Sic Em idea - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Sic Em idea

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  • Ryan.9387Ryan.9387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019

    How would you feel if sicem was altered to retain its 40% buff, but only for the next N attacks?

    This way sicem would be effective with a greatsword, but less effective with a longbow. It would make the unstoppable union->sicem->lb4->lb3 much less irritating to play against.

    Alternatively, apply the same treatment to unstoppable union, perhaps with a damage bonus for the next N attacks like revenant shiro leap.

    Basically, keep it viable in melee, reduce its effectiveness at maximum range.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Quadox.7834

    Ok, so here is what it's like for me when I read things that you say in forum threads:

    • Someone makes a statement with evidence & facts, and sometimes they drop very detailed explanations for the statement. Everything they are saying to support their subjective opinion makes sense, and I understand where they are coming from even if I don't agree with it.
    • You come in, and rather than respond with facts & evidence to support any actual claim that you could have made from your own subjective experience, you instead choose to use Lincoln Douglas styled debate tactics full of metaphysical & philosophical distractions in attempts to discredit the reputable statements of others.
    • And then I always wonder: "Is he going to actually make a statement with evidence for us to compare & contrast?" Forum users can't really have any productive discussions with you if you only ever argue but never make an evident statement of your own.

    That's completely and utterly false. Scroll up and read for yourself, and get back to me when you find the reasoning or arguments Eurantien used to conclude that power mirage is god tier.

    Just a heads up. Also, what Eurantien is telling you is true. Any Ranger player in the top 50 or in a good AT team would tell you the exact same things concerning how Ranger currently sizes up in top tier play vs. other classes/builds.

    Would any ranger tell me that power mirage at the top level is god tier? Perhaps that is so, but I have not seen much evidence for that.

    Ranger isn't as strong as people think it is. The problem we have with Ranger discussion is that the things that Ranger counters, it counters very hard, and those are the people who believe it is overpowered. Then you have the things that counter the Ranger, and they counter it so hard that those players believe Ranger isn't really a threat at all. With other classes, they may counter something just enough to where they should be winning or getting countered just enough to where they know they'll lose but they can still run. This is completely different for Ranger. Ranger gets to hard counter destroy some things, but get countered so hard by other things that they need to avoid those classes/builds entirely. <- It is this extreme variance in Counter vs. Get Countered, that makes Ranger balance discussion difficult to properly engage.

    I agree that some people overrate ranger (then again, people do likewise for other classes). Some other classes are better and more of a problem than ranger in my opinion.

    Subsequently, all of the above ^ is the same problem the Deadeye had. For all of the weakness it had vs most of the classes, there were some things that it countered so hard, that it truly was unfair. If you were to look at the balance of Deadeye pre-patch in a macro way, Deadeye was weak overall concerning its ultimate impact in a game. But if you were look at the balance of Deadeye from the subjective point of view of something like a Necromancer, we can see how unfair and frustrating it must have felt to be a Necromancer and get farmed all game. This is the same kind of effect that Sic Em Soulbeasts have. They counter some things too hard, but get countered too hard by other things. But at the end of day, the people complaining and saying how OP it is, will be heard over anything else, and this is how classes get nerfed into the dirt.

    It's fine to make that argument about deadeye, but don't employ misdirection by implying that only bad players (golds) had a problem with deadeye - this is untrue as even sindrener wanted deadeye nerfed and wanted stealth on dodge removed completely.

    I will say that is possible we have different balance philosophies (read: philosophies for making changes to a pvp game). I quite often criticize certain traits/abilities even when the class utilizing it isn't overpowered. For example, I wanted confounding suggestions (daze->stun) removed from the first week it was released even though power mesmer wasn't meta (aka during HoT and early PoF). I want some nerf to dagger storm even though thief is not currently optimal. Mantra of pain is another example. Turret engi. Clone death mesmer. etc.

    ^ Consider this before crying wolf

    When did I do that, or when would I have to do that, do you mean?

    // Yanim

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    Even if it is 'hard to set up' (as in you need one CC then stealth and activate 3 skills), if maul is hitting those numbers, you don't need all of those buffs to be one shotting most classes.
    Ranger is one of the only classes in PVP that can do both good range and good melee without sacrificing anything. That squishy marksman LB build has all of the tools to do that 26k maul hit. It is also one of the most mobile classes. Your example doesn't work when the 100k nuke is simply the backup to a mobile, super long range build.

    Even if we can't agree on what is overpowered or not, its unfun to be nuked into the ground in a single unblockable (and now unbreakable) shot from stealth. That got DE nerfed many times and was probably a factor in the guard hammer nerfs (and NO ONE was complaining guard hammer was OP). 'Just dodge' doesn't work when your opponent is invisible. Given rangers ability to chose its engagement range, them stealthing could mean they are setting up LB combo, buffing for OHK combo or disengaging to a new point. Your prep for all of those has to be wildly different.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zephoid.4263 said:
    Then make ranger top teir play not revolve around OHK burst. Buff it in areas that improve its sustain to counteract the loss, but sic-em has to go.

    Ranger main before it was viable.
    Fort Aspenwood.

