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@Zephoid.4263 said:Then make ranger top teir play not revolve around OHK burst. Buff it in areas that improve its sustain to counteract the loss, but sic-em has to go.

The ability to stack damage mods is absurd. Nothing else in the game comes close to buffing so much in a single skill. Guard just got their conditional 50% crit trait nerfed and no dps guard was remotely close to top teir. Now that Unblockable goes through Magnetic Aura and Poison Cloud, even counters to LB are getting nerfed. 'just dodge' 3s of attacks is completely absurd. Much the same as 'just los' when 2/3 of these maps have easy areas where there are almost no LOS areas without disengaging completely and giving up points. Fights aren't just 1v1. LOS and dodge aren't always available and shouldn't be required-or-die. Especially not from 1800 range.

To top it off, i posted a screenshot a few weeks ago of a 26k GS Maul from stealth. At its worst, DJ could never do that and required a hell of a lot more setup.

There is a great misunderstanding of how difficult it is to set up and land a 26k GS Maul without the EC Sword Buff and how much risk vs. reward goes into that. There is also a great misunderstanding of how incredibly small the representation is of players who even run builds that could compare to that kind of damage. To my knowledge there is only one person in all of NA who even runs a build that could land a single strike 26k GS Maul without the EC Sword Buff, and that would be @"Ovark.2514" The Harsh Master, and as much as I love his unique playstyle, it isn't a build that can carry, and it's terrible in competitive play. You compare DE damage as being low to the 26k Maul, but you've got to understand that where it was easy for the DE to stealth in and 1500 range DJ, Rifle 3, and then stealth away and setup to do it again, a Ranger who is actually glass cannon enough to land a 26k Maul in close range risks everything when attempting to do so. If the Maul/WI fails, the Ranger isn't getting away, and he's so glass cannon that quite seriously a single Magebane Tether proc from an experienced Spellbreaker usually means instant death. Just be careful when comparing playstyles that you've never mained.

You guys need to start looking past numbers when deciding if something is balanced or not. Great example of what I mean here: Say there is a class that has the worst mobility in the game, no defensive skills whatsoever, but it can land a guaranteed unblockable 100k damage death strike once every 30s, but then it dies immediately if anything at all targets it, and I mean immediately. This may be annoying to have in a match and it may feel "OMG OVERPOWERED" but is it imbalanced? No it isn't. Every 30s it comes off respawns, downs one of your players and then it immediately gets downed by one of your players. Despite the tremendously large damage it possesses, when viewing its ultimate impact on the match, the class/build is balanced.

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How would you feel if sicem was altered to retain its 40% buff, but only for the next N attacks?

This way sicem would be effective with a greatsword, but less effective with a longbow. It would make the unstoppable union->sicem->lb4->lb3 much less irritating to play against.

Alternatively, apply the same treatment to unstoppable union, perhaps with a damage bonus for the next N attacks like revenant shiro leap.

Basically, keep it viable in melee, reduce its effectiveness at maximum range.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Quadox.7834"

Ok, so here is what it's like for me when I read things that you say in forum threads:

  • Someone makes a statement with evidence & facts, and sometimes they drop very detailed explanations for the statement. Everything they are saying to support their subjective opinion makes sense, and I understand where they are coming from even if I don't agree with it.
  • You come in, and rather than respond with facts & evidence to support any actual claim that you could have made from your own subjective experience, you instead choose to use Lincoln Douglas styled debate tactics full of metaphysical & philosophical distractions in attempts to discredit the reputable statements of others.
  • And then I always wonder: "Is he going to actually make a statement with evidence for us to compare & contrast?" Forum users can't really have any productive discussions with you if you only ever argue but never make an evident statement of your own.That's completely and utterly false. Scroll up and read for yourself, and get back to me when you find the reasoning or arguments Eurantien used to conclude that power mirage is god tier.

Just a heads up. Also, what Eurantien is telling you is true. Any Ranger player in the top 50 or in a good AT team would tell you the exact same things concerning how Ranger currently sizes up in top tier play vs. other classes/builds.Would any ranger tell me that power mirage at the top level is god tier? Perhaps that is so, but I have not seen much evidence for that.

Ranger isn't as strong as people think it is. The problem we have with Ranger discussion is that the things that Ranger counters, it counters very hard, and those are the people who believe it is overpowered. Then you have the things that counter the Ranger, and they counter it so hard that those players believe Ranger isn't really a threat at all. With other classes, they may counter something just enough to where they should be winning or getting countered just enough to where they know they'll lose but they can still run. This is completely different for Ranger. Ranger gets to hard counter destroy some things, but get countered so hard by other things that they need to avoid those classes/builds entirely. <- It is this extreme variance in Counter vs. Get Countered, that makes Ranger balance discussion difficult to properly engage.I agree that some people overrate ranger (then again, people do likewise for other classes). Some other classes are better and more of a problem than ranger in my opinion.

Subsequently, all of the above ^ is the same problem the Deadeye had. For all of the weakness it had vs most of the classes, there were some things that it countered so hard, that it truly was unfair. If you were to look at the balance of Deadeye pre-patch in a macro way, Deadeye was weak overall concerning its ultimate impact in a game. But if you were look at the balance of Deadeye from the subjective point of view of something like a Necromancer, we can see how unfair and frustrating it must have felt to be a Necromancer and get farmed all game. This is the same kind of effect that Sic Em Soulbeasts have. They counter some things too hard, but get countered too hard by other things. But at the end of day, the people complaining and saying how OP it is, will be heard over anything else, and this is how classes get nerfed into the dirt.

It's fine to make that argument about deadeye, but don't employ misdirection by implying that only bad players (golds) had a problem with deadeye - this is untrue as even sindrener wanted deadeye nerfed and wanted stealth on dodge removed completely.

