me its not broken..

You spent about 5-6 seconds and all your offensive capability to heal that much. In fights, that's generally not realistic.

i feel like a broken record since all i do is repeating myself. this combo is easy to do. i pull it off alot of times when im dueling. also, as far as offensive capabilities ive used 1 hard cc to pull this off on a 15 sec cd. i still have the rest of rifle and photon skills at my disposal to keep pressure up so about 90% of my offensive capabilities are still up. thats far from all offensive capabilities.

@bethekey.8314 no im not gonna do that for u. instead id like to hear why u think the heal on holo is fine when u couple it with all the utilities it got at its disposal.

@Quadox.7834 ty dud. was feeling like my point was falling on deaf ears :)

[Lighter.5631]

scrapper is too busted

[bethekey.8314]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@bethekey.8314 said:

@"toxic.3648" said:well im sry i cant give u that. all i can say is that imo after playing holo for so long it feels that the sheer healing from holo is what breaks it, be it from heat therapy+perma vigor synergy or healing turret. in terms of dmg it can dish out alot but ive also seen way worse from other builds atm. this is my opinion. i dont feel like i have to provide detailed comprehensive analysis across all meta specs to say healing for 15k+ every 20 sec interval is a wee bit too much when u look at all the other stuff holo can do atm

no idea why i tried it the first place either tbh xD way too tired for this

Well, you gave up before doing it even once, which makes me doubt you ever took anything but your feelings into account. You aren't obliged to do analysis of course, but I think it might help support any arguments you make.He did more than 99% of players. Did you do much else than say "not realistic and doesn't take all situations into account" while requesting further invedtment on his part through further analysis, comparisions between each class, posting duel videos, and so on? Also, as we seemed to agree on before, feelings/opinions are always necessary when discussing balance. Toxic is now telling you his opinion, based on X reason. Maybe you should refer him to your analysis as to why holo isn't overpowered so he has something to work with.

Also, I may be wrong but from what I've seen Toxic seems to discuss with a pleasant and respectful tone while you seem to often seem to do the opposite, not sure why.

And as I said before, healing for 15k every 20 seconds requires timing all your blast finishers with your heal. This is unrealistic, bad, and predictable.

It's on the people making a claim to back it up. I'm content with the status quo right now (for healing turret), which requires no effort to maintain. If he truly believed there was an issue, that healing turret was overperforming in realistic scenarios, then it should be easy to show. I'm surprised how many times I have to say this on these forums.

I did refer him to my opinion, multiple times. He has not countered it with anything other than vague "nah it's easy dud" responses.

I actually put effort into proving things I believe to be broken in this game and post gameplay videos from time to time on my youtube channel. Feel free to check them out.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

Even back in Pre-Hot Heal Turret has always been very clearly head and shoulders above all other fast popping, requirement free healing skills.

Not in my experience, but maybe we had different experiences. It was the best choice for engineer at the time, because Elixir H was pretty low on healing, didn't remove any condis, and H was on a longer cooldown. Med kit wasn't worth it, and AED was always too situational (when it was added later).

@mortrialus.3062 said:It really is like 20-40% stronger than most other similar heal skills. The average heal skill that doesn't have any kind of prerequirement for getting the most out of it's potential tend to have around 200-280 healing per second. Heal turret ends up being 370 hps.

Ok, so now you ARE complaining about the water field. Gotcha. Because based on the turret alone, it's weaker than mending, we heal as one, and a few others. It also technically has the longest casting time for comparable heals -> 0.75s + 0.75s (placement + overcharge).

Now if you want to include the water field in your complaints, please say so! Because then ele is definitely the better healer. :)

@mortrialus.3062 said:Even if you only take Detonate Heal Turret into account in regards to the field, which you always get and doesn't take skill to use,

Whoa whoa whoa. Let's unpack this statement as you quickly gloss over it for no apparent reason.