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    1: Incorrect. While that may be the best damage you COULD do, this ranger was using LB/GS. The fight: Long Rang shot->i use F3-> Smoke Assault-> I Sand Flare-> smokescale knockdown ->I Trail of Angush to stun break->he merge->step behind pillar and stealth. From there i could not see what he was doing. As he had been using LB all game, i was expecting PBS->Rapid. Instead i'm hit for 25.3k with maul.
    https://i.imgur.com/d6vLOho.jpg

    2: I like how you are trying to defend 12-16k mauls. Vs a lot of marauder builds, thats a OHK. Compare your numbers to LITERALLY EVERY OTHER CLASS. No other class can bring both a ranged and melee weapon and be effective with either. Mirage is the only other one who comes close and the numbers for GS at range are anemic compared to ranger. That flexibility comes with a cost on most games, but for some reason, not here. 12-16k is pretty much the max that any other class in this game can do with a single attack and most of those require awful weapons (Killshot rifle War, Pile Driver staff weaver, (now)DE Rifle). For Soulbeast, you get it on one of the best weapons.

    The biggest problem with PVP is spike damage. They nerfed the hell out of DE and core guard for it, but the three biggest problems are still P Mirage/chrono, Soulbeast, and Herald. All 3 of those need serious re-evaluation in how many percentage buffs they can stack on single abilities. Lost Time/Mental Angush, Sic Em, and Forceful Persistance/Rolling Mists.

  • Flandre.2870Flandre.2870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019

    Delete sicem. The most one dimensional mongol spell in the game.

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    Note the time of game. Offense wasn't up yet. We had just concluded the first fight. So again, incorrect. There were no buffs besides what that soulbeast was bringing.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019

    @Zephoid.4263 said:
    Note the time of game. Offense wasn't up yet. We had just concluded the first fight. So again, incorrect. There were no buffs besides what that soulbeast was bringing.

    Then he was running Marksmanship and plowed you while you were a sitting a duck.

    If you watch the video, notice that every Necro gank happens when they for some reason decide to walk in the open, away from their team. <- Stop doing that and start paying attention to where the DPS Soulbeast is, so you can avoid it, in the exact same manner that the DPS Soulbeast needs to avoid his counters

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    So you are saying that because a single soulbeast is part of the enemy team comp, i have to zerg with the rest of the team for fear of OHK hits. Including just outside of my spawn. Not even remotely rational. The class has great access to swiftness, a 1000 distance leap, and a 1800 range. Necro has almost no access to even swiftness and i'm supposed to be picking the engagement here? Come on.

    Its pretty clear you can't be reasoned with. You acknowledge the insane burst a soulbeast can put out and the mobility being some of the best in the game, but have this absurd idea that because there exists a counter in this game, that insane damage is justified. You appear in every topic about rangers, vigorously defending the class against any perceived meaningful nerf. Have you even tried to play any other class in pvp to try to understand how hard it is to deal with soulbeasts even with classes that supposedly counter them? There is a reason they are one of the most played PVP classes.

  • Euthymias.7984Euthymias.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe we need Deadeye to become relevant again. It seems that even after their time around, people still havent learned how to deal with big ranged pressure :)

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    1. True one shot Soulbeast builds … "The most difficult to prepare & land burst in the game." … meaning there is absolutely no defensive skills in the build whatsoever. … predictable and clunky stealth combo to achieve 10 to 12s stealth …

    its not hard. if not dumb it will take maybe half an hour tops to learn. 10-12s of stealth is plenty on most maps to come out of los, meaning no one knows you're coming, and one shot someone. yay for counterplay. now lets talk about longbow, which is even easier. I was playing zerk soulbeast for maybe 10 minutes and was landing 10k longbow auto attacks. still had a heal, 2 stunbreaks, and all the beast skills ready. its so ridiculously easy a monkey could do it (probably do too).

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    1. True one shot Soulbeast builds … "The most difficult to prepare & land burst in the game." … meaning there is absolutely no defensive skills in the build whatsoever. … predictable and clunky stealth combo to achieve 10 to 12s stealth …

    its not hard. if not dumb it will take maybe half an hour tops to learn. 10-12s of stealth is plenty on most maps to come out of los, meaning no one knows you're coming, and one shot someone. yay for counterplay. now lets talk about longbow, which is even easier. I was playing zerk soulbeast for maybe 10 minutes and was landing 10k longbow auto attacks. still had a heal, 2 stunbreaks, and all the beast skills ready. its so ridiculously easy a monkey could do it (probably do too).

    Well then why is its representation so low in the top 100 compared to other classes and why is its representation nearly absent in tournament? If it were so strong and easy to use, wouldn't it be used often and by every team like any other strong build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2 PvP?

    Answer those two questions for me please. I want to hear someone else say it other than myself.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Well then why is its representation so low in the top 100 compared to other classes and why is its representation nearly absent in tournament? If it were so strong and easy to use, wouldn't it be used often and by every team like any other strong build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2 PvP?

    Answer those two questions for me please. I want to hear someone else say it other than myself.

    top 100 is irrelevant. if you can't understand why 10k auto attacks at 2k or whatever range and one shots from stealth are bad for the game then you're lost.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Zephoid.4263