I will say that is possible we have different balance philosophies (read: philosophies for making changes to a pvp game). I quite often criticize certain traits/abilities even when the class utilizing it isn't overpowered. For example, I wanted confounding suggestions (daze->stun) removed from the first week it was released even though power mesmer wasn't meta (aka during HoT and early PoF). I want some nerf to dagger storm even though thief is not currently optimal. Mantra of pain is another example. Turret engi. Clone death mesmer. etc.

^ Consider this before crying wolfWhen did I do that, or when would I have to do that, do you mean?

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Even if it is 'hard to set up' (as in you need one CC then stealth and activate 3 skills), if maul is hitting those numbers, you don't need all of those buffs to be one shotting most classes.Ranger is one of the only classes in PVP that can do both good range and good melee without sacrificing anything. That squishy marksman LB build has all of the tools to do that 26k maul hit. It is also one of the most mobile classes. Your example doesn't work when the 100k nuke is simply the backup to a mobile, super long range build.

Even if we can't agree on what is overpowered or not, its unfun to be nuked into the ground in a single unblockable (and now unbreakable) shot from stealth. That got DE nerfed many times and was probably a factor in the guard hammer nerfs (and NO ONE was complaining guard hammer was OP). 'Just dodge' doesn't work when your opponent is invisible. Given rangers ability to chose its engagement range, them stealthing could mean they are setting up LB combo, buffing for OHK combo or disengaging to a new point. Your prep for all of those has to be wildly different.

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@"Zephoid.4263" said:

Even if it is 'hard to set up' (as in you need one CC then stealth and activate 3 skills), if maul is hitting those numbers, you don't need all of those buffs to be one shotting most classes.Ranger is one of the only classes in PVP that can do both good range and good melee without sacrificing anything. That squishy marksman LB build has all of the tools to do that 26k maul hit. It is also one of the most mobile classes. Your example doesn't work when the 100k nuke is simply the backup to a mobile, super long range build.

Even if we can't agree on what is overpowered or not, its unfun to be nuked into the ground in a single unblockable (and now unbreakable) shot from stealth. That got DE nerfed many times and was probably a factor in the guard hammer nerfs (and NO ONE was complaining guard hammer was OP). 'Just dodge' doesn't work when your opponent is invisible. Given rangers ability to chose its engagement range, them stealthing could mean they are setting up LB combo, buffing for OHK combo or disengaging to a new point. Your prep for all of those has to be wildly different.

Let me correct a few inaccuracies that are in your statement before it helps fuel an inexperienced & biased bandwagon:

  1. True one shot Soulbeast builds, as you are basing your statement on, have literally "The most difficult to prepare & land burst in the game." To be able to actually land such damage, a Soulbeast has to do all of this: 1 - Run Marks/Beastmaster/Soulbeast, meaning there is absolutely no defensive skills in the build whatsoever. 2 - They have to use all melee weapons because of the next point. 3 - They must use a very predictable and clunky stealth combo to achieve 10 to 12s stealth preps to be able to prep the damage modifiers and still have enough time to position themselves for the one shot. This involves standing with their face to a wall, using Smokescale F2 field, start on Dagger/Warhorn side and use both dagger 3 leaps and warhorn 5 for the blast. They then swap to Greatsword which activates Clarion Bond for a 2nd free warhorn blast and leap one last time with GS 3. 4 - Then they have to merge with the pet immediately so that when Sic Em activates and the Maul swing into air to prep Attack of Opportunity activates, it applies in beastmode, which negates the Ranger of using its pet's CCs, Unstoppable Union for unblockable, or even Warhorn 5s for unblockables, because the Ranger won't be able to get into position quickly enough to benefit the 3 to 4s timers, at least rarely it happens. 5 - This means they must run Signet of The Hunt for 6s of unblockable, Strength of the Pack for Fury buff to trigger Remorseless, and there actually is no longer a way to trigger Moment of Clarity with this method after Taunt on Beastly Warden now activating after the WI instead of as it is happening. Any & all other CCs are considered strikes unlike Beastly Warden Taunt, so if they are used it would deactivate the initial Attack of Opportunity and Remorseless, which is not favorable. 6 - So on the intial approach of the one shot, the Ranger is working with these damage mods stacked: Attack of Opportunity 25%, Remorseless 25%, Sic Em 40%, Farsighted 5%, Two-hand Training 10%, Furious Strength 7%, Oppressive Superiority 10%. That is a total of +122% damage. If the Worldly Impact fails, whether it misses or you're still standing somehow, then they Hilt Bash to recharge Maul and CC you for Moment of Clarity to proc before the follow up Maul. The +50% off Moment of Clarity replaces the now removed Attack of Opportunity & Remorseless and now Twice as Vicious 5% takes effect so the Maul will actually be at +127% damage. If they have a method devised to quickly proc another Fury for Remorseless before the Maul, such as opting to take Live Fast over Unstoppable Union, then the next Maul will be at +152% damage. If it lands, the player it hits will die unless he is invuln or otherwise has some defensive method to escape the initial WI and follow up Maul. If these attacks fail to connect, the true one shot Ranger is now a sitting duck with every skill on CD, while running the glassiest cannon possible with only mid range mobility. Yes it is high reward, but it is ultra high risk. No mistakes can be made while attempting to launch this incredibly telegraphed and complex string of skills that must be done absolutely perfectly, to be able to land 26k+ Mauls & WIs without getting instagibbed by whatever it is that the Ranger is attempting to one shot.
  2. No, not all Soulbeast builds can launch similar ranged as similar melee. You are completely incorrect in your 2nd statement. Glass Cannon ranged with higher mobility may be able to land bigger Rapid Fires, but the Mauls & WIs are only around 12k-16ks. Soulbeast builds that land bigger Mauls & WIs all must run Marksmanship, which oddly enough is better for GS use than it is Longbow use. This means big one shot - two shot Rangers are all super glass cannon. The Rangers that are pewing you from afar are usually omitting the use of Marksmanship, and using Wilderness/Beastmastery, so they are a bit more sustainy with a bit more mobility. This means that at the best, their Sic Em Mauls & WIs are going to hit 12k-16k on targets with no protection buff, and sometimes less than that on low hits, like 9k - 10k. The point being here is that there is balance and trade off between choosing to optimize a Soulbeast for ranged or for melee. Most people take middle ground routes to sort of balance the damage between the ranged and the melee. So don't assume & encourage the idea that every Soulbeast is landing 25k Rapid Fires and 26k+ Mauls & WIs, because that isn't true at all. And in the case of traditional meta listed Boonbeasts, they aren't achieving anywhere near that damage output. So INB4 discussion that they are.
  3. I agree that it is unfun for certain classes/builds to deal with this, and I agree that Ranger shouldn't have so much access to unblockable attacks. I've previously suggested that ALL sources of those 3 & 4s unblockables, should be turned down to 2s only, and the 6s on Signet of The Hunt, should be turned down to 4s. But you've got to understand that from the Ranger's perspective, only a handful of things get countered by such Soulbeast DPS: Firebrands, Berserkers, Thieves, and Necros. Other classes have PLENTY of ability to counter play Soulbeast DPS in a balanced match up. Some other classes actually counter Soulbeast DPS: Heralds, Spellbreakers, Boonbeasts & Druids, Condi Mirage.