1. You don't always get the full heal from healing turret, or the detonate. If you are under enough pressure (IE Reaper spin2win, enemy team focusing you, etc), your healing turret will be destroyed before you even get the overcharge, let alone the detonation.
2. The detonate does take timing, and 2 button presses compared to most people's 1. :tongue: If you spam the heal turret detonate/place button, you will miss out on the overcharge and blast. It's not idiot proof as you would believe. And if you forget to detonate within the water field timeframe, you miss that blast. But you're assuming that engi always gets all those heals.

@mortrialus.3062 said:when you actually crunch the numbers the healing per second potential of heal turret is on better than heals like Troll Unguent (339 hps), False Oasis (324 hps) and Healing Signet (344 hps) which are balanced around higher healing per second than instantaneous heals at the expense of happening gradually over a longer period of time. It's a burst healing skill tuned to beyond heal over time levels.

Using your logic, Mending has 434.67 hps. Yet I don't see warriors running it all that often, or you complaining about it. Why is that? Could it be that the game boils down to more than sheer numbers?

@toxic.3648 said:-- snip --

also holo main since it got released

Wait... you're complaining they slapped HT onto holo?

:confused:

@toxic.3648 said:-snip

look at this ..1 healing turret. blast turret+ holo 5 + holo 2 then toolbelt+holo 2notice i havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy. all i did was wait the regen out and sure i got some off healing from compounding chemicals (37hp per boon) lets say i stacked 10 boons just for kitten and giggles. 370 hp... rest is all healing turret. im on demolisher amu sanctuary runes

and u guys tell me its not broken..

You spent about 5-6 seconds and all your offensive capability to heal that much. In fights, that's generally not realistic.

@Razor.6392 said:

@bethekey.8314 said:

@Razor.6392 said:Ahhhh vagrant 1 year later still defending his broken spec lol. Some things never change!

You sound like a child. He spent a lot of time addressing your hyperbolic points and this is all you have to say after?

I mean, read his explanation on holo's "downsides". That is not a post to be taken seriously. Also I've dealt with him in the past... even on release holo, he would still defend it and say it was balanced lol.

Talk about me in the third person, it feeds my souuuuuul. /s

Joking aside, you said there were no downsides to holo. I pointed out the downsides.

I even said the downsides aren't painful for most people, but they are there.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@bethekey.8314 said:

@toxic.3648 said:yet easely doable with ht+1 leap , toolbelt +1 leap and rest is comming from compunding chemicals and heat therapy 6.5k heal from going 99 heat to 0 once

Do you have the ability to record and post duels of yourself against plat 2+ players? I'd love to see it.

Are you the guy screaming about how mesmer skills are packed so densely? Because a picture of a skill's tooltip without context is a great way to continue the meme.

Nothing to do with densely packed, it has to do with providing better access to area stealth than both thief and mesmer utilities/elites (taking the cooldown into account).

It is also the only core engi skill that provides stealth, in the picture it has been grandmaster traited for buffs (Alch line -> HGH), and requires a ground target of a fairly small radius (180) + the elixir itself is a projectile and can be blocked, reflected, or destroyed (I'm not even kidding, this is a real problem for engis). It's not the be-all-end-all of stealth utilities.

@toxic.3648 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@toxic.3648 said:-snip

look at this ..1 healing turret. blast turret+ holo 5 + holo 2 then toolbelt+holo 2notice i havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy. all i did was wait the regen out and sure i got some off healing from compounding chemicals (37hp per boon) lets say i stacked 10 boons just for kitten and giggles. 370 hp... rest is all healing turret. im on demolisher amu sanctuary runes

and u guys tell me its not broken..

You spent about 5-6 seconds and all your offensive capability to heal that much. In fights, that's generally not realistic.

i feel like a broken record since all i do is repeating myself. this combo is easy to do. i pull it off alot of times when im dueling. also, as far as offensive capabilities ive used 1 hard cc to pull this off on a 15 sec cd. i still have the rest of rifle and photon skills at my disposal to keep pressure up so about 90% of my offensive capabilities are still up. thats far from

all

offensive capabilities.