    1. What I'm saying is that any time you play a Necro, you don't walk around alone, you stay with your team. That's what you do as a Necromancer, unless you're very experienced, have map awareness, actually understand what you're doing & why it is or isn't safe, and then you can roam sparsely. This isn't about just Soulbeasts, it's about Necro vs. everything, and vs. Soulbeast is no different. Why you seem to expect that it should be, is a bit confusing to me.
    2. Most Soulbeasts can chase you with Smokescale and then they have GS 3 leap. IF they use Eagle or maybe Rock Gazelle, then they are capable of 2x swoop leaps for stronger general rotational mobility & disengage power, but Smokescale/Pig Soulbeasts are not capable of disengagement and rotational power in the way that you seem to think they are. And in no way is a Soulbeast's chase power vs. your Necromancer as strong as a Spellbreaker or Thief or Herald.
    3. I don't show up in Ranger threads and defend Ranger. I show up in Ranger threads and point out the nerfs that it SHOULD be getting, rather than the short sighted and inexperienced nerf ideas tossed out by not Ranger mains, that would destroy the Ranger if implemented, in the exact same way that happened to Deadeye. I challenge you to go back through this forum and find a Ranger thread where I did not suggest a nerf to Soulbeast. Good luck.
    4. Big damage doesn't = overpowered or imbalanced. You need to look past the numbers and identify how the class as an individual entity is contributing to the game as a whole, and not just what it is bringing against you playing as the class that it counters. Is it bringing too much conquest winning power to its team? Is it not bringing enough? When evaluating balance in Guild Wars 2, you have to look at everything happening in a game as a whole, not just how a class effects you.
    5. In the past I have also mained: Guardian, Dragonhunter, Warrior, Berserker, Spellbreaker, Engineer, Scrapper, Necromancer, Reaper, and Scourge. I have always placed in Plat 2 or at least Plat 1 ratings at the end of seasons, or in previous pip seasons at the least high Diamond. Any time I seriously put together or get invited to an AT team that is actually trying, I usually win the final round of about every other AT I join. If I am kitten around with random friends who are rated lower, I usually can at least play middle way through the AT before we get mulched by a team that is trying hard. Hey, you asked a question so I answered. There it is.
    6. You said that "Soulbeast is one of the most played pvp classes." And you're probably right if you're talking bottom plat 1 and lower, because those are the players who are either unware of or choose to ignore obvious game mechanics that counter the Soulbeast, so it's easy to pew pew at those rating margins or even waddle over to someone and land a Maul. But at higher ratings and in competitive tournament, there is almost a complete absence of Soulbeast representation. Eurantien already explained why, and regardless or not if you want to believe this, it is true. Soulbeast at top tiers is simply not up to par with other classes. Do you want to know what is used at the top of the food chain?: Spellbreakers, Heralds, Firebrands, Necromancers

    All I'm trying to do, is shift other forum user's perceptions of balance onto the macro intra-class dynamic, and off of the micro individual class subjective. Coming in here and complaining about something in general is one thing. But making statements full of misinformation and suggesting detrimentally destructive nerfs in the wrong places and starting a bandwagon to support it, is another thing entirely. Suggest all the nerfs you want to Soulbeast or any other class! Just everyone appreciates it, if those suggestions have a bit of quality and accurate experienced explanation behind them. Simple complaint isn't really justifiable.

    Aight you've gone too far.

    You want to talk about short sighted and everything else and you cant even see that the OP is a very minor damage shave of 10% to improve the functionality of reveal overall especially for maps like the new coliseum.

    I get that it looks like a nerf at face value but its really not in the grand scheme of things, not once you start thinking about Hammer, Nhifel and coliseum and the practicality of an AoE reveal that wont be "obstructed" by a small bump on the ground.

    TLDR: I proposed a buff in exchange for a very, very minor nerf.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Easy fix?
    Reduce the multiplier in wvw and spvp down to 10%
    And only if you have soulbeast slotted.
    Done

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    40% increase to pet damage,15% damage increase when merged. Sounds about right.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There are no 10k auto attacks. That's the kind embellishment I'm speaking out against.

    outright denial? i'm surprised. we're not talking about marauders amulet here bub.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    I just posted a video demonstrating the performance of a Berserker Sic Em Soulbeast build, designed for higher mobility and higher ranged damage. It doesn't use Marksmanship
    For higher more consistent ranged damage, you need more frequent fury procs, quickness uptime, and lots of might. Marksmanship damage modifiers don't help ranged much when a Rapid Fire kills AOO, MOC, Remorseless in the first strike, rendering low & wasted damage output.

    first, you try switching amulets. then you try to use a suboptimum build. i'm starting to think you don't actually know what you're talking about. all those traits you listed are not the ones you use to reach 10k aa's. the burst uptime is the same as sic em duration and cd, you can even take shout cd reduction. I watched your video, you don't even have any might lol. before you ask, no, I will not give you and anyone else reading this the potential to use such a toxic build by posting a build link and giving a usage breakdown. call that convenient all you like, I don't care. i'm out.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Switching amulets?
    I don't even have might stacks?

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    At the most you're looking at 5k - 6k LB autos

    I thought maybe you were running marauders due to how low the damage on lb was. I had no idea you were referring to the above video. your lb autos are kitten because you don't pre stack might and don't have marksmanship. again, you refer to the wrong traits used. gl.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Still not gonna give us an explanation on how to land these 10k autos with this mysterious trait setup that you keep referring to? Makes sense.
    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    before you ask, no, I will not give you and anyone else reading this the potential to use such a toxic build by posting a build link and giving a usage breakdown. call that convenient all you like, I don't care. i'm out.

    an important thing to note, you probably won't hit 10k vs ppl running toughness amulets, but pretty close. sorry about not clarifying that. anyway, at such long range and with good mobility, even 5k is a bit ridiculous. some math, 4 of those would kill anyone. 5k is pretty basic damage with zerk soulbeast and shouldn't require much forethought. don't get ahead of yourself though, i'm not complaining about 5k hits at 2k range, again even thought that's ridiculous.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Still not gonna give us an explanation on how to land these 10k autos with this mysterious trait setup that you keep referring to? Makes sense.
    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    before you ask, no, I will not give you and anyone else reading this the potential to use such a toxic build by posting a build link and giving a usage breakdown. call that convenient all you like, I don't care. i'm out.

    an important thing to note, you probably won't hit 10k vs ppl running toughness amulets, but pretty close. sorry about not clarifying that. anyway, at such long range and with good mobility, even 5k is a bit ridiculous. some math, 4 of those would kill anyone. 5k is pretty basic damage with zerk soulbeast and shouldn't require much forethought. don't get ahead of yourself though, i'm not complaining about 5k hits at 2k range, again even thought that's ridiculous.