So when we really look at this, in terms of what a Soulbeast DPS is bringing to a match, is balanced. Yes it is annoying damage for the Firebrands, Berserkers, Thieves, and Necros, but you guys really need to understand that for all of the counter the Soulbeast brings against you, he feels all that same kind of counter heat when a Herald or a Spellbreaker gets on his butt and chases him around, or if he realizes he can't hold a node vs. a Booonbeast or a Druid or a Scrapper or a Condi Mirage. It seems to me that what we have here, is just another case of another class that counters certain things too hard, but doesn't have enough defenses vs. certain other things to be able to be viable in top tier play. <- This is the same problem that the Deadeye had. But before Ranger gets raped out of viability in the same way that the Deadeye did, I'd like to see the community acknowledge the real problem, and understand that it isn't that it is "overpowered in general vs everything", it's that it is "overpowered vs certain things and greatly underpowered vs. others." Soulbeast needs quality of life class reworks, not intra-class dynamic nerfing into the dirt.

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1: Incorrect. While that may be the best damage you COULD do, this ranger was using LB/GS. The fight: Long Rang shot->i use F3-> Smoke Assault-> I Sand Flare-> smokescale knockdown ->I Trail of Angush to stun break->he merge->step behind pillar and stealth. From there i could not see what he was doing. As he had been using LB all game, i was expecting PBS->Rapid. Instead i'm hit for 25.3k with maul.https://i.imgur.com/d6vLOho.jpg

2: I like how you are trying to defend 12-16k mauls. Vs a lot of marauder builds, thats a OHK. Compare your numbers to LITERALLY EVERY OTHER CLASS. No other class can bring both a ranged and melee weapon and be effective with either. Mirage is the only other one who comes close and the numbers for GS at range are anemic compared to ranger. That flexibility comes with a cost on most games, but for some reason, not here. 12-16k is pretty much the max that any other class in this game can do with a single attack and most of those require awful weapons (Killshot rifle War, Pile Driver staff weaver, (now)DE Rifle). For Soulbeast, you get it on one of the best weapons.

The biggest problem with PVP is spike damage. They nerfed the hell out of DE and core guard for it, but the three biggest problems are still P Mirage/chrono, Soulbeast, and Herald. All 3 of those need serious re-evaluation in how many percentage buffs they can stack on single abilities. Lost Time/Mental Angush, Sic Em, and Forceful Persistance/Rolling Mists.

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@"Zephoid.4263" said:1: Incorrect. While that may be the best damage you COULD do, this ranger was using LB/GS. The fight: Long Rang shot->i use F3-> Smoke Assault-> I Sand Flare-> smokescale knockdown ->I Trail of Angush to stun break->he merge->step behind pillar and stealth. From there i could not see what he was doing. As he had been using LB all game, i was expecting PBS->Rapid. Instead i'm hit for 25.3k with maul.https://i.imgur.com/d6vLOho.jpg

2: I like how you are trying to defend 12-16k mauls. Vs a lot of marauder builds, thats a OHK. Compare your numbers to LITERALLY EVERY OTHER CLASS. No other class can bring both a ranged and melee weapon and be effective with either. Mirage is the only other one who comes close and the numbers for GS at range are anemic compared to ranger. That flexibility comes with a cost on most games, but for some reason, not here. 12-16k is pretty much the max that any other class in this game can do with a single attack and most of those require awful weapons (Killshot rifle War, Pile Driver staff weaver, (now)DE Rifle). For Soulbeast, you get it on one of the best weapons.

The biggest problem with PVP is spike damage. They nerfed the hell out of DE and core guard for it, but the three biggest problems are still P Mirage/chrono, Soulbeast, and Herald. All 3 of those need serious re-evaluation in how many percentage buffs they can stack on single abilities. Lost Time/Mental Angush, Sic Em, and Forceful Persistance/Rolling Mists.

Dude you're in Eternal Coliseum in that .jpg - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Offensive_Inspiration - Exactly what I explained to you in my initial response. Because of how the multipliers stack in GW2, that buff is doing a lot more than it should be for DPS Soulbeasts.