In my experience, it's only easy to do if your opponents are not paying the slightest attention, otherwise you have to burn your offensive cooldowns. I end up with >75% heat to make sure I pull off the complete combo, and it's by no means a guarantee.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

Some synthesis. Emphases in bold.

@"Chaith.8256" said:Just a quick reminder that all professions have asymmetrical balance.

If you're suggesting nerfs or buffs you need to be able to concretely show how a spec is over/under-performing relative to other professions.

! From: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/908146/#Comment_908146!! > @"toxic.3648" said:! > healing turret + blast and 2 combo's in water field is 10k healing on a 20 sec cd. add toolbelt water field + leap for another 1500 + 1000 regen. so 12k+ healing from 1 healing skill. could sure as hell use some nerfs. heat therapy too. holo has so much sustain im never rly fearing about death cuz i know my healing skill is up soon to put me back at 100%.! > (...)! >! > i dont want holo nerfed to the ground but put more in line with the other specs thats been nerfed the last couple of patches (last patch holo got buffed... like why?? anet u high?) also remove some boons (perma vigor/swiftness) .!!! From: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/908177/#Comment_908177!! > ! > ! >! > look at this ..! > 1 healing turret. blast turret+ holo 5 + holo 2 then toolbelt+holo 2! > notice i havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy. all i did was wait the regen out and sure i got some off healing from compounding chemicals (37hp per boon) lets say i stacked 10 boons just for kitten and giggles. 370 hp... rest is all healing turret. im on demolisher amu sanctuary runes! >! > and u guys tell me its not broken..

@"Chaith.8256" said:If you start by suggesting the arbitrary solution, it doesn't make any sense without context. Especially if your reasoning boils down to: "any outliers/asymmetrical design is bad!"

! From: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/908191/#Comment_908191!! > @"toxic.3648" said:! > i read all of them, all good points. just giving my 2 cents on what i think is not in line compared to the rest of the rooster.! > couple this healing skill+heat therapy with photon forge dmg and cc potential, now give it perma vigor(vent heat more often/more heal/more time in forge for more dmg)! > lets add super speed and disengage 6 sec stealth + insane amount of boons that are up all the time. give it some range and tankyness too and no wonder ppl feel like its overperforming.! >! > all i want is healing turned down a bit and shave some boon durations or entirely from skills spamming them (vigor). increase holo 2 cd a bit and maybe increase some dmg to compensate, or dont. depends on how hard healing is hit. but atm imo its too much of everything!!! From: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/908217/#Comment_908217!! > id refer u to the answer i gave to said post. i even included pictures to show what i mean and explained how i got the 12k healing using a combo every holo knows and can use since i could have went either rifle 5 or holo 5 for this heal combo. will u be able to pull this combo off every time? no. but ive played long enough to know this combo is availible alot of times.! > when i talk sustain i also account for invul . block. CC. stealth. kite ability. disengage potential/mobility and also heal. holo got all this in relatively low cd (30s) . the problem imo is the insane heal u have slapped on to all this other good stuff.

My two cents: No matter how you slice it, Holo has a kitten ton of sustain relative to damage output, especially compared to specs that aren't Soulbeast or Spellbreaker. All three specs are remaining vestiges of POF power creep and are due for real "trade offs" and toning down.

[Quadox.7834]

@bethekey.8314 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@bethekey.8314 said:

@"toxic.3648" said:well im sry i cant give u that. all i can say is that imo after playing holo for so long it feels that the sheer healing from holo is what breaks it, be it from heat therapy+perma vigor synergy or healing turret. in terms of dmg it can dish out alot but ive also seen way worse from other builds atm. this is my opinion. i dont feel like i have to provide detailed comprehensive analysis across all meta specs to say healing for 15k+ every 20 sec interval is a wee bit too much when u look at all the other stuff holo can do atm

no idea why i tried it the first place either tbh xD way too tired for this

Well, you gave up before doing it even once, which makes me doubt you ever took anything but your feelings into account. You aren't obliged to do analysis of course, but I think it might help support any arguments you make.He did more than 99% of players. Did you do much else than say "not realistic and doesn't take all situations into account" while requesting further invedtment on his part through further analysis, comparisions between each class, posting duel videos, and so on? Also, as we seemed to agree on before, feelings/opinions are always necessary when discussing balance. Toxic is now telling you his opinion, based on X reason. Maybe you should refer him to your analysis as to why holo isn't overpowered so he has something to work with.