    Yes because all of the thieves and scourges I killed in that video that weren't getting hit by 10k LB autos were all running toughness amulets and had 100% protection uptime. Makes sense.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    snips

    here dood. garbaggio like this shouldn't exist, and if you defend it, well...
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54630/ezpz-soulbeast-squeezie#latest
    note that this is just pvp we're talking about, anyone at the receiving end (a lot at giving end too prob) of this in wvw would agree that this kind of thing is absolute trash and should be changed asap.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    snips

    here dood. garbaggio like this shouldn't exist, and if you defend it, well...
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54630/ezpz-soulbeast-squeezie#latest
    note that this is just pvp we're talking about, anyone at the receiving end (a lot at giving end too prob) of this in wvw would agree that this kind of thing is absolute trash and should be changed asap.

    Of course it's ANOTHER screenshot of Eternal Coliseum. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soul_Reaper

    Get real man.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Of course it's ANOTHER screenshot of Eternal Coliseum. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soul_Reaper

    Get real man.

    ok... not sure if that was active or not. might have been. you saying 8k autos are fine?

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Well then why is its representation so low in the top 100 compared to other classes and why is its representation nearly absent in tournament? If it were so strong and easy to use, wouldn't it be used often and by every team like any other strong build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2 PvP?

    Answer those two questions for me please. I want to hear someone else say it other than myself.

    top 100 is irrelevant. if you can't understand why 10k auto attacks at 2k or whatever range and one shots from stealth are bad for the game then you're lost.

    There are no 10k auto attacks. That's the kind embellishment I'm speaking out against. At the most you're looking at 5k - 6k LB autos vs. a no protection target and while the Ranger is fully buffed for its 10s burst. Then on GS around 4k on first two swings, but the 3rd strike can hit around 11k - 12k. During the 30s downtime in between Sic Em, autos are looking more like 2.5k 3.5k on LB vs. no protection, and maybe 2ks on GS swings and 5k on the 3rd swing.

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Zephoid.4263

    1. What I'm saying is that any time you play a Necro, you don't walk around alone, you stay with your team. That's what you do as a Necromancer, unless you're very experienced, have map awareness, actually understand what you're doing & why it is or isn't safe, and then you can roam sparsely. This isn't about just Soulbeasts, it's about Necro vs. everything, and vs. Soulbeast is no different. Why you seem to expect that it should be, is a bit confusing to me.
    2. Most Soulbeasts can chase you with Smokescale and then they have GS 3 leap. IF they use Eagle or maybe Rock Gazelle, then they are capable of 2x swoop leaps for stronger general rotational mobility & disengage power, but Smokescale/Pig Soulbeasts are not capable of disengagement and rotational power in the way that you seem to think they are. And in no way is a Soulbeast's chase power vs. your Necromancer as strong as a Spellbreaker or Thief or Herald.
    3. I don't show up in Ranger threads and defend Ranger. I show up in Ranger threads and point out the nerfs that it SHOULD be getting, rather than the short sighted and inexperienced nerf ideas tossed out by not Ranger mains, that would destroy the Ranger if implemented, in the exact same way that happened to Deadeye. I challenge you to go back through this forum and find a Ranger thread where I did not suggest a nerf to Soulbeast. Good luck.
    4. Big damage doesn't = overpowered or imbalanced. You need to look past the numbers and identify how the class as an individual entity is contributing to the game as a whole, and not just what it is bringing against you playing as the class that it counters. Is it bringing too much conquest winning power to its team? Is it not bringing enough? When evaluating balance in Guild Wars 2, you have to look at everything happening in a game as a whole, not just how a class effects you.
    5. In the past I have also mained: Guardian, Dragonhunter, Warrior, Berserker, Spellbreaker, Engineer, Scrapper, Necromancer, Reaper, and Scourge. I have always placed in Plat 2 or at least Plat 1 ratings at the end of seasons, or in previous pip seasons at the least high Diamond. Any time I seriously put together or get invited to an AT team that is actually trying, I usually win the final round of about every other AT I join. If I am kitten around with random friends who are rated lower, I usually can at least play middle way through the AT before we get mulched by a team that is trying hard. Hey, you asked a question so I answered. There it is.
    6. You said that "Soulbeast is one of the most played pvp classes." And you're probably right if you're talking bottom plat 1 and lower, because those are the players who are either unware of or choose to ignore obvious game mechanics that counter the Soulbeast, so it's easy to pew pew at those rating margins or even waddle over to someone and land a Maul. But at higher ratings and in competitive tournament, there is almost a complete absence of Soulbeast representation. Eurantien already explained why, and regardless or not if you want to believe this, it is true. Soulbeast at top tiers is simply not up to par with other classes. Do you want to know what is used at the top of the food chain?: Spellbreakers, Heralds, Firebrands, Necromancers

    All I'm trying to do, is shift other forum user's perceptions of balance onto the macro intra-class dynamic, and off of the micro individual class subjective. Coming in here and complaining about something in general is one thing. But making statements full of misinformation and suggesting detrimentally destructive nerfs in the wrong places and starting a bandwagon to support it, is another thing entirely. Suggest all the nerfs you want to Soulbeast or any other class! Just everyone appreciates it, if those suggestions have a bit of quality and accurate experienced explanation behind them. Simple complaint isn't really justifiable.

    Aight you've gone too far.