Here is how it works:

  • You are dealing a flat 1000 damage.
  • You have two multipliers effecting you, +50% and +50%.
  • Most people think this works as (50% + 50%) = 100% * 1000 = 2000
  • But it actually works like this (1000 50%) = 1500 50% = 2250
  • So when Soulbeast already has many large damage modifiers, but then gets that +20% the END of the equation again, that buff is adding a ridiculous amount of damage by the end of the equation. The Maul started as a base 6000 damage attack, but by the end of this equation, due to how it stacks multiplicatively, that 20% buff is not adding 20% of 6000, it's adding at least +6000. This is why Soulbeast DPS can land huge hits in EC.

Every time someone posts screenshots of large Soulbeast damage, they are always screenshots of Eternal Coliseum, every time. And this is why ^ I'm not saying the damage modifiers shouldn't be put into check on the Soulbeast, but I am saying that posting screens of Maul/WI damage coming from Eternal Coliseum is not a realistic gauge of playing against the average Soulbeast, in the average game.

Oh and also, just because he had a LB and a GS, does not mean that he wasn't using a build tweaked for Marksmanship melee striking. The build I explained to you was simply detailing how to tweak for melee excellence and true nuclear death striking. If that guy in your screenshot were to use the build I explained, the damage listed would have been more like an ublockable 42k+, and no amount of protection or barrier would save you.

I'm not arguing with you that it is or isn't OP, I'm just pointing out facts about how Soulbeast actually works, so we don't get a bandwagon started, where everyone begins to believe that every Soulbeast build is capable of landing 25k Rapid Fires AND 25k Mauls/WIs in every map, while somehow still having the defenses of a meta Boonbeast. This is the kind of exaggerated views that happen if people like me don't show up to point out how things actually work. Sorry, someone needs to do it. Again, my stance IS NOT that "Soulbeast shouldn't be nerfed." My stance is that: "Soulbeast should be tweaked, so that it is stronger vs. certain things and less potent against others." Let's make that clear.

As far as your comments in 2, here are few more corrections:

  • Plenty of other classes in play deal just as much damage or more, than a Soulbeast. Right now, Heralds sit at the top of the DPS potential ladder, not Soulbeasts. Not only can a Herald single strike for just as much or more than a Maul or WI, but it has no elongated CD cycle for its kill bursts in the way that a Soulbeast does. The Herald can steadily pump out kill damage in a team fight to where its actual "Damage Per Second" is way way higher than a Soulbeast. Way higher. I don't understand why if a Ranger can deal 2 shots or 1 shots it isn't fair, but if a Herald or a Berserker or a Guardian or a DD Thief or a Holosmith or a Fresh Air or a Power Mesmer or even a Reaper does it, no one complains. How is it different? <- Serious question. I'd like to understand what exactly it is that gets under your skin about a Maul, more so than Power Shatter or a Decapitate "Which now instantly recharges each time you use it, instantly"
  • You said: "No other class can bring both a ranged and melee weapon and be effective with either" Sure, Ranger might be the superior ranged class in the game, but that's why it's called a Ranger. As far as your comment here, I believe that Static Discharge Rifle Holo, Deadeyes who use S combos with Whirling Blades, Reapers with Axes, Scourges who's attacks are ALL essentially melee to mid ranged death pits, ALL Mesmer builds with function equally well at range or melee, and even newer Ele builds that function the same as Mesmer in terms of ranged into melee transparency, are proof that your comment is a little embellished. I think what you were feeling is that "No other class has as good of range as a Ranger" and you're right, they don't. But what you're failing to understand is that the Ranger's melee capabilities are no where near the capabilities of: Spellbreaker/Herald/Holo/Reaper or debatably even some of the other classes. Rangers have to get in quick and at the right time to land that damage or die. They function like a Thief in terms of that melee. They cannot wade into a team fight like a Holo or Reaper or Herald or Spellbreaker or now Berserkers. They don't have the defenses to survive situations like that. Point being, they have damage in melee, but that's it. They have nothing else to attribute to "being good in melee."
  • Then you said: "Mirage is the only other one who comes close and the numbers for GS at range are anemic compared to ranger" My good dude, Power Mesmers can deal just as much or more damage than a Soulbeast DPS in like 1/4th of the amount of time, while CCing the shit out of you while they do it. If you don't understand how this works, I'm not going into explanation on this here.
  • You end with: "12-16k is pretty much the max that any other class in this game can do with a single attack" I don't believe you've faced off against some of the better players in the game when they team up together and run DPS steamroll compositions. Everything in the game now is capable of at least 2-shotting. <- And that's the truth, whether you want to believe that or not.

And my final point to boot is that I noticed in your screenshot, that you were a Necromancer. At some point you need to accept that things with long range just counter Necromancers, end of story. It's been that way since day 1 and it isn't going to change, even if you remove Sic Em from the game entirely. This goes back into my point about how Soulbeast is too strong vs. certain things, but too weak against others. IE: You'll never see certain players in here complaining about Soulbeast DPS, such as Spellbreaker mains or Condi Mirages. At the worst, they may view it as annoying but at least balanced. But if they're good, they know a Soulbeast isn't going to kill them unless the Soulbeast is +ing, or if he happens to be a rare top 5 Ranger main, someone who has enough experience to actually outplay something that should be countering them.

Watch this video if you want to see things from the Soulbeast's perspective, to understand more about it. Notice the lack of kill footage vs. Heralds, Spellbreakers, Holosmiths, Condi Mirages. In these matches, I have to essentially avoid the things that hard counter me or at least make a balanced match, because they neutralize the purpose of the build, which is to hard counter speed kill certain builds that normally provide unbreakable like team fight presence: FBs, Necros, Scrappers, and sometimes Thief/Ranger roamers. So in a match, you may feel like the DPS Soulbeast is dominating, but really he's just dominating you because you're a Necromancer. The truth is that he has to completely avoid things like Heralds that can + and gank at a moment's notice or he'll be the one that is getting countered. Point being again, it may be super strong vs. your Necromancer build, but it is super weak vs. other things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI80zsNaW0M

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@Zephoid.4263 said:Note the time of game. Offense wasn't up yet. We had just concluded the first fight. So again, incorrect. There were no buffs besides what that soulbeast was bringing.