Also, I may be wrong but from what I've seen Toxic seems to discuss with a pleasant and respectful tone while you seem to often seem to do the opposite, not sure why.

And as I said before, healing for 15k every 20 seconds requires timing all your blast finishers with your heal. This is unrealistic, bad, and predictable.

It's on the people making a claim to back it up. I'm content with the status quo right now (for healing turret), which requires no effort to maintain. If he truly believed there was an issue, that healing turret was overperforming in realistic scenarios, then it should be easy to show. I'm surprised how many times I have to say this on these forums.He did back it up, with his opinion and experiences, with some reasoning. I thought we already agreed that balance suggestions involve subjective opinions at this point?

I did refer him to my opinion, multiple times. He has not countered it with anything other than vague "nah it's easy dud" responses.

I actually put effort into proving things I believe to be broken in this game and post gameplay videos from time to time on my youtube channel. Feel free to check them out.

Nothing to do with what we are discussing. You should post any bugs you find as bug reports if you haven't already.

[Quadox.7834]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

Even back in Pre-Hot Heal Turret has always been very clearly head and shoulders above all other fast popping, requirement free healing skills.

Not in my experience, but maybe we had different experiences. It was the best choice for engineer at the time, because Elixir H was pretty low on healing, didn't remove any condis, and H was on a longer cooldown. Med kit wasn't worth it, and AED was always too situational (when it was added later).

@mortrialus.3062 said:It really is like 20-40% stronger than most other similar heal skills. The average heal skill that doesn't have any kind of prerequirement for getting the most out of it's potential tend to have around 200-280 healing per second. Heal turret ends up being 370 hps.

Ok, so now you ARE complaining about the water field. Gotcha. Because based on the turret alone, it's weaker than mending, we heal as one, and a few others. It also technically has the longest casting time for comparable heals -> 0.75s + 0.75s (placement + overcharge).

Now if you want to include the water field in your complaints, please say so! Because then ele is definitely the better healer. :)

@mortrialus.3062 said:Even if you only take Detonate Heal Turret into account in regards to the field, which you always get and doesn't take skill to use,

Whoa whoa whoa. Let's unpack this statement as you quickly gloss over it for no apparent reason.

1. You don't always get the full heal from healing turret, or the detonate. If you are under enough pressure (IE Reaper spin2win, enemy team focusing you, etc), your healing turret will be destroyed before you even get the overcharge, let alone the detonation.
2. The detonate does take timing, and 2 button presses compared to most people's 1. :tongue: If you spam the heal turret detonate/place button, you will miss out on the overcharge and blast. It's not idiot proof as you would believe. And if you forget to detonate within the water field timeframe, you miss that blast. But you're assuming that engi always gets all those heals.

@mortrialus.3062 said:when you actually crunch the numbers the healing per second potential of heal turret is on better than heals like Troll Unguent (339 hps), False Oasis (324 hps) and Healing Signet (344 hps) which are balanced around higher healing per second than instantaneous heals at the expense of happening gradually over a longer period of time. It's a burst healing skill tuned to beyond heal over time levels.

Using your logic, Mending has 434.67 hps. Yet I don't see warriors running it all that often, or you complaining about it. Why is that? Could it be that the game boils down to more than sheer numbers?

@toxic.3648 said:-- snip --

also holo main since it got released

Wait... you're complaining they slapped HT onto holo?