    You want to talk about short sighted and everything else and you cant even see that the OP is a very minor damage shave of 10% to improve the functionality of reveal overall especially for maps like the new coliseum.

    I get that it looks like a nerf at face value but its really not in the grand scheme of things, not once you start thinking about Hammer, Nhifel and coliseum and the practicality of an AoE reveal that wont be "obstructed" by a small bump on the ground.

    TLDR: I proposed a buff in exchange for a very, very minor nerf.

    I didn't comment on your direct suggestion or anyone else's fix suggestions at all. I have done nothing in this thread other than point out greatly misinformed & embellished claims on the performance of Soulbeast. As I've stated multiple times now, I don't care what anyone suggests as a nerf or even if they come in making a broad statement such as "Soulbeast deals too much damage." But don't take 3 separate build structures and speak of them as if they were all one build that was always capable of all of the parameters of all 3 builds combined, all of the time, and then upon that begin creeping in even more embellishments as @Stand The Wall.6987 did in his previous response with "it deals 10k autos." Please post a video or a screenshot of a Ranger dealing 10k autos in spvp. I'd like to see it. When people start doing such things, other people begin to believe it and then they all shout out together, and then Arenanet starts listening. And then our game receives nerfs in the wrong places, killing the viability of something entirely, and it takes months or years to fix.

    Yes, I am a Ranger main and No, I don't want to see my favorite playstyle "Ranger DPS" removed entirely from play again like it was in the HoT meta, or even shortly before HoT when LB/GS Power Ranger was nerfed into the dirt, or how Deadeye was neutered into a position that is actually worse than Renegade. I have come into several Ranger balance discussion threads now, suggesting nerfs to both Marksmanship and Sic Em. I am not defending Ranger vs. nerfing. I am defending Ranger vs. ill informed nerf suggestions that would bury the class.

    Even though I did not comment on your OP suggestion, you've brought it up. Usually I would never comment on anyone's statement for a fix, not unless they were trying to back up that suggestion with misinformed information. But since you've brought it into question with me, let me tell you what I think of it:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Instead of 40/20% damage increase how about a 10% damage increase and pet sniffs out any stealth class in a 600 radius and applies revealed?

    1. I'm not sure if you mean bring it to 50% damage or lowering it down to +10% only. If you mean adding on +10% to be 50%, it doesn't need 10% damage increase. Everyone is complaining about Soulbeast DPS to begin with so this is certainly not the answer. If you mean lowering it to +10%, that's too much. The Ranger will lose its viable DPS which is the ONLY thing that keeps it semi-competitive, and Sic Em would be useless. No one would take the skill anymore, as it would then be more advantageous to just run more sustainy Boonbeast builds with survival utilities, or even Druid.
    2. Sic Em doesn't need LOS, it just need a target. Yes, it already goes through walls and doesn't get obstructed.
    3. An AoE reveal even up to 600 radius that does not actually require a target would be severely over powered in the scenario that Sic Em maintained 40% or even 30% damage with it's current 10s timer. If it's an AoE that means it will effect multiple targets right? So you're telling me that it will reveal multiple targets and also put the damage buff on multiple targets for Mauls & Worldy Impacts? <- This would be absolutely devastating for waltzing into a team fight situation. This is no where in the realm of a nerf. That's a buff, and a big one at that. Even if the Sic Em damage was nerfed to 10% only, that would still be worth it for the AoE effect applying Sic Em to multiple targets. Honestly, it's a good thing that Sic Em can only target 1 player, once every 28s or 35s with no trait. If the Sic Em AoE only effected 1 target, then it would basically function as the exact suggestion that I made, but it would be a little stronger due to how it could reveal a target without requiring a target at all. If it maintained 40% or 30% damage, it would be worth considering as a fix, but lowering it to 10% would remove the skill from play and it would remove DPS Soulbeasts from all viability.

    I'm trying to point out the detrimental nature of altering Sic Em. That skill in conjunction with merge is what brought back LB/GS Rangers from the dead. Any small nerf or buff given to this skill, with greatly alter the performance of DPS Soulbeasts. This is why it is important that misinformation isn't being spread around about the actual mechanics of Soulbeast. Because when that starts, the quality of feedback & suggestions drops to zero.

    But this all goes back into the idea of "Is it actually overpowered or is it just annoying to deal with on the particular class that I play?" That's up to every individual player's subjective experience, to be able to recognize and form an opinion on, and that's A OK to do. But what isn't OK, is dropping embellished misinformation to fuel a nerf bandwagon. That's how we end up with shoddy balance.

    Jesus thats a wall of kitten.. no offense.

    1. Damage increase is 20% while merged, my suggestion brings it down to 10%.. so only a 10% loss in damage modifying which can be made up for with runes or sigils.
    2. If it doesnt need LoS why do I get obstructed with it from time to time? Anyway its more to help with coliseum and maps like Hammer.
    3. Yes an AoE reveal, the damage buff is on you anyway as far as I know.

    So overall in short its a small damage loss for better practicality. 6k attacks will do 5.4k instead, barely even worth looking at.

    As I said earlier in the thread, its going to get nerfed regardless but it would be nice if it wasnt over nerfed. Something rational like a very small shave to damage but improved functionality would be better than nuking the skill.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    snips

    here dood. garbaggio like this shouldn't exist, and if you defend it, well...
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54630/ezpz-soulbeast-squeezie#latest
    note that this is just pvp we're talking about, anyone at the receiving end (a lot at giving end too prob) of this in wvw would agree that this kind of thing is absolute trash and should be changed asap.