Then he was running Marksmanship and plowed you while you were a sitting a duck.

If you watch the video, notice that every Necro gank happens when they for some reason decide to walk in the open, away from their team. <- Stop doing that and start paying attention to where the DPS Soulbeast is, so you can avoid it, in the exact same manner that the DPS Soulbeast needs to avoid his counters

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So you are saying that because a single soulbeast is part of the enemy team comp, i have to zerg with the rest of the team for fear of OHK hits. Including just outside of my spawn. Not even remotely rational. The class has great access to swiftness, a 1000 distance leap, and a 1800 range. Necro has almost no access to even swiftness and i'm supposed to be picking the engagement here? Come on.

Its pretty clear you can't be reasoned with. You acknowledge the insane burst a soulbeast can put out and the mobility being some of the best in the game, but have this absurd idea that because there exists a counter in this game, that insane damage is justified. You appear in every topic about rangers, vigorously defending the class against any perceived meaningful nerf. Have you even tried to play any other class in pvp to try to understand how hard it is to deal with soulbeasts even with classes that supposedly counter them? There is a reason they are one of the most played PVP classes.

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@"Zephoid.4263"

  1. What I'm saying is that any time you play a Necro, you don't walk around alone, you stay with your team. That's what you do as a Necromancer, unless you're very experienced, have map awareness, actually understand what you're doing & why it is or isn't safe, and then you can roam sparsely. This isn't about just Soulbeasts, it's about Necro vs. everything, and vs. Soulbeast is no different. Why you seem to expect that it should be, is a bit confusing to me.
  2. Most Soulbeasts can chase you with Smokescale and then they have GS 3 leap. IF they use Eagle or maybe Rock Gazelle, then they are capable of 2x swoop leaps for stronger general rotational mobility & disengage power, but Smokescale/Pig Soulbeasts are not capable of disengagement and rotational power in the way that you seem to think they are. And in no way is a Soulbeast's chase power vs. your Necromancer as strong as a Spellbreaker or Thief or Herald.
  3. I don't show up in Ranger threads and defend Ranger. I show up in Ranger threads and point out the nerfs that it SHOULD be getting, rather than the short sighted and inexperienced nerf ideas tossed out by not Ranger mains, that would destroy the Ranger if implemented, in the exact same way that happened to Deadeye. I challenge you to go back through this forum and find a Ranger thread where I did not suggest a nerf to Soulbeast. Good luck.
  4. Big damage doesn't = overpowered or imbalanced. You need to look past the numbers and identify how the class as an individual entity is contributing to the game as a whole, and not just what it is bringing against you playing as the class that it counters. Is it bringing too much conquest winning power to its team? Is it not bringing enough? When evaluating balance in Guild Wars 2, you have to look at everything happening in a game as a whole, not just how a class effects you.
  5. In the past I have also mained: Guardian, Dragonhunter, Warrior, Berserker, Spellbreaker, Engineer, Scrapper, Necromancer, Reaper, and Scourge. I have always placed in Plat 2 or at least Plat 1 ratings at the end of seasons, or in previous pip seasons at the least high Diamond. Any time I seriously put together or get invited to an AT team that is actually trying, I usually win the final round of about every other AT I join. If I am shitting around with random friends who are rated lower, I usually can at least play middle way through the AT before we get mulched by a team that is trying hard. Hey, you asked a question so I answered. There it is.
  6. You said that "Soulbeast is one of the most played pvp classes." And you're probably right if you're talking bottom plat 1 and lower, because those are the players who are either unware of or choose to ignore obvious game mechanics that counter the Soulbeast, so it's easy to pew pew at those rating margins or even waddle over to someone and land a Maul. But at higher ratings and in competitive tournament, there is almost a complete absence of Soulbeast representation. Eurantien already explained why, and regardless or not if you want to believe this, it is true. Soulbeast at top tiers is simply not up to par with other classes. Do you want to know what is used at the top of the food chain?: Spellbreakers, Heralds, Firebrands, Necromancers

All I'm trying to do, is shift other forum user's perceptions of balance onto the macro intra-class dynamic, and off of the micro individual class subjective. Coming in here and complaining about something in general is one thing. But making statements full of misinformation and suggesting detrimentally destructive nerfs in the wrong places and starting a bandwagon to support it, is another thing entirely. Suggest all the nerfs you want to Soulbeast or any other class! Just everyone appreciates it, if those suggestions have a bit of quality and accurate experienced explanation behind them. Simple complaint isn't really justifiable.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

  1. True one shot Soulbeast builds … "The most difficult to prepare & land burst in the game." … meaning there is absolutely no defensive skills in the build whatsoever. … predictable and clunky stealth combo to achieve 10 to 12s stealth …

its not hard. if not dumb it will take maybe half an hour tops to learn. 10-12s of stealth is plenty on most maps to come out of los, meaning no one knows you're coming, and one shot someone. yay for counterplay. now lets talk about longbow, which is even easier. I was playing zerk soulbeast for maybe 10 minutes and was landing 10k longbow auto attacks. still had a heal, 2 stunbreaks, and all the beast skills ready. its so ridiculously easy a monkey could do it (probably do too).

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:
  1. True one shot Soulbeast builds … "The most difficult to prepare & land burst in the game." … meaning there is absolutely no defensive skills in the build whatsoever. … predictable and clunky stealth combo to achieve 10 to 12s stealth …

its not hard. if not dumb it will take maybe half an hour tops to learn. 10-12s of stealth is plenty on most maps to come out of los, meaning no one knows you're coming, and one shot someone. yay for counterplay. now lets talk about longbow, which is even easier. I was playing zerk soulbeast for maybe 10 minutes and was landing 10k longbow auto attacks. still had a heal, 2 stunbreaks, and all the beast skills ready. its so ridiculously easy a monkey could do it (probably do too).

