The quality of players has never been worse.

[Flandre.2870]

xxxxxxxxxx

[Elrond.9486]

@choovanski.5462 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease.

why would anyone who actually wants a skill based game play this mess?

i came back for a few days after almost 2 years gone, didn’t last. pvp is powercreeped skillless spam right now, i literally killed people with just arc divider. this game is a joke, & anyone with even half a brain will realise this & quit.

thats why population is low & players suck, it’s a reflection of the quality of the pvp experience.

I agree completely here, but god kitten... The combat system in GW2 is a million miles better than anything else out there.

Nothing.

Comes.

Close.

no

gw2 pre trait rework into specialisations was good combat

all the nuances of that combat system have been ruined by powercreep. gw2 in it’s current state has some of the worst pvp out there. it’s an absolute joke

Please tell me which MMO has mechanically better action PvP and I'll dive right in. Have tried the PvP of the other big MMOs and they feel so floaty and disconnected/clunky.

[bladezero.9470]

@Elrond.9486 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease.

why would anyone who actually wants a skill based game play this mess?

i came back for a few days after almost 2 years gone, didn’t last. pvp is powercreeped skillless spam right now, i literally killed people with just arc divider. this game is a joke, & anyone with even half a brain will realise this & quit.

thats why population is low & players suck, it’s a reflection of the quality of the pvp experience.

I agree completely here, but god kitten... The combat system in GW2 is a million miles better than anything else out there.

Nothing.

Comes.

Close.

no

gw2 pre trait rework into specialisations was good combat

all the nuances of that combat system have been ruined by powercreep. gw2 in it’s current state has some of the worst pvp out there. it’s an absolute joke

Please tell me which MMO has mechanically better action PvP and I'll dive right in. Have tried the PvP of the other big MMOs and they feel so floaty and disconnected/clunky.

This.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Nah...quality is the same. Difference is that now some people are starting to realize it.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

At this point, the only way to improve the overall skill is reducing higher skill floors

• Slowing the overall pace of the game so players can actually see what's going on.
• Reducing skill clutter and visual noise.
• New mechanics that reduce desirability of skill spam like cumulative stun resistance that gives a free stun break under heaving CC pressure. Or cumulative critical resistance that reduces damage from ferocity from stacking many skills with low damage per hit or no activation time. Burst would then be more effective the less skills they have, making more important to stack vulnerability and using high damage single-strike skills to finish off enemies rather than stacking as many skills as possible in the least possible time.

And giving new players learning tools:

• Better death breakdowns.
• Better combat logs.
• "Death cam"
• Match replays.
• Spectator mode from ally perspectives by clicking ally HP bars while defeated and waiting for respawn.
• Better NPC AI
• Basic tutorials.
• Advanced tutorials with rewarding challenges.

[Arkantos.7460]

i remember times wherer we were 300 points behind enemy teams and get our comeback with successful teamplay...today ppl go afk when your 100 points behind and spending much time on insulting other players... thats a shamebut i like to play with a friends a climb steady the leatherboard :)

PS: the reason of all is also veterans palying with newbies .... I cant explain everytime in chat why I do things like I do because I have more knowledge about classes in different situations then others ... sometimes its better to cleave downed ppl instead of stompiing ....

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@witcher.3197 said:Because it's the best MMO combat out there by far. Everything else about the game just happens to suck but we're too addicted to quit for good.

Sigh

Its true.

@OP

So, some rambling;There's several things that are causing this deterioration, imo, but the two most glaring are: The catch-22 regarding the ranking system, and insulated builds that acquire toxic players.

The only way to get rid of the latter problem (or lessen it) is to aggressively balance anything that encourages a playstyle that does not allow reasonable counterplay.

All heavy damage needs to be telegraphed or have significant visual indication that it is coming.All damage that can be hidden in stealth needs to be moderated so it cannot do an entire HP bars worth of damage at once.Classes that can be built to heal heavily need to have their damage moderated so that they cannot also output significant DPS at the same time.Classes that can be built to damage heavily, whether condi or otherwise, need to have their sustain moderated so that they cannot also be tanky at the same time.