:confused:

@toxic.3648 said:-snip

look at this ..1 healing turret. blast turret+ holo 5 + holo 2 then toolbelt+holo 2notice i havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy. all i did was wait the regen out and sure i got some off healing from compounding chemicals (37hp per boon) lets say i stacked 10 boons just for kitten and giggles. 370 hp... rest is all healing turret. im on demolisher amu sanctuary runes

and u guys tell me its not broken..

You spent about 5-6 seconds and all your offensive capability to heal that much. In fights, that's generally not realistic.

@Razor.6392 said:

@bethekey.8314 said:

@Razor.6392 said:Ahhhh vagrant 1 year later still defending his broken spec lol. Some things never change!

You sound like a child. He spent a lot of time addressing your hyperbolic points and this is all you have to say after?

I mean, read his explanation on holo's "downsides". That is not a post to be taken seriously. Also I've dealt with him in the past... even on release holo, he would still defend it and say it was balanced lol.

Talk about me in the third person, it feeds my souuuuuul. /s

Joking aside, you said there were no downsides to holo. I pointed out the downsides.

I even said the downsides aren't painful for most people, but they are there.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@bethekey.8314 said:

@toxic.3648 said:yet easely doable with ht+1 leap , toolbelt +1 leap and rest is comming from compunding chemicals and heat therapy 6.5k heal from going 99 heat to 0 once

Do you have the ability to record and post duels of yourself against plat 2+ players? I'd love to see it.

Are you the guy screaming about how mesmer skills are packed so densely? Because a picture of a skill's tooltip without context is a great way to continue the meme.

Nothing to do with densely packed, it has to do with providing better access to area stealth than both thief and mesmer utilities/elites (taking the cooldown into account).

It is also the only core engi skill that provides stealth, in the picture it has been grandmaster traited for buffs (Alch line -> HGH), and requires a ground target of a fairly small radius (180) + the elixir itself is a projectile and can be blocked, reflected, or destroyed (I'm not even kidding, this is a real problem for engis). It's not the be-all-end-all of stealth utilities.I know that.

@toxic.3648 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@toxic.3648 said:-snip

look at this ..1 healing turret. blast turret+ holo 5 + holo 2 then toolbelt+holo 2notice i havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy. all i did was wait the regen out and sure i got some off healing from compounding chemicals (37hp per boon) lets say i stacked 10 boons just for kitten and giggles. 370 hp... rest is all healing turret. im on demolisher amu sanctuary runes

and u guys tell me its not broken..

You spent about 5-6 seconds and all your offensive capability to heal that much. In fights, that's generally not realistic.

i feel like a broken record since all i do is repeating myself. this combo is easy to do. i pull it off alot of times when im dueling. also, as far as offensive capabilities ive used 1 hard cc to pull this off on a 15 sec cd. i still have the rest of rifle and photon skills at my disposal to keep pressure up so about 90% of my offensive capabilities are still up. thats far from

all

offensive capabilities.

In my experience, it's only easy to do if your opponents are not paying the slightest attention, otherwise you have to burn your offensive cooldowns. I end up with >75% heat to make sure I pull off the complete combo, and it's by no means a guarantee.

[Chaith.8256]

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:Some synthesis. Emphases in bold.My two cents: No matter how you slice it, Holo has a kitten ton of sustain relative to damage output, especially compared to specs that aren't Soulbeast or Spellbreaker. All three specs are remaining vestiges of POF power creep and are due for real "trade offs" and toning down.

I think you missed my point, I agree Holo, Spellbreaker, Soulbeast has asymmetrically high healing & damage features baked in.

Another observation, Thief & Mes have asymmetrically high avoidance & in combat mobility.

You have to look at the PvP tier lists, pick priority, these things primarily to determine what to tune down.

Tuning down holo, Spellbreaker & Soulbeast sustain, adding tradeoffs, that's cool, but if we're smart and looking at the tier lists, that makes Scourge, FB, and Revenant even more dominant unless they get equally nerfed too.

Balancing for overall performance & desirability >>> balancing to normalize all the classes damage, sustain, etc.

[Curennos.9307]

So, some thoughts.