Well then why is its representation so low in the top 100 compared to other classes and why is its representation nearly absent in tournament? If it were so strong and easy to use, wouldn't it be used often and by every team like any other strong build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2 PvP?

Answer those two questions for me please. I want to hear someone else say it other than myself.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Well then why is its representation so low in the top 100 compared to other classes and why is its representation nearly absent in tournament? If it were so strong and easy to use, wouldn't it be used often and by every team like any other strong build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2 PvP?

Answer those two questions for me please. I want to hear someone else say it other than myself.

top 100 is irrelevant. if you can't understand why 10k auto attacks at 2k or whatever range and one shots from stealth are bad for the game then you're lost.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Zephoid.4263"

  1. What I'm saying is that any time you play a Necro, you don't walk around alone, you stay with your team. That's what you do as a Necromancer, unless you're very experienced, have map awareness, actually understand what you're doing & why it is or isn't safe, and then you can roam sparsely. This isn't about just Soulbeasts, it's about Necro vs. everything, and vs. Soulbeast is no different. Why you seem to expect that it should be, is a bit confusing to me.
  2. Most Soulbeasts can chase you with Smokescale and then they have GS 3 leap. IF they use Eagle or maybe Rock Gazelle, then they are capable of 2x swoop leaps for stronger general rotational mobility & disengage power, but Smokescale/Pig Soulbeasts are not capable of disengagement and rotational power in the way that you seem to think they are. And in no way is a Soulbeast's chase power vs. your Necromancer as strong as a Spellbreaker or Thief or Herald.
  3. I don't show up in Ranger threads and defend Ranger. I show up in Ranger threads and point out the nerfs that it SHOULD be getting, rather than the short sighted and inexperienced nerf ideas tossed out by not Ranger mains, that would destroy the Ranger if implemented, in the exact same way that happened to Deadeye. I challenge you to go back through this forum and find a Ranger thread where I did not suggest a nerf to Soulbeast. Good luck.
  4. Big damage doesn't = overpowered or imbalanced. You need to look past the numbers and identify how the class as an individual entity is contributing to the game as a whole, and not just what it is bringing against you playing as the class that it counters. Is it bringing too much conquest winning power to its team? Is it not bringing enough? When evaluating balance in Guild Wars 2, you have to look at everything happening in a game as a whole, not just how a class effects you.
  5. In the past I have also mained: Guardian, Dragonhunter, Warrior, Berserker, Spellbreaker, Engineer, Scrapper, Necromancer, Reaper, and Scourge. I have always placed in Plat 2 or at least Plat 1 ratings at the end of seasons, or in previous pip seasons at the least high Diamond. Any time I seriously put together or get invited to an AT team that is actually trying, I usually win the final round of about every other AT I join. If I am kitten around with random friends who are rated lower, I usually can at least play middle way through the AT before we get mulched by a team that is trying hard. Hey, you asked a question so I answered. There it is.
  6. You said that "Soulbeast is one of the most played pvp classes." And you're probably right if you're talking bottom plat 1 and lower, because those are the players who are either unware of or choose to ignore obvious game mechanics that counter the Soulbeast, so it's easy to pew pew at those rating margins or even waddle over to someone and land a Maul. But at higher ratings and in competitive tournament, there is almost a complete absence of Soulbeast representation. Eurantien already explained why, and regardless or not if you want to believe this, it is true. Soulbeast at top tiers is simply not up to par with other classes. Do you want to know what is used at the top of the food chain?: Spellbreakers, Heralds, Firebrands, Necromancers

All I'm trying to do, is shift other forum user's perceptions of balance onto the macro intra-class dynamic, and off of the micro individual class subjective. Coming in here and complaining about something in general is one thing. But making statements full of misinformation and suggesting detrimentally destructive nerfs in the wrong places and starting a bandwagon to support it, is another thing entirely. Suggest all the nerfs you want to Soulbeast or any other class! Just everyone appreciates it, if those suggestions have a bit of quality and accurate experienced explanation behind them. Simple complaint isn't really justifiable.

Aight you've gone too far.

You want to talk about short sighted and everything else and you cant even see that the OP is a very minor damage shave of 10% to improve the functionality of reveal overall especially for maps like the new coliseum.

I get that it looks like a nerf at face value but its really not in the grand scheme of things, not once you start thinking about Hammer, Nhifel and coliseum and the practicality of an AoE reveal that wont be "obstructed" by a small bump on the ground.

TLDR: I proposed a buff in exchange for a very, very minor nerf.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Well then why is its representation so low in the top 100 compared to other classes and why is its representation nearly absent in tournament? If it were so strong and easy to use, wouldn't it be used often and by every team like any other strong build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2 PvP?

Answer those two questions for me please. I want to hear someone else say it other than myself.

top 100 is irrelevant. if you can't understand why 10k auto attacks at 2k or whatever range and one shots from stealth are bad for the game then you're lost.

There are no 10k auto attacks. That's the kind embellishment I'm speaking out against. At the most you're looking at 5k - 6k LB autos vs. a no protection target and while the Ranger is fully buffed for its 10s burst. Then on GS around 4k on first two swings, but the 3rd strike can hit around 11k - 12k. During the 30s downtime in between Sic Em, autos are looking more like 2.5k 3.5k on LB vs. no protection, and maybe 2ks on GS swings and 5k on the 3rd swing.