The longer builds that ignore one of these principles exist, the more toxic players will find, adopt, and harass the playerbase with them. The players that fit OPs description are usually the ones that run the most insulated builds they can find. It doesn't matter really if the build/class itself is mechanically easy to play, or requires memorization of a particular combo string to do significant damage.

Then there's the whole issue of ranked matches being generally a gamble. No idea how to solve that one. If you allow players to group by cherry picking you're going to have superteams/win trading for Ranking. If you disallow it you're going to have everyone being frustrated that newplayer.6969 is tanking the team because he doesn't know how to play thief in conquest, after the MMR system cant find anyone similar to your current standing to draft in, or that upsetplayer.1337 is actively sandbagging the team because he got tilted that nobody followed his dumb map-drawn instructions and found himself at far 3v1.

At this point, though, I am leaning toward superteams being the lesser evil. Being able to group together for ranking (or being forced to, really) would probably force people to improve so they can be drafted onto a team, as long as win trading is monitored with a close eye and the offenders that try to do it get banned for a few seasons.

[Solori.6025]

@Elrond.9486 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease.

why would anyone who actually wants a skill based game play this mess?

i came back for a few days after almost 2 years gone, didn’t last. pvp is powercreeped skillless spam right now, i literally killed people with just arc divider. this game is a joke, & anyone with even half a brain will realise this & quit.

thats why population is low & players suck, it’s a reflection of the quality of the pvp experience.

I agree completely here, but god kitten... The combat system in GW2 is a million miles better than anything else out there.

Nothing.

Comes.

Close.

no

gw2 pre trait rework into specialisations was good combat

all the nuances of that combat system have been ruined by powercreep. gw2 in it’s current state has some of the worst pvp out there. it’s an absolute joke

Please tell me which MMO has mechanically better action PvP and I'll dive right in. Have tried the PvP of the other big MMOs and they feel so floaty and disconnected/clunky.

Honestly if Black Desert wasn't a mass pay to win grind wall I would recommend that.It was fun for all of a month or so.Blade and Soul would have been great but bots ruined the game for me.Still it doesn't hurt to check out other games during content droughts. That's what GW2 was designed for.

I don't think anyone will release an MMO with this type of action combat.That's honestly what's keeping this game afloat.

[shadowpass.4236]

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:At this point, the only way to improve the overall skill is reducing higher skill floors

• Slowing the overall pace of the game so players can actually see what's going on.
• Reducing skill clutter and visual noise.
• New mechanics that reduce desirability of skill spam like cumulative stun resistance that gives a free stun break under heaving CC pressure. Or cumulative critical resistance that reduces damage from ferocity from stacking many skills with low damage per hit or no activation time. Burst would then be more effective the less skills they have, making more important to stack vulnerability and using high damage single-strike skills to finish off enemies rather than stacking as many skills as possible in the least possible time.

And giving new players learning tools:

• Better death breakdowns.
• Better combat logs.
• "Death cam"
• Match replays.
• Spectator mode from ally perspectives by clicking ally HP bars while defeated and waiting for respawn.
• Better NPC AI
• Basic tutorials.
• Advanced tutorials with rewarding challenges.

Lowering the skill ceiling is one of the worst ways to balance a game. You're nullifying the effort and practice the top players put in to actually improve just so people who don't want to work as hard can be on the same level as them.

Although I think you might've just been using the wrong term. In this game, builds have been powercreeped to make it easier for new players to compete against more experienced ones. In other words, damage and survivability have both gone through the roof compared to what the game was like on release. However, as a consequence, these new players lose even harder/faster when facing people who play near-optimally. The correct way to go about this is to significantly RAISE the skill ceiling. To do this, Anet would have to lower the reliance on passive defenses/offenses like boons and random procs, increase the reliance/access to active defenses like dodges, and possibly add a snowball mechanic similar to MOBAs where performing exceptionally well during a match gives you a stat advantage over your enemies. Rewarding players more heavily for properly timing/hitting/avoiding attacks will result in a more skill-based game.