Goal: to reduce Holo's near-zero counterplay sustain that it gets in the form of Heat Therapy and shift that sustain, IN PART, to other areas - either with barrier, healing, or utility (such as stab or chill) that allows damage mitigation. Give slight damage bumps because who needs sustain if the enemy is DEAD. Buff underused skills.

• Heat Therapy has to go. Replace it with a trait that pulses burns while venting heat, strong enough that maybe condi holo could be more of a thing, but weak enough that it's only a debatably minor/inconsequential damage bump for power holo. Maybe throw in a blind, cripple or short chill every 3rd or 4th pulse (rewards venting heat for longer).

• Coolant Blast needs love. Increase the Chill (okay maybe not the Chill >.>), Frost Aura and HoT to 6 sec durations. Scale the HoT based on heat - 50% is 1500, 3000 at 100% and 0 at 0%. Something along those lines. Bonus: Why does the toolbelt skill of Coolant Blast self inflict burns? That's dumb. Make it 2/4 condis and no burns.

• Light Stike needs a damage bump. It's honestly pathetic (Gw2skills listing it at 490 tooltip w/Demo amulet). Would like a tooltip of 600-650.

• Holographic Shockwave. Why does this have 100% crit chance? Remove that, reduce heat cost by 5%.

• Elixir H needs several times the Protection uptime it currently offers, plus maybe a mite of Resistance? Kthx.

• Crystal Config: Eclipse: 1 stack of stab but for longer duration(4-6 sec). Up the amount of barrier per target struck (600?). Oooor remove the barrier and shift it to Zephyr before bumping it up a bit and buff the Stab trait a bit more, so they have the option of stab, sustain via barrier, or damage via Storm. Not too bothered by the barrier though.

• Minor damage, distance and maybe (extremely small) CD bump to Forge #2.

Hard Light Arena : -5 sec CD.

Ofc, this is assuming other meta setups get some adjustments at the same time, lest we jump right from adjusting holo to punting it out of the meta and into the muck.

[Solori.6025]

@Teratus.2859 said:I guess you could say they're just..

'Puts on shades'

Engineered that way!!

YEEEEEAAAAAA!!!!!

Why is the theme song for CSI Miami playing as I read this ??

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:Some synthesis. Emphases in bold.My two cents: No matter how you slice it, Holo has a kitten ton of sustain relative to damage output, especially compared to specs that aren't Soulbeast or Spellbreaker. All three specs are remaining vestiges of POF power creep and are due for real "trade offs" and toning down.

I think you missed my point, I agree Holo, Spellbreaker, Soulbeast has asymmetrically high healing & damage features baked in.

Another observation, Thief & Mes have asymmetrically high avoidance & in combat mobility.

Thief and Mes (excluding chronobunk which isn't really a thing post scepter-nerf) are squishy. All they really have for sustain are avoidance and mobility. Meanwhile they do jack-all for damage outside meme builds.

Holo, Spellbreaker, and Soulbeast "have it all": sustain, mobility, and damage. They may not be the best at any one of these but they're certainly well above average in each. Combine above average sustain + mobility + damage in one package and you get overperformers like these.

You have to look at the PvP tier lists, pick priority, these things primarily to determine what to tune down.

Tuning down holo, Spellbreaker & Soulbeast sustain, adding tradeoffs, that's cool, but if we're smart and looking at the tier lists, that makes Scourge, FB, and Revenant even more dominant unless they get equally nerfed too.

Balancing for overall performance & desirability >>> balancing to normalize all the classes damage, sustain, etc.

Scourge was one of the first POF specs to receive major nerfs. Deadeye and Mirage have now too--so much so that some would say they've been nerfed out of meta. Not unviable, but not meta. The same cannot be said of Holo, Spellbreaker, and Soulbeast. No one reasonable wants them nerfed to the ground. But paring them down to levels other specs have been would be good for "overall performance and desirability." If that leaves Firebrand, Revenant, and Scourge (again) overperforming, they can be shaved too.