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Zephoid.4263"
  1. What I'm saying is that any time you play a Necro, you don't walk around alone, you stay with your team. That's what you do as a Necromancer, unless you're very experienced, have map awareness, actually understand what you're doing & why it is or isn't safe, and then you can roam sparsely. This isn't about just Soulbeasts, it's about Necro vs. everything, and vs. Soulbeast is no different. Why you seem to expect that it should be, is a bit confusing to me.
  2. Most Soulbeasts can chase you with Smokescale and then they have GS 3 leap. IF they use Eagle or maybe Rock Gazelle, then they are capable of 2x swoop leaps for stronger general rotational mobility & disengage power, but Smokescale/Pig Soulbeasts are not capable of disengagement and rotational power in the way that you seem to think they are. And in no way is a Soulbeast's chase power vs. your Necromancer as strong as a Spellbreaker or Thief or Herald.
  3. I don't show up in Ranger threads and defend Ranger. I show up in Ranger threads and point out the nerfs that it SHOULD be getting, rather than the short sighted and inexperienced nerf ideas tossed out by not Ranger mains, that would destroy the Ranger if implemented, in the exact same way that happened to Deadeye. I challenge you to go back through this forum and find a Ranger thread where I did not suggest a nerf to Soulbeast. Good luck.
  4. Big damage doesn't = overpowered or imbalanced. You need to look past the numbers and identify how the class as an individual entity is contributing to the game as a whole, and not just what it is bringing against you playing as the class that it counters. Is it bringing too much conquest winning power to its team? Is it not bringing enough? When evaluating balance in Guild Wars 2, you have to look at everything happening in a game as a whole, not just how a class effects you.
  5. In the past I have also mained: Guardian, Dragonhunter, Warrior, Berserker, Spellbreaker, Engineer, Scrapper, Necromancer, Reaper, and Scourge. I have always placed in Plat 2 or at least Plat 1 ratings at the end of seasons, or in previous pip seasons at the least high Diamond. Any time I seriously put together or get invited to an AT team that is actually trying, I usually win the final round of about every other AT I join. If I am kitten around with random friends who are rated lower, I usually can at least play middle way through the AT before we get mulched by a team that is trying hard. Hey, you asked a question so I answered. There it is.
  6. You said that "Soulbeast is one of the most played pvp classes." And you're probably right if you're talking bottom plat 1 and lower, because those are the players who are either unware of or choose to ignore obvious game mechanics that counter the Soulbeast, so it's easy to pew pew at those rating margins or even waddle over to someone and land a Maul. But at higher ratings and in competitive tournament, there is almost a complete absence of Soulbeast representation. Eurantien already explained why, and regardless or not if you want to believe this, it is true. Soulbeast at top tiers is simply not up to par with other classes. Do you want to know what is used at the top of the food chain?: Spellbreakers, Heralds, Firebrands,
    Necromancers

All I'm trying to do, is shift other forum user's perceptions of balance onto the macro intra-class dynamic, and off of the micro individual class subjective. Coming in here and complaining about something in general is one thing. But making statements full of misinformation and suggesting detrimentally destructive nerfs in the wrong places and starting a bandwagon to support it, is another thing entirely. Suggest all the nerfs you want to Soulbeast or any other class! Just everyone appreciates it, if those suggestions have a bit of quality and accurate experienced explanation behind them. Simple complaint isn't really justifiable.

Aight you've gone too far.

You want to talk about short sighted and everything else and you cant even see that the OP is a very minor damage shave of 10% to improve the functionality of reveal overall especially for maps like the new coliseum.

I get that it looks like a nerf at face value but its really not in the grand scheme of things, not once you start thinking about Hammer, Nhifel and coliseum and the practicality of an AoE reveal that wont be "obstructed" by a small bump on the ground.

TLDR: I proposed a buff in exchange for a very, very minor nerf.

I didn't comment on your direct suggestion or anyone else's fix suggestions at all. I have done nothing in this thread other than point out greatly misinformed & embellished claims on the performance of Soulbeast. As I've stated multiple times now, I don't care what anyone suggests as a nerf or even if they come in making a broad statement such as "Soulbeast deals too much damage." But don't take 3 separate build structures and speak of them as if they were all one build that was always capable of all of the parameters of all 3 builds combined, all of the time, and then upon that begin creeping in even more embellishments as @Stand The Wall.6987 did in his previous response with "it deals 10k autos." Please post a video or a screenshot of a Ranger dealing 10k autos in spvp. I'd like to see it. When people start doing such things, other people begin to believe it and then they all shout out together, and then Arenanet starts listening. And then our game receives nerfs in the wrong places, killing the viability of something entirely, and it takes months or years to fix.

Yes, I am a Ranger main and No, I don't want to see my favorite playstyle "Ranger DPS" removed entirely from play again like it was in the HoT meta, or even shortly before HoT when LB/GS Power Ranger was nerfed into the dirt, or how Deadeye was neutered into a position that is actually worse than Renegade. I have come into several Ranger balance discussion threads now, suggesting nerfs to both Marksmanship and Sic Em. I am not defending Ranger vs. nerfing. I am defending Ranger vs. ill informed nerf suggestions that would bury the class.

Even though I did not comment on your OP suggestion, you've brought it up. Usually I would never comment on anyone's statement for a fix, not unless they were trying to back up that suggestion with misinformed information. But since you've brought it into question with me, let me tell you what I think of it:

@sephiroth.4217 said:Instead of 40/20% damage increase how about a 10% damage increase and pet sniffs out any stealth class in a 600 radius and applies revealed?