If you really want to improve the overall skill of the playerbase, you need to add very good incentives to improve as well as very clear guidelines detailing what helps your team win and what doesn't. These rewards can include things like: exclusive cosmetics the higher up you rank, significantly higher gold gained for winning and ZERO rewards for losing, and more. Currently, GW2 rewards you whether you win or lose so there isn't really any incentive to try if you don't care about your ranking.

Asides from your suggestions to lower the skill ceiling and slow the overall pace of the game, I agree with the rest of what you said.

[Sampson.2403]

Lol, i think [that] the solo/duo que environment inherently breeds toxicity. Your teammates are your potential best men at your weddings when they make great plays and your sworn worst enemies when they make a mistake.

As others have said though, the unrivaled PvP/general combat mechanics in this game are what keep me playing.

[Crab Fear.1624]

Is the population the same size? Is it growing, shrinking, rotating, or staying the same?

If we have vets who have put in 3k-10k games, and they are not the quality one is looking for...yikes. (doing the same thing over and over, no changes...what does that define?)

What if the only thing left in pvp are some very new players, pve playes farming for ascended gear, and bitter old vet's who can't take off their rose tinted glasses?

If the population is shrinking you may get games with players that are way below your skill.

If it is rotating, it is not GREAT (tony the tiger voice) enough to keep anyone around long term, but hmmmmm...aren't there pvp games that do keep players around?

If it's staying the same.....no it's not staying the same. I know players that do not play anymore, they are gone gone gone GOOOOOOOOOONE.

You say it's great mechanics, the best, nothing comes close, but the quality of players is bad. You see, if any of the above is true, how GREAT (tony the tiger voice) can it really be?

Taking a break...you will just come back to something worse.

We wait for on demand tournaments (constant team games with decent rewards, so we can play with our mates), that is WHY I AM STILL HERE.

RANKED will never be better than the day before.

[Khalisto.5780]

@bladezero.9470 said:What can we do to improve the players? Honestly, is there even any hope for this game mode?

Maybe it's time to move on...

To improve players you have to be at least top 50 and start a pvp school on youtube, not a class focus school, something in the lines what happy no is doing, but it's still too class mechanically focused.

There are ppl looking for information to improve their gameplay but that info is not out there.

High rank ppl get bothered explaining rotations, roles and overall stuff on what you should do decision makingwise and more general tips about the game.

Today I was watching some of my games and I realized until gold 3 the impact of general knowledge is like 80% what makes you win or lose.

And then there's the toxicity problem and I have no clue what to do about it

There are other stuff like duo Q and matchfixing messing up the game

[shadowpass.4236]

@Khalisto.5780 said:

@"bladezero.9470" said:What can we do to improve the players? Honestly, is there even any hope for this game mode?

Maybe it's time to move on...

To improve players you have to be at least top 50 and start a pvp school on youtube, not a class focus school, something in the lines what happy no is doing, but it's still too class mechanically focused.

There are ppl looking for information to improve their gameplay but that info is not out there.

High rank ppl get bothered explaining rotations, roles and overall stuff on what you should do decision makingwise and more general tips about the game.

Today I was watching some of my games and I realized until gold 3 the impact of general knowledge is like 80% what makes you win or lose.

And then there's the toxicity problem and I have no clue what to do about it

There are other stuff like duo Q and matchfixing messing up the game

Conquest is a very simple gamemode. If you want to improve your gameplay, pretend this scoring system exists and follow it. Only do things that accumulate Positive/Invisible Value and avoid things that would result in Negative Value.

[Khalisto.5780]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Khalisto.5780 said:

@"bladezero.9470" said:What can we do to improve the players? Honestly, is there even any hope for this game mode?

Maybe it's time to move on...

To improve players you have to be at least top 50 and start a pvp school on youtube, not a class focus school, something in the lines what happy no is doing, but it's still too class mechanically focused.

There are ppl looking for information to improve their gameplay but that info is not out there.