The goal, however challenging, should be relative performance balance across all specs. That does not mean normalizing their individual strengths and weaknesses, but striving for "full package" balance. Right now, the "full package" that is Holo, Spellbreaker, or Soulbeast is above and beyond that of any other spec.

[bethekey.8314]

@Quadox.7834 said:He did back it up, with his opinion and experiences, with some reasoning. I thought we already agreed that balance suggestions involve subjective opinions at this point?

He cited a laundry list of skills and what they can do in unrealistic situations. That isn't backing it up, at least to me, because changes would affect realistic situations. He also could make no comparisons to other classes meta builds.

You take his word for a lot it seems. I have no clue what caliber of player he is. Do you? A lot of things seem too good at different skill levels.

If you're confused about where I stand on balance suggestions from our previous discussion, here was my response:

@bethekey.8314 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Here is the thing to both of you; balance discussions in a complex game such as guild wars 2 are always and

neccessarily

subjective. You cannot objectively prove how something should be balanced and making complex analsyses of sustain capabilities based on healing per second, evave, block and all these other infinite variables, then comparing these to other professions in an equally infinite number of possible realistic scenarios is largely going to be a waste of time.

It might sound stupid to say it like this, but the truth is that we must base our suggestions on

feelings

and

opinions

. Nobody proved objectively that Mirage was overpowered, yet there seemed to be consensus on it.

Exactly. Claiming you've taken into account all situations is a blatant lie. I'm arguing that completely ignoring the complexity and giving only ideal situations is bad for balance.

If we require objevtive standards for balance changed then what happens is that nothing changes. Some players are also very quick to desire analysis and proof when there is talk of nerfing their own class yet don't care for it particularly when another is on the chopping block.

I wouldn't say striving for objectivity leads to no changes. And people defending their class against misinformation is expected. Asking for basic evidence of thoughtful analysis is fair in my opinion. Requiring comprehensive analysis isn't.

Toxic claimed that he did take into account the other variables, which is a lie. And balance being subjective isn't an excuse to be stupid about it.

@Quadox.7834 said:Nothing to do with what we are discussing.

Actually, you brought up effort in proving points and made the comparison between myself and toxic, praising him for his lackluster effort while incorrectly placing burden of proof on me. See below. I think we have very different standards for what qualifies as convincing evidence and good effort.

@Quadox.7834 said:He did more than 99% of players. Did you do much else than say "not realistic and doesn't take all situations into account" while requesting further invedtment on his part through further analysis, comparisions between each class, posting duel videos, and so on? Also, as we seemed to agree on before, feelings/opinions are always necessary when discussing balance. Toxic is now telling you his opinion, based on X reason. Maybe you should refer him to your analysis as to why holo isn't overpowered so he has something to work with.

[Vagrant.7206]

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:The goal, however challenging, should be relative performance balance across all specs. That does not mean normalizing their individual strengths and weaknesses, but striving for "full package" balance. Right now, the "full package" that is Holo, Spellbreaker, or Soulbeast is above and beyond that of any other spec.

I can't necessarily say I agree that these are the only specs that need nerfing. I see a Firebrand/Scourge combo on the enemy team, and my team has neither in ranked... unless our damage is out of this world, we're going to lose the match. Certain classes and combinations are generally overpowered (IE Rev+Thief or Scourge + Condi mirage), and the interaction between these classes needs to be addressed as well. While holo, soulbeast, and spellbreaker are strong, they usually have fewer of these synergies with other classes.

As far as duelists go, you're right -- holo, spellbreaker, and soulbeast are overperforming as duelists, because they're really good at more than just dueling. Holo performs well in teamfights, soulbeast is great at sniping/ganking, and spellbreaker can tank and CC stupidly well when played right.

[Vieux P.1238]

To respond to OP's. Engies is strong & has been for a while cuz of it's immense sustain while still able to dish out loads of damage. Especially under the hands of a good player.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

[coro.3176]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

• possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
• possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
• possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

• This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
• possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

idunno. just my thoughts.

It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.