  1. I'm not sure if you mean bring it to 50% damage or lowering it down to +10% only. If you mean adding on +10% to be 50%, it doesn't need 10% damage increase. Everyone is complaining about Soulbeast DPS to begin with so this is certainly not the answer. If you mean lowering it to +10%, that's too much. The Ranger will lose its viable DPS which is the ONLY thing that keeps it semi-competitive, and Sic Em would be useless. No one would take the skill anymore, as it would then be more advantageous to just run more sustainy Boonbeast builds with survival utilities, or even Druid.
  2. Sic Em doesn't need LOS, it just need a target. Yes, it already goes through walls and doesn't get obstructed.
  3. An AoE reveal even up to 600 radius that does not actually require a target would be severely over powered in the scenario that Sic Em maintained 40% or even 30% damage with it's current 10s timer. If it's an AoE that means it will effect multiple targets right? So you're telling me that it will reveal multiple targets and also put the damage buff on multiple targets for Mauls & Worldy Impacts? <- This would be absolutely devastating for waltzing into a team fight situation. This is no where in the realm of a nerf. That's a buff, and a big one at that. Even if the Sic Em damage was nerfed to 10% only, that would still be worth it for the AoE effect applying Sic Em to multiple targets. Honestly, it's a good thing that Sic Em can only target 1 player, once every 28s or 35s with no trait. If the Sic Em AoE only effected 1 target, then it would basically function as the exact suggestion that I made, but it would be a little stronger due to how it could reveal a target without requiring a target at all. If it maintained 40% or 30% damage, it would be worth considering as a fix, but lowering it to 10% would remove the skill from play and it would remove DPS Soulbeasts from all viability.

I'm trying to point out the detrimental nature of altering Sic Em. That skill in conjunction with merge is what brought back LB/GS Rangers from the dead. Any small nerf or buff given to this skill, with greatly alter the performance of DPS Soulbeasts. This is why it is important that misinformation isn't being spread around about the actual mechanics of Soulbeast. Because when that starts, the quality of feedback & suggestions drops to zero.

But this all goes back into the idea of "Is it actually overpowered or is it just annoying to deal with on the particular class that I play?" That's up to every individual player's subjective experience, to be able to recognize and form an opinion on, and that's A OK to do. But what isn't OK, is dropping embellished misinformation to fuel a nerf bandwagon. That's how we end up with shoddy balance.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:There are no 10k auto attacks. That's the kind embellishment I'm speaking out against.

outright denial? i'm surprised. we're not talking about marauders amulet here bub.

You are hilarious my good bro.

I just posted a video demonstrating the performance of a Berserker Sic Em Soulbeast build, designed for higher mobility and higher ranged damage. It doesn't use Marksmanship, so you won't see any mauls or WIs past 20k. You can go ahead and watch that if you want a realistic demo of damage capabilities. I'll go ahead and let you argue with that video footage instead of me.

For higher more consistent ranged damage, you need more frequent fury procs, quickness uptime, and lots of might. Marksmanship damage modifiers don't help ranged much when a Rapid Fire kills AOO, MOC, Remorseless in the first strike, rendering low & wasted damage output.

If you want Maul/Wi one shot power, you have to sacrifice such frequent fury, long stacking might, and quickness uptime, which leaves the LB side really only for LB 2 and LB 4 and LB 3 disengage. The autos will be shit damage without the elongated buffs. It also has to sacrifice quite a bit of mobility.

~ Spoiler alert, you aren't going to see 10k autos coming off that LB, even from a build tweaked for LB damage.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I just posted a video demonstrating the performance of a Berserker Sic Em Soulbeast build, designed for higher mobility and higher ranged damage. It doesn't use MarksmanshipFor higher more consistent ranged damage, you need more frequent fury procs, quickness uptime, and lots of might. Marksmanship damage modifiers don't help ranged much when a Rapid Fire kills AOO, MOC, Remorseless in the first strike, rendering low & wasted damage output.

first, you try switching amulets. then you try to use a suboptimum build. i'm starting to think you don't actually know what you're talking about. all those traits you listed are not the ones you use to reach 10k aa's. the burst uptime is the same as sic em duration and cd, you can even take shout cd reduction. I watched your video, you don't even have any might lol. before you ask, no, I will not give you and anyone else reading this the potential to use such a toxic build by posting a build link and giving a usage breakdown. call that convenient all you like, I don't care. i'm out.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:I just posted a video demonstrating the performance of a Berserker Sic Em Soulbeast build, designed for higher mobility and
higher ranged damage. It doesn't use Marksmanship
For higher more consistent ranged damage, you need more frequent fury procs, quickness uptime, and lots of might.
Marksmanship damage modifiers don't help ranged much
when a Rapid Fire kills
AOO, MOC, Remorseless
in the first strike, rendering low & wasted damage output.

first, you try switching amulets. then you try to use a suboptimum build. i'm starting to think you don't actually know what you're talking about. all those traits you listed are not the ones you use to reach 10k aa's. the burst uptime is the same as sic em duration and cd, you can even take shout cd reduction. I watched your video, you don't even have any might lol. before you ask, no, I will not give you and anyone else reading this the potential to use such a toxic build by posting a build link and giving a usage breakdown. call that convenient all you like, I don't care. i'm out.

Switching amulets? My good bro, one does not achieve 28 and 32k Rapid Fires by not running Berserker. It shows in the beginning of the video, that I am running a Berserker amulet. What are you doing right now? Those aren't the traits you run to achieve 10k autos lol? Ok, well then enlighten us as to the traits that one would run, to achieve 10k autos. I'd love to hear this, and don't say "Marksmanship modifiers" as if it were realistic to prime a bunch of Marksmanship modifiers so you could blow them on a LB auto 1. Get real. Let's see you explain something rather than just toss misinformation. I don't even have might stacks? Dude almost every time I burst, I have 25 stacks of might due to Strength of the Pack, which anyone could see if they watched the video.

I have asked you multiple questions since you've been posting in this thread and you have not once responded with any answer. All you're doing is throwing embellished misinformation in attempts to discredit me, fuel the bandwagon, and now to defend yourself so you don't looks silly. I don't know why some of you even try this tactic with me, when you know it doesn't work. I am the one person in this forum that actually will take my time to post detailed feedback with deep explanation, with videos attached that demonstrate the mechanics and/or numbers that I am discussing.

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