    Of course it's ANOTHER screenshot of Eternal Coliseum. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soul_Reaper

    Get real man.

    kitten man, LOOK AT THE MAP. Sword is unclaimed. Those are actual 10k autos. 2nd time you claim this kitten and aren't even looking an the screenshot. If you are going to try to disprove a claim, at least be correct.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly the easiest fix would be 40% on pets but reduce to 15% when merged. That would be in line with other damage modifiers no?

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zephoid.4263 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    snips

    here dood. garbaggio like this shouldn't exist, and if you defend it, well...
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54630/ezpz-soulbeast-squeezie#latest
    note that this is just pvp we're talking about, anyone at the receiving end (a lot at giving end too prob) of this in wvw would agree that this kind of thing is absolute trash and should be changed asap.

    Of course it's ANOTHER screenshot of Eternal Coliseum. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soul_Reaper

    Get real man.

    kitten man, LOOK AT THE MAP. Sword is unclaimed. Those are actual 10k autos. 2nd time you claim this kitten and aren't even looking an the screenshot. If you are going to try to disprove a claim, at least be correct.

    You were right about the timer in your .jpg, which means that the Ranger hit you with Sic Em, MOC and Remorseless from Marks.

    In his screenshot however, the timer is deep into the match. There is no way to tell who did or did not have the Reaper buff and who died to remove it from the mini map display immediately before the screenshot. It could have been his Ranger himself who had it that died. Regardless, every screenshot posted in this forum of would-be overpowered Soulbeast damage, always is a screenshot of Eternal Coliseum, and the numbers are always showing tweaked up averages from the norm. Got to wonder why that is.

    I'm not arguing with any of you that some things could use changing. I'm just pointing out overexaggerated claims for the sake of keeping things real. It's kind of an important thing to do while discussing the balance of a game.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    I'm not arguing with any of you that some things could use changing.

    cool man that's all I wanted to hear. not a very practical build to use, but its still pretty toxic nonetheless.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    Point Blank Shot should get better animation for better telegraph and Rapid fire should start with low numbers of damage and exponentially grow and the last hit should be the big coup de la grace and sick em should get some number changes for pvp. Also why does reveal skills need to be targeted, the name feels wrong since you have to put the debuff before the target goes into stealth.

  • Inoki.6048Inoki.6048 Member ✭✭✭

    With so many damage modifiers the class has I would remove the damage modifier from Sic'Em completely, make it only a reveal skill since every class should have one, decrease the CD to 15s or so and everything else could remain, such as grant regen and swiftness with traits, and added movement speed to the pet.

    Playing a Ranger I know I don't need Sic'Em to deal good amounts of damage with the right traits and gear. I recently re-specced to Druid and removed Sic'Em from my bar because Sic'Em sickens.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    1. True one shot Soulbeast builds … "The most difficult to prepare & land burst in the game." … meaning there is absolutely no defensive skills in the build whatsoever. … predictable and clunky stealth combo to achieve 10 to 12s stealth …

    its not hard. if not dumb it will take maybe half an hour tops to learn. 10-12s of stealth is plenty on most maps to come out of los, meaning no one knows you're coming, and one shot someone. yay for counterplay. now lets talk about longbow, which is even easier. I was playing zerk soulbeast for maybe 10 minutes and was landing 10k longbow auto attacks. still had a heal, 2 stunbreaks, and all the beast skills ready. its so ridiculously easy a monkey could do it (probably do too).

    Well then why is its representation so low in the top 100 compared to other classes and why is its representation nearly absent in tournament? If it were so strong and easy to use, wouldn't it be used often and by every team like any other strong build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2 PvP?

    Answer those two questions for me please. I want to hear someone else say it other than myself.

    What in the kitten.

    Wasn't this the SAME arguement inscissor used and was immediately shot down. Because " we cant balance around the top minority of players" ?!

    Either high burst is ok or it isn't.
    Either tanking 2-3 people is ok or it isn't
    Either we are going to balance around top tier players or we won't.
    Either we are balancing around " fun" or we aren't.

    You people need to find a ground and be consistent with it. Not throwing pitch forks everywhere as soon as something you dont like kills you. Then retracting as soon as your class is on the chopping block.

    Some of you praise the gutting of traits for others then. Then act like it's a crime against humanity when that same hate is directed towards your class.

    STOP IT.

    Pick a position that's healthy overall, not just because it's on a class you don't like.

    P.S. I realize I quoted you @Trever but not everything is directed towards you.
    I do appreciate you wanting to change peoples perspective on balance. But you shoulda been trying that a year ago. To little to late at this point.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    1. True one shot Soulbeast builds … "The most difficult to prepare & land burst in the game." … meaning there is absolutely no defensive skills in the build whatsoever. … predictable and clunky stealth combo to achieve 10 to 12s stealth …

    its not hard. if not dumb it will take maybe half an hour tops to learn. 10-12s of stealth is plenty on most maps to come out of los, meaning no one knows you're coming, and one shot someone. yay for counterplay. now lets talk about longbow, which is even easier. I was playing zerk soulbeast for maybe 10 minutes and was landing 10k longbow auto attacks. still had a heal, 2 stunbreaks, and all the beast skills ready. its so ridiculously easy a monkey could do it (probably do too).

    Well then why is its representation so low in the top 100 compared to other classes and why is its representation nearly absent in tournament? If it were so strong and easy to use, wouldn't it be used often and by every team like any other strong build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2 PvP?

    Answer those two questions for me please. I want to hear someone else say it other than myself.

    What in the kitten.

    Wasn't this the SAME arguement inscissor used and was immediately shot down. Because " we cant balance around the top minority of players" ?!