High rank ppl get bothered explaining rotations, roles and overall stuff on what you should do decision makingwise and more general tips about the game.

Today I was watching some of my games and I realized until gold 3 the impact of general knowledge is like 80% what makes you win or lose.

And then there's the toxicity problem and I have no clue what to do about it

There are other stuff like duo Q and matchfixing messing up the game

Conquest is a very simple gamemode. If you want to improve your gameplay, pretend this

scoring system

exists and follow it. Only do things that accumulate Positive/Invisible Value and avoid things that would result in Negative Value.

Thx, but there're still a lot of misunderstanding on what each class/spec should be doing, specially in lower tiers, I remained silver 3 in my first season because i thought warrior was a team fighter once I found out I should be dueling I almost instantly climbed to gold 2.

Gold 2 and lower most ppl dont know what specs they should v1 or not, they basically dont know their match ups

It's this kind of information I'm talking about.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Khalisto.5780 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Khalisto.5780 said:

@"bladezero.9470" said:What can we do to improve the players? Honestly, is there even any hope for this game mode?

Maybe it's time to move on...

To improve players you have to be at least top 50 and start a pvp school on youtube, not a class focus school, something in the lines what happy no is doing, but it's still too class mechanically focused.

There are ppl looking for information to improve their gameplay but that info is not out there.

High rank ppl get bothered explaining rotations, roles and overall stuff on what you should do decision makingwise and more general tips about the game.

Today I was watching some of my games and I realized until gold 3 the impact of general knowledge is like 80% what makes you win or lose.

And then there's the toxicity problem and I have no clue what to do about it

There are other stuff like duo Q and matchfixing messing up the game

Conquest is a very simple gamemode. If you want to improve your gameplay, pretend this

scoring system

exists and follow it. Only do things that accumulate Positive/Invisible Value and avoid things that would result in Negative Value.

Thx, but there're still a lot of misunderstanding on what each class/spec should be doing, specially in lower tiers, I remained silver 3 in my first season because i thought warrior was a team fighter once I found out I should be dueling I almost instantly climbed to gold 2.

Gold 2 and lower most ppl dont know what specs they should v1 or not, they basically dont know their match ups

It's this kind of information I'm talking about.

Yep. To put it simply:

Team fighters: Firebrand, NecromancersSide noders: Warriors, Engineers, Rangers, ElementalistsRoamers: Thieves, Mesmers, Revenants

Your firebrand and necro should always be in the biggest team fight on the map.Your side noders should be 1v1ing on home/far and rotate to the team fight if they win/lose the node. Then, they should leave the team fight and rotate back to a side node in order to decap/prevent an enemy from decapping.Roamers should +1 fights hoping to get a quick kill, then leaving to do the same elsewhere.

Learning matchups just requires time and effort.

[Euthymias.7984]

@"Khalisto.5780" said:

To improve players you have to be at least top 50 and start a pvp school on youtube, not a class focus school, something in the lines what happy no is doing, but it's still too class mechanically focused. There are ppl looking for information to improve their gameplay but that info is not out there.

The resources exist externally. There are youtube videos that show how to kite on different maps, and people like Jawgeous show AT team fights (and Profession/E.Spec specific POVs as of recent) and explain his observations about the player's decision making and its impact on fights/the match. There are guides like Vallun's on rotation and interpreting win conditions, other streamers who play the professions/specs we see in the meta regularly and produce content or explain what they're doing while playing, and so on. Its just a matter of getting the playerbase itself to do some research on their own and apply what they learn instead of not giving a damn about whether they win or lose or how they're playing.

High rank ppl get bothered explaining rotations, roles and overall stuff on what you should do decision makingwise and more general tips about the game.Again, the resources are already out there. There's only so much you can explain over the course of an actual match when everyone has to make careful, informed decisions to turn the tides or keep the momentum going.

And then there's the toxicity problem and I have no clue what to do about itHonestly, that will probably never change.There are other stuff like duo Q and matchfixing messing up the gameI dont think DuoQ really has as much of a negative impact as people say (I think the low population is a bigger problem since it can cause immensely stacked team comps vs lower end players often) and nothing stops some of the players who are trying to better themselves from finding a partner to work with just as the "pros" do. Match manipulation by other means is something that isnt a simple fix for sure, too.

[FyzE.3472]

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Learning anything just requires time and effort.

FIFY. Also reminds me of this meme

[Traveller.7496]

As someone who only started doing PvP a few days ago (I have done WvW previously) the level of teams in unranked will fluctuate WILDLY. I just had a match where the opposite team farmed us at our spawn, it was almost like fighting a guild roaming group in WvW. It's not that my team had bad players, I've killed some players there as well - the others were just so much better. I wonder if experiences like this will make someone stop playing these game modes permanently?

[Khalisto.5780]

@Traveller.7496 said:As someone who only started doing PvP a few days ago (I have done WvW previously) the level of teams in unranked will fluctuate WILDLY. I just had a match where the opposite team farmed us at our spawn, it was almost like fighting a guild roaming group in WvW. It's not that my team had bad players, I've killed some players there as well - the others were just so much better. I wonder if experiences like this will make someone stop playing these game modes permanently?

sometimes it seems like the unranked still runs the class based matchmaking, when you play a class that you never played the games are super easy at first then they get progressively harder. Then when you swap classes the matchmaking seems to reset and maches are ez again.

[ruller.2084]

@bladezero.9470 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease.

why would anyone who actually wants a skill based game play this mess?

i came back for a few days after almost 2 years gone, didn’t last. pvp is powercreeped skillless spam right now, i literally killed people with just arc divider. this game is a joke, & anyone with even half a brain will realise this & quit.

thats why population is low & players suck, it’s a reflection of the quality of the pvp experience.

I agree completely here, but god kitten... The combat system in GW2 is a million miles better than anything else out there.

Nothing.

Comes.

Close.

Elder Scrolls Online is astronomically better than GW2 combat

[Abraxxus.8971]

Most people only play ranked for the rewards anyway.

[bbop.9706]

@ruller.2084 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease.

why would anyone who actually wants a skill based game play this mess?

i came back for a few days after almost 2 years gone, didn’t last. pvp is powercreeped skillless spam right now, i literally killed people with just arc divider. this game is a joke, & anyone with even half a brain will realise this & quit.

thats why population is low & players suck, it’s a reflection of the quality of the pvp experience.

I agree completely here, but god kitten... The combat system in GW2 is a million miles better than anything else out there.

Nothing.

Comes.

Close.

Elder Scrolls Online is astronomically better than GW2 combat

LMFAO

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Wvw is no better either. Pew pew pew-spam aoe's- pew pew pew-spam aoe's-pew pew pew-spam aoe's that's literally all wvw is now lol

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@bbop.9706 said:

@ruller.2084 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease.

why would anyone who actually wants a skill based game play this mess?

i came back for a few days after almost 2 years gone, didn’t last. pvp is powercreeped skillless spam right now, i literally killed people with just arc divider. this game is a joke, & anyone with even half a brain will realise this & quit.

thats why population is low & players suck, it’s a reflection of the quality of the pvp experience.

I agree completely here, but god kitten... The combat system in GW2 is a million miles better than anything else out there.

Nothing.

Comes.

Close.

Elder Scrolls Online is astronomically better than GW2 combat

LMFAO

ESO does ALOT of things better than gw2, combat isn't one of them.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@ruller.2084 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease.

why would anyone who actually wants a skill based game play this mess?

i came back for a few days after almost 2 years gone, didn’t last. pvp is powercreeped skillless spam right now, i literally killed people with just arc divider. this game is a joke, & anyone with even half a brain will realise this & quit.

thats why population is low & players suck, it’s a reflection of the quality of the pvp experience.

I agree completely here, but god kitten... The combat system in GW2 is a million miles better than anything else out there.

Nothing.

Comes.

Close.

Elder Scrolls Online is astronomically better than GW2 combat

As an ESO player....no....it isn't