    Either high burst is ok or it isn't.
    Either tanking 2-3 people is ok or it isn't
    Either we are going to balance around top tier players or we won't.
    Either we are balancing around " fun" or we aren't.

    You people need to find a ground and be consistent with it. Not throwing pitch forks everywhere as soon as something you dont like kills you. Then retracting as soon as your class is on the chopping block.

    Some of you praise the gutting of traits for others then. Then act like it's a crime against humanity when that same hate is directed towards your class.

    STOP IT.

    Pick a position that's healthy overall, not just because it's on a class you don't like.

    P.S. I realize I quoted you @Trever but not everything is directed towards you.
    I do appreciate you wanting to change peoples perspective on balance. But you shoulda been trying that a year ago. To little to late at this point.

    When its time to defend his own class/build its fine . When someone else does that... its not an argument !
    Funny thing is ... when you look back in the past and Incissor posts...and at mesmer now... you start to realize he is right ... at everything

  • Euthymias.7984Euthymias.7984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2019

    @Solori.6025 said:

    What in the kitten.
    Wasn't this the SAME arguement inscissor used and was immediately shot down. Because " we cant balance around the top minority of players" ?!

    Its basically the DH effect, isnt it?
    Some things are really strong against the "average player" but has very little/no representation at higher end competitive play - either because people know how to play around its strengths and prey on their weakness or there are better options. Its like a world of difference between the top and the average. Still, balancing from the top down is one thing, but balancing because something is "unfun" or "toxic" was always questionable to me. If something overperforms, it should be brought down gradually, not smashed into a hundred pieces until its unviable. I kinda just wish we knew where the line is drawn as a metric for over/under-performance as things evolve by the developer's perspective more concretely though.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2019

    That post is from last year. A lot has changed since then. There has been an enormous amount of gradual DPS power creep to almost every other class. The Ranger no longer needs any damage cuts tbh. As Eurantien had even mentioned in a previous post, it actually could use a buff if Arenanet wants it to stay competitive in top tiers & AT play.

    ^ I know many of you get raged and throw up on keyboard when you read this, but its true. Right now, FB/Scourge/Herald/Holo/Scrapper/Spellbreaker dominate competitive scenes. Right now, DPS Soulbeast is just like Berserker or Power Mes, it's performance is fickle in the aspect that depending on what is in your team comp or against you, it could be a great idea to run or a detrimental error to run. Example:

    • Run DPS Soulbeast against: FB/Scourge/Reaper/Core Guard/Thief comp = Good idea
    • Run DPS Soulbeast against: Scrapper/Spellbreaker/Herald/Herald/Condi Mirage = Bad idea

    It's a counter class, that's all it is. It's to be used when it's advantageous and only when it is advantageous. If you run it when it isn't advantageous, it often ends up being in a situation where it can't do squat and dies the entire match. This goes back into my point of how it is too good vs. certain things, but absolute trash tier vs. others. Ranger doesn't need an ultra game wide nerf due to this "which would destroy all viability" What it needs is some kind of alteration that downs its potency vs. things like the cliché Necro gank, but enhances it's combat mechanic vs. the things that normally shut it down completely.

    Don't let the 5 people who are capable of running these specs to efficiency fool you into believing it is anywhere near a top tier meta, because it isn't.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    That post is from last year. A lot has changed since then.

    Since then a lot changed,now your class is on the line

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    That post is from last year. A lot has changed since then. There has been an enormous amount of gradual DPS power creep to almost every other class. The Ranger no longer needs any damage cuts tbh. As Eurantien had even mentioned in a previous post, it actually could use a buff if Arenanet wants it to stay competitive in top tiers & AT play.

    ^ I know many of you get raged and throw up on keyboard when you read this, but its true. Right now, FB/Scourge/Herald/Holo/Scrapper/Spellbreaker dominate competitive scenes. Right now, DPS Soulbeast is just like Berserker or Power Mes, it's performance is fickle in the aspect that depending on what is in your team comp or against you, it could be a great idea to run or a detrimental error to run. Example:

    • Run DPS Soulbeast against: FB/Scourge/Reaper/Core Guard/Thief comp = Good idea
    • Run DPS Soulbeast against: Scrapper/Spellbreaker/Herald/Herald/Condi Mirage = Bad idea

    It's a counter class, that's all it is. It's to be used when it's advantageous and only when it is advantageous. If you run it when it isn't advantageous, it often ends up being in a situation where it can't do squat and dies the entire match. This goes back into my point of how it is too good vs. certain things, but absolute trash tier vs. others. Ranger doesn't need an ultra game wide nerf due to this "which would destroy all viability" What it needs is some kind of alteration that downs its potency vs. things like the cliché Necro gank, but enhances it's combat mechanic vs. the things that normally shut it down completely.

    Don't let the 5 people who are capable of running these specs to efficiency fool you into believing it is anywhere near a top tier meta, because it isn't.

    I see you edited your post instead of making a new one, that's fine though I wish it would ping so I could at least respond to things a faster. Changing your stance when it is convenient is hypocritical, it's also kind of sad. But everyone is allowed to change their mind, just wish you had done so while you were calling for other classes to be nerfed to the core. See Solo's post above, pick a stance, instead of just flopping around when it isn't your class. I don't think anyone will rage at you for thinking your class needs a buff. Remember, incissor thought mes needed a buff and the "knowledgeable community" berated and harassed him. Now you call power mirage a counter build? Counter to what? people stuck in gold 1? It doesn't do damage thanks to people in the "Knowledgeable community" calling for nerfs even when it wasn't present in any high tier competitive arena. At least we got a couple of meme's from it though right?

  • FtoPScrub.5476FtoPScrub.5476 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2019

    Sic Em shouldn't be nerfed because it's OP - its objectively not.

    It should, however, be absolutely gutted because it's a no brain pepega skill that allows terrible players to find success in ranked leagues far above their skill level. Cheese builds like longbow sicem should not exist. They removed insta stun mantra mes and various forms of deadeye for the same reason. Even hammer core guard one shot combo was nerfed. There isn't any reason why they shouldn't do the same to sic em.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Quadox.7834

    Ok, so here is what it's like for me when I read things that you say in forum threads:

    • Someone makes a statement with evidence & facts, and sometimes they drop very detailed explanations for the statement. Everything they are saying to support their subjective opinion makes sense, and I understand where they are coming from even if I don't agree with it.
    • You come in, and rather than respond with facts & evidence to support any actual claim that you could have made from your own subjective experience, you instead choose to use Lincoln Douglas styled debate tactics full of metaphysical & philosophical distractions in attempts to discredit the reputable statements of others.
    • And then I always wonder: "Is he going to actually make a statement with evidence for us to compare & contrast?" Forum users can't really have any productive discussions with you if you only ever argue but never make an evident statement of your own.

    Just a heads up. Also, what Eurantien is telling you is true. Any Ranger player in the top 50 or in a good AT team would tell you the exact same things concerning how Ranger currently sizes up in top tier play vs. other classes/builds.

    Ranger isn't as strong as people think it is. The problem we have with Ranger discussion is that the things that Ranger counters, it counters very hard, and those are the people who believe it is overpowered. Then you have the things that counter the Ranger, and they counter it so hard that those players believe Ranger isn't really a threat at all. With other classes, they may counter something just enough to where they should be winning or getting countered just enough to where they know they'll lose but they can still run. This is completely different for Ranger. Ranger gets to hard counter destroy some things, but get countered so hard by other things that they need to avoid those classes/builds entirely. <- It is this extreme variance in Counter vs. Get Countered, that makes Ranger balance discussion difficult to properly engage.

    Subsequently, all of the above ^ is the same problem the Deadeye had. For all of the weakness it had vs most of the classes, there were some things that it countered so hard, that it truly was unfair. If you were to look at the balance of Deadeye pre-patch in a macro way, Deadeye was weak overall concerning its ultimate impact in a game. But if you were look at the balance of Deadeye from the subjective point of view of something like a Necromancer, we can see how unfair and frustrating it must have felt to be a Necromancer and get farmed all game. This is the same kind of effect that Sic Em Soulbeasts have. They counter some things too hard, but get countered too hard by other things. But at the end of day, the people complaining and saying how OP it is, will be heard over anything else, and this is how classes get nerfed into the dirt.

    ^ Consider this before crying wolf

    All we want is no more 10k+ auto attacks from what feels like 2000 range and a burst strong enough to let people go from mounted to downstate in under 2s.

    Ranger in WvW has the problem that it is WAY to strong in roaming but useless in zerging.

  • Asuran.5469Asuran.5469 Member ✭✭
    edited May 13, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    That post is from last year. A lot has changed since then. There has been an enormous amount of gradual DPS power creep to almost every other class. The Ranger no longer needs any damage cuts tbh. As Eurantien had even mentioned in a previous post, it actually could use a buff if Arenanet wants it to stay competitive in top tiers & AT play.

    ^ I know many of you get raged and throw up on keyboard when you read this, but its true. Right now, FB/Scourge/Herald/Holo/Scrapper/Spellbreaker dominate competitive scenes. Right now, DPS Soulbeast is just like Berserker or Power Mes, it's performance is fickle in the aspect that depending on what is in your team comp or against you, it could be a great idea to run or a detrimental error to run. Example:

    • Run DPS Soulbeast against: FB/Scourge/Reaper/Core Guard/Thief comp = Good idea
    • Run DPS Soulbeast against: Scrapper/Spellbreaker/Herald/Herald/Condi Mirage = Bad idea

    It's a counter class, that's all it is. It's to be used when it's advantageous and only when it is advantageous. If you run it when it isn't advantageous, it often ends up being in a situation where it can't do squat and dies the entire match. This goes back into my point of how it is too good vs. certain things, but absolute trash tier vs. others. Ranger doesn't need an ultra game wide nerf due to this "which would destroy all viability" What it needs is some kind of alteration that downs its potency vs. things like the cliché Necro gank, but enhances it's combat mechanic vs. the things that normally shut it down completely.

    Don't let the 5 people who are capable of running these specs to efficiency fool you into believing it is anywhere near a top tier meta, because it isn't.

    I see you edited your post instead of making a new one, that's fine though I wish it would ping so I could at least respond to things a faster. Changing your stance when it is convenient is hypocritical, it's also kind of sad. But everyone is allowed to change their mind, just wish you had done so while you were calling for other classes to be nerfed to the core. See Solo's post above, pick a stance, instead of just flopping around when it isn't your class. I don't think anyone will rage at you for thinking your class needs a buff. Remember, incissor thought mes needed a buff and the "knowledgeable community" berated and harassed him. Now you call power mirage a counter build? Counter to what? people stuck in gold 1? It doesn't do damage thanks to people in the "Knowledgeable community" calling for nerfs even when it wasn't present in any high tier competitive arena. At least we got a couple of meme's from it though right?

    He clearly pointed out to you that the post you quoted was from many metas ago.

    What you did is like if I quoted someone from 2013 saying that a Hambow was OP and then posted that quote on them in 2019 and expected them to still take the stance that a Hambow was OP